So managed to squeeze in prep and we are straight into Round 5. 32 thrills remain, so at this point there is little use going on about how tough this will now be, how we are going to lose great thrills and how mind melting some of the decisions will become. It's now pretty obvious. That said there is one tie this week which I had as an outside chance of the final... not to be anymore AND I might go into meltdown if we see the end of the done in one story... it's going to be interesting to say the least
I can see a world in which this is the final... I mean it's not this world, but Jack Dancer will wander through the Library and find it one day! Also I secretly wish Slaine that actually been called 'Adventures of Slaine' or 'Arh here comes Ukko' or similar... see form book...
Form book (note none of the remaining thrill appeared in Round 1 - all getting byes; so the form book starts at Round 2)
Slaine: Bix Barton; Harke and Burr; Metalzoic
Strontium Dog: Angel Gang; Absalom; Ant Wars
Slaine - more info (http://www.2000ad.org/?zone=thrill&page=profiles&Comic=2000AD&choice=SLAINE)
VS
Strontium Dog - more info (http://www.2000ad.org/?zone=thrill&page=profiles&Comic=2000AD&choice=stront)
Just reply in this thread naming your favourite thrill of these two series at the beginning of your post (or use Bold tags so I can spot it easily) and say what you like about these wonderful stories after that.
Match ends early on the morning of Saturday 6th August and the winner gets a place in Round 6 (of 9!!!).
What on Earth is ALL of this? (https://forums.2000ad.com/index.php?topic=48011.0)
For those that need 'um and can be bothered to follow 'um there's some simple rules (https://forums.2000ad.com/index.php?topic=48011.msg1070150#msg1070150)
Any questions, just ask as ever - and have FUN!
Slaine
Slaine
SLAINE!
SBT
Strontium Dog
Early voting can often be deceptive BUT interesting start... VERY interesting start!
Slaine was going to be my number two in this tournament, but Strontium Dog is my number one.
Strontium Dog.
There's lots to admire in Slaine but I've never liked it.
Strontium Dog
Strontium Dog. The highs of Slaine were superb, but it was patchy. Stront was consistently good.
Good grief. If Sláine wins this, I'd love to know why. Yes, some (not all) of those early strips were fantastic – despite whiffing of Conan, it brought something different into the Prog, and mashing in bits and pieces from actual Celtic mythology was a very smart move by Mills. It brought the strip an air of authenticity similar strips don't have. Sky Chariots is a high for the Prog. Horned God is as well, visually at least. (On re-reading it in the UC, it... doesn't stand up as well as I remembered it.)
But Sláine also had years of meandering crap, and even of late had descended into something akin to borderline parody. It felt like Mills was tired and the strips themselves were tiresome, despite lovely art. Taken as a whole, the strip isn't that strong for me – probably better than Rogue Trooper, but below other 2000 AD heavy hitters.
Strontium, Dog was an odd one on an UC re-read as well. I liked quite a few of the classic strips less than I remembered, but the reboot stuff a bit more. However, there are at least as many highs in the classic run as Sláine had (The Killing; Rage; some great moments on Portrait of a Mutant), and the art is relentlessly high quality. There are some issues. Final Solution is heavy handed. The Life and Death of Johnny Alpha is humourless grimdark Strontium Dog that feels bitter. It's far, far too long, and I vehemently disliked what Wagner did regarding Hogan and Feral. Even so, on paper, this looks like Man City vs Liverpool, but ultimately it's more like Man City vs Leicester – a titan vs an opponent that has had some big highs but mostly exists in a range of good to mediocrity.
So: Strontium Dog, and it's not even close.
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 03 August, 2022, 09:59:21 AM
Even so, on paper, this looks like Man City vs Liverpool, but ultimately it's more like Man City vs Leicester – a titan vs an opponent that has had some big highs but mostly exists in a range of good to mediocrity.
Love that analogy!
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 03 August, 2022, 10:15:50 AM
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 03 August, 2022, 09:59:21 AM
Even so, on paper, this looks like Man City vs Liverpool, but ultimately it's more like Man City vs Leicester – a titan vs an opponent that has had some big highs but mostly exists in a range of good to mediocrity.
Love that analogy!
But Leicester Tigers will easily defeat Man City
Quote from: broodblik on 03 August, 2022, 10:29:05 AM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 03 August, 2022, 10:15:50 AM
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 03 August, 2022, 09:59:21 AM
Even so, on paper, this looks like Man City vs Liverpool, but ultimately it's more like Man City vs Leicester – a titan vs an opponent that has had some big highs but mostly exists in a range of good to mediocrity.
