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General Chat => Film & TV => Topic started by: Jim_Campbell on 22 August, 2022, 10:25:01 PM

Title: GoT: House of the Dragon
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 22 August, 2022, 10:25:01 PM
NO SPOILERS.

(However, per previous TV threads, spoilers should be expected if you're not up to date with the current episode.)

Not at all sure about that. It's terribly fucking po-faced — it wouldn't have killed them to put a joke in it. The dialogue creaks with faux-Tolkien riffs and the whole thing plays like LotR with added tits and gore.

Also not helped by the fact that, by the end of Ep1 of GoT, you at least liked Ned and Tyrion, whereas the overwhelming impression of this is: what a shower of cunts.

I'll give it another couple of episodes, but it seems to lack the... earthy side-view of the fantasy genre that gave the original its energy.

(Plus: definite mistake losing the map at the start. Incorporating the all-important 'fantasy books have a map at the front' into the GoT title sequence was genius.)
Title: Re: GoT: House of the Dragon
Post by: Richard on 22 August, 2022, 11:38:52 PM
All true, but in the other hand first episodes are almost always difficult. Hoping it gets better next week.
Title: Re: GoT: House of the Dragon
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 23 August, 2022, 07:58:24 AM
Quote from: Richard on 22 August, 2022, 11:38:52 PM
All true, but in the other hand first episodes are almost always difficult. Hoping it gets better next week.

Oh, definitely. The very first episode of GoT was really hard work compared to the easily-digestible nature of most modern TV — it had at least half-a-dozen significant locations, and about two dozen named, speaking characters, plus a significant amount of world/history building to cram in as well.

But, like I say, I at least had some sense of where the moral centre of the story lay, and the writers had the good sense to pivot the episode on a humorous character moment ("You got old"/"You got fat") which served to relieve the seriousness of the episode up to the point (whilst simultaneously telling us a lot about the relationship of two key characters).

I wasn't at all sure about GoT after that first episode, either, so I'm not going to give up on this just yet.
Title: Re: GoT: House of the Dragon
Post by: Dark Jimbo on 23 August, 2022, 08:59:34 AM
The Dance of the Dragons is pretty grim stuff that ends with most characters dead, so... not a lot of levity. I would have expected a lot of the humour to come from Mushroom, the dwarf jester, but it seems that he's been cut from the series.
Title: Re: GoT: House of the Dragon
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 23 August, 2022, 10:02:02 AM
Quote from: Dark Jimbo on 23 August, 2022, 08:59:34 AM
The Dance of the Dragons is pretty grim stuff that ends with most characters dead, so... not a lot of levity.

Ah. Unfortunately, what I liked about GoT was its ability to balance the grimmer stuff against some really good character writing, particularly a few excellent double-acts (Tyrion and Bronn, Tyrion and Varys, Arya and The Hound) to inject some much-needed humour and occasionally take a pop at the pomposity of the series and the genre in general. ("Lots of people name their swords." "Lots of [spoiler]REDACTED[/spoiler]."

I'm not sure I'm up for week after week of unrelenting grimdark, TBH.
Title: Re: GoT: House of the Dragon
Post by: Richmond Clements on 23 August, 2022, 11:10:05 AM
I thought it was good fun, but I can see where you're coming from. I remember laughing a couple of times, but I couldn't actually tell you now what they were - apart from Smith dropping a delightful C bomb.
Talking of which, Matt Smith is just astonishing.
Title: Re: GoT: House of the Dragon
Post by: sheridan on 23 August, 2022, 12:10:38 PM
Quote from: Richmond Clements on 23 August, 2022, 11:10:05 AM
I thought it was good fun, but I can see where you're coming from. I remember laughing a couple of times, but I couldn't actually tell you now what they were - apart from Smith dropping a delightful C bomb.
Talking of which, Matt Smith is just astonishing.

Matt Smith has certainly been hitting the gym.  Don't know how they manage it all, what with (sub-)editing the galaxy's greatest comic 'n' all.
Title: Re: GoT: House of the Dragon
Post by: The Enigmatic Dr X on 24 August, 2022, 05:40:37 PM
Quote from: sheridan on 23 August, 2022, 12:10:38 PM
Quote from: Richmond Clements on 23 August, 2022, 11:10:05 AM
I thought it was good fun, but I can see where you're coming from. I remember laughing a couple of times, but I couldn't actually tell you now what they were - apart from Smith dropping a delightful C bomb.
Talking of which, Matt Smith is just astonishing.

Matt Smith has certainly been hitting the gym.  Don't know how they manage it all, what with (sub-)editing the galaxy's greatest comic 'n' all.

Betelguesan Tech
Title: Re: GoT: House of the Dragon
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 24 August, 2022, 05:46:16 PM

Quote from: Richmond Clements on 23 August, 2022, 11:10:05 AM

...Matt Smith is just astonishing.


I got the same perception shift watching Smith in this as I did watching Joe Pesci in Goodfellas. Guy's got chops.

