CAN YOU BE AN AMBASSADOR FOR 2000AD?

[SmallBlueThing]

No its not Richmond, it's acceptable modern parlance. Unless it's also unacceptable and 'rude' to dismiss any other media text- a film for example- as 'shit' without explaining why you didnt like it, but that you're probably not the intended audience, it's probably okay for people who like that sort of thing, people worked hard at it and they should be applauded for their efforts, and here are ten ways it could have been better, etc etc. No one does that. I certainly dont do that, certainly not when asked my opinion about something and not expected to offer a discourse in return.

The internet isnt a media studies debating society, its a place where anyone at all can offer their opinions, however ill-informed. I'd much rather it stay that way, and not be policed by people who demand that each and every text out there be seen as the marvellous cumulative effort that it is.

Im not being purposely combative here Richmond, but consumers of a product, such as 2000AD, have a right to bitch and moan if they want to. I may not share their grievances, but i would never take away their right to express them in whatever way they are able.

SBT

[Richmond Clements]

No its not Richmond, it's acceptable modern parlance. Unless it's also unacceptable and 'rude' to dismiss any other media text- a film for example- as 'shit' without explaining why you didnt like it, but that you're probably not the intended audience

Something is NOT 'shit' because you are not the intended audience. And of course it is also unacceptable to dismiss a film- or any other form of Art- as 'shit'.

As an 'artist' I would find it astonishingly rude if someone dismissed my work as 'shit'.
If they say 'I did not like it and this is why...' then that is fine. I may not like it or even agree. But being so dismissive is rude.

[TordelBack]

Steev, I think X-Factor is shit.  But I don't go X-Factor forums and say it.  That's the rude bit.

EDIT:  The show or the whole genre, not the comic.  Bad choice of example.

[Colin YNWA]

Always worth remembering as well that the vast majority of the time this forum is one of the most constructive, creative and pleasant places I've seen on the Internet. That's not to excuse stuff when it goes wrong or people are rude but to make sure we keep a perspective when things do go a bit wonky of how much good stuff is achieved here.

[SmallBlueThing]

Tordleback- very bad example! the x factor, as part of its format, celebrates its own shit acts, and simon cowell has become as popular as he is entirely due to his cutting, not constructive, criticism.

2000AD is, like the x factor, an anthology of very different 'acts'. And like the x factor, the audience is going to have its favourites and those they hate. X factor conversations are basically ENTIRELY people saying part of the show is shit!

Im just very conscious that poor old kevlev's original post could be (misconstrued?) to mean 'keep your criticisms to yourself, positivity only on this board!'. Which i very much doubt is actually what he meant.

And however much the more media-aware amongst us may demand each and every criticism be backed-up and looked at from eight different viewpoints, you will never stop the initial 'great/ shit/ meh' response.

For example, as i type this, my service users are watching Twilight.
It's complete shit.
SBT

[COMMANDO FORCES]

I promote Dredd and 2000AD to all the non believers in my local comic shop. On a normal Thursday I spend a couple of hours in there and everytime a person buys something I ask why they seem to have not purchased 2000AD or the Meg. Once I have heard their answer and after they wake up in the ambulance I tell them to buy it, bastards  
By the way here I am in said comic shop with my weapon of choice and wearing my yellow duster!



As Kev implied in his post, you don't have to beat people up but what's wrong with talking about it with say, DC & Marvel fans and informing them of where a lot of their favourite artists and writers came from. It amazes me when I mention 2000AD in the shop all the youngsters seem to have never heard of it but have heard of Dredd, Alpha, Slaine, etc...
Let's not rip Kev to pieces as he's just as big a fan as the rest of us.

P.S. When I chat about the prog, I always mention if some stories don't do it for me and I always explain why. For instance, if a character is brought back for a series of untold stories that took place before he died. Well there is no sense of peril as far as I am concerned and therefore each weeks cliffhanger is wasted, COZ HE DOESN'T DIE.
Now I know you will all go on about Dredd (and I suppose other characters), well with Dredd we know there is an endgame lined up for him, as he is aging in real time (unlike DC & Marvel).

I say well done Kev  

P.P.S. FLU by Wayne (which I still have to review) was brilliant because no-one was safe and I LOVED that

[Definitely Not Mister Pops]

Here's my 2 creds.

I've got about half a dozen mates who are big comic fans, they all have their own tastes, some prefer DC/Marvel's stable, a couple like Vertigo, others like Image. I'm the only regular 2000AD reader, but I'd never tell anyone they should buy the Prog every week and the Meg every month, but I'm more than happy to lend them a couple of old ones. Then they can decide for themselves.

Now pretty much all of them have a few case files in their respective collections and I'm constantly being asked when Zenith is coming out.

[BPP]

I think most people know interwab behaviour when they see it, much as I think what unites us here (yes, you AND the people you have on ignore) is that 'we' love 2000AD. Lets face it - if you are a regular poster here you pretty much love 2000AD.. now that might be just 'dredd world' (like JC) or nearly everything in it, but with that a given most criticism is fairly well-meaning.

From the past 5 years what has been really criticised? Tony Lee's stuff? A small handful of the newer Dredd artists? That medical condition that blinds the reader to the joy of Steve Yeowell? The only real regular refrain is a bunch of people who don't like the Meg... fair enough thats not really anything other than a 'its not the prog' criticism and is rarely going add much to the debate. The forums are certainly much less critical than say the Podcast.

