The Political Thread

[Old Tankie]

Sorry, sauchie, my mistake.  I obviously misread your comments.  I'll go along with a referendum as a poor second best, but basically I believe in a parliamentary democracy.  I want to vote in a government that has a stated aim rather than a promise to ask me a question.  Anyway, the idea that the Tories are going to get elected next year is in "pink pigs are flying" territory.  The only chance they've got is if you guys up North decide to go for a stroll!

[Old Tankie]

Yes, well we live in a democracy, Jim, I'm allowed to baffle you!

[Jim_Campbell]

Yes, well we live in a democracy, Jim, I'm allowed to baffle you!

Not going to answer the question, then? What vexes you so about the EU that you're prepared to consider voting for UKIP when I've spelled out some of their other policies and suggested some areas of British politics that have little or nothing to do with Europe and must surely have some relevance to your personal situation?

Jim

[Frank]

Sorry, sauchie, my mistake.  I obviously misread your comments.  I'll go along with a referendum as a poor second best, but basically I believe in a parliamentary democracy.  I want to vote in a government that has a stated aim rather than a promise to ask me a question.  Anyway, the idea that the Tories are going to get elected next year is in "pink pigs are flying" territory.  The only chance they've got is if you guys up North decide to go for a stroll!

HA! To be honest, I wouldn't want to put money on either of those contests turning out the way some polls have been suggesting. Milliband's not doing well, Cameron's just doing badly, and the latest poll only puts Labour ahead by 3 points.

ICM in the Scotland on Sunday have figures of YES 34%(-5), NO 46%(+4). This looks like a sudden big shift to NO, but I suspect a lot of that is a reversion to the mean. ICM's last Scottish poll was the one showing the NO lead shrinking to just 3 points... I suspect that one was just a bit of an outlier and this is a return to normality.

There is a big contrast between what different pollsters in Scotland are showing, and many people trying to read narratives and trends into the polls that aren't really there. Even attempts at "polls of polls" are tricky because of the difference between pollsters and their uneven pattern of publication ...

http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/

[The Legendary Shark]

My problem with the EU is that it is in the pockets of the same corporations and banks as Britain, France, Germany, India, China, Pakistan, the USA, Afghanistan (since we invaded), Iraq (since we invaded)...

[Steve Green]

I've no idea what's going to happen next year, but I could see the Tories hanging on.

Typically I've either voted LibDem or Labour, but after getting lumbered with a LibCon coalition I can't see myself voting LibDem, and Miliband doesn't convince either.

It's not much of a choice.

[Old Tankie]

Hi Jim - Sure there are other issues that affect me.  I'm seriously physically disabled and have to rely on the State for a certain amount of my income.  I'm worried what will happen to me when my wife can no longer look after me and I have to go into some godforsaken home.  The current Government have cost me thousands of pounds by changing the benefit system.

I know not many immigrants claim out of work benefits, most of them are hard working but we've got millions of unemployed people here.  And I'm all for skilled immigrants if we need them.  But we haven't got enough housing as it is.

I agree, the NHS is cracking under the strain.  But, at the end of the day I believe in the nation state being able to control its own destiny.  I'm sure it's baffling, but that's my view.

[Jim_Campbell]

ut, at the end of the day I believe in the nation state being able to control its own destiny.  I'm sure it's baffling, but that's my view.

To the exclusion of issues that affect you directly? You're prepared to consider voting for UKIP despite the only policy you approve of being abstract and having little or no direct bearing on your day-to-day existence? Despite all their other policies being massively detrimental to the average person in this country?

I'm sorry — this makes no sense.

Jim

[Old Tankie]

Hi Jim, my point is that membership of the European Union is not an abstract thing, it has a massive affect on my day-to-day existence, from how much I pay for my groceries, to how long it takes to see a doctor, to how much VAT I pay on my utility bills, to the amount of green taxes I have to pay, to having to move my bank because of EU rules, etc., etc.  In fact, I can't think of one area that isn't affected wholly or partly by Britain's membership of the European Union.

[ZenArcade]

Yes, but a lot of us don't necessarily see this as a bad thing. I understand the argument by many UK posters here and voters in general, they are apprehensive with immigration; they have concerns over sovereignty and control of their lives. I even agree with some of these concerns, Brussels as it is constituted now is a pretty rarefied entity, there does appear to be flagerancy in terms of budget allocation; I am horrified with the meddling in the Ukraine etc. But (there's always a but) as Jim points out the alternative is worse. UKIP is as neo liberal as the rest of them, probably more so. The rights introduced by the EU in terms of what Jim set out are all that keep the majority of working people being existentially defaulted back to the 1830's.

[Old Tankie]

I agree, Zen, that some of the laws from the EU are good but some are bad and it's a choice for the individual to decide, with their vote, whether they agree with the Union or not.  But it's not an abstract thing, it has a big affect on our lives, good or bad.

[ZenArcade]

 No arguments here, you should count yourselves lucky....the shower of venal, asocial, evolution denying, mendacious f**king trash we get put in front of us on the ballot in NI are orders of magnitide beyond what you guys have to put up with in the rest of the UK. 

[The Legendary Shark]

I'm getting sick of democracy. In a democracy, 51% beats 49% - which means that if 51% pass the laws then 49% have no right to disagree.
.
I think a republic would be better because in a republic if the 51% pass laws they are only advisory and not mandatory. So if the 49% disagree with the laws passed they can comply or not based on personal choice. Anyone not complying with the laws of the majority is not automatically a criminal - unless actual loss, harm or damage is caused, in which case they get taken to court just like anyone else.
.
Democracy is all about blanket control whereas a republic is all about personal freedom and responsibility. Turn the EU into the ER and I'd be the first one waving the European flag.
.

[The Legendary Shark]

I'm getting sick of democracy. In a democracy, 51% beats 49% - which means that if 51% pass the laws then 49% have no right to disagree.
.
I think a republic would be better because in a republic if the 51% pass laws they are only advisory and not mandatory. So if the 49% disagree with the laws passed they can comply or not based on personal choice. Anyone not complying with the laws of the majority is not automatically a criminal - unless actual loss, harm or damage is caused, in which case they get taken to court just like anyone else.
.
Democracy is all about blanket control whereas a republic is all about personal freedom and responsibility. Turn the EU into the ER and I'd be the first one waving the European flag.
.

[Jim_Campbell]

I don't think these words mean what you think they mean.

Jim