Title: Re: GoT: House of the Dragon
Post by: Funt Solo on 25 August, 2022, 04:50:15 PM
SPOILER-ISH

Tis in the news: House of the Dragon: Should graphic birth scenes have a trigger warning? (https://www.bbc.com/news/newsbeat-62652449)

It is an insanely harrowing scene of collective [spoiler]murder - "Don't worry, dear - I'm just having you sacrificed on the pyre of my ambitions. Try to relax."[/spoiler]
Title: Re: GoT: House of the Dragon
Post by: Richard on 25 August, 2022, 06:00:32 PM
It's a Game of Thrones spin-off, not Bob the Builder. Nobody said it would all be easy viewing.
Title: Re: GoT: House of the Dragon
Post by: Funt Solo on 25 August, 2022, 06:13:10 PM
Perhaps missing some of the subtleties, there.
Title: Re: GoT: House of the Dragon
Post by: Richard on 25 August, 2022, 06:44:58 PM
To paraphrase Tyrion, "if you want subtleties, you've come to the wrong place."
Title: Re: GoT: House of the Dragon
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 25 August, 2022, 09:04:59 PM

"Trigger warnings"? Seriously? Are we really this fragile?

Title: Re: GoT: House of the Dragon
Post by: Funt Solo on 26 August, 2022, 01:17:55 AM
I'm a bit surprised by the macho, knee-jerk responses. No empathy? Did either of you big, strong men take the trouble to read the linked article?
Title: Re: GoT: House of the Dragon
Post by: Richmond Clements on 26 August, 2022, 07:32:38 AM
Quote from: The Legendary Shark on 25 August, 2022, 09:04:59 PM

"Trigger warnings"? Seriously? Are we really this fragile?

I'm sure anyone watching who has lost a child might be.
Title: Re: GoT: House of the Dragon
Post by: sheridan on 26 August, 2022, 08:44:18 AM
Quote from: The Legendary Shark on 25 August, 2022, 09:04:59 PM
"Trigger warnings"? Seriously? Are we really this fragile?

All you needed to do was read the article.  It featured comments from a woman who had had unplanned emergnecy surgery during childbirth and was deeply affected by the scene.
Title: Re: GoT: House of the Dragon
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 26 August, 2022, 09:30:02 AM

I understand that people who have endured past traumas can be reminded of such by watching a scene in a film, a tv show, or a play, or reading about it in a book - but I don't think that warrants such nannying. It's Game of Thrones. It's gonna' be bloody - what else does anyone need to know?

Title: Re: GoT: House of the Dragon
Post by: Richmond Clements on 26 August, 2022, 09:52:19 AM
Quote from: The Legendary Shark on 26 August, 2022, 09:30:02 AM

I understand that people who have endured past traumas can be reminded of such by watching a scene in a film, a tv show, or a play, or reading about it in a book - but I don't think that warrants such nannying. It's Game of Thrones. It's gonna' be bloody - what else does anyone need to know?

Wow. You're really going to double down on this?
Title: Re: GoT: House of the Dragon
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 26 August, 2022, 12:06:08 PM

Not even sure what I'm supposed to be doubling down on. Drama is supposed to have an emotional impact, that's half its point (the other half being how to deal with it). I don't think the show did anything wrong by not displaying a "trigger warning." However, I don't think it's unreasonable for there to be "trigger warning" websites for people who need them, either. I wouldn't want "trigger warnings" to become mandatory, though, like the "Smoke and die horribly" warnings on tobacco packs. A standard "adult content" advisory note is more than sufficient for general use.

Title: Re: GoT: House of the Dragon
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 26 August, 2022, 12:24:34 PM
Quote from: The Legendary Shark on 26 August, 2022, 12:06:08 PM
Drama is supposed to have an emotional impact, that's half its point

I'm agnostic on trigger warnings in general, but I think there's a distinction between "having an emotional impact" and "connecting someone directly to the memory of a traumatic event they personally experienced".
Title: Re: GoT: House of the Dragon
Post by: sheridan on 26 August, 2022, 12:26:44 PM
Quote from: The Legendary Shark on 26 August, 2022, 12:06:08 PMDrama is supposed to have an emotional impact, that's half its point (the other half being how to deal with it).

Some would say that drama should have an element of entertainment as well...

QuoteI wouldn't want "trigger warnings" to become mandatory, though, like the "Smoke and die horribly" warnings on tobacco packs.

Can't decide if that's a straw man falacy, slippery slope falacy or false equivalence falacy...

QuoteA standard "adult content" advisory note is more than sufficient for general use.

No advisories are needed for general use, that's the point - it's people who have PTSD (for example) who need to know what they're about to experience, not those who aren't affected.  That's like a white middle class person whose education was paid for by their family and were given the first job in their career by one of their parent's friends saying that they can't see what the problem is when black working class kids complain that they can't get in to higher paid jobs.  Or are you suggesting that if a woman had a traumatic birth that the should stick to children's TV to avoid any kind of adult content for the rest of their life?
Title: Re: GoT: House of the Dragon
Post by: Definitely Not Mister Pops on 26 August, 2022, 02:01:37 PM
Quote from: Funt Solo on 25 August, 2022, 04:50:15 PM

Tis in the news: House of the Dragon: Should graphic birth scenes have a trigger warning? (https://www.bbc.com/news/newsbeat-62652449)


My only problem with that headline is that it poses a yes/no question, and when a headline does that it's because the answer is no. It's awful click baity.

I like trigger warnings. A big long list of them means the attached media is probably pretty cool and you might even get to see boobs. They're a bit like those old stickers from the 90's:

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/01/Parental_Advisory_Explicit_Lyrics_%281990_-_2001%29.svg/440px-Parental_Advisory_Explicit_Lyrics_%281990_-_2001%29.svg.png)

Most of the albums I bought as a teenager had one of those slapped on them.