Love that analogy!
But Leicester Tigers will easily defeat Man City
At croquet.
Strontium Dog
The peaks of both strips are about comparable, but Slaine has far more troughs than Strontium Dog.
I take it all back, the impossible ties are here in full force!
I've been trying to maths my way out of having to make an actual choice here. Strontium Dog and Sláine couldn't be more different in terms of actual story, but as 2000AD thrills they're super comparable. Both have had long runs, broken up into very clear chunks of story. Both have yielded some of the single best ever comics stories ever. Both foreground action and humour but also both have some profound things to say about the human condition (granted, Stront achieves this with rather more subtlety, even when it's not being at all subtle). Both are more or less felt to have been untouchably great for the early years, then hit a rough patch, then have intermittently great late-period stories (granted, lots of people hate post-Horned God Sláine but they're wrong; the only truly bad Sláines, I think, are the middle two 'Brutania Chronicles, and even they have plenty of merit)
I ran through Barney and totted up how many stories from both thrills I adore. Turns out it's about 17 apiece. Stories I actively dislike - about 2 apiece. I tried comparing time when both strips had stories running in the Prog at the same time. By that metric, Sláine comes out best, mostly because I don't rate Outlaw or Bitch too highly. But I also have impossible choices to face between e.g. The Killing and Sky Chariots, or Slavers of Drule and Time Killer. Not to mention Shaggy Dog Story vs Carnival, exmaples of both strips doing short, funny ones late on in their time!
Then there's the art - Stront gets massive bonus points for the sheer consistent brilliance of Carlos Ezquerra, while Sláine is deeply inconsistent. But when the art on Sláine hit, it literally redefined what comics art can be.
Reaching into more nebulous ideas, I have to give points to Sláine for being a history lesson as well as an action comic. Not to everyone's taste, I'm sure, but I love the way Mills and Co really flesh out what it might have felt like being a Celt, and their willingness to explore the less savoury aspects of different cultures. With this in mind, I think in the overall history of comics, Sláine is the better one, that will touch a wider audience and maybe stand the test of time more.
But then there's the old 'which would I rather read some of right now?' question. And, despite the fact that I'm in the middle of a big Sláine re-read, I think the answer to that is almost always going to be Strontium Dog.
It has more and better jokes, and it has Carlos delivering the most delightful mutant designs, and the best damn action choreography of any comics I've ever read.
So my head wants to vote Sláine, but my heart is winning and it votes Strontium Dog.
Strontium Dog
Stront.
Strontium Dog
As said above Sky Chariots was a prog highlight but my Grud! the waffle since:
Strontium Dog
It's *subjective*, IP! Nice rant, though. I suppose the really outlandish idea isn't whether someone would vote Slaine or Strontium Dog in this meeting, but rather that one would be forced to say which is better between these two titans of 2000 AD. Suggesting that all Slaine has to offer is Sky Chariots might be a bit like dismissing Strontium Dog as *just* The Schicklgruber Grab.
You could argue that Slaine is disjointed (or, perhaps, has more ideas in it), but then Strontium Dog only went and killed the main character and forced itself into flashback, then rebooted, then resurrected. Slaine did his Quantum Salmon Leap research-of-the-week shenanigans, but then Alpha had a weird spook living in his head for a while, and decided it made sense for goblins to live in Wulf's past. For every Secret Commonwealth there's a Tax Dodge.
---
If we switch to positives, there's so much to love about Strontium Dog. My first full series was The Schicklgruber Grab, and I found myself in a raft of great thrills: Mutie's Luck, The Doc Quince Case, The Bad Boys Bust and then Portrait! I'm not sure it's had a better run, if I'm honest, but I can't dismiss The Killing (maybe the most fun of all the stories), or the Portrait sequel Outlaw. Things start to coast a little with The Big Bust of '49 and Slavers of Drule, but then we're hit with the one-two punches of Ragnorak and Rage.
Post-Wulf is an odd place to live, though. We could argue that it's peaked already, and there are all sorts of opinions about Bitch, the No-Go Job and then the Final Solution - packaged poorly with 29 episodes split over two artists, five segments and three years. Plus, y'know, killing the main character. It's perhaps fair to say that the flashback era was welcome in that it was Wagner & Ezquerra, but always tainted by the future death. Life and Death sorts that out but also means we have to wave farewell to Wulf again. The Son seemed to be trying, in a way, to get us back to the original dynamic by introducing Wulf's son.
