2000 AD Online Forum

General Chat => Off Topic => Topic started by: TordelBack on 05 March, 2020, 08:57:13 PM

Title: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 05 March, 2020, 08:57:13 PM
"Tomorrow will be worse. And the day after that. And after that... too grim to contemplate."

In the spirit of the Politics Thread, I thought we might consider self-isolating Coronavirus chat here. That way those of us who want to stare into the abyss can do so in company, and those who'd understandably rather pull the curtains and turn up the stereo don't have to hear the moans of the damned.

Starting this in the full knowledge that this isn't going to be funny, and people you love are probably going to die before this is over. So I apologise for offence in advance.

14 cases in Ireland now, doubling every day, and community transmission hasn't even started. Outgoing Govt response is to pretend there are no issues, and no actions required, so that the economy can stagger on infecting everyone for a bit longer before it keels over and dies.

*Everything* depends upon the final level of infection rates, and we here appear to have surrendered that fight without even trying.

Who'd have thought hardline communist dictatorships were ahead of the game after all?
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: JayzusB.Christ on 05 March, 2020, 09:04:45 PM
Good idea to start a new thread.  This is going to be a big one, and I don't think the enormity has hit me yet. 

I wonder what will change after this, along with the deaths.  Economies maybe. Governments.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 05 March, 2020, 09:05:49 PM
Again, a local school sent children on a skiing trip to Italy on Monday, in full knowledge that skiing holidays are where loads of infections originated. So that vector seems fun. Kids return, spread the virus to friends/parents/siblings. And then the town is fucked.

My hope is they'll get lucky. Regardless, I wish people would stop being a mix of selfish, flippant, and ignorant about the potential dangers. (Icelanders returning from Italy were reported as having switched flights, so they could avoid quarantine. Fortunately, many of them were idiots and boasted about this on social media. Even so, that tiny country now has over 30 cases. That might not sound much, but that's one for every 10,000 people there.)
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 06 March, 2020, 08:19:11 AM
So we've got a climate change thread, a coronavirus thread - maybe I'll start an asteroid thread given the close call that's due in about a month.

I guess my only real thought on this is that it's staggering how much media hysteria is being whipped up about a virus whose death toll remains in the 100s versus, say, deaths by car in the U.K. which number in the thousands, and actual deaths by climate change to date which already number in the millions.

On the plus side, China quarantining itself has caused a staggering drop in emissions.

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 06 March, 2020, 09:33:10 AM
Unknowns are a concern. There's no vaccine, and this virus seems rather nasty, converting to a hospitalisation condition in a fifth of people who catch it. Death rate is around 3.4%, according to the WHO. If it can be contained, we'll probably be OK. If it can't and it hits in one big blast, we don't have enough hospital beds.

As for climate change, I agree, but a lot of this comes down to political will. Climate change is "in the future", and so gets punted. This virus is "now", and so gets _some_ attention from politicians. Although in the west, they still seem to be figuring out how many deaths they can get away with before shutting everything down. The economy remains king. As do skiing trips.

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: pauljholden on 06 March, 2020, 09:57:40 AM
This morning I decided we need a coronvirus plan - nothing significent, not zombie attack plan, just a general, what do we do if a) either one of the kids school finds someone infected or b) wife's shared office space does the same. These are our biggest potential vectors.

My youngest has asthma, though I think he'd be fine, but both my wife and my dad are gonna be pretty susceptable to anything and I don't want to endanger them.

Here's the plan, in the event that one of the two schools or wife's shared office reports someone has it, all of us will self isolate for two weeks. That should limit our potential to spread anything from one location to another.

We have some food for a little while (*two days probably given how my kids eat), but I've family can probably deliver stuff to our front door (or tesco's can)

After the two weeks, everything being equal, I'm sure we'll be all clear. At that point if the location is still closed off, we'll simply avoid that place until it's clear - in the meantime the rest of us can go about our business.

Gonna be a bit more careful outside our flat in the communal areas (because who knows, right?) and will probably start to buy enough in-house supplies for a two week self-isolation program if it comes to that.

But aside from that, that's largely it.

Our biggest concern is our eldest has always been funny about his health and cleanliness to the point I've been worried he'll develop OCD and we have an appointment with someone to talk about CBT to make sure it doesn't become abnormal. BUT - what he's always been doing is now the recommended advice, and he's keen to start wearing face masks (and has been for years...)

It's very hard to know where sensible planning crosses the line to panic, but I hope I've struck a balance.



Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 06 March, 2020, 10:49:29 AM
That's basically our Plan too, although we have added an appendix outlining which pet we'll eat first.  Saves arguments later.  The big worry for me is how to continue to provide care for two elderly and unwell relatives.

While I agree that the media have been driven to ecstatic heights by their newest click-enhancer, I don't think there is any hysteria whatsoever in the WHO numbers - and those are absolutely dire if infection rates even get out of single digits. With a mortality rate 20-40 times that of recent flu's, and even the young and fit as likely to die of C-19 as the most elderly crock is of seasonal flu (0.2%), plus a huge number of Chinese victims still in critical care, I think it's a very, very serious situation indeed. With 1 in 5 victims requiring hospital care, and about 1 in 25 requiring ICU, it only takes the smallest of infection rates to utterly overwhelm our health services.

I've said it before here, but here it is again: 250 ICU beds in Ireland (and a promise of 20 more), which means we have to keep the infection rate below 0.25% (about 11,000 victims total) at any one time or people will be dying at way above the predicted levels.  That's not far off the same level of hospitalisations as seasonal flu, against which the elderly, vulnerable and frontline staff are vaccinated, as well as the responsible chunk of the rest of us. So in the absence of a vaccine, and a long incubation period, why would we believe C-19 infections will stay below that number?

When there are no more ventilators left, watch that mortality rate soar.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 06 March, 2020, 10:51:32 AM
I'm trialling a reverse-isolation strategy. Every time someone coughs in my vicinity, I drag them into an alley and kill them with a baseball bat. It's the only way to be sure.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: paddykafka on 06 March, 2020, 11:21:30 AM
While I'm reasonably confident of my own ability to protect myself from this virus, and follow basic common sense and decency when it comes to coughing or sneezing etiquette, that most certainly does not extend to my fellow humans. Case in point: just a few weeks ago, the guy behind the counter in Teco's - who was clearly afflicted with a cold or chest infection of some kind or other - sneezed right into his hand, before then proffering my change from the purchase towards me. I told him to put it in the charity box!

And don't get me started on public transport. Just a couple of months ago during the height of flu season, the amount of mank-bags on buses and trams, coughing, sneezing and hacking without even bothering to cover their gobs or expel their sputum into a tissue was staggering. It was like travelling on mobile petri dishes!

I will soon be refraining from using public transport and going shank's mare instead until this crisis has passed.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 06 March, 2020, 12:23:08 PM
It's bad enough at schools. Mini-G (5) is super at sneezing/coughing properly, but comes back almost every day saying how other kids at her school don't do that. But then I was recently on a train with some grumpy 20yo (or thereabouts) sitting on the floor, coughing into the air. Thanks, germ spreader!
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 06 March, 2020, 12:44:16 PM
In terms of preparedness, we've had a rolling stock of 6 months supplies of food and essentials ever since the first Brexit date rolled around. We could self-isolate right now and come out in a month having probably put on weight from stuffing our faces out of boredom.

Re the numbers cited above, I bow to the findings of the number crunchers - not my area of expertise. It is tough to find calm, rational info amid the noise, but if that is what WHO say I'm not about to argue with the scientists. Unless of course I see some YouTube videos about it being a big conspiracy to sell more Andrex.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IAMTHESYSTEM on 06 March, 2020, 01:55:09 PM
I think Judge Dredd advised us to 'Wash our hands,' so there's some sage advice for everyone. Not looking too good, is it? I'm reading The Modern Mercenary by Sean Mcfate and according to him, the 14th Century is about to return, with private Mercenary Corps devastating parts of the globe on behalf of Governments and Private Monies. Couple that with disease pandemics like the current Coronavirus, migration waves as civilians try to escape war zones and powerful technology like A.I Spy Drones, you can see how bad this Century could become. "Vive la mort, Vive la Guerre, Vive le sacré mercenaire" (Long live death, long live war, long live the cursed mercenary)
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Dandontdare on 06 March, 2020, 03:13:09 PM
I'm off to Lanzarote in the morning and I've got a hacking (smoker's) cough - shouldn't have trouble getting a seat at the airport!

I'm more worried about Ryanair still being in business in a week's time than catching the bug.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: moly on 06 March, 2020, 06:36:06 PM
Due to go to Singapore and Thailand beginning of April so that should be interesting if the planes are actually flying then
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Funt Solo on 06 March, 2020, 07:05:17 PM
Recovering from another lung virus, and my knee surgery, and my first ever full-blown panic attack (post-op stress), my psyche is quietly gibbering in a corner in utter terror because ... I don't wanna die!
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: paddykafka on 06 March, 2020, 08:33:45 PM
2000AD Squaxxes ...https://memes.getyarn.io/yarn-clip/8ffdaa45-b421-4689-85d6-e324d856920e

You hang in there, Funt and stay strong!
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Dandontdare on 06 March, 2020, 09:08:09 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/YYahq1u.jpg?1)
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: judgeurko on 06 March, 2020, 09:34:33 PM
Quote from: TordelBack on 05 March, 2020, 08:57:13 PM


Starting this in the full knowledge that this isn't going to be funny, and people you love are probably going to die before this is over. So I apologise for offence in advance.


WTF? You know this for a fact. What a morbid little soul you are.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Definitely Not Mister Pops on 06 March, 2020, 10:17:47 PM
Quote from: judgeurko on 06 March, 2020, 09:34:33 PM
Quote from: TordelBack on 05 March, 2020, 08:57:13 PM


Starting this in the full knowledge that this isn't going to be funny, and people you love are probably going to die before this is over. So I apologise for offence in advance.


WTF? You know this for a fact. What a morbid little soul you are.

Yeah Tordels, stop being so morbid. This time next year we'll all be laughing about this...







...well most of us will...
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Professor Bear on 06 March, 2020, 10:49:57 PM
Predicted global infection rate of 60-70% because of the lengthy incubation period in which the disease is transmissible but presents no symptoms, a 3% death rate that climbs higher with each new fatality (currently at 3.4% but I rounded down) - statistically, if you know 12 people who fit the mortality profile of being old, young, or having a medical condition, then you'll be going to a funeral in the next 12 months.
I tried to do the sums on this - 3% of 60% of 7.7 billion for the low-end number of eventual fatalities - but I don't know how to do percentages on a calculator so I will just assume the end number is not great.

Of course, maybe the government will contain this and we're worrying about nothing.  As long as someone competent is in charge and people's well-being is put before other considerations, this is still containable.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Steve Green on 06 March, 2020, 10:53:46 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ESaXzXaU0AEIXjL?format=jpg&name=medium)
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Funt Solo on 07 March, 2020, 12:31:37 AM
Quote from: Professor Bear on 06 March, 2020, 10:49:57 PM
Predicted global infection rate of 60-70% because of the lengthy incubation period in which the disease is transmissible but presents no symptoms, a 3% death rate that climbs higher with each new fatality (currently at 3.4% but I rounded down) - statistically, if you know 12 people who fit the mortality profile of being old, young, or having a medical condition, then you'll be going to a funeral in the next 12 months.
I tried to do the sums on this - 3% of 60% of 7.7 billion for the low-end number of eventual fatalities - but I don't know how to do percentages on a calculator so I will just assume the end number is not great.

Of course, maybe the government will contain this and we're worrying about nothing.  As long as someone competent is in charge and people's well-being is put before other considerations, this is still containable.

136.8 million.

Percentage on a calc is you divide by 100, so the sum was 0.03 * 0.6 * 7.7.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 07 March, 2020, 01:05:34 AM
Quote from: judgeurko on 06 March, 2020, 09:34:33 PM
Quote from: TordelBack on 05 March, 2020, 08:57:13 PM


Starting this in the full knowledge that this isn't going to be funny, and people you love are probably going to die before this is over. So I apologise for offence in advance.