I can't comment on the scene in question here, as I haven't managed to work up the enthusiasm to watch it. I'm not worried about spoilers because no matter what happens in this show, ultimately the last Targaryen dies when she gets stabbed by her charismaless human dildo of a nephew, then a emo kid wizard becomes king because Peter Dinklage delivers a terribly written speech really well.
Title: Re: GoT: House of the Dragon
Post by: Funt Solo on 26 August, 2022, 02:31:10 PM
Reading: I'm not opening that article or watching the show but here's my opinion anyway, based on a generalization, a false equivalence that has nothing to do with trauma-triggers and a distraction that lets me vent about my three-year old disappointment with a different show.

Very convincing.
Title: Re: GoT: House of the Dragon
Post by: Definitely Not Mister Pops on 26 August, 2022, 02:56:54 PM
Well excuse me very much. I wasn't really trying to convince anyone of anything, just talking shite as is my wont. I could have saved myself some bother and not typed that out.

You could have saved yourself a lot of typing too with a simple "fuck off".

Anyway, off I fuck
Title: Re: GoT: House of the Dragon
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 26 August, 2022, 02:58:49 PM

Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 26 August, 2022, 12:24:34 PM
Quote from: The Legendary Shark on 26 August, 2022, 12:06:08 PM
Drama is supposed to have an emotional impact, that's half its point

I'm agnostic on trigger warnings in general, but I think there's a distinction between "having an emotional impact" and "connecting someone directly to the memory of a traumatic event they personally experienced".

But surely there's no safeguard against the latter? I've had several heart attacks, and they're pretty traumatic events, but I don't expect media to contain a warning if one of the characters is going to have a heart attack. The nature of the show I'm watching should be enough to alert me to the possibility of dramatised heart attacks.

Now, sure, experiencing a heart attack and experiencing an emergency childbirth aren't in the same court, but they are at least in the same sports center - along with traffic accidents and getting shot. I can imagine veterans kept awake for many long nights after spending an evening listening to Homer telling his tales of battle. Drama will always be reliant on trauma so the risk of connecting members of the audience directly to their own personal traumas is always going to be there. I don't see how it's possible to guard against that without software-level disclaimers popping up in front of every potentially triggering film, tv show, song or novel.

I'm all for people protecting themselves and helping each other do so. I'm sure I'm not alone in having tried to warn people with specific traumas from watching certain things, that they might find "X" a bit much. Some corporate or government trigger protection system could easily be set up whereby subscribers will have their media selections censored to individual tastes. But it should be voluntary, not imposed.

The childbirth scene was fairly graphic and I can see how it might rekindle old trauma, but a scene I thought was infinitely more affecting was the baby and Death scene from The Sandman. I can imagine that scene triggering countless less graphic traumas in a great many more people and, although I sympathise, I don't think it's a reason to either cut the scene or require a pre-viewing specific trigger warning.

I think we have to accept that drama needs trauma, and that dramatised trauma can be uncomfortable, but discomfort is not a good enough reason to cut the baby and Death scene, or the childbirth scene - and I don't think anyone here is suggesting that. People just need access to the tools to protect themselves, if they need it and the rest of us will take our chances.
Title: Re: GoT: House of the Dragon
Post by: Funt Solo on 26 August, 2022, 03:19:49 PM
Quote from: Mister Pops on 26 August, 2022, 02:56:54 PM
Well excuse me very much. I wasn't really trying to convince anyone of anything, just talking shite as is my wont. I could have saved myself some bother and not typed that out.

You could have saved yourself a lot of typing too with a simple "fuck off".

Anyway, off I fuck

Sorry if you found my response too blunt - I was triggered (but, y'know, not in a trauma-related way) by your (self-described) shit-post. I don't think my saying "fuck off" (apart from it just being bluntly abusive) would've got across what I was trying to convey, though*.

Philosophy question: if a shit-post is just another label for a troll (verb), then should shit-posters be taken aback when people respond?

*Like, it really seemed as if you were saying that the Parental Advisory stickers (caused by Tipper Gore freaking out about her daughter singing Darling Nikki - a moral panic response) were the equivalent of trigger warnings (a structure that attempts to help trauma-sufferers avoid trauma triggers). Is it really bad that I pointed out what seemed like your mistake, there?
Title: Re: GoT: House of the Dragon
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 26 August, 2022, 03:24:01 PM
Well, this thread is just going swimmingly, isn't it?
Title: Re: GoT: House of the Dragon
Post by: Funt Solo on 26 August, 2022, 03:30:37 PM
When you play the Game of Forums...
Title: Re: GoT: House of the Dragon
Post by: sheridan on 26 August, 2022, 04:03:45 PM
So... back to talking about the actual episode - as it's a spin-off from GoT I think it's fair to compare it (to the early series of GoT, anyway).  It's certainly matching the violence and nudity of the former series, but appears to be lacking the humour that also characterised it.  I'm really hoping this changes in future weeks.
Title: Re: GoT: House of the Dragon
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 26 August, 2022, 04:07:14 PM

Marry me, Jim. Let's run away and have adventures together.
Title: Re: GoT: House of the Dragon
Post by: Proudhuff on 26 August, 2022, 04:09:29 PM
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 22 August, 2022, 10:25:01 PM

Not at all sure about that. It's terribly fucking po-faced — it wouldn't have killed them to put a joke in it. The dialogue creaks with faux-Tolkien riffs and the whole thing plays like LotR with added tits and gore.