---
Slaine smashed the door down with his axe in the Time-Monster, and we were introduced not only to him and Ukko, but also to Tir Nan Og (via the map), and evidence of Pat's research work in an article in the next prog. This lavish sense of care and attention is something that accompanied Slaine but didn't seem evident in other thrills, making it stand out as something special. The opening sequence of adventures, with the Drunes as the enemy, and Slaine chopping everyone up with Brain-Biter, seems just flawless - with wraparound covers from Belardinelli and McMahon, and the excellent finishing thrills of Sky Chariots and Dragonheist.
Almost immediately, we get pushed sideways with Time Killer as the milieu expands to include the Cyth, the axe gets ditched for a beam-firing leyser-sword and hints of a time-traveling structure first make themselves felt. Fabry's work on Time Killer is astoundingly good, though - and followed up with the grand experiment of the Tomb of Terror comic and adventure game combo. Pat starts to leak in the artifacts that are needed to propel Slaine to Kingship, and there's a sense the tale is told from a couple of different angles that settle eventually into The Horned God (don't believe the hype), with the famous Bisley painted work. The idea that Slaine will be ritually killed at the end of his tenure seems to stamp a sell-by date on the adventures, but Pat has a way out of that in the form of his Time Charnel structure.
Viewing Slaine through the lens of various points in history and myth has its moments, but ultimately starts to seem repetitive, as we swing through Roman Britain, get down and dirty with Robin of the Greenwood, round the table with Arthur Pendragon, shout for freedom with William Wallace and play with gender roles during the Crusades. So, y'know, it's difficult to accuse this of being boring. This is followed with a move to bring Slaine back to his tribal lands but the long-form Secret Commonwealth fails to impress as the fans call foul.
Pat reacts by getting Clint Langley on board and launching a decade's worth of Books of Invasion - always beautiful, kind of moving things forward but still always circling around an endless battle with the Sea Demons. Slaine wanders off for a few years before using Simon Davis to kick the door back down with the Chronicles. A wonderfully aged Slaine gets all angsty, there's a fascinating examination of acute depression, then things start to go a big Pete Tong with an offscreen shouty god voice. Oddly, the series ends with what seems like a parodic mash-up of Slaine and Dinosty, beautifully rendered by Leonardo Michelangelo Manco.
---
My entirely subjective vote goes to Slaine.
(https://2kstages.github.io/AtoZ/Slaine/slaine.png)
Strontium dog
Quote from: Funt Solo on 03 August, 2022, 06:21:58 PMIt's *subjective*, IP!
Well, sure. I figure it's obvious that whatever I say here is opinion, not a set-in-stone fact. Like I said, if Sláine wins, I'd like to know why. So it's good to see people putting down their reasoning... some at length! ;)
Strontium Dog.
I'm also going to go against received wisdom and say that I don't think that there was ever a bad Stront story.
Post Wulf, the format gets a shake-up and we get a wider variety of strips so we can have:
* Johnny being mean on his own ( Incident on Mayger Minor, most of the stories from the annuals and specials).
* Johnny and Middenface ( warzone, the Rammy)
* Johnny and Red ( The Bitch, Stone Killers)
It's a real shame we didn't get another couple of books worth of stories with the new set up and also to see where the Johnny and Red dynamic went.
Quote from: Dark Jimbo on 03 August, 2022, 11:33:09 AM
The peaks of both strips are about comparable, but Slaine has far more troughs than Strontium Dog.
While I agree with that, I'm going to treat
Sláine like John Lydon and Morrissey, and forget about the flabby, annoying bore it became. Stront is brilliant, of course, but everything up to and including The Horned God is some of the best comics has to offer.
Quote from: Huey2 on 03 August, 2022, 09:27:44 PM
Strontium Dog.
I'm also going to go against received wisdom and say that I don't think that there was ever a bad Stront story.
Oh no, there definitely is one. I'm off on hols at the moment so can't look it up, but there was one from (I think) a Starlord annual that was reprinted in the Search and Destroy collection. It's uncredited to both writer and artist and Johnny is pretty much unrecognisable from the character that we know and love, acting completely out of character. It's so bad the writer and artist are probably glad they weren't credited.
Strontium Dog. Apart from the very early stuff, and Life and Death (the execution not the concept) it's at least readable and often awesome.
This is basically for the tournament win, isn't it?