WTF? You know this for a fact. What a morbid little soul you are.

I'll rephrase this: in my extremely amateur opinion, if we dont keep infection rates improbably low, and unless you dont love many elderly/vulnerable people, someone you love is probanly going to die of this shit in the next year or so. Better?

For myself, I love at least five people who absolutely must not catch this virus. I may be spoiled with living relatives, friends and in-laws of my and my parent's generation and/or with contraindicated health conditions whose loss in this disaster would break my heart, so I acknowledge that bias.

The rest is primary school maths. I hope I'm still as shit at it as my teachers said I was.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Tjm86 on 07 March, 2020, 08:02:09 AM
Quote from: Professor Bear on 06 March, 2020, 10:49:57 PM
.... a 3% death rate that climbs higher with each new fatality (currently at 3.4% but I rounded down) -

It is worth exercising caution on the mortality rate.  As a range of folks have observed, this is based on reported cases with more severe symptoms. The present infection rate is possibly higher which would affect these figures.  Ultimately what we are dealing with right now is a moving average with insufficient data points to be able to arrive at a  definitive figure.

Whilst Trump might not have been the most eloquent in his phraseology, his contention that the actual figure is closer to 1% is actually supported by experts (sorry Michael ...).

What is potentially more pertinent, and especially for those of us with older / infirm relatives, is the variability with age and comorbidity.  The figures are skewed heavily towards those in later years and with cardio-pulmonary conditions.  I guess the old 'an ounce of prevention is better than a ton of cure' is highly relevant here.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 07 March, 2020, 08:40:24 AM
The logic there is that actual infection numbers (X) are higher than detected/recorded, therefore mortality rates (Y) are lower. But (very crudely) No. of Deaths = X*Y, so I'm not sure that an increase in one term and reduction in the other is automatically as good as it sounds when it comes to numbers instead of rates.

Also, 1% is still terrible. The 2018 Irish flu season killed 250 directly plus 600 indirectly through pneumonia etc, at 0.1% mortality. At an equivalent infection rate, the low-end 1% rate for C-19 would 8,500.

And most significantly, that number is with flu vaccination uptake of over 70% of elderly and those with health-conditions, and over 50% of frontline health staff (although why that isn't 100% I don't understand).

It really is all about keeping the numbers of infections down.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IAMTHESYSTEM on 07 March, 2020, 09:47:46 AM
You could be cynical and argue a pandemic would be in a lot of people interests. It mainly affects the elderly and infirm, so why not let it circulate a little, relieving your society of financial burdens care wise? A cure or a vaccine might be six months away at the earliest, and there are already indications that it will be expensive. Opportunity for money-making abound in such a scenario, and I have no doubt Pharmacists will be posting excellent profits next year.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Tjm86 on 07 March, 2020, 10:20:51 AM
Quote from: TordelBack on 07 March, 2020, 08:40:24 AM
It really is all about keeping the numbers of infections down.

Aye.  Don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing that variance in the mortality rates is giving a rosier picture, just that there is a need to approach the data sensibly.  The simple fact of the matter is that it is a dynamic situation.

Someone from the WHO that has been out to China recently to examine their approach to the situation was talking on the radio this morning about their successes.  A lot has been made about the more 'draconian' measures that have been put in place but he offered up a different explanation.  More about the other areas of China rather than the epicentre.

As he noted, community response contributed significantly to lower rates of transmission as individuals took responsibility for their own health.  Individuals were taking effective steps to avoid transmission and there was a sense of collective responsibility.  Communities are, as he argued, the most effective early warning system.  Locating and isolating quickly is key.

Perhaps part of the problem we may face is a more individualistic / entitled culture?  The tendency to blame rather than own, to want to claim rather than act more responsibly?  People have been taking the p*** out of Johnson for his comments about washing hands but simple personal responsibility such as effective hygiene is what the medics recommend.

Much as it pains me, Thatcher had a bit of a point with the old "there is no such thing as society, only the individual."  Society only works when individuals recognise their rights and their responsibilities.  It got totally bastardised along the way but there is something valid at its core.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 07 March, 2020, 10:46:11 AM
QuoteSociety only works when individuals recognise their rights and their responsibilities. 

Uncanny - was only talking about this last night, about how infantilised people's reactions have become about accepting blame. Very few people accept responsibility for their actions - it always seems to be the fault of something else. As a result, there's no ownership, no learning, no growing, and no positive collective improvement for society. Society starts with personal responsibility.

I think the discussion arose due to behaviour on the roads. For example, around our way folk seem to be treating red lights as advisory. Then when accidents inevitably happen the response is "well, that's a stupid place to put the lights" or "they never stay green long enough so I'm forced to race the red" etc etc etc.

So if that failure of personal responsibility is happening when folk are in charge of a tonne of fast moving dangerous machinery, which then is collectively becoming a societal issue, I dread to thing how this sense of individual entitlement will affect the spread of this virus.

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 07 March, 2020, 12:56:47 PM

Fascinating conversation, chaps - seriously.

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 07 March, 2020, 01:53:28 PM
An interesting theme came up at a work drinks last night, from a few independent sources. The type of responses to this crisis that we are prepared to entertain are very telling. We had found ourselves saying things like "they can't cancel Cheltenham!", "they can't lay us off and trap us on our homes for a month!" or (for one developed example) "they can't close the schools, think what it'll do to exam results, and the knock-on on for college places!".

And then there's this moment of realisation that we made all this shit up - we decided (for example) how education works, when terms are, how university admission works. These aren't properties of the universe, they aren't real - and we don't need to be bound by them, we can change them any way we see fit in the service of things that are real: life, health, a future.

As a group of archaeologists, we above all people should already have been conscious of just how momentary, how contingent, how atypical our way of life is. But faced with an immediate unavoidable global crisis, for the first time in our pampered peacetime lives, it actually broke through. We can change everything if we need to, just as people always have. Parades, holidays, sporting events - all this stuff seems like it has to be, but it wasn't and it doesn't.

Sophmoric drink-fuelled pablum, I grant you- but the interesting bit was the realisation that maybe the instant scalding effect of a probable pandemic can help with the boiling-a-frog problem of climate change. Maybe learning suddenly and collectively as a society that we can contemplate radically adapting our ways of life in order to sustain our one-and-only lives will grant us the courage to do the same for climate.

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Tjm86 on 07 March, 2020, 06:40:04 PM
Funnily enough there have been discussions around what to do if the scare affects schools and colleges.  Universities debating how to reschedule the start of the year, primary schools talking about cancelling SATs and league tables ...

It's quite amazing how liberating it is when you realise that you can let go of crap that you thought was so important (okay, but I'm not giving up the Tooth ...)
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: pauljholden on 07 March, 2020, 06:49:45 PM
Can assure you, the entire creative community has been self-isolating for decades...
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: paddykafka on 07 March, 2020, 07:24:36 PM
If I had my way, any bastard found profiteering from this virus and the - entirely understandable - fear it is causing in people, would be stood up against a wall and shot.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/world/hand-sanitisers-selling-for-more-than-5000-above-recommended-uk-prices-online-986438.html

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Tjm86 on 07 March, 2020, 07:31:51 PM
Quote from: pauljholden on 07 March, 2020, 06:49:45 PM
Can assure you, the entire creative community has been self-isolating for decades...

... and has been frequently observed recently, so is our inestimable Prime Minister ...
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 08 March, 2020, 11:57:25 AM
North Italy now in lockdown. 1200 new confirmed cases in 24h. Everyone suddenly discovering what 'exponential' means. And we are, what, a week behind? No chance of shutting the door before the horse bolts.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: sheridan on 08 March, 2020, 01:47:28 PM
Quote from: shaolin_monkey on 07 March, 2020, 10:46:11 AM
I think the discussion arose due to behaviour on the roads. For example, around our way folk seem to be treating red lights as advisory. Then when accidents inevitably happen the response is "well, that's a stupid place to put the lights" or "they never stay green long enough so I'm forced to race the red" etc etc etc.

So if that failure of personal responsibility is happening when folk are in charge of a tonne of fast moving dangerous machinery, which then is collectively becoming a societal issue, I dread to thing how this sense of individual entitlement will affect the spread of this virus.
Tell me about it - I pass about six or seven junctions every day where between two to four cars, vans and lorries go through red lights every single time the lights change (they also have to screech around a corner on a few of the junctions).
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: moly on 08 March, 2020, 05:56:51 PM
Hoping Italy is the exception and not the norm, figures just released are horrendous 133 dead in one day, 25% increase in infections, if I was religious I'd pray
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 08 March, 2020, 06:54:32 PM
Even our HSE are now openly 'preparing' for the median guess of 40% infection. That's 500,000 requiring hospitalisation, which is like a sick joke.  And depending on the pace of spread, my amateur calculations put that at a (conservative) outcome of 50,000 dead.

I went to my parents today to beg them not to go out to any shop or public place, i would deliver anything they needed but if they didn't take this absolutely seriously I would likely not be seeing one or other of them again. They are both pushing 80, my Dad is a diabetic with two types of  advanced cancer and a history of heart disease, and my mother is exhausted caring for him.  I told them that when they were suffocating to death on a blanket on the floor of the parish hall I wouldn't be permitted to visit them, and there'd likely be no funeral. I hope I got through, but I doubt it.

Call me morbid, call me cruel, call me psychotic. This is where I believe we are.

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Tiplodocus on 08 March, 2020, 07:20:08 PM
The fannies downp our way have emptied the shelves of loo roll.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 08 March, 2020, 08:05:03 PM
There's selfishness and then there's selfishness!
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: JayzusB.Christ on 08 March, 2020, 09:45:32 PM
Quote from: TordelBack on 08 March, 2020, 06:54:32 PM
Even our HSE are now openly 'preparing' for the median guess of 40% infection. That's 500,000 requiring hospitalisation, which is like a sick joke.  And depending on the pace of spread, my amateur calculations put that at a (conservative) outcome of 50,000 dead.

I went to my parents today to beg them not to go out to any shop or public place, i would deliver anything they needed but if they didn't take this absolutely seriously I would likely not be seeing one or other of them again. They are both pushing 80, my Dad is a diabetic with two types of  advanced cancer and a history of heart disease, and my mother is exhausted caring for him.  I told them that when they were suffocating to death on a blanket on the floor of the parish hall I wouldn't be permitted to visit them, and there'd likely be no funeral. I hope I got through, but I doubt it.

Call me morbid, call me cruel, call me psychotic. This is where I believe we are.

I really hope your folks are ok.  My parents are of a similar age - my dad is ridiculously healthy despite daily blood-thinning medication, but my mam is struggling with a heart problem that led to a minor stroke two years ago.  They live in a fairly rural part of a small town, so I hope that goes some way towards keeping them safe.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Rately on 09 March, 2020, 10:17:49 AM
Wishing all of you and yours the best folks. My partner is type 1 Diabetic, and between this and the coming Brexit worries over insulin, it is just a very worrying and uncertain time.

Things look to be taking a dark turn in some parts of the world, and to see the ignorance and lack of empathy on display in some quarters just makes me despair.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Buttonman on 09 March, 2020, 07:15:28 PM
Quote from: Tiplodocus on 08 March, 2020, 07:20:08 PM
The fannies downp our way have emptied the shelves of loo roll.

Arseholes surely?
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Funt Solo on 09 March, 2020, 08:36:36 PM
Fannies are arseholes, where I live.

(Not a sentence I ever imagined using.)
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: JayzusB.Christ on 09 March, 2020, 09:57:49 PM
To paraphrase Bill Bryson: 'Americans. They call a slut a tramp, a tramp a bum, a bum a fanny, and a fanny... well, we've covered that.'

The Paddy's Day festivities have been cancelled, all over the country. A shame, but it's definitely the right thing to do.

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: ZenArcade on 10 March, 2020, 09:48:04 AM
My take simply is the evident inertia on behalf of the authorities has a purpose.  They've simply done a numbers game and figured 40 - 80% of the population will contract the virus and anywhere between 1 - 4% will die. 

