snow/tiger - rascist anti american crap.

[thinky]

Anti-American Mantra?

You could be right - 2thou doesn't need to turn readers against America - the good ol' USA is doing a great job of tarnishing it's image all on it's own.

[longmanshort]

I've read some pretty challenging things in my time, and tooth ranks among the best. As I mentioned in an early thread, even as a Christian I haven't been offended by Mr Mills' Chaotic ramblings. I've just taken it as part of the story and judged its use in that context.

My reaction to stories or ideas that challenge beliefs or opinions that I possess is to read them, read them again, put the prog down, have a cuppa, read it again and then move on. I weigh up the implications of the arguement, the pros, the cons and whether that side is supported by evidence/context. Then I think about MY beliefs and subject them to the same kind of criticism and scrutiny. THAT is reasoned arguement, not being left-wing or 'liberal' (surprisingly, now a dirty word in America!)

What I don't do is throw the prog across the room, get all hot under the collar, write pompous (no offence) missives to tooth AND this board, and threaten not to buy it anymore. That kinda reaction is no more mature or useful than randoming accusing someone of being racist/sexist/ageist/left-wing/right-wing for not doing or saying what you want them to.

For students of psychology/communications out there, it's an interesting case of Cognitive Dissonance. When confronted with a signal that conflicts with the accepted, a human being will do one of four things. They will either ignore it completely, listen but refuse to change their opinons, listen and make some changes or listen and completely adopt the new viewpoint. The first is useless, and often leads to conflict. The last is very rare. The answer, as always, is to THINK about it, don't just reject it.

No offence King Chillout, but take a pill, mull it over, examine your own reaction to this story line, see how it pans out and that way you may get to understand YOUR opinions better.

You can call me left-wing (or long-winded) all you want. But I was always told to be open-minded and the more I read, the more I examine my own beliefs, the better I know myself and (in an old fashioned stylee) I more wise I become (except buying that new scanner - that was just stupid!)

Peace :o)

[petemaskreplica]

can we go back to talking about monkeys in hats and stuff now?http://mysite.freeserve.com/petemaskreplica/photos/monkey_in_hat.jpg">

[Devons Daddy]

welcome to the board

all fair points you have raised, but i must admit to enjoying the very basis of it as it stands the polar differences from the two main characters.

i to be honest thought it was once again tooth breaking new ground
(for itself as opposed to comics in general)and the art was breath taking.

for me its a real thriler in an actin movie sense.i will allow it to run its course and see how it develps. i read it with a sense of wow great. as i would see an arnie movie.not a sense of sci fi wow or this could happen how real. more a complete entertainment view.
but each to his own.

one thing. dont leave. stay and visit often. shred the story here if you wish and enjoy the responses both for and against. its a great way to really get unto another level of enjoyment by posting  here.

and we really are the friendlist bunch you could wish to meet.

[Smiley]

Ah, well. At least Snow/Tiger's provoking misguided kneejerk outrage, so Andy's evil work is now complete.

[Dounreay]

Havn't read Snow/Tiger yet but if thats the reaction it can provoke, I'd say more power to yer elbow Tharg, my man. Keep up the good work.

More arguments, more debate, more people going puce with righteous indignation.

Right, time to get up off my lazy arse, change out of my PJs and pop to the local thrill-merchant for my prog.

By the way, that monkey is wearing a red hat.

I DON'T PAY GOOD MONEY TO COME ON TO THIS BOARD TO BE SUBJECTED TO PINKO, COMMIE, MONKEY SUBVERSIVES POSING AS CUDDLY TOYS AND POISONING OUR PRECIOUS BODILY FLUIDS. EITHER THE MONKEY GOES OR I DO!!  

[King Chillout]

I've read it again....and it hasn't got any better.
In fact Snow/tiger could be held up as THE model of how to get as many stereotypical politically correct characters and events into a single installment of a comic book series !

Page 2: (panels 1&2) peddles the PC line that ALL muslim terrorists are deeply religious and are killing for what they think is a "noble" cause.
All muslim terrorists believe they will die as martyrs.
Notice how the innocent hostages are not now shown.
This distances the terrorist from the actions of a would be murderer and his victims and concentrates our minds on his religious beliefs.