Thanks Jim, I will avoid that. Doesn't sound like my cuppa at all.
Title: Re: GoT: House of the Dragon
Post by: Definitely Not Mister Pops on 26 August, 2022, 04:18:40 PM
Quote from: Funt Solo on 26 August, 2022, 03:19:49 PM
Quote from: Mister Pops on 26 August, 2022, 02:56:54 PM
Well excuse me very much. I wasn't really trying to convince anyone of anything, just talking shite as is my wont. I could have saved myself some bother and not typed that out.

You could have saved yourself a lot of typing too with a simple "fuck off".

Anyway, off I fuck

Sorry if you found my response too blunt - I was triggered (but, y'know, not in a trauma-related way) by your (self-described) shit-post. I don't think my saying "fuck off" (apart from it just being bluntly abusive) would've got across what I was trying to convey, though*.

Philosophy question: if a shit-post is just another label for a troll (verb), then should shit-posters be taken aback when people respond?

*Like, it really seemed as if you were saying that the Parental Advisory stickers (caused by Tipper Gore freaking out about her daughter singing Darling Nikki - a moral panic response) were the equivalent of trigger warnings (a structure that attempts to help trauma-sufferers avoid trauma triggers). Is it really bad that I pointed out what seemed like your mistake, there?

WARNING! The following post may contain poorly thought out nonsense!




I only meant to compare them as content warnings that I take as signposts to interesting media. I didn't take the time to express that to the fullest of my eloquence because it was the arse end of my lunch break. I don't think I expressed my self so clumsily that I equated serious trauma to the threat of potty mouthed rapping and Dee Dee Schneider's fabulous hair and makeup. That would be a very silly thing to say. Even by my standards.

Po-faced seems apt. At least from the trailers. Same goes for that new lotr of the rings show.

I'm probably gonna wait until there's a few more episodes and then binge the thing if there's a good buzz about it.
Title: Re: GoT: House of the Dragon
Post by: Rara Avis on 28 August, 2022, 10:32:36 AM
I was heavily invested in GoT and when I heard about this I found it very hard to get excited because I was so disappointed with how that ended. I watched the trailers for this but mostly avoided the hype and watched it more for nostalgia and boredom than anything else.

I would like to cautiously admit that it's off to a good start. I think the first episode has done an ok job of setting the scene. We know who the main characters are and their motivations - so far so good. It seems back to the good old dates of serious dramatic GoT which I like. The odd joke here and there can have it's place but I wouldn't like to see a return of the end of witty banter in favour of humour for humours sake (look what that did to Tyrion's character).

However it's hard to get invested having been burned once so to speak so am willing to wait and see how to turns out.

Only criticism so far is that those wigs are terribly terribly distracting - they're just not very good.

Re: trigger warnings. Well they can also be a spoiler of sorts so I can understand why the producers would not want to outline every single thing that might upset people. I was in no way prepared for that scene so it was quite shocking but no more than Ned getting his head cut off or the Red Wedding. I would have thought it was understood that any episode of a GoT series could include scenes that involved sex, sexual violence, graphic violence, murder, mutilation, etc.
Title: Re: GoT: House of the Dragon
Post by: Richmond Clements on 30 August, 2022, 09:39:43 AM
I really enjoyed the second episode. I totally get the lack of humour complaint, although there were a couple of ironic chuckles in there.
The dragons look awesome and it was nice to see a couple of plot points start to tease out.
Title: Re: GoT: House of the Dragon
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 30 August, 2022, 10:30:18 AM
Quote from: Richmond Clements on 30 August, 2022, 09:39:43 AM
I really enjoyed the second episode. I totally get the lack of humour complaint, although there were a couple of ironic chuckles in there.

Yes, I did, too.

(Although, I'm slightly bemused that they decided to do 'their' version of the title sequence without, apparently, understanding that the original titles told the audience useful stuff.)
Title: Re: GoT: House of the Dragon
Post by: sheridan on 30 August, 2022, 12:26:19 PM
Quote from: Rara Avis on 28 August, 2022, 10:32:36 AM
Re: trigger warnings. Well they can also be a spoiler of sorts so I can understand why the producers would not want to outline every single thing that might upset people. I was in no way prepared for that scene so it was quite shocking but no more than Ned getting his head cut off or the Red Wedding. I would have thought it was understood that any episode of a GoT series could include scenes that involved sex, sexual violence, graphic violence, murder, mutilation, etc.


I didn't find it particularly shocking either (no more than the other examples you gave) - only thing about that is that none of those things have ever happened to me so there's no logical reason I'd be triggered by them.  There's a very real chance that significant numbers of people watching a programme will have experienced difficulties during childbirth.


Perhaps we need a little warning that if you're triggered by trigger warnings then look away for the next fifteen seconds?
Title: Re: GoT: House of the Dragon
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 30 August, 2022, 12:57:55 PM
Quote from: sheridan on 30 August, 2022, 12:26:19 PM
Perhaps we need a little warning that if you're triggered by trigger warnings then look away for the next fifteen seconds?