They'll attempt to gradually raise the intensity of counter-measures in an effort to retard the spread and give medical services time to: A - Cope with the spread and B - Hopefully come up with a workable anti-virus treatment in 10 - 12 months time.

The difficulties are, I suppose, the arguably cynical nature of any numbers game where people and populations are concerned, coupled with the unknowns re the strength of the virus in question and the stresses on an already denuded public health infra-structure and the economy in general.  Z
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 10 March, 2020, 11:12:41 AM
The UK should be doing an Italy right now, and supporting gig economy workers and the vulnerable. We are a week ahead, and can use that time or not. The not option results in a slew of infections very rapidly, and an overwhelmed health service where there just aren't enough ventilators and ICU places.

Right now, our government looks out of its depth – like rabbits in headlights. It's all but admitted defeat in terms of containment. But doing an Italy next week will be too late. (Notably, the corporate I write for accelerated its contingency planning. So they've already tested 100% WFH with my team and presumably most others. Any company that has the capability to do this should be trying the same right now.)
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Professor Bear on 10 March, 2020, 11:28:00 AM
Isn't a pandemic caused by not giving the serving staff some days off the premise of Kids Rule OK?  I'd suggest Rebellion get on a collected edition, but most of the target audience won't be around to read it.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 10 March, 2020, 11:51:40 AM
Locals are being complacent and arguing everything will be fine. Meanwhile, our town now has a confirmed case – one of the Natwest bank staff. So the branch is closed and everyone who works there is self-isolating for a week. But that means every person who recently went in there is now at risk, and those who they interacted with, and...

I was at the GP's earlier, and overheard staff talking about someone self-isolating and saying (sadly) "and we've done all we can for them". Quite why the government is just bobbling along with this, I've no idea. (My guess: the UK will end up shut down within a fortnight when infections sky-rocket, when the damage could have been limited.)
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 10 March, 2020, 02:01:13 PM
Irish funeral directors association have today advised no funerals for C-19 victims, due mainly to the high risk to their staff that family members are also infected.

We're now just a hop and a skip away from 'wrap the family member's body in a black binliner and place outside the front door for collection".
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Tjm86 on 10 March, 2020, 02:08:45 PM
TBH I get some of the reservations over shutting everything down just yet.  What baffles me though is that foreign travel is still being allowed to go on, particularly things like school trips to Disneyland Paris.  Send kids crammed on a coach for several hours to a site visited by people from all over Europe, bring them back on the same coach, and pray that they dodged the bullet?

Kids might be disappointed at missing out on the trip but isn't that a small price to pay?  Or am I just being naive?
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 10 March, 2020, 02:29:23 PM
I don't think you are. Kids from our town last week went on a skiing trip to Italy, despite Italian ski resorts being a key infection vector. Kids will probably mostly be fine. Reports suggest if they get anything at all, it's a bit of a sore throat. But infections blaze around schools, infect staff, end up with parents, and end up with grandparents. It can all happen insanely quickly.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: JayzusB.Christ on 10 March, 2020, 02:53:00 PM
I work in an English school. We have a small staff room and share classrooms.  One of our teachers was off today with restricted breathing and a temperature.  I'll keep yous posted.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: paddykafka on 10 March, 2020, 08:05:23 PM
Hell's Bells, Jayzus! Keeping my fingers crossed that you and yours will be okay. Ditto for Tordelback and, it goes without saying - but I'll say it anyway! - all the rest of my fellow Squaxx.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: JayzusB.Christ on 10 March, 2020, 10:08:06 PM
Thanks, Paddy. You stay safe too; you've been through the wars lately!

BTW I sent you a pm recently, not sure if you got it.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Tjm86 on 10 March, 2020, 10:25:43 PM
Quote from: JayzusB.Christ on 10 March, 2020, 02:53:00 PM
I work in an English school.

Sheesh!  Those bloody English ...

Take care though.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 11 March, 2020, 12:15:54 AM
Right. I will apologise if this seems alarmist, but I read it and my blood ran cold. If this info is correct I feel it is more dangerous not to post it.

Below is the English translation of a post that appears to be from an ICU physician in Bergamo, Dr. Daniele Macchini.

Original website here:

https://www.ecodibergamo.it/stories/bergamo-citta/con-le-nostre-azioni-influenziamola-vita-e-la-morte-di-molte-persone_1344030_11/

Translated from the Italian:

«With our actions we influence the life and death of many people »

With a long post on Facebook, Dr. Daniele Macchini, a doctor at Humanitas Gavazzeni, talks about his life on the front lines to combat coronavirus.  It is a creepy testimony, to be read from the first to the last line.


The post reads:

In one of the constant emails that I receive from my health department on a more than daily basis now these days, there was also a paragraph entitled "doing social responsibly", with some recommendations that can only be supported.  After thinking for a long time if and what to write about what is happening to us, I felt that the silence was not at all responsible.  I will therefore try to convey to people "not involved in the work" and more distant from our reality, what we are experiencing in Bergamo during these pandemic days from Covid-19.  I understand the need not to panic, but when the message of the danger of what is happening does not reach people and I still feel who cares about the recommendations and people who gather together complaining that they cannot go to the gym or be able to do soccer tournaments  I shudder.

I also understand the economic damage and I am also worried about that.  After the epidemic, the tragedy will start again.  However, apart from the fact that we are literally also devastating our NHS from an economic point of view, I allow myself to raise the importance of the health damage that is likely throughout the country and I find it nothing short of "chilling" for example  that a red zone already requested by the region has not yet been established for the municipalities of Alzano Lombardo and Nembro (I would like to clarify that this is pure personal opinion).

I myself looked with some amazement at the reorganizations of the entire hospital in the previous week, when our current enemy was still in the shadows: the wards slowly "emptied", the elective activities interrupted, the intensive therapies freed to create  as many beds as possible.  Containers arriving in front of the emergency room to create diversified routes and avoid any infections.  All this rapid transformation brought in the corridors of the hospital an atmosphere of surreal silence and emptiness that we still did not understand, waiting for a war that was yet to begin and that many (including me) were not so sure would never come with such ferocity  .  (I open a parenthesis: all this in silence and without publicity, while several newspapers had the courage to say that private health care was not doing anything).

I still remember my night guard a week ago passed unnecessarily without turning a blind eye, waiting for a call from the microbiology of the Sack.  I was waiting for the outcome of a swab on the first suspected patient in our hospital, thinking about what consequences it would have for us and the clinic.  If I think about it, my agitation for one possible case seems almost ridiculous and unjustified, now that I have seen what is happening.

Well, the situation is now nothing short of dramatic.  No other words come to mind.  The war has literally exploded and the battles are uninterrupted day and night.  One after the other, the unfortunate poor come to the emergency room.  They have anything but the complications of a flu.  Let's stop saying it's a bad flu.  In these 2 years I have learned that the people of Bergamo do not come to the emergency room at all.  They did well this time too.  They followed all the indications given: a week or ten days at home with a fever without going out and risking contagion, but now they can't take it anymore.  They don't breathe enough, they need oxygen.

Drug therapies for this virus are few.  The course mainly depends on our organism.  We can only support it when it can't take it anymore.  It is mainly hoped that our body will eradicate the virus on its own, let's face it.  Antiviral therapies are experimental on this virus and we learn its behavior day after day.  Staying at home until the symptoms worsen does not change the prognosis of the disease.

Now, however, that need for beds in all its drama has arrived.  One after the other, the departments that had been emptied are filling up at an impressive rate.  The display boards with the names of the patients, in different colors depending on the operating unit they belong to, are now all red and instead of the surgical operation there is the diagnosis, which is always the same damn: bilateral interstitial pneumonia.

Now, tell me which flu virus causes such a rapid tragedy.  Because that's the difference (now I'm going down a bit in the technical field): in the classical flu, apart from infecting much less population over several months, cases can be complicated less frequently, only when the VIRUS destroying the protective barriers of the  Our respiratory tract allows BACTERIA normally resident in the upper tract to invade the bronchi and lungs, causing more serious cases.  Covid 19 causes a banal influence in many young people, but in many elderly people (and not only) a real SARS because it arrives directly in the alveoli of the lungs and infects them making them unable to perform their function.  The resulting respiratory failure is often serious and after a few days of hospitalization, the simple oxygen that can be administered in a ward may not be enough.

Sorry, but to me as a doctor it doesn't reassure you that the most serious are mainly elderly people with other pathologies.  The elderly population is the most represented in our country and it is difficult to find someone who, above 65 years of age, does not take at least the tablet for pressure or diabetes.  I also assure you that when you see young people who end up in intubated intensive care, pronated or worse in ECMO (a machine for the worst cases, which extracts the blood, re-oxygenates it and returns it to the body, waiting for the organism,  hopefully, heal your lungs), all this tranquility for your young age passes.

And while there are still people on social networks who pride themselves on not being afraid by ignoring the indications, protesting that their normal lifestyle habits are "temporarily" in crisis, the epidemiological disaster is taking place.  And there are no more surgeons, urologists, orthopedists, we are only doctors who suddenly become part of a single team to face this tsunami that has overwhelmed us.  The cases multiply, we arrive at the rate of 15-20 hospitalizations a day all for the same reason.  The results of the swabs now come one after the other: positive, positive, positive.  Suddenly the emergency room is collapsing.

Emergency provisions are issued: help is needed in the emergency room.  A quick meeting to learn how the first aid management software works and a few minutes later they are already downstairs, next to the warriors on the war front.  The screen of the PC with the reasons for the access is always the same: fever and respiratory difficulty, fever and cough, respiratory insufficiency etc ... Exams, radiology always with the same sentence: bilateral interstitial pneumonia, bilateral interstitial pneumonia, bilateral interstitial pneumonia.  All to be hospitalized.  Someone already to intubate and go to intensive care.  For others it is late ...

Intensive care becomes saturated, and where intensive care ends, more are created.  Each fan becomes like gold: those of the operating rooms that have now suspended their non-urgent activity become places for intensive care that did not exist before.  I found it incredible, or at least I can speak for Humanitas Gavazzeni (where I work) how it was possible to put in place in such a short time a deployment and a reorganization of resources so finely designed to prepare for a disaster of this magnitude.  And every reorganization of beds, wards, staff, work shifts and tasks is constantly reviewed day after day to try to give everything and even more.

Those wards that previously looked like ghosts are now saturated, ready to try to give their best for the sick, but exhausted.  The staff is exhausted.  I saw fatigue on faces that didn't know what it was despite the already grueling workloads they had.  I have seen people still stop beyond the times they used to stop already, for overtime that was now habitual.  I saw solidarity from all of us, who never failed to go to our internist colleagues to ask "what can I do for you now?"  or "leave that hospitalization alone."  Doctors who move beds and transfer patients, who administer therapies instead of nurses.  Nurses with tears in their eyes because we are unable to save everyone and the vital signs of several patients at the same time reveal a fate that has already been marked.

There are no more shifts, schedules.  Social life is suspended for us.  I have been separated for a few months, and I assure you that I have always done everything possible to constantly see my son even on the days of taking the night off, without sleeping and postponing sleep until when I am without him, but for almost 2 weeks I have not voluntarily  I see neither my son nor my family members for fear of infecting them and in turn infecting an elderly grandmother or relatives with other health problems.  I'm happy with some photos of my son that I regard between tears and a few video calls.

So be patient too, you can't go to the theater, museums or gym.  Try to have mercy on that myriad of older people you could exterminate.  It is not your fault, I know, but of those who put it in your head that you are exaggerating and even this testimony may seem just an exaggeration for those who are far from the epidemic, but please, listen to us, try to leave the house only to  indispensable things.  Do not go en masse to stock up in supermarkets: it is the worst thing because you concentrate and the risk of contacts with infected people who do not know they are higher.  You can go there as you usually do.  Maybe if you have a normal mask (even those that are used to do certain manual work) put it on.  Don't look for ffp2 or ffp3.  Those should serve us and we are beginning to struggle to find them.  By now we have had to optimize their use only in certain circumstances, as the WHO recently suggested in view of their almost ubiquitous impoverishment.