(panel 3) shows us that all American white men are unwilling to listen to muslims and always go in guns blazing. The more brutal the death the better.

Page 3 (all panels) "what - NO!" Hey look....there's going to be some killing even though an order has been made to stop it (and I bet it's by that pesky American !).
 
Muslims dumb and never shoot straight (so they can't actually kill anyone ? Cuddly terrorists ?)
Western white men more technically advanced (unfair advantage)
"Fish in a barrel" says....killing muslims is easy.

Page 4 "Die American son of satan!"  Link Americans with the Devil because as we all know, only Americans are evil.

and after killing off those poor terrorists, what better show of western decadence, than lighting up a cigarette ? (Killing is like sex ?)


That's just the first few pages !

If you read on, you will find that the only killing done throughout the story is by white men.
Amazing, when you consider that this story is about Muslim terrorists with a bloody big bomb and machine guns !

Then again, maybe it's not so amazing in these PC rampant times !

[paulvonscott]

Er... yeah.  There's a lot of 'ALL...' in there when really we are just talking about one character and one situation.  I think that's you jumping to conclusions chillout.

In the arab world from what I've seen, America and Satan are said in the same breath, generally as the Great Satan.  Andy didn't invent that.

America has invaded and bombed two Muslim countries in the last year and looks like it might be lining up another.  We live in a world where Islamic Suicide Bombers are in the paper every other week.

Hmmm... I find it a bit odd that you've only turned up for this.  What really is your beef?

[longmanshort]

"Er... yeah. There's a lot of 'ALL...' in there when really we are just talking about one character and one situation. I think that's you jumping to conclusions chillout."

"Hmmm... I find it a bit odd that you've only turned up for this. What really is your beef?"

Quite. What'sa da story?

[Richmond Clements]

I do hope you are not suggesting that 'King Chillout' is in fact, not all he would seem to be, and may have an ulterior motive?

Surely not...

[Richmond Clements]

I see that Andy Diggle hasn't posted any rebuttall to the accusations leveled at him here.

Not that I blame him, I think your better off out of this one Andy.

Our friend Mr. Chillout seems to have made up his mind about this tale (for whatever reason), and any counter arguement is probably, or sould I say, is, for all we know, moot.


I must say that I am disgusted at John Wagner, for clearly portraying ALL Russians as mad terrorist bombers, hell bent on the destruction of the USA.
And for showing all Americans to be anti-Russian, and being unprepared to listen to any other arguement.

You see what I did there.

[Devons Daddy]

its odd
but i live in a society with a large muslim influence and we are completely surrounded by muslim countries but i dont see this story in the same way as you do chillout.

also i note the second main character Snow is a muslim though she is not wearing a tudang
(head scarf)which knocks another part of your arguement off its tilt a little.

also she complains at the fact he media automatically assumes the terrorists must be muslims.

i also note the last frame with the chaps in a form of uniform before the very powerful last page are not sporting any typical stereo type images.also the main insider is a white chap.so all this considered i find it difficult to follow your lead.

also as disscussed in another thread the arms being used are authentic.and correct to the standard issue of such anti terror squads.
and if i am not mistaken the bombers are carrying the kalnisnkov , which is the basic weapon of choice of freedom fighters. due to its ease of use.high accuracy rate and cost against ease of getting hold of ammo without any questions.
to be honest i think this is a well researched piece and brillantly written piece of FICTION.

and by the way.muslims are allowed to smoke.if he had a drink of alcholol i would concurr with you.but he didnt did he.

sorry you are up against a very well informed and eductated board here.
nice try but you fell over several times there.

BOARDERS, question. name that should not be spoken alert?
just dawned on me as i wrote this.feelings?

[Devons Daddy]

i have emailed wake on this,
i think its him. perhap we should all avoid this thread for awhile until wake makes sure.

DD

[dweezil2]

dunno what the fuss is all about. Taken on it's own merits SNOW/TIGER has aninteresting premise, great art and rattles along at a break-neck speed.Which IMHO, makes it a winner.As mentioned before, it's not the first time that 2000ad has featured a contentious storyline, e.g. BIG DAVE, BLAIR1; and anyway, isn't it 2000ad's remit, to challenge as much as it is to entertain?

[Richmond Clements]

Before my time, DD, but even I know to what you are refering.
I'll leave it to wiser heads...