Top-tier thrill that Slaine undoubtedly is (was?), for me the only time it really hit the spot was the run of McMahon stories (though Tomb of Terror was lot of fun). After that the epic storylines quickly started to meander. Whereas Strontium Dog was so sweetly written, the stories were a joy to read - from The Galaxy Killers right through to The Stone Killers, it was uniformly a prog highlight.
So, while recognising the awesome contributions made by the stellar art droids who worked on Slaine, my vote goes to Strontium Dog.
Quote from: norton canes on 04 August, 2022, 11:47:27 AM
This is basically for the tournament win, isn't it?
My guess was there are at least 2 other stories ahead of Slaine in the pecking order and a few others that would challenge it. I mean I have a long history of nort predicting these tourneys well BUT I reckon there are other thrills that will challenge Strontium Dog (hot favourite to win) more.
" Oh no, there definitely is one. "
Yeah, you're right, if you're including the ones done by stand-in writers and artists, there are some duff strips.
Slaine is pretty lucky in being an 80s strip that didn't receive an appearance in a special or annual with someone else behind the typewriter.
To be fair, Ro-Busters and The ABC Warriors had excellent Alan Moore-penned stories in the annuals.
Won't someone think of the children? Did Moses Quest die in vain?
Stronty-Donty!
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 04 August, 2022, 11:49:29 AM
Quote from: norton canes on 04 August, 2022, 11:47:27 AM
This is basically for the tournament win, isn't it?
My guess was there are at least 2 other stories ahead of Slaine in the pecking order and a few others that would challenge it. I mean I have a long history of nort predicting these tourneys well BUT I reckon there are other thrills that will challenge Strontium Dog (hot favourite to win) more.
Obviously the likes of
Dante, Halo Jones, Zenith, Nemesis and of course
A Life Less Ordinary are in there with a very good chance too, but it'll be hard to dislodge Stronty. I voted Sláine, but I do recognise that The Dog has been more consistently good.
Quote from: JayzusB.Christ on 04 August, 2022, 05:04:42 PM
... I voted Sláine, but I do recognise that The Dog has been more consistently good.
I mean its more consistantly good than Slaine BUT and here's where I get run out of town... I think Strontium Dog is a series of real ups and downs. I mean its highs are really,
really high, its just there's a few lows and a lot of middling stuff. I think particularly in the longer form stories there's a few that I'm just not that keen on.
Compare that to Halo Jones, consistantly good. Zenith, consistantly good*, Nikolai Dante consistantly good. Nemesis even when not exactly good always astonishingly imaginative and in the main consistantly good. I'd dare to say Lawless, consistantly good, Anderson for 20 years consistantly good. Sinister Dexter for the vast majority of its run consistantly good. Red Seas consistantly good.
Now clearly other folk's view will vary and that's part the fun, but for me Strontium Dog is the least consistant, after Slaine, ABCs of all the 'greats'. Rogue Trooper is pretty consistant for me, but in the main at the wrong end of the scale!
*
Okay, okay ZZZZZenith but every story will have some poppycock and that could be applied to just about every series I'm about to describe as consistant!
One thing about Halo and Zenith is there's no bloat. Each book tells us a story, each moves the plot forward in a meaningful way. I'd put Nemesis on the cusp as it goes on long enough that it starts to run out of steam.
Dante has bloat, within a greater arc of cohesion. Maybe using the word bloat is unfair, because sometimes the structure of something is more episodic than arcing (original Star Trek being episodic, for example), and it doesn't necessarily make it bloaty. An episodic nature, though, gives room for damp squibs in amongst the Tribbles. Dante Goes to Britain and Dante Goes to America are both a bit squibish.
Lawless is good, but can suffer from rent-a-baddy silliness. I'm thinking of the train attack. Anderson is anything but consistent. Between Hour of the Wolf and Shamballa there's an entire raft of meh (with the paradise island of Triad floating in the middle).
Anything that's gone on as long as Stront (or Red Seas, or SinDex), by the very nature of things, is bound to have ups and downs, though. My main issue with SD is not that's it's ever been truly awful, but that quite a few of the shaggy dog tales just tread water. Given the abundant love for it, though, I'm not seeing a thrill that'll defeat it in this competition. Unless you all take a vacation and let me do all the voting. No?
It also looks like we're approaching the point where nostalgia takes over to enough of a degree that certain strips will sail through. I hope that's not the case though. It'd be a bit sad if the last eight are all strips from the early 1980s.
outside the prog, love and rockets has gone on forever and i can't think of any lows.