Oh yes, thanks to the shortage of certain devices, I and many other colleagues are certainly exposed despite all the means of protection we have.  Some of us have already become infected despite the protocols.  Some infected colleagues also have infected relatives and some of their family members are already struggling between life and death.  We are where your fears could make you stay away.  Try to make sure you stay away.  Tell your family members who are elderly or with other illnesses to stay indoors.  Bring him the groceries please.

We have no alternative.  It's our job.  In fact, what I do these days is not really the job I'm used to, but I do it anyway and I will like it as long as it responds to the same principles: try to make some sick people feel better and heal, or even just alleviate the suffering and the  pain to those who unfortunately cannot heal.

On the other hand, I don't spend many words about the people who define us heroes these days and who until yesterday were ready to insult and report us.  Both will return to insult and report as soon as everything is over.  People forget everything quickly.  And we're not even heroes these days.  It's our job.  We risked something bad every day before: when we put our hands in a belly full of blood of someone we don't even know if he has HIV or hepatitis C;  when we do it even if we know that he has HIV or hepatitis C;  when we sting with the one with HIV and take the drugs that make us vomit from morning to night for a month.  When we open with the usual anguish the results of the examinations at the various checks after an accidental puncture hoping not to be infected.  We simply earn our living with something that gives us emotions.  It doesn't matter if they are beautiful or ugly, just take them home.

In the end we only try to make ourselves useful for everyone.  Now try to do it too though: with our actions we influence the life and death of a few dozen people.  You with yours, many more.  Please share and share the message.  We must spread the word to prevent what is happening here in Italy.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 11 March, 2020, 12:29:57 AM
It appears to be real:

https://www.facebook.com/100000176383731/posts/3395152210500625/?d=n
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 11 March, 2020, 07:04:56 AM
I suspect the UK will follow Italy's lockdown, but it will also be after the horse has bolted. Italy had an excuse: it didn't know what it was dealing with. We do – and our government isn't up to the task.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IAMTHESYSTEM on 11 March, 2020, 11:32:13 AM
With quite a lot of elderly conservative voters under threat from this Coronavirus, you'd think the Government would be more proactive, concerned that its core voter block might become depleted by this growing epidemic. Now the Health Minister Nadine Norries has tested positive for Coronavirus, a massive blow against 'situation under control' both in metaphor and reassurance. There appears to be no plan, except to take the hit and hope it's not too catastrophic.   
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Cyberleader2000 on 11 March, 2020, 12:49:22 PM
so I live in Tewkesbury and I'm now anoyed with Cheltenham they decided to not stop Race week people come all acros the contrey for that event some even come from abord, I feel this was a really stupid move.
it dosent help that ~I need to go out today to a meeting and have to take a bus or a 50 minute walk since the bus I need to take passes through Cheltenham, and of corses everon in my area is eaither like it will be fine, I even know people who just think its a nastey cold. then theres the panic buyers enough said about them.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: paddykafka on 11 March, 2020, 02:10:26 PM
I share your annoyance, Cyberleader. Had there been an outbreak of Foot and Mouth, you can be damn sure that the entire event would have been cancelled. I'm even more pissed off with the selfish, stupid morons who travelled here from the Emerald Isle to a venue - that will attract crowds of up to 65,000 - where they could quite possibly contract this virus, bring it back to this country and potentially infect thousands more. Absolute and utter wank-stains, every fucking one of them!
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Rately on 11 March, 2020, 03:39:19 PM
Stories leaking out on Facebook / Whatsapp that a Department For Communities Office in Belfast has been shut down, with staff not allowed to leave building, an entire floor shut off whilst they await the arrival of higher management to make an announcement.

Bizarrely, the fella who made the post on a Facebook group, has now taken the post down. I used to work with him, and am finding this all rather bizarre, frightening and wondering when some proper leadership and assurances will be provided by my management, my elected representatives and actual people who know what they are talking about!

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 11 March, 2020, 05:20:52 PM
Quote from: paddykafka on 11 March, 2020, 02:10:26 PMAbsolute and utter wank-stains, every fucking one of them!

There are people on Irish social media this very minute offering their oh-so-edgy opinion that C-19 only kills those who "are waiting at Death's door anyway" so we should just carry on as normal and escape economic ruin.  I think if we're going to take this pragmatic tone, everyone returning from Cheltenham should be quickly and humanely killed before they have a chance to kill their parents - and mine.

As the WHO conference today said, the real problem is that our social and health systems are pared to the bone, and have zero capacity to absorb this kind of crisis. In the light of onrushing climate collapse, I pray to my atheist gods that that we learn this lesson.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Tjm86 on 11 March, 2020, 05:28:36 PM
Time and again I am so grateful that I use SM sparingly.  That said, MSM can be just as bad.  Some of the stories the Express is peddling are beyond belief. 

So now the WHO has called this a pandemic and is scathing about the international response.  Even Trump is trying to walk back his earlier blasé attitude it seems.  The overriding message seems to be though that neoliberalism is about to come up against some pretty harsh truths.  A decade of cutting back on those seeming inessentials ...
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Cyberleader2000 on 11 March, 2020, 08:13:01 PM
Quote from: TordelBack on 11 March, 2020, 05:20:52 PM
Quote from: paddykafka on 11 March, 2020, 02:10:26 PMAbsolute and utter wank-stains, every fucking one of them!

There are people on Irish social media this very minute offering their oh-so-edgy opinion that C-19 only kills those who "are waiting at Death's door anyway" so we should just carry on as normal and escape economic ruin.  I think if we're going to take this pragmatic tone, everyone returning from Cheltenham should be quickly and humanely killed before they have a chance to kill their parents - and mine.

Don't get me started I has asma and the last 3 times I've had a cold I got a chest infection the first one and the last 2 times I got close to having one. So I'm rather conserened with getting this bug, but people tell me I should not worry and it's just a nasty cold that affects people with health problems. But I can't think of it just affecting me there's my brother and my gran who I help and support so I have to be super carfule. And for the first time since my dad died am I a little glad he isent round as he had COPD and if he was still around I know I would have been loosing my mind with stress from people's lack of care and awereness.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: JOE SOAP on 11 March, 2020, 08:55:20 PM
Quote from: Rately on 11 March, 2020, 03:39:19 PM
Stories leaking out on Facebook / Whatsapp that a Department For Communities Office in Belfast has been shut down, with staff not allowed to leave building, an entire floor shut off whilst they await the arrival of higher management to make an announcement.

Bizarrely, the fella who made the post on a Facebook group, has now taken the post down. I used to work with him, and am finding this all rather bizarre, frightening and wondering when some proper leadership and assurances will be provided by my management, my elected representatives and actual people who know what they are talking about!

The whole island needs a cross-border disease policy. There was a reason Foot and Mouth never took hold in Ireland but catastrophic in Britain.

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 11 March, 2020, 10:01:07 PM
So my workplace is on a war footing. Lots of advice and updates issued daily via HR, loads of signs and hand sanitizers going up everywhere.  Recalled 500 laptops from around the business, big discussions about setting up work-from-home remote access as quickly as possible for essential and high risk staff. I'm on that list due to asthma. It's quite reassuring - more so than the pathetic response from our glorious Dicktator Johnson.

Someone in the office opposite us was a confirmed case. The entire building has been shut down for a deep clean.

If I get this virus I am in trouble. My asthma has almost killed me once already - I really don't think I'll make it through a bout of bilateral interstitial pneumonia, which appears to be what is causing the high mortality rate in the folk over 60 who contract COVID-19.


Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 11 March, 2020, 10:14:22 PM
Stsy safe, Shaolin-monkey. It's bloody scary.

Talked to my eldest lad tonight about pulling him out of school, whether it would affect any of his continual assessment work.  He wants to stay in until Friday, as it turns out that all week they've been prepping over a month's worth of projects and assignments that they can do and submit through OneNote, with the understanding that attending school is probably finished from Paddy's Day until May.

Finally some f**king sense. Hats off to those teachers.

And the lad himself: I'm trying to imagine a single day in my school career where I would have turned down an offer from my Dad to not go in in te morning, just so I can finish setting out a month of homework...
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: von Boom on 11 March, 2020, 11:53:47 PM
It's very scary out there at the moment so everyone be safe. However, it seems there is some hopeful news coming out of Italy. An anti-inflammatory drug used in rheumatoid arthritis is working to help a patient with a.Covid-19 breath again.

https://twitter.com/laoneill111/status/1237796973383749633 (https://twitter.com/laoneill111/status/1237796973383749633)
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Rately on 12 March, 2020, 08:17:01 AM
Quote from: JOE SOAP on 11 March, 2020, 08:55:20 PM
Quote from: Rately on 11 March, 2020, 03:39:19 PM
Stories leaking out on Facebook / Whatsapp that a Department For Communities Office in Belfast has been shut down, with staff not allowed to leave building, an entire floor shut off whilst they await the arrival of higher management to make an announcement.

Bizarrely, the fella who made the post on a Facebook group, has now taken the post down. I used to work with him, and am finding this all rather bizarre, frightening and wondering when some proper leadership and assurances will be provided by my management, my elected representatives and actual people who know what they are talking about!

The whole island needs a cross-border disease policy. There was a reason Foot and Mouth never took hold in Ireland but catastrophic in Britain.

Totally agree.

They need to take the politics out of this, and agree a joint strategy. Common sense in short supply, though.

The news out of Italy is horrendous. To think the UK Government seem paralysed, and not willing to make the decisions needed just shows what an absolutely horrendous mess we have all made of things. Then you see Trump's Address.. Christ. We are just lurching from shit show to shit show.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 12 March, 2020, 08:36:46 AM
I'd like to say I can't believe what Trump is saying, but of course I can. Playing childish 'See? See? Those no-good wops and dagos!' dishonest, divisive Brexit politics with a pandemic: I try to never wish harm on people, but I hope he gets a damned good dose of 'no worse than the flu, you can just work through it'. 

Half of the construction site I'm currently working were off at Cheltenham this week, and the most of them are off to a three-day open-bar wedding in Killarney today. Come next week this place is going to be ground zero. 

Yesterday some tosspot lifted all the toilet roll from both the jacks and the supply cupboard.

I'm now keeping the (newly bought, hard won) supply, along with the hand sanitiser refills, in my boot, and bringing it in one roll at a time as needed: although maybe I should go the Immortan Joe route and stand on the roof of my Ford Ka shouting "I am your redeemer!  It is by my hand that you will wipe poop from the bottom of the world!".  If it falls to one to establish the new world order, best to place oneself on the milking stool.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Tjm86 on 12 March, 2020, 08:45:55 AM
The other disturbing aspect of this is that this is an infectious disease that is going to affect a lot of folks but they will recover from it.  Before shouting me down on this, I'm not trying to be blasé about the affect on high risk groups.  What I am suggesting is that this could potentially be a dress rehearsal for escalation in the effects of climate change.

It is not unreasonable to expect that future events could see the size and structure of 'vulnerable groups' increase substantially.  In fact you could argue that this is already the case but the disjointed and disconnected nature of events is obscuring comprehension of the full scale.  It's a bit like Niemoller's poem but on a global scale.

Then again, perhaps this will be the wake up call that is needed?
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 12 March, 2020, 09:19:43 AM
That's my hope too, Tjm - the only potential good I can see in all this. Our tax/services/economy model has been shown to be completely indequate, the global.equivalent of living on your credit card and hoping for the best. Imagine if instead of pouring  trillions into imperialist military projects in the middle east and billions into nationalist fiascos closer to home, we'd actually put something into global preparedness and resilient care for the most vulnerable.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 12 March, 2020, 09:26:47 AM
UK response is baffling. *Planning* to *possibly* legislate on social interaction policy *next week*. It's not like there's any urgency!
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Rately on 12 March, 2020, 10:12:44 AM
Another nothing update from Management this morning.

Contingency plan in place to keep Office open, regardless of members of staff going off sick and hopes that "It isn't as bad as we are expecting..."




Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 12 March, 2020, 10:24:49 AM
My employers emailed me a couple of posters to print and put up in the site office, added a bit about hand washing and self-isolating to the Safety Statement and suggested I buy some hand sanitiser (and keep the receipt).