Most streaming services have a "Skip Intro" and "Skip Recap" option. I can't imagine it would be horrendously difficult to put a plain screen right at the start with the words "Content Warning Follows" then enough of a pause to hit "Skip" before the actual warnings start to appear (given that the warnings themselves could be spoilery).
Title: Re: GoT: House of the Dragon
Post by: Richmond Clements on 06 September, 2022, 10:59:57 AM
Well, I'm still watching!
Some nice court intrigue and hot dragon action in ep 3. 
Title: Re: GoT: House of the Dragon
Post by: Funt Solo on 06 September, 2022, 03:58:51 PM
I am SPOILERING the fuck out of the third episode:

Episode #3 was very enjoyable - although it had a tricky third act. The main problem with the battle scene at the end was that it had poor storytelling (re. whether or not the help from King's Landing had just been sunk or was still on its way) and pretty crappy logic. It was fun, exciting, dramatic, well-filmed and had a stonking great dragon breathing fire from the sky - which is not something you often get to see depicted so realistically on film, but no logic. That tactic was shit, having no dragon lookouts was shit, having nobody on the big high cliff noticing the army land was shit. (Having the crab king be a weird, silent villain was probably cheaper than giving him lines.) No logic. Fun to watch. Odd, though, to realize that it wasn't really about the crab-dude, but about the lengths that Matt Smith will go to not to accept aid from his brother.

Much more compelling was the symbolism of the aging, slightly alcoholic King being given a great stag (but not the promised blessing of the white stag) to murder, then botching it. He is literally murdering the natural world for no reason. Meanwhile, Rhaenyra kills a boar in self defence then witnesses the mythical white stag - as if she really is being chosen by the land to be the future Queen. Cool!
Title: Re: GoT: House of the Dragon
Post by: sheridan on 06 September, 2022, 04:10:56 PM
Quote from: Funt Solo on 06 September, 2022, 03:58:51 PM
I am SPOILERING the fuck out of the third episode:

Much more compelling was the symbolism of the aging, slightly alcoholic King being given a great stag (but not the promised blessing of the white stag) to murder, then botching it. He is literally murdering the natural world for no reason. Meanwhile, Rhaenyra kills a boar in self defence then witnesses the mythical white stag - as if she really is being chosen by the land to be the future Queen. Cool!

Plus I couldn't be the only person detecting parallels from early GoT?
Title: Re: GoT: House of the Dragon
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 06 September, 2022, 04:47:12 PM
Quote from: sheridan on 06 September, 2022, 04:10:56 PM
Plus I couldn't be the only person detecting parallels from early GoT?

Yes... when Slightly Creepy Hand makes some portentous remark about the proposed hunt bringing good news, I was wondering whether it would be the same sort of good news Cersei Lannister (Baratheon) got after her drunken husband went hunting in the King's Wood.

I'm warming to this, BTW. And Matt Smith is properly great.
Title: Re: GoT: House of the Dragon
Post by: Tiplodocus on 06 September, 2022, 11:54:32 PM
Yeah. Was pretty disappointed in the first episode but two and three have been good. I'm warming to Consadine's wet King too.

I'm not too bothered by "Why didn't they have lookouts?" type stuff. For dramatic purposes, it's more fun to show it as they did. The alternative is to drag it out by showing that the Crabfeeder had lookouts. But Daemon was clever and we have a scene of those lookouts being overpowered silently by some of his troops. Some films (heist movies) like to do this, some films don't.
Title: Re: GoT: House of the Dragon
Post by: Rara Avis on 07 September, 2022, 07:15:00 AM
Quote from: Funt Solo on 06 September, 2022, 03:58:51 PM
I am SPOILERING the fuck out of the third episode:
Much more compelling was the symbolism of the aging, slightly alcoholic King being given a great stag (but not the promised blessing of the white stag) to murder, then botching it. He is literally murdering the natural world for no reason. Meanwhile, Rhaenyra kills a boar in self defence then witnesses the mythical white stag - as if she really is being chosen by the land to be the future Queen. Cool!

I'm ok with a little poetic license regarding lookouts and what not as long as it doesn't get too OTT ("they kinda forgot about Euron's fleet" etc)

Rhaenyra has help killing her boar too - Ser Cristan almost stabs her in the face doing it actually.

I saw it more as imagery of their roles - Rhaenyra is free nothing, holding her down or back but Viserys is caught and held by all the politicking of the various houses. By trying to please everyone he's pleasing no one. Anyone else notice he's lost two fingers since then last episode?
Title: Re: GoT: House of the Dragon
Post by: sheridan on 07 September, 2022, 08:26:42 AM
Quote from: Rara Avis on 07 September, 2022, 07:15:00 AM
Anyone else notice he's lost two fingers since then last episode?

Yep (https://twitter.com/SarahBKnowsBest/status/1566614332661710851) (probably [spoiler]greyscale[/spoiler]?)
Title: Re: GoT: House of the Dragon
Post by: Funt Solo on 07 September, 2022, 06:51:17 PM
Quote from: Tiplodocus on 06 September, 2022, 11:54:32 PM
I'm not too bothered by "Why didn't they have lookouts?" type stuff. For dramatic purposes, it's more fun to show it as they did. The alternative is to drag it out by showing that the Crabfeeder had lookouts. But Daemon was clever and we have a scene of those lookouts being overpowered silently by some of his troops. Some films (heist movies) like to do this, some films don't.

I see what you mean - but I'm not arguing that all the heroes should be shown going to the loo. It's that once the number of "wait a minute that doesn't make sense" bits add up you eventually reach the realms of it getting in the way of the storytelling.

Like, I'm sure I could find some things in the Battle of the Bastards to complain about, but I didn't need to, because overall it made *enough* sense and was dramatically engaging. I found that Daemon's lone distraction attack took me out of the drama with the amount of suspension of disbelief it was asking of me.