Quote from: Funt Solo on 04 August, 2022, 07:56:49 PM
One thing about Halo and Zenith is there's no bloat. Each book tells us a story, each moves the plot forward in a meaningful way. I'd put Nemesis on the cusp as it goes on long enough that it starts to run out of steam.
Dante has bloat, within a greater arc of cohesion. Maybe using the word bloat is unfair, because sometimes the structure of something is more episodic than arcing (original Star Trek being episodic, for example), and it doesn't necessarily make it bloaty. An episodic nature, though, gives room for damp squibs in amongst the Tribbles. Dante Goes to Britain and Dante Goes to America are both a bit squibish.
Lawless is good, but can suffer from rent-a-baddy silliness. I'm thinking of the train attack. Anderson is anything but consistent. Between Hour of the Wolf and Shamballa there's an entire raft of meh (with the paradise island of Triad floating in the middle).
Anything that's gone on as long as Stront (or Red Seas, or SinDex), by the very nature of things, is bound to have ups and downs, though. My main issue with SD is not that's it's ever been truly awful, but that quite a few of the shaggy dog tales just tread water. Given the abundant love for it, though, I'm not seeing a thrill that'll defeat it in this competition. Unless you all take a vacation and let me do all the voting. No?
Think if it was down to me, I'd put either Halo or Zenith at the top ahead of The Dog. Then again, I didn't like Dante till Tsar Wars and I liked both Big Dave and Really and Truly, so what do I know anyway.
When Slaine is good it is brilliant.But it ain't no Nemesis the Warlock.
It took Stevie nigh a decade of reading the prog for John & Carlos's other signature character, Old Stony Face, to click with him. Yet Strontium Dog won him over in about 4 or 5 pages.
Strontium Dog it is.
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 04 August, 2022, 08:40:58 PM
It also looks like we're approaching the point where nostalgia takes over to enough of a degree that certain strips will sail through. I hope that's not the case though. It'd be a bit sad if the last eight are all strips from the early 1980s.
I have to admit this is a concern that I have too. We'll see but The Out is already struggling...
I mean Slaine got the first blows in, but lets face it, it was a battle axe against a Westinghouse variable cartridge blaster in the grand scheme of things and natural order seems to have been returned. We'll examine the holes in chests in the morning.
As stated by others, Strontium Dog, and it's not even close.
Not because it's nostalgic for me, I've only been a Squaxx for ~6 years. Strontium Dog because I enjoy it much more!
Quote from: The Mind of Wolfie Smith on 04 August, 2022, 11:11:51 PM
outside the prog, love and rockets has gone on forever and i can't think of any lows.
Agreed. I'm voting Love and Rockets.
Think I'm going with Stront in the actual contest though.
Quote from: Blue Cactus on 05 August, 2022, 10:10:03 AM
Quote from: The Mind of Wolfie Smith on 04 August, 2022, 11:11:51 PM
outside the prog, love and rockets has gone on forever and i can't think of any lows.
Agreed. I'm voting Love and Rockets.
That's cool, as long as no one else vote 'City of the Damned'
Mind the correct answer there is Concrete!
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 04 August, 2022, 11:49:29 AM
I have a long history of nort predicting
(https://i.imgur.com/OB3wUi7.png)
Strontium Dog
Very difficult one. Strontium Dog
VOTING CLOSED
The scale of this victory is something to behold. I mean Slaine got more than half its votes before SD even got off the mark, but once it started racking the votes in it simply didn't stop. Saline did fine and the thread itself was an absolute delight as the cionversation flurished - and I hope that means I didn't miss any votes! In amongst all that however, even against a thrill that I thought had an outside chance of being a finalist Strontium Dog not only joined the 20+ club, curiously for the first time, but got more votes than any other thrill in any tie to date. Given the opposition that is impressive and sends a warning all other thrills about how hard it will be to topple the favourite.
Strontium Dog
Takes the bounty and heads to Round 6 for more.
I voted Sláine, but I'm almost relieved as it's been off the boil to one extent or another since the end of The Horned God.
The Dog deserves to do well - me, I've always been far more a fan of the gritty, close-to-home Britain-set stuff rather than the crazy space adventures, but it's a credit to the creators that it manages to swing wildly between each without breaking a sweat.
I even thought the Final Solution was brilliant and loved both Simon Harrison and Colin McNeil's art on it, and kind of wish they'd rebooted the series or something instead of resurrecting him, but that's for another thread.