Clearly we are prepared.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: paddykafka on 12 March, 2020, 10:31:52 AM
Quote from: TordelBack on 11 March, 2020, 10:14:22 PM

And the lad himself: I'm trying to imagine a single day in my school career where I would have turned down an offer from my Dad to not go in in te morning, just so I can finish setting out a month of homework...

Honestly, young people these days, eh?  ::)

Potentially, some good news on the horizon, as suggested by Professor Luke O'Neill in the clip from yesterday's The Pat Kenny Show on Newstalk. And apparently, there's an Anti-Inflammatory drug - normally used to treat Rheumatoid Arthritis - that is proving to be effective in tackling the lung symptoms. Perhaps a small chink of light shining into these dark times? Worth a listen to, anyway.

https://www.newstalk.com/podcasts/highlights-from-the-pat-kenny-show/race-find-coronavirus-vaccine



Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 12 March, 2020, 10:58:30 AM
The missus, who works in the support office of a very well-known high street company, has been told that effective as of tomorrow she, and literally everyone else they could get a laptop for, will be working from home for at least two weeks.

Meanwhile, we are now at the point of begging her mother to take this seriously. The mother-in-law's in at-risk group and her partner is older, has diabetes, high blood pressure and a heart condition — there is a very real chance that COVID-19 will kill him and no amount of blitz spirit and upper-lip-stiffening will change that simple fact.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Professor Bear on 12 March, 2020, 11:01:48 AM
The UK government has made its policy clear: it wants people to become infected and thus create "herd immunity", and given that they got away with killing 150 thousand (and counting) through austerity measures, I don't see them being held to account for this by our venal media class (https://twitter.com/Peston/status/1238030855584526336), either.

Lots of people will recover from this and they'll be young, workers, scared into a reactionary worldview, and meanwhile the victims will  be freeing up welfare money, homes, and even jobs - you have to ask what the downside is for a political class that has already doubled its wealth through a quiet genocide of the most vulnerable.  It's not that these bastards are incompetent, it's that they've been given the numbers by people who know what they're talking about and decided it's worth rolling the dice on letting us die.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Tjm86 on 12 March, 2020, 11:07:07 AM
Quote from: Cyberleader2000 on 11 March, 2020, 12:49:22 PM
so I live in Tewkesbury ... ~I need to go out today to a meeting and have to take a bus or a 50 minute walk since the bus I need to take passes through Cheltenham,

Buses running then are they?  Considering the weather I'd have thought a boat would have been better?  We moved out about 30 years ago (bugger, that long ago! Paper round from Smiths .... Making fishing tackle at Ryobi Masterline ... ) and flooding was bad enough then.  Now some lunatic has built a supermarket and massive housing estate on the fields that were flooded every year and people are surprised to find their homes regularly flooding?  That's got to do wonders for the health of local residents!
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 12 March, 2020, 11:22:21 AM
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 12 March, 2020, 10:58:30 AM
Meanwhile, we are now at the point of begging her mother to take this seriously. The mother-in-law's in at-risk group and her partner is older, has diabetes, high blood pressure and a heart condition — there is a very real chance that COVID-19 will kill him and no amount of blitz spirit and upper-lip-stiffening will change that simple fact.

We've tried everything with my 92-year old aunt, to no avail. The threat of no funerals scared her briefly, but then some Dept of Health prat came on radio and said that was an overreaction and out she toddled to M&S.

So we had a long talk about it last night and we've decided we've done all we can to keep her safe have to let her go her own way - after complications from a fall and a dose of flu she ignored the doctors and discharged herself from hospital on Christmas Day, forcing us to drive an hour each way and deliver her back to her shitty home, she rejected the home care package it took us weeks of work to arrange, she refused her landlord's offer of hand railings, an accessible shower and modernised kitchen (it's rotting yellowed chipboard straight out of the 1950s, it's horrific)
and a staircase lift etc etc  - and now she won't take any C-19  precautions.

So after years of trying to persuade her to move closer to/in with us, and running ourselves ragged running up and down to her, we've now given up: so that's probably that for her, and we can concentrate on keeping our parents alive. Family triage, it's fucking heartbreaking.

I hope your MiL sees sense, Jim.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Rately on 12 March, 2020, 11:48:28 AM
Christ. Prayers and hopes for the best to you and yours. Nothing as hard as family.

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 12 March, 2020, 02:01:28 PM
And that's that.  In Ireland, all schools, colleges and childcare facilities to close tonight at 6, until 29 March - which will inevitably be extended until at least 20 April. This alone will take out about a sixth of the workforce. Next it's the pubs, then government services, public transport, then... what?

I'm increasingly convinced that it's really not a good thing to have read so much SF: each one of these stages and announcements has been done a hundred times, and they echo in my ears.  The bit where they close the schools is usually the end of the chapter right before the President reveals they have no plan, and we should all stay at home and try to die with dignity. If the protagonist is lucky they'll get to spend a chapter wandering around outside marveling at the quiet streets and empty playgrounds, as an unusually large flock of birds banks and twists in an unfamiliar fashion overhead. 
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Pyroxian on 12 March, 2020, 02:10:36 PM
Sounds like Ireland's doing the sensible thing to reduce transmissions and let the virus die out, as opposed to the UK which is basically just 'Carry On, Nothing's Wrong' (Which is still better than the US's response...)
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 12 March, 2020, 02:33:13 PM
Quote from: Pyroxian on 12 March, 2020, 02:10:36 PM
Sounds like Ireland's doing the sensible thing to reduce transmissions and let the virus die out...

That isn't going to happen, by all accounts. If we're very very lucky, we might reduce overall infections somewhat, but the plan (such as it is) is now in the 'Delay' phase: we've accepted that some huge proportion of the population are going to catch this thing, but we're trying to spread that inevitability out over as many months as possible so there is some slim hope of providing health services to the worst affected, and some form of society keeps ticking on. The alternative is that literal hell comes to visit all at once sometime later this month and 1000s die without care in horrible circumstances over a matter of weeks.

And I'm not making this shit up.  That's what the numbers, all the numbers, say.  And they've been saying the same thing for over a month now. I haven't slept much lately, as may be evident.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 12 March, 2020, 02:49:43 PM
People in Italy are referring to "wartime triage". In other words, save whoever you can – and whoever is most likely.

Mrs IP's now considering whether to jack in her part-time job and take mini-G out of school, and screw the consequences. (She has a school trip tomorrow, which is apparently still going ahead.)

Meanwhile, my parents (late 60s) are in Spain. They have a place there, and it's quite isolated. They could wait this out. It's the low-risk option. But my mum can't/won't drive out there, and they don't speak enough Spanish and so would need a translator if hospitalised. So they were asking what they should do – and what I would do. And I... don't know. The might be able to get a flight back on Saturday, but Gatwick is of course a massive infection vector.

Meanwhile, Boris Johnson seemingly thinking the smart move is to kill 2.5 million people is fucking insane.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: JayzusB.Christ on 12 March, 2020, 03:18:03 PM
Quote from: TordelBack on 12 March, 2020, 02:01:28 PM
And that's that.  In Ireland, all schools, colleges and childcare facilities to close tonight at 6, until 29 March - which will inevitably be extended until at least 20 April. This alone will take out about a sixth of the workforce. Next it's the pubs, then government services, public transport, then... what?



Well, that's me off for two weeks. And probably more.  We tried to teach our classes after the announcement but it was ridiculous trying to pretend things were normal and the students knew it.  So we cancelled everything and sent them home. 

On the plus side, my colleague who was off with a temperature and restricted breathing turned out only to have a throat infection. 
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: paddykafka on 12 March, 2020, 03:31:21 PM
Glad to hear that your colleague's illness wasn't as bad as you feared, Jayzus. Checked to see why you didn't get my reply to your PM and realised that I failed to spot the "Do Not Reply to this email" notice. Doh! Will send you a PM soon.

In other news, I'm already hearing reports of Panic buying going on in shops and supermarkets around the country. Some of the lyrics from "Life During Wartime" by Talking Heads seem scarily appropriate at the moment.

This ain't no party, this ain't no disco
This ain't no fooling around
No time for dancing, or lovey dovey
I ain't got time for that now

Heard about Houston? heard about Detroit?
Heard about Pittsburgh, PA?
You oughta know not to stand by the window
Somebody might see you up there
I got some groceries, some peanut butter
To last a couple of days
But I ain't got no speakers, ain't got no headphones
Ain't got no records to play
Why stay in college? why go to night school?
Gonna be different this time?
Can't write a letter, can't send a postcard
I can't write nothing at all
This ain't no party, this ain't no disco
This ain't no fooling around
I'd love to hold you, I'd like to kiss you
I ain't got no time for that now



Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Tjm86 on 12 March, 2020, 04:26:19 PM
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 12 March, 2020, 02:49:43 PM
(She has a school trip tomorrow, which is apparently still going ahead.)
....

Meanwhile, Boris Johnson seemingly thinking the smart move is to kill 2.5 million people is fucking insane.

Been chasing up with an upcoming trip our girls have at the end of the month to Disneyland Paris.  At the moment the trip organiser is trying to figure out which is the worst of the two evils: losing the money or putting the kids at risk.  My argument is that:
a) it is not exactly the kids that would be at risk, rather elderly and at-risk relatives;
b) if they do end up with self-isolation of someone while they are on the trip / Europe pulls a Trump and closes borders then that is likely to be a nightmare.
We'll take the hit on the money.  Sorry, consequences for others is just too much to think about.

As for Johnson, a couple of things occurs to me:
- he and other minister's have spent a lot of time talking about 'following the science'.  I hope those scientists realise what that could mean for them.
- he hasn't said what 'science' he is following.  Given Cummings' propensity for behavioural science and oddball thinking ...

Not good!
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Rately on 12 March, 2020, 04:37:30 PM
The blustering and bumbling act won't cut it now.

I would hope that those "fortunate" enough to get near him to ask questions don't lob snowballs, but hammer him with a sledgehammer.

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 12 March, 2020, 04:48:22 PM
Borders are a big issue. My parents were due back from Spain in a couple of weeks. They've decided to fly home this weekend instead, in part because they don't want to be stuck there. And they have an apartment. It'd be far worse in a tiny hotel room, potentially not being able to come home for days or even weeks.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Funt Solo on 12 March, 2020, 05:35:25 PM
Ooh wah, slarty var!

(https://www.fatowltees.com/cache/resized/h615/files/images/motive/logos/001/001686_39675.jpg)
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Tjm86 on 12 March, 2020, 06:28:51 PM
You know, I've been thinking about Tordel's comment about reading too much SF.  This is the bit that completely baffles me, fiction writers have gamed out pretty much every scenario going for an apocalyptic epidemic.  The common transmission factor is always international travel.  I'd bet that most governments around the world have war-gamed bio-warfare at one time or another, probably including such moves.

That being the case then, WHY THE HELL DID THEY KEEP LETTING PEOPLE TRAVEL?  Seriously.  The human race does not deserve to keep going!
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 12 March, 2020, 06:50:36 PM
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 12 March, 2020, 04:48:22 PM
Borders are a big issue. My parents were due back from Spain in a couple of weeks. They've decided to fly home this weekend instead, in part because they don't want to be stuck there. And they have an apartment. It'd be far worse in a tiny hotel room, potentially not being able to come home for days or even weeks.

I feel for them, IP. I have an international crew working with me, my wife has a US intern - they're all trying to judge when/if it's best to run for home. Very strange atmosphere.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Funt Solo on 12 March, 2020, 07:30:32 PM
Quote from: Tjm86 on 12 March, 2020, 06:28:51 PM
WHY THE HELL DID THEY KEEP LETTING PEOPLE TRAVEL?

Not to be too cheeky but that quote in US politics springs to mind: "It's the economy, stupid!"