Personal taste, of course - but by the time I'm having to re-write it in my head to make sense, I'm no longer fully engaged in the drama.
Title: Re: GoT: House of the Dragon
Post by: Rara Avis on 07 September, 2022, 08:11:36 PM
Quote from: sheridan on 07 September, 2022, 08:26:42 AM
Yep (https://twitter.com/SarahBKnowsBest/status/1566614332661710851) (probably [spoiler]greyscale[/spoiler]?)

No I don't think so; [spoiler]it's meant to be a sign that the chair is rejecting him for being for being weak. It started out as a little cut when he sent Daemon off and it's been two years and he's lost two fingers. Not a good omen for our Vis.[/spoiler]
Title: Re: GoT: House of the Dragon
Post by: Rara Avis on 07 September, 2022, 08:18:27 PM
Quote from: Funt Solo on 07 September, 2022, 06:51:17 PM
I see what you mean - but I'm not arguing that all the heroes should be shown going to the loo. It's that once the number of "wait a minute that doesn't make sense" bits add up you eventually reach the realms of it getting in the way of the storytelling.

This is a major bugbear for me. Less is sometimes more. If we had seen the main character have one or even two well choreographed exhausting fights it would be much better than them easily despatching 20 foes who conveniently wait their turn.

Might happen more in the next episode but I really hope they're not going to shoehorn the events of GoT into the Hot D story. We've already had it a bit when Vis mentions the song of fire and ice which was enough for me. Season 8 of GoT was so unpopular they wold do well to keep as much distance from it as they can.


Title: Re: GoT: House of the Dragon
Post by: Funt Solo on 07 September, 2022, 10:37:27 PM
Of a note I was more impressed by: the Crab King had a certain gait. When we see the reverse shot of Daemon walking out of the caves - his hair is matted to his head and he's wounded, and his gait is mirroring that of the Crab King - so in that moment, I wasn't sure who it was - whether Daemon had been successful in the caves or had lost. It wasn't until we get the frontal shot later, and see that he's dragging the remains of his foe along behind him, that I fully realized what had happened.

I assume they did this on purpose and it wasn't just me not being able to figure out who was who. The main message, clearly, was that he was willing to sacrifice everything rather than be seen to need bailed out by his big brother. He's also fond of Rhaenyra, so when they inevitably come to a point of conflict over who gets to sit in the pointy chair, it'll be interesting to find out how that plays out.
Title: Re: GoT: House of the Dragon
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 08 September, 2022, 03:39:14 AM

An incestuous wedding, maybe?

Title: Re: GoT: House of the Dragon
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 12 September, 2022, 07:17:33 PM

Well, there's the incest...

Title: Re: GoT: House of the Dragon
Post by: Tiplodocus on 13 September, 2022, 08:56:10 AM
Matt Smith clearly relished the chance to play the handsome, charming, hedonist involved in the machinations about who sits on the throne among a dysfunctional family of schemers, adulterers, murderers, in-breds and nonces.

But enough about THE CROWN, let's get back to HOUSE OF DRAGON.
Title: Re: GoT: House of the Dragon
Post by: Funt Solo on 13 September, 2022, 06:50:55 PM
Quote from: Tiplodocus on 13 September, 2022, 08:56:10 AM
...nonces.

I was just reading that someone got arrested for shouting *something* at Prince Andrew in the street during the recent festival of Mourn or Be Jailed, Peasants that Britain is currently enjoying. I also read that he was being given responsibility over his mum's corgis. A safe pair of hands, there, I'm sure.
Title: Re: GoT: House of the Dragon
Post by: sheridan on 13 September, 2022, 06:59:10 PM
Quote from: Funt Solo on 13 September, 2022, 06:50:55 PM
Quote from: Tiplodocus on 13 September, 2022, 08:56:10 AM
...nonces.

I was just reading that someone got arrested for shouting *something* at Prince Andrew in the street during the recent festival of Mourn or Be Jailed, Peasants that Britain is currently enjoying. I also read that he was being given responsibility over his mum's corgis. A safe pair of hands, there, I'm sure.

I noticed that the reporting mysterious missed out what the shouting was about, but I can't imagine it was about anything other than child abuse or statutory rape.  Corgis will make a change from orgies.
Title: Re: GoT: House of the Dragon
Post by: Funt Solo on 13 September, 2022, 07:26:08 PM
I keep finding Newsthump thinking the same things as me: Prince Andrew's new corgis made to sign non-disclosure agreements (https://newsthump.com/2022/09/13/prince-andrews-new-corgis-made-to-sign-non-disclosure-agreements/)

Uhm ... dragons.
Title: Re: GoT: House of the Dragon
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 13 September, 2022, 07:43:29 PM

#NotMyKing.

Title: Re: GoT: House of the Dragon
Post by: sheridan on 13 September, 2022, 11:39:10 PM
Quote from: sheridan on 13 September, 2022, 06:59:10 PM
Quote from: Funt Solo on 13 September, 2022, 06:50:55 PM
Quote from: Tiplodocus on 13 September, 2022, 08:56:10 AM
...nonces.

I was just reading that someone got arrested for shouting *something* at Prince Andrew in the street during the recent festival of Mourn or Be Jailed, Peasants that Britain is currently enjoying. I also read that he was being given responsibility over his mum's corgis. A safe pair of hands, there, I'm sure.

I noticed that the reporting mysterious missed out what the shouting was about, but I can't imagine it was about anything other than child abuse or statutory rape.  Corgis will make a change from orgies.