A creator being criticised is not really different to a forum member being attacked by another member - if it upsets you you are giving it way too much import. Frankly the people who need to get stuff off their chest in an aggressive manner (it's shvt, you're a twat etc etc) are the ones with problems, not the addressee. Laugh at it - its all its worth.

Criticism has a place on here but its a small place compared to praise, information, collaboration, support and commitment.Forum Regulars pretty much ARE ambassadors. Even the ones who smell. Long may the forums prosper.

[SmallBlueThing]

I think Commando Forces is an example to us all. Thinking about the opportunities i have to big up the prog (aside from standing in wh smiths and scaring people into buying it... Hereafter known as 'the cf model') i tend to buy lapsed readers trades at xmas and birthdays, promote it heavily on the scant few other forums i visit, and waffle about it on fb. Oddly enough, the most success ive had is with the two gents with autism, whose outreach service i run. Both of them have picked up a number of trades, both from the library and shops, over the last few months. But their favourite is still charley's war.
Oh, and i write wildly enthusiastic letters to the nerve center about strips you lot seem to dislike!

SBT

[Dog Deever]

No one is ripping Kev to pieces.
His post seemed to me to imply that we shouldn't be criticising 2000ad on here, as well as advocating promotion of the comic. Now that may well be a misreading on my part, but I certainly have no ill will toward Kev, having sat with him at the FQ table at Hi-Ex and chatted briefly, he's a nice bloke- nicer than me, I fluctuate between being a 'swell guy' and a 'fucking wanker', depending on whether I like you or not.

Whilst I agree that saying something is shit shouldn't be acceptable, I disagree with the idea that people have to be constructive with criticism. Your average fan might know nothing about how to make something better, or what is wrong with something- they might only know that they don't like it. For example, I know nothing about comic writing, so how can I tell a script droid how to improve a story?

Some people don't want to get into a big debate about why they dislike something, they may just want to register their disapproval. Not everyone can be articulate or write a well reasoned discourse on why they dislike something. Does that mean that they should be disqualified from expressing their opinion?

If I said "I don't like 'Age of the Wolf'- it's boring", that isn't constructive- nor is it rude or abusive. I can't back it up with reasoning or fact as it's a subjective judgement. Should I be allowed to say it?
Of course I should- I buy the comic, I'm entitled to say it. There's a world of difference between that and being the shouty bloke in a restaurant.

Like Steev, I'm not trying to be combative, but this particular discussion rears it's ugly head from time to time and I really hate the idea of being subject to censorship. If someone comes on and acts like a cock, ban them- but for fuck sake, lets not go down the road of the 'just-in-case' police. Now THAT is shit.

[Richmond Clements]

This is all good stuff!
Haven't time tonight to reply in depth, but it's a good discussion!

I gotta say though, knowing Kev as I do, I just know that he's now feeling really really bad about what he's created here!
Don't be, my friend, you have done a good thing.

And SBT is right- Commando Forces is an example to us all!

[TordelBack]

If I said "I don't like 'Age of the Wolf'- it's boring", that isn't constructive- nor is it rude or abusive. I can't back it up with reasoning or fact as it's a subjective judgement. Should I be allowed to say it?
Of course I should- I buy the comic, I'm entitled to say it. There's a world of difference between that and being the shouty bloke in a restaurant.

But that is reasonable criticism - you said you didn't like it because you find it boring.  You're not being rude to Alec or John, you're saying it doesn't do it for you.  Now if you wrote "Story X is completely shit, and that writer is crap", that'd be rude.   Personally I wouldn't be looking to prevent someone saying that, but I would l reserve the right to respond robustly in kind and tell the poster what I thought their choice of language and venue said about them.  Criticism doesn't have to be constructive (although I'd argue that noting that a story is boring is a bit constructive), just not bloody rude.

[SmallBlueThing]

No one has any ill will towards kev!

Its just that he's a shit artist.

THAT WAS A JOKE! HE'S ACTUALLY BLOODY GREAT!

SBT

[Dog Deever]

Don't worry Kev- no one is frothing here. If i can just repeat, so you don't misunderstand...
I certainly have no ill will toward Kev, having sat with him at the FQ table at Hi-Ex and chatted briefly, he's a nice bloke- nicer than me, I fluctuate between being a 'swell guy' and a 'fucking wanker', depending on whether I like you or not.

We're having a sensible adult debate and there is no mentalism to be found anywhere...

yet.

TB- It is reasonable, but that's not what was being said. What was said was to be 'constructive'- and it isn't constructive in any way. To be constructive I would need to add-
"There is too much flowery prose and too many captions, it reads like a short story broken into captions. The characters lack any real depth, both in writing and in design. The art, whilst being competent, is certainly not setting the prog alight with zarjaz"
Which a thin skinned creator might think of as 'rude' (though I don't), but it is constructive criticism.

This isn't a black and white issue- there are massive grey areas, and taking a black and white stance just doesn't cut the mustard. It will castrate the board.

[John Caliber]

I'd say that any criticism that is along the meagre lines of '(insert name) is shite/crap/a dick' has to be discarded immediately by any creator it's aimed at. It's on the same level as somebody throwing a turd at you. It's unpleasant, but turds have no brains and they're not something to try to empathise with. The jerk who threw it is acting on impulse, not reasoned judgement. While the creator (usually a sensitive soul) might fret over it for weeks, the turd-tosser has long since forgotten the event.

Any time anybody raises their head above the parapet, they become possible targets. We can upset somebody just by breathing, or looking at them when they're in a bad mood. We all have to learn to separate the turds from the mini-nukes...