(I don't think you're stupid, by the way. I think there's a strong dichotomy between stopping the virus and keeping the economy chundering along. Supply chains - the survivors will need those.)
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 12 March, 2020, 07:37:42 PM
Quote from: TordelBack on 12 March, 2020, 06:50:36 PMI feel for them, IP. I have an international crew working with me, my wife has a US intern - they're all trying to judge when/if it's best to run for home. Very strange atmosphere.
Where they are just got notified that the entire region is basically shutting down all municipal buildings, banning markets, and attempting to limit groups to under 30. This wouldn't have massively affected them, but my dad doesn't want to be "stuck" out there without medication (he has enough for three more weeks), and the next step will clearly be airports. I hope that won't be the case before Saturday.

Good luck for your crew and wife's intern. Right now, I don't think there are any right answers – just various levels of risk.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Funt Solo on 12 March, 2020, 07:43:56 PM
The story of Gussison, Colorado (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/01/gunnison-colorado-the-town-that-dodged-the-1918-spanish-flu-pandemic), and how it delayed the spanish flu epidemic of 1918.

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: JayzusB.Christ on 12 March, 2020, 08:17:02 PM
Quote from: paddykafka on 12 March, 2020, 03:31:21 PM
Glad to hear that your colleague's illness wasn't as bad as you feared, Jayzus. Checked to see why you didn't get my reply to your PM and realised that I failed to spot the "Do Not Reply to this email" notice. Doh! Will send you a PM soon.


Cheers Paddy! Also, yeah, it's a big relief that my colleague isn't infected. I'm not too scared of getting the virus myself, but really don't fancy the idea of being a walking hazard to vulnerable people.

I'm lucky to have a second job that doesnt generally involve contact with the public.  I'll be using this time to catch up on the painting projects that I'd assured clients  would be done within a few weeks, some time in late December.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Cyberleader2000 on 13 March, 2020, 10:00:53 AM
Quote from: Tjm86 on 12 March, 2020, 11:07:07 AM
Quote from: Cyberleader2000 on 11 March, 2020, 12:49:22 PM
so I live in Tewkesbury ... ~I need to go out today to a meeting and have to take a bus or a 50 minute walk since the bus I need to take passes through Cheltenham,

Buses running then are they?  Considering the weather I'd have thought a boat would have been better?  We moved out about 30 years ago (bugger, that long ago! Paper round from Smiths .... Making fishing tackle at Ryobi Masterline ... ) and flooding was bad enough then.  Now some lunatic has built a supermarket and massive housing estate on the fields that were flooded every year and people are surprised to find their homes regularly flooding?  That's got to do wonders for the health of local residents!

funny you say that tewkesbury was flooded for 2 weeks about 3 weeks ago.
in worring news the wife of a friends work college is getting tested today i hang out with this friend most day in the week since he moved in a few roads over from me and he works in a bakearey one that is well know to the staff and friends of staff at haveing apaling health standereds and work pratices.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 13 March, 2020, 10:28:13 AM
A bit of light relief amidst this madness - Twitter is on fire today. We didn't start it though.

(https://i.imgur.com/yFO72r4.jpg)
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 13 March, 2020, 10:44:20 AM
So, let's see if I have this right:

- No money for healthcare

- $1.5 trillion to keep the rich rich


Is that how it appears to you too?


https://markets.businessinsider.com/news/stocks/fed-repo-trillions-added-to-fight-coronavirus-economic-risk-recession-2020-3-1028991278
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: paddykafka on 13 March, 2020, 11:13:06 AM
Quote from: shaolin_monkey on 13 March, 2020, 10:28:13 AM
A bit of light relief amidst this madness - Twitter is on fire today. We didn't start it though.

At a time like this, the link below certainly brought a much needed smile to my face.

https://www.facebook.com/LivingDublinAltogether/photos/a.410783018934550/3179253705420787/?type=3&theater

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 13 March, 2020, 01:48:54 PM
Nice! :D
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 13 March, 2020, 01:53:32 PM
Of course, we can now all stalk you on Twitter, shaolin_monkey.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 13 March, 2020, 02:01:57 PM
Quote from: shaolin_monkey on 13 March, 2020, 10:44:20 AM
Is that how it appears to you too?

There's no other possible reading. It's an act - a policy - as calculatedly vile as many we condemn throughout history: more, it's exactly how great empires cement their decline. I suspect the last fading, tattered wisps of the American dream just died.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Tjm86 on 13 March, 2020, 02:49:18 PM
So in addition to Bolsanaro's aide, the man himself seems to have tested positive ...

... after spending an evening sat next to President Trump.

How to respond ....  :-\
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 13 March, 2020, 02:53:58 PM
One of my crew is Catalan, with a partner living near Madrid, and as our current job is wrapping up in a few weeks (and now there's no prospect of any more starting here), he's been nervously eyeing the flight- and virus situation trying to time his exit. He seemed upset this morning (more than the rest of us, fuck this atmosphere is bizarre), so I took him aside for a chat - his partner is desperate for him to come home, but from her testimony on the ground half of all Spanish cases are in Madrid, and he's terrified that flights or onward travel will be cancelled when he's on route and he'll be stranded. He believes Spain is about a week away from being Italy today.

Almost incredibly he's decided to abandon his plans to go home, and instead get the ferry to Britain, where he believes Boris' laissez faire approach will mean less restrictions on work and travel, and he'll ride it all out working on a HS2 site deep in the countryside somewhere.

If I was half-joking about the world sounding like an unoriginal SF novel, I'm not any longer - this is almost exactly the story setup for a PoV character in an apocalypse.  The poor bastard.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 13 March, 2020, 03:03:55 PM
Spain is not looking good. Areas with low infection have traced basically everything to Madrid and Italy. My folks are in the south-east, and they've even roped off all of the children's playgrounds. All municipal buildings are being closed.

Meanwhile, Iceland is containing things in some interesting ways, such as keeping shops open but mandating a maximum of 100 people even in large supermarkets and stores (which are relatively few in number in that country, but some do exist).
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: sheridan on 13 March, 2020, 03:13:01 PM
It's certainly lucky there aren't loads of British people over the age of 60 in Spain then, isn't it...
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: JayzusB.Christ on 13 March, 2020, 03:56:34 PM
Quote from: Tjm86 on 13 March, 2020, 02:49:18 PM
So in addition to Bolsanaro's aide, the man himself seems to have tested positive ...

... after spending an evening sat next to President Trump.

How to respond ....  :-\

Wow.  I'm not sure how to feel about that.  A wee bit of schadenfreude I have to admit, as Mr 'Just Another Democrat Hoax' wakes up to reality.  Not saying this is a moral standpoint; it's the petty little snide in me doing the thinking.

Another of my co-workers is getting tested today. The whole thing is overwhelming.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 13 March, 2020, 03:58:31 PM
Quote from: sheridan on 13 March, 2020, 03:13:01 PMIt's certainly lucky there aren't loads of British people over the age of 60 in Spain then, isn't it...
Two of which are my parents. As of tomorrow, they might not be – depending on how far the state of emergency being declared goes. (They have flights booked. The question is whether the flights will still happen.)
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: I, Cosh on 13 March, 2020, 04:10:44 PM
All schools in Switzerland closed until April now. Further restrictions on events: maximum 100 people at anything and 50 in a bar or restaurant.

Number of cases per capita has been very high here, mostly from proximity to northern Italy.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Tjm86 on 13 March, 2020, 04:22:51 PM
Quote from: JayzusB.Christ on 13 March, 2020, 03:56:34 PM
A wee bit of schadenfreude I have to admit, as Mr 'Just Another Democrat Hoax' wakes up to reality.


... and off the back of that revelation the White House goes into full panic mode ...
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: JayzusB.Christ on 13 March, 2020, 06:02:36 PM
Seems like the Bolsonaro infection thing was probably wrong.  Bit of a 9/11-style day today; conflicting news reports from all angles.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Professor Bear on 13 March, 2020, 07:24:04 PM
Quote from: Tjm86 on 13 March, 2020, 02:49:18 PM
So in addition to Bolsanaro's aide, the man himself seems to have tested positive ...

... after spending an evening sat next to President Trump.

How to respond ....  :-\

At some point in the next couple of months, many of us will be openly praying that he, Johnson and the lot of them catch it and die, so compassion is the best way to respond for now, while we're still capable.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Dudley on 13 March, 2020, 07:51:23 PM
This being the one place I sometimes post where my family isn't likely to see, please allow me to vent. My wife and I are in lockdown because the schools where we live are closed down, and we're lucky enough to have the option of teleworking. Meanwhile, my fucking mother, who has metastatic kidney cancer in both lungs, is refusing to take any precautions at all - this weekend she's been to a bunch of parties and all over the country, basically walking around in every damn crowd she can find. Worse, she's dragging my dad along with her (triple cancer survivor and not in the best of health himself). All the while making blithe little jokes about "if it comes, it comes," seemingly not giving a shit about her life or anyone's feelings but her own. We've tried gently and then less gently getting her to take the whole social distancing thing more seriously, but it just doesn't get through. And there's a limit to how much I can physically interfere given that I am stuck a good 2000 miles away, just going out of my mind.

Thanks for listening /reading /scrolling past, etc. Just really wanted to get that off my chest somewhere.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Funt Solo on 13 March, 2020, 08:26:08 PM
Similar issues with the olds in my neck of the woods. They seem fairly blase about ... end of life stuff.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: paddykafka on 13 March, 2020, 08:31:07 PM
Quote from: Professor Bear on 13 March, 2020, 07:24:04 PM
Quote from: Tjm86 on 13 March, 2020, 02:49:18 PM
So in addition to Bolsanaro's aide, the man himself seems to have tested positive ...

... after spending an evening sat next to President Trump.

How to respond ....  :-\

At some point in the next couple of months, many of us will be openly praying that he, Johnson and the lot of them catch it and die, so compassion is the best way to respond for now, while we're still capable.

A kind sentiment, Professor, even if only a temporary one. I think it is worth bearing in mind, though, that the likes of Johnson and his ilk, generally tend to view compassion as a weakness to be exploited, abused and manipulated. So with that in mind, I would have to say "Sod them!" Give your enemy an inch and they'll dig up the whole bloody garden and laugh at you while they're doing so. Offer no quarter, mercy or forgiveness, 'cause you can be damn sure that you won't get any from them.

I'll save my compassion for those that are truly deserving of it.

And speaking of which, my thoughts are with you, Dudley. I can't offer any possible solutions to your dilemma. For what little it is worth, I can only give you my best wishes and hope that things work out for yourself and your family, at this difficult and traumatic time.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Tjm86 on 13 March, 2020, 09:24:53 PM
Quote from: Dudley on 13 March, 2020, 07:51:23 PM
...  All the while making blithe little jokes about "if it comes, it comes," seemingly not giving a shit about her life or anyone's feelings but her own. We've tried gently and then less gently getting her to take the whole social distancing thing more seriously, but it just doesn't get through.

Maybe it isn't jokes so much as resignation?  I don't know.  News today has got me considering options and this is about to transition to Black Dog Thread (sorry not talking about Covid-19, rather personal news).  I get the nihilism, the resignation.  It's a massive challenge trying to think about how it affects other people when you are sat there thinking 'fuck it, there is only so much you can take.'

We've got a PM sat there saying 'do you know what, we're going to lose loved ones'.  That's another way of saying 'fuck it, a couple of thousand deaths don't count'.  So I get the idea of thinking about having a good innings but not wanting to be a further burden.  I even get the idea that it might be painful for loved ones in the short term but you know what, that pain fades.  Maybe there is a silver lining here in that it gives some of us a helpful get out.  Half a million deaths?  What is one more?
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Funt Solo on 13 March, 2020, 09:42:54 PM
Ah - my school has just closed down till April 24th - this is in the US. People keep asking what it all means (for graduation, for learning, for jobs, for life) and all I have is "It's unprecedented".
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: JayzusB.Christ on 13 March, 2020, 10:56:36 PM
Quote from: Dudley on 13 March, 2020, 07:51:23 PM
This being the one place I sometimes post where my family isn't likely to see, please allow me to vent. My wife and I are in lockdown because the schools where we live are closed down, and we're lucky enough to have the option of teleworking. Meanwhile, my fucking mother, who has metastatic kidney cancer in both lungs, is refusing to take any precautions at all - this weekend she's been to a bunch of parties and all over the country, basically walking around in every damn crowd she can find. Worse, she's dragging my dad along with her (triple cancer survivor and not in the best of health himself). All the while making blithe little jokes about "if it comes, it comes," seemingly not giving a shit about her life or anyone's feelings but her own. We've tried gently and then less gently getting her to take the whole social distancing thing more seriously, but it just doesn't get through. And there's a limit to how much I can physically interfere given that I am stuck a good 2000 miles away, just going out of my mind.