"Andrew, you're a dirty old man" apparently.
Title: Re: GoT: House of the Dragon
Post by: Definitely Not Mister Pops on 22 September, 2022, 12:22:27 AM
Having little interest in Monday's ostentatious Granny Planting Ceremony, I thought I would get caught up with this show.

It doesn't quite have the magic of its predecessor*, neither literally nor figuratively. If not for the dragonses, you would be forgiven for thinking this is an alternative history show, rather than a fantasy one. If not for Dr Who I would say there are no strong characters.

It also takes a couple of episodes to get over the inter-episode-time-skip whiplash, although I appreciate the nod/wink to the camera lines that lampshade them.

Don't get me wrong, it's good TV, but I really didn't get invested until the latest episode. It may be streaming fatigue from the pandemic, but a lot of shows from streaming services seem like movie trilogies split into ~a dozen episodes, but the first movie and a half is all set up, so nothing happens until episode ~5/6. I'm having the same problem with that LOTR the Rings show, but there's no Dr Who in that to spice it up.





*The show, not the monarch
Title: Re: GoT: House of the Dragon
Post by: Richmond Clements on 28 September, 2022, 11:17:34 AM
Am I the only one still watching? That latest episode was superb. I wasn't sure that the time jump would work, but it was quite brilliant.
Title: Re: GoT: House of the Dragon
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 28 September, 2022, 12:11:51 PM

Got the latest episode queued up for tonight. I've been enjoying it very much so far.

Title: Re: GoT: House of the Dragon
Post by: Tiplodocus on 28 September, 2022, 11:13:56 PM
Quote from: Richmond Clements on 28 September, 2022, 11:17:34 AM
Am I the only one still watching? That latest episode was superb. I wasn't sure that the time jump would work, but it was quite brilliant.

Annoyingly our Now TV booster accidentally purchased has run out and I don't fancy paying another £15 per month on top of Netflix, Prime and Disney. YouTube thumbnails already spoiling it so I will have to make sure not to hover near anything vaguely GOT related until they disappear
Title: Re: GoT: House of the Dragon
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 03 October, 2022, 08:26:21 PM
Ehhh. I think I'm done with this. Leaving aside the technical issues this week (much of the dialogue in the early parts was inaudible, and the tweak-the-colour-grading-and-pretend-we-shot-at-night stuff during a big chunk of the middle section made it almost impossible to identify characters beyond "it is/isn't one of the ones with white hair")... I just don't care which of this shower of unlovable bastards successfully fucks over whichever other unlovable bastards.
Title: Re: GoT: House of the Dragon
Post by: Funt Solo on 03 October, 2022, 10:29:12 PM
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 03 October, 2022, 08:26:21 PM
I just don't care which of this shower of unlovable bastards successfully fucks over whichever other unlovable bastards.

That's a really good point regarding this show. The King was off my Xmas card list in the first episode, then the daughter (not a good sign that I'm not even recalling names) seemed like a victim but now seems like a deliberate cad, the King's brother is evil, the Queen is Machiavellian, the tongue-cutter set fire to his own family as a Littlefinger crossed with Bolton sicko power play.

So, yes, who are we rooting for? And why don't I know anyone's name? Is that just me?

The OG books and series had loveable shits and rooting for 'em victims that you could get behind or loathe on an episode by episode basis. So, it looks like the LOTR series is more LOTR than this is anything like GoT.
Title: Re: GoT: House of the Dragon
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 03 October, 2022, 11:10:48 PM
Quote from: Funt Solo on 03 October, 2022, 10:29:12 PM
So, yes, who are we rooting for?

I would refer the honourable gentleman back to my comment in the very first post on this thread:

QuoteAlso not helped by the fact that, by the end of Ep1 of GoT, you at least liked Ned and Tyrion, whereas the overwhelming impression of this is: what a shower of cunts.

I kind of hoped it would find its way to some kind of... I want to say "moral centre" but "moral" isn't the right word with GRRM. I'm not saying that a work of fiction has to have moral characters at its core, but if you want to have amoral fuckers at the core of your story, then look to Dangerous Liaisons. Are your characters as thrillingly bad as those...? If your answer is, "No, but look how cool our CGI dragons are!" then I think we might be close to the nub of the problem...
Title: Re: GoT: House of the Dragon
Post by: Richard on 03 October, 2022, 11:29:40 PM
I couldn't hear anything at the start either, and I haven't learned anyone's name except Daemon's, and that's only because it sounds like demon and it's Matt Smith.

But I got into this episode from the fight between the children and the ensuing showdown in the throne room. That was pretty exciting, and I was rooting for the kid who [spoiler]rode the dragon and then lost an eye[/spoiler], because he was being bullied by the other children last week and this week he stood up for himself. I've a feeling he's going to become a significant character in the next three episodes.

Anyway I've seen 70% of it now, so I'm going to see it through.
Title: Re: GoT: House of the Dragon
Post by: Rara Avis on 08 October, 2022, 01:40:29 PM
I'm loving it more each episode and I'm not really rooting for anyone - they are all terrible but part of the appeal to me is this exploration of the ambiguity and that it's all grey areas. Rhaenaera is the lawful heir but she's dreadful and while Alicent is right she's also awful too.
Title: Re: GoT: House of the Dragon
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 10 October, 2022, 10:59:24 PM
Hfff. My wife prevailed upon me to continue... I mean, it's all very handsome (when you can actually see what's going on) but I just don't understand the writing. Are we supposed to root for Rhaenerys (sp?) when we have literally no reason to?