Thanks for listening /reading /scrolling past, etc. Just really wanted to get that off my chest somewhere.

Aw, man, that's brutal. Mothers have a way of driving you mental sometimes but that's just a whole lot worse. Hope your folks can get through it despite your Mam's belligerent attitude.

Meanwhile, my brother in England is still having to work with huge groups of schoolkids, because fuck Johnson and his sociopathic eugenics approach to human life.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: DaveGYNWA on 13 March, 2020, 11:31:58 PM
Sobering moment this evening when I got home from work - my kids (11 and 9) asked if there was anything they could do to help with what is going on.

A little chat later, and they have got text together for a leaflet for them to put through the letterboxes of the estate we are on, offering help to anyone who needs it. Popped it up on the Facebook group for the estate, got a long list of names & numbers to add to the list and volunteers to help distribute the leaflets.

Kids are great.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Gary James on 13 March, 2020, 11:43:50 PM
For those with friends or relatives who are not taking precautions, perhaps a better way of looking at their actions is that of a coping mechanism - by changing their routine, and accepting that there are significant risk factors involved with crowds and so on, their fear of catching Covid-19 (or, really, any bug doing the rounds) might increase. By maintaining a pattern of behavior which conforms to prior expectations they are simply dealing with events as best they can.

Many older people, having lived through other events of significant disruption, can have a "keep buggering on" attitude - in other circumstances this would be laudable. Don't view their stubborn refusal to follow guidelines as some sort of a death wish, as I'm certain that this isn't going to be the case for most people.

For years I have been mocked for compulively washing my hands, but the reason for OCD now becomes clear - this is how the I'm going to get through the next few months (hopefully) unscathed. I can't afford to catch anything, least of all Captain Trips.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 14 March, 2020, 12:04:41 AM
Christ, Dudley that's a shite situation. As detailed upthread, I had to genuinely terrorise my parents to get them to behave (there were spreadsheets) - luckily I did it early enough that as events have unfolded I've now achieved a certain prophetic noteriety, and they seem to be toeing the line. Although my Dad may never forgive me for physically barring him from going to the pub with a terminally-ill mate. I doubt it will save them, but at least we will know we tried.

My aunt, OTOH, went down to the PO for her pension today despite my filling out the forms for her to get it put in her bank 3 months ago, then to the hairdressers, and marvelled at how quiet it was, then into Tesco for some fresh buns. There she met a very kind neighbour who has been delivering food to her this past fortnight, who was horrified to find this frail 92 year old woman in the bakery section. Apparently said neighbour was 'very rude, I don't know what got into her'.

And so it goes.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 14 March, 2020, 01:38:52 AM
Sorry for the double post, but if you haven't read  this article  (https://medium.com/@tomaspueyo/coronavirus-act-today-or-people-will-die-f4d3d9cd99ca)you must, and then share it.

This is the one that, like the Terminator, lays it all down: hidden cases, judgement day, the history of things to come. Be like Miles Dyson: take it pretty well, but listen.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Eamonn Clarke on 14 March, 2020, 10:07:51 AM
A doctor writes:
It seems inevitable now that most of us are going to be exposed to this virus over the coming year, tens (or hundreds) of thousands of us are going to contract the Covid-19 illness, and thousands are going to die.

We are going to run out of something but it's won't be toilet rolls. It's going to be hospital beds in general, and intensive care beds in particular. People who should be in an ITU bed are going to be cared for on standard wards, people who should be on the ward are going to be nursed in corridors, and people who should be in hospital are going to be kept at home.

It seems the only chance the elderly or people with chronic health conditions have is to delay their exposure to the virus until later in the year when there may be a bed for them, or to try and avoid it altogether.

So we should all:
Avoid crowded places or events.
Do not travel by plane if you can avoid it.
If you can arrange to work from home then do so.
Unless you are unwell please stay away from the NHS.
If you are due a routine medical review or have some non urgent problem you want to see your GP about please don't come to the surgery. Ring us and hopefully we can do it by phone or video.
If you get a cough, sore throat or fever then go straight home. Current advice is 7 days. I would say 14.
If this happens and you have a pre-existing health condition (asthma, diabetes, heart disease, COPD, cancer, or any form of immunodeficiency) then get medical advice from 111 or your surgery by phone.
If you get breathing difficulties then get immediate medical advice by phone.
Do not visit elderly relatives or friends unless it is to drop off supplies.
Talk to them regularly by phone or video instead.
Tell them to do the same.
I know it is proving difficult for many people to convince older relatives but try to impress on them the seriousness of this. Tell them it's doctor's orders.

Additional thoughts.
We're comic fans so spare a thought for the industry that relies on us to keep going.
If you have an order at your local comic shop then try and pay them by phone or online even if there's going to be a delay in picking them up. Maybe they will be offering a postal service.
If you are out and about then pick up the prog and other comic magazines
Conventions are going to be cancelled so perhaps contact your artist of choice to pay them for a sketch or commission.
Support the small press comics people if you can.
And if you're still reading this far then please think about some of the worst off people in society who are going to be hit hard.
Donate some of the money you won't be spending on social events to homelessness charities, food banks, or organisations that support refugees (Just a thought).

Above all please be kind.
And now wash your hands.
Thank you for your attention.
Eamonn Clarke
A NHS GP
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: JayzusB.Christ on 14 March, 2020, 10:19:14 AM
Thank you, Eamonn. That's great. 
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: JayzusB.Christ on 14 March, 2020, 10:42:59 AM
Excuse the double post, but something has just occurred to me, which will be blindingly obvious already to most of you: if Johnson believes in 'herd immunity', why hasn't he already made efforts to 'immunise' himself and his own family (at least, the ones he can find)?  It's can't be that hard to find a sick person and get yourself infected.

Or maybe the 'herd' doesn't include Tory public school types.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 14 March, 2020, 12:44:06 PM
Brilliant Eamonn, thanks for this. You are as always the very best of us.

The appeal to accelerating herd immunity is a counsel of despair. That was obvious as soon as Katie Hopkins started tweeting about how chickenpox parties never did her any harm. I'm having none of it.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Steve Green on 14 March, 2020, 12:59:36 PM
Quote from: Eamonn Clarke on 14 March, 2020, 10:07:51 AM
Avoid crowded places or events.

Scottish contingent meet-ups were well ahead of the curve there.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 14 March, 2020, 01:07:41 PM
Quote from: Steve Green on 14 March, 2020, 12:59:36 PM
Quote from: Eamonn Clarke on 14 March, 2020, 10:07:51 AM
Avoid crowded places or events.

Scottish contingent meet-ups were well ahead of the curve there.

Pioneers of social distancing.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 14 March, 2020, 01:09:56 PM
For both truth and a dark chuckle at the situation, here's Honest Government Ads:

https://youtu.be/Hks6Nq7g6P4
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: JayzusB.Christ on 14 March, 2020, 02:25:03 PM
I would like to hereby start a campaign to get Johnson and his herd immunity advisers infected, then send them to an isolated house till they're good and immune.

I'll let Boris decide himself whether he wants to take his elderly mother along to get naturally immunised too.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Dandontdare on 14 March, 2020, 04:51:14 PM
I'm in Lanzarote- due to fly home tomorrow but first 2 confirmed cases yesterday's at our resort. Jet2 flights have been turning back to UK mid flight but Ryanair don't seem to give a $%*#

I would happily be trapped here or have some self isolation back home, even if if unpaid. I just don't want to go to work on Monday  :(
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 14 March, 2020, 05:30:38 PM
Folks just landed; back from Spain. Originally scheduled to come back in two weeks, but weren't keen on being stuck. They've – fortunately – been in one of the least-affected areas, but it's now in full lockdown. (The Spanish aren't fucking around – looking at closing roads/banning intercity travel/etc.)

I'm not thrilled at them having gone through two airports and flown, but it seemed the lesser of two evils. Here's hoping the right decision was made...
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 14 March, 2020, 05:57:18 PM
Nerve-wracking to say the least IP but at least they are close by now. Fingers crossed for ye.

As for you DDD, there are surely worse fates than being marooned in the Canaries!
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Dandontdare on 14 March, 2020, 07:41:34 PM
Fingers crossed!
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Leigh S on 14 March, 2020, 07:52:40 PM
Wife is back from the shops which are half empty now - God knows what panic would set in if they shut the schools - A google search of "Why are the English so" comes up with "angry" and "entitled"  - sounds about right.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Funt Solo on 14 March, 2020, 09:12:25 PM
Quote from: TordelBack on 14 March, 2020, 01:38:52 AM
Sorry for the double post, but if you haven't read  this article  (https://medium.com/@tomaspueyo/coronavirus-act-today-or-people-will-die-f4d3d9cd99ca)you must, and then share it.

This is the one that, like the Terminator, lays it all down: hidden cases, judgement day, the history of things to come. Be like Miles Dyson: take it pretty well, but listen.

Thanks for sharing that article. It moved me to start a couple of campaigns of social distancing with the older chunk of my family. And, my (US) school is canceling classes from Tuesday, so I'm emailing all my students and suggesting strongly that they needn't attend on Monday either. Like the article says: one day can make a big difference.

Fuck: I've cried three times in the last 24 hours. I usually only cry at The Waltons.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: JayzusB.Christ on 14 March, 2020, 10:06:59 PM
Really hope your folks are OK,  IP.

I'm in my local, really loving the normalcy of it all. They may all be closing soon so I'll enjoy it while I can.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 15 March, 2020, 08:27:47 AM
Quote from: Funt Solo on 14 March, 2020, 09:12:25 PM
Fuck: I've cried three times in the last 24 hours. I usually only cry at The Waltons.

I'm finding it unbearable, to be honest. I've been digging into the actual progression and likely long-term conseqiences of the illness itself and it's way, way worse than I understood. This is one of those moments of complete transformation for our world.

Pubs jammed to the rafters, parents letting their kids roam around in packs, sick people forced to come into work... we aren't capable of being responsible or flexible, the patterns of our lives seem like railway tracks to us, when we need to strike off crosscountry.

I'm minutes away from putting my head in the sand.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: judgeurko on 15 March, 2020, 08:59:51 AM
Not sure what to do. I have relatives in their 60s about 200 miles away was planning to visit?
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Dandontdare on 15 March, 2020, 09:05:23 AM
Ah bollox- just heard that Lanzarote will be locked down from midnight- 12 hours after our flight home.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: JayzusB.Christ on 15 March, 2020, 04:41:31 PM
Just got off the phone to my dad. I was pleasantly surprised to hear that he and my mam are taking this seriously: staying at home, washing hands, limiting social contact etc.
He was due to come up and see me tomorrow, but I put him off. A colleague of mine is due to get tested ASAP so I'm waiting to see if I have symptoms or not before coming into contact with him.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Funt Solo on 15 March, 2020, 06:27:53 PM
Fashion proving how tasteless it is once again. (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-51899526)
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IAMTHESYSTEM on 16 March, 2020, 09:47:43 AM
Is the bulk-buying a form of survival strategy? By limiting your exposure to a possibly toxic environment, you eliminate some of the risks involved, and shopping is where humans gather together to buy items. By scaling down your purchasing activity, or buying more at one visit, you help reduce any threat of infection to yourself, ensuring you continue to work and support your offspring or dependents. Our local big Tesco Superstore was heaving this morning; long queues, lots of piled up trolleys, and some bare rather than empty food aisles. It looks like this is going to be the way of things for the next couple of months, at least, so keep washing those hands, folks.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 16 March, 2020, 10:59:17 AM
Everything's gone fucking nuts. My recommendation to my parents was to shop online. Good luck with that. Even click and collect is no longer viable for three of the major supermarket chains – and I imagine we'll see a full house within 48h. Amazon, notably, now also out of key staples (and arseholes on marketplace are now aiming to fill that particular void).
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Trooper McFad on 16 March, 2020, 11:12:23 AM
These Doomsday preppers in the US (and other areas) will be grabbing their bug out bags and running to the hills singing " I told you so, I told you so" while the rest of us will just have to sit tight and hope for the best🤞🏻
Better start watching Bear Grylls on how to catch & skin rabbits & squirrels 😳
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Aaron A Aardvark on 16 March, 2020, 11:16:43 AM
So I can wipe my arse on a squirrel when the toilet paper runs out?
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Trooper McFad on 16 March, 2020, 12:03:57 PM
Quote from: Aaron A Aardvark on 16 March, 2020, 11:16:43 AM
So I can wipe my arse on a squirrel when the toilet paper runs out?