As near as I can figure out, the 'bitch' queen we're all supposed to hate (?) is about the only character who hasn't straight up murdered someone or fucked their uncle.

I don't mind amoral characters trying to get the upper hand over one another (I mean, S2 of Black Sails, which is literally wall-to-wall that, is one of my favourite bits of TV) but, for God's sake, I need to like some of them.
Title: Re: GoT: House of the Dragon
Post by: Tiplodocus on 10 October, 2022, 11:56:36 PM
Maybe it's all a ploy so everyone can burst into singing "Shut your fucking mouth, Uncle Fucker" from South Park The Movie?
Title: Re: GoT: House of the Dragon
Post by: Funt Solo on 11 October, 2022, 05:32:11 AM
Should've done a Cthulhu Mythos crossover called House of the Dagon.
Title: Re: GoT: House of the Dragon
Post by: Barrington Boots on 11 October, 2022, 09:45:38 AM
I would have watched that.
Title: Re: GoT: House of the Dragon
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 11 October, 2022, 10:03:12 AM
Quote from: Tiplodocus on 10 October, 2022, 11:56:36 PM
Maybe it's all a ploy so everyone can burst into singing "Shut your fucking mouth, Uncle Fucker" from South Park The Movie?

I'll confess that this was playing in my head for a large part of last week's episode.
Title: Re: GoT: House of the Dragon
Post by: Definitely Not Mister Pops on 11 October, 2022, 11:52:05 AM
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 10 October, 2022, 10:59:24 PM

As near as I can figure out, the 'bitch' queen we're all supposed to hate (?) is about the only character who hasn't straight up murdered someone or fucked their uncle.


I'm not sure about that. She had a bit of a "Will no one rid me of this troublesome priest hand of the king?" moment with cripplefinger.

Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 10 October, 2022, 10:59:24 PM
....I need to like some of them.

Or at least enjoy hating them, like Joffrey Baratheon. The time jumps don't help, the characters have understandably changed and developed in between, but we don't go on the journey with them, we just see the major landmarks. Changing the cast doesn't help either, but I suppose it makes all the grooming less obvious.

The king has made some godawful decisions throughout his reign, but Paddy Cosidine gas been sooo good I can at least sympathise with why he made them.
Title: Re: GoT: House of the Dragon
Post by: Funt Solo on 12 October, 2022, 02:29:23 AM
I've not drummed up the energy to watch the most recent episode, which I suppose speaks volumes.

I was thinking about it, and the first glaring issue I had with the series was The Crabfeeder. No backstory, no personality, no reason - just a super-villain with a super-villain's name, feeding captors to crabs in a super-villainous way. Like all the best super-villains, he's all twisted and deformed and has a costume - but all his minions dress the same, and mindlessly go up against the hero bit by bit until they're all dead and it's just the super-villain left.

In OG GoT, you certainly had mean bastards (Ramsey Bolton, come on down), but they were believable in the milieu.

---

I think the show's failing (me) because they've made a show about a history book, rather than a show about a story book (based on some history).
Title: Re: GoT: House of the Dragon
Post by: Rara Avis on 13 October, 2022, 07:46:48 PM
If I recall correctly there is a resurgence of the Triarchy at some stage later in the story that might be important. They are probably focusing on such a dramatic character so that later in the show the audience will still remember them. The bit in the book about Crabfeeder is just one line so they didn't have much to go with.

Incredible episode this week, my god but Paddy Considine is INCREDIBLE in the role of Viserys.

There's an official HOTD podcast and they interview him this week. Well worth a listen.

@ Jim, I don't think we are meant to root for any of them but I'm loving it.
Title: Re: GoT: House of the Dragon
Post by: Definitely Not Mister Pops on 13 October, 2022, 08:50:45 PM
Quote from: Rara Avis on 13 October, 2022, 07:46:48 PM

... Paddy Considine is INCREDIBLE in the role of Viserys.


This cannot be overstated, an absolutely amazing performance this week. Really struck a chord with my experiences of thran elderly relatives in palliative care.
Title: Re: GoT: House of the Dragon
Post by: Rara Avis on 14 October, 2022, 08:00:59 AM
Agreed.

*That* scene was so powerful, I was genuinely teary eyed watching it.
Title: Re: GoT: House of the Dragon
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 17 October, 2022, 09:00:02 PM

Another good episode, I thought. Reminding me a bit of I Clavdivs - which is high praise from me.

Title: Re: GoT: House of the Dragon
Post by: Definitely Not Mister Pops on 17 October, 2022, 11:31:06 PM
Quote from: The Legendary Shark on 17 October, 2022, 09:00:02 PM

Another good episode, I thought. Reminding me a bit of I Clavdivs - which is high praise from me.

The veteran end of the cast really seem determined to steal the show back from Matt Smith in the last couple of episodes.
Title: Re: GoT: House of the Dragon
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 18 October, 2022, 06:50:20 AM
Yeah. OK, I thought that was a really good episode (not withstanding a brief period of "I can't see what the fuck is going on" darkness near the start).
Title: Re: GoT: House of the Dragon
Post by: judgeurko on 19 October, 2022, 10:50:41 AM
sleazy show.
Title: Re: GoT: House of the Dragon
Post by: Rara Avis on 27 October, 2022, 06:13:38 PM
Well that's that until 2024.

I have to admit that although it's flawed I really enjoyed it and look forward to Season 2.