Softer than Andrex but might tickle a bit 😂😂😂
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: JamesC on 16 March, 2020, 12:27:27 PM
Quote from: Trooper McFad on 16 March, 2020, 12:03:57 PM
Quote from: Aaron A Aardvark on 16 March, 2020, 11:16:43 AM
So I can wipe my arse on a squirrel when the toilet paper runs out?

Softer than Andrex but might tickle a bit 😂😂😂

and it'll probably go for your nuts.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: paddykafka on 16 March, 2020, 01:11:26 PM
One of the Four Horsemen is now doing deliveries of said essential item.  ;)

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1564916640333689&set=a.1564920673666619&type=3
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: gurnard on 16 March, 2020, 04:22:12 PM
I live in Belgium, British immigrant. My folks are in the UK and most of my friends.  I am sadly not suprised how little the UK gov seems to be doing. Here the schools closed today. All shops apart from food and pharmacy are closed at the weekends. All concerts have been postponed, bars and restaurants are closed but you can go get a takeaway.
Anyone who can work from home are advised to the office is open but the boss sent an email saying work from home. Shops are open in the week but I think they are changing that now to be just essentials.  If you have symptoms you call the doctor and they come to your home. There are daily updates from the state. There are also concessions for mortgage payments and the tax returns can go in a month or so later this year.

All of this makes me feel happy that the gov is taking actions to limit the spread and reduce the death toll. I wish the UK would do something similar. It is not a complete lock down but sensible precautions.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Tjm86 on 16 March, 2020, 05:31:47 PM
Quote from: paddykafka on 16 March, 2020, 01:11:26 PM
One of the Four Horsemen is now doing deliveries of said essential item.  ;)

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1564916640333689&set=a.1564920673666619&type=3

Thank you.  That is outstanding!!!!!!  :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: auxlen on 16 March, 2020, 05:34:56 PM
My Job has stopped me from going out to customers. A colleague's son has it and it is awful (and he is only 22 and can't breathe). my parents are in their 70s and my mum keeps going to the shops for bits and bobs!!!!! she will never change.

and I keep getting people saying it's just a cold (like the Italians did).
I work in the construction supply industry and possibly saw it all a bit early from rushes and backorders on hand sanitizer and masks and tp. scary stuff.

we will never know if we overreacted or acted too soon.
but we will know for sure if we acted too little too late.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: auxlen on 16 March, 2020, 05:36:19 PM
Also, a shout goes out to all the people who cannot work from home. My mum was a cleaner and she couldn't clean from home so... :'(
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 16 March, 2020, 06:10:12 PM
If anyone wants to scare the living shite out of their elderly  parents in terms they may understand, try this: a comparison of the Death Notices in the Bergamo Echo newspaper from one month ago, and this week. Good luck not losing your composure by the end.

https://t.co/gTREDkDGPL
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 16 March, 2020, 08:04:07 PM
My dad's going to Lidl tomorrow, because of course he is. On the plus side, he's aiming to get enough that my parents won't have to leave their house again for a couple of months, potentially. I would have recommended getting a delivery, but good luck with that. Even getting on to the Ocado website now takes over 15 minutes, and there won't be any slots until you do. Sainsbury's and Tesco locally also have no slots. Morrisons doesn't have any for eight days (and god knows what you'll actually get). Asda still had some yesterday, but I imagine they're probably gone by now as well. Even Amazon is struggling with stock.

Still, everyone don't leave your homes!
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 16 March, 2020, 08:05:30 PM
As I long suspected, it's maths teachers that will kill us all. Watching social media reactions to latest Irish Govt briefing, where an established growth rate of 30% per day will mean 15,000 (identified) infections in a matter of weeks, and half the takes are people refusing to believe that 'only 30%' could end up with such a high figure . Add that to 'shure it only kills 1%' and it's obvious we have a situation where a huge part of the electorate can't grasp basic maths. Which may be where very many of our problems start.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 16 March, 2020, 09:23:45 PM
I do not see how this can possibly end well:

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/coronavirus-us-panic-buying-guns-ammo-nra-a9403886.htmlThis
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 16 March, 2020, 11:21:32 PM
Mark Drakeford, the Welsh AM, made a very important point tonight.

The rates of child poverty are so incredibly high in Wales, which means closing the schools would be a disaster - without their breakfast club and free school meals the kids would literally starve.

This is one of the main reasons they're holding off closing schools in Wales - to give Welsh government time to get something in place to counter this awful situation.

I imagine this is the same for other impoverished areas in the U.K.

Another slow handclap for Tory austerity.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Professor Bear on 17 March, 2020, 12:03:46 AM
It's almost as if capitalism is the problem, and the pandemic is merely a symptom.  That stripping utilities to the bone until they're only just holding on is a bad idea and that infinite profit is a stupid concept on a sphere with a finite number of resources even before you get to the problem of some fuckers hoarding that profit in overseas accounts so it can't stimulate the economy.

My sister and her two oldest girls have made a point of visiting my mum regularly since people started social distancing and panic buying, so mum doesn't feel lonely and isolated what with her chest infection and advancing years and being short of breath all the time to the point she can barely speak.  Did I mention all three girls work in retail?  And haven't stopped working yet?  And one of them works at a 24 hour petrol station that is visited by one car in five passing through the town?  Honestly, I've just spent all my money on toilet paper and baked beans - where do they expect me to rustle up the cash for a decent pair of black shoes?
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Tjm86 on 17 March, 2020, 06:15:22 AM
Quote from: shaolin_monkey on 16 March, 2020, 11:21:32 PM
The rates of child poverty are so incredibly high in Wales, which means closing the schools would be a disaster
This is one of the main reasons they're holding off closing schools in Wales - to give Welsh government time to get something in place to counter this awful situation.

This is something that we are acutely aware of up here in the Valleys where this is not so much an abstract political problem but a daily reality.  Families are also heavily reliant on older relatives, many in risk-groups, for childcare so that is another issue.

I know that we have been critical of the government, and Johnson in particular, in the past (okay, with good reason ...) but even so I really don't envy him the choices he is facing right now.  Brexit is the least of his problems right now!
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 17 March, 2020, 08:36:35 AM
Entitled incompetent lies and fucks over his country (and mine) to gain power over everyone's lives, now he finds out what that responsibility can mean you feel sorry for him? You're a better man than I, Tjm86!  Personally I hope he vomits in terror everytime he looks in the mirror.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: sheridan on 17 March, 2020, 08:59:50 AM
Quote from: TordelBack on 17 March, 2020, 08:36:35 AM
Entitled incompetent lies and fucks over his country (and mine) to gain power over everyone's lives, now he finds out what that responsibility can mean you feel sorry for him? You're a better man than I, Tjm86!  Personally I hope he vomits in terror everytime he looks in the mirror.

Yeah - for somebody who wanted to be in power so much, why hadn't he made any decisions in his time in the job?
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Tjm86 on 17 March, 2020, 09:32:59 AM
Not entirely sure I would go so far as to say that I fell sorry for him.  He is now finding out what the bed he has made feels like to lie in.  A career of self-centred narcissism, duplicity and deceit really is catching up on him and circumstances are demonstrating how grotesquely inadequate he is for the job.  As someone once said, "karma's a bitch."
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 17 March, 2020, 09:45:33 AM
Fuck him. I have no sympathy whatsoever for someone who lied their way into a position of power, and who is now making decisions still in some cases based on ideology rather than humanity. There is no fucking excuse right now. The government should at the very least be mandating businesses close, so insurance can kick in, and introducing some kind of UBI to get gig workers and those who cannot WFH as much as possible out of harm's way.

If nothing else, I do hope whatever we are on the other side of this recognises that society needs to change. I don't think capitalism is the problem — it's our implementation. By all means have competition and companies scrapping for marketshare. But ensure the underlying foundation is solid. Don't run the health service at 90% capacity. Enact a full UBI scheme, so people have enough money to survive when things go wrong. This doesn't require nationalising all the things and going full socialism. It means a robust mixed economy, which ends up borrowing fairly equally from Thatcher-style competition and open markets and Green Party-oriented societal changes. If we stick with only the former, it's going to be the death of many of us.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 17 March, 2020, 11:02:03 AM
Just heard: one of mini-IP's best chums has a family now in isolation. One of their kids has been sick for a week. Chances that her entire class now has this are certainly now a lot higher than zero. Still, great that the schools aren't shutting in the UK. What a fantastic plan this is to stop the spread!
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 17 March, 2020, 11:14:44 AM
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 17 March, 2020, 11:02:03 AM
Just heard: one of mini-IP's best chums has a family now in isolation. One of their kids has been sick for a week. Chances that her entire class now has this are certainly now a lot higher than zero. Still, great that the schools aren't shutting in the UK. What a fantastic plan this is to stop the spread!

As Cathy Newman rather waspishly asked a health minister on C4 News: "What's the point in stopping going to the pub if our kids are going to bring this disease home from school?"

Needless to say, the reply was a wall of content-free waffle about being "led by the science".
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IAMTHESYSTEM on 17 March, 2020, 11:45:50 AM
The schools are effectively time-bombs waiting to go off. One Telegraph writer has accusations laid against him of all but applauding the Coronavirus, seeing it as an opportunity to rid the nation of costly welfare recipients. You could argue school-aged children are now Bio-Weapons, used to knock-off granny, but that's just my paranoia. Still, a lot of Hospitality jobs are on the line here, with Pubs, Clubs and Restaurants in the firing line. I doubt the Government will move to save these workers, knowing their Business Donors friends would like nothing more than to pick up bankrupted businesses for a song. The scary thing is, we're just at the start of this epidemic.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 17 March, 2020, 12:10:47 PM
Close the schools - widespread malnutrition and starvation in nearly one in three kids.

http://theconversation.com/food-poverty-agony-of-hunger-the-norm-for-many-children-in-the-uk-116216


Don't close the schools - spread the virus quickly around families.


The Tory policy of austerity has created a real "Sophie's Choice" here, eh? 

It's hard to see a way out, other than close the schools and get emergency food parcels to 4 millions kids weekly over the next few months.  And ideally forever after.

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 17 March, 2020, 12:26:39 PM
Quoteused to knock-off granny,
Granny probably votes Tory. Even the government isn't that stupid.

As for people who don't have enough money, that's why I've also been saying above we need UBI basically immediately.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Funt Solo on 17 March, 2020, 02:02:04 PM
Our schools (WA, US) are closed but we will be supplying packed meals as pick-up items, effectively at a doorway location. Schools are currently figuring out logistics for students who live far away, like setting up satellite distribution centers and using the school buses as delivery trucks.

Closing the schools has been an emergency no-brainer. Figuring out how to continue supporting the in-need kids is being dealt with. New rules for this crazy emergency.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Lorenzo on 17 March, 2020, 02:27:34 PM
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 17 March, 2020, 09:45:33 AM
... There is no fucking excuse right now. The government should at the very least be mandating businesses close, so insurance can kick in, and introducing some kind of UBI to get gig workers and those who cannot WFH as much as possible out of harm's way....

I don't normally post that much - so, hello - but I'm intrigued by your anger. I live in Holland and my Prime Minister gave a very statesmanlike and grave address to the nation yesterday. He basically said closing everything down (like France and Spain) would be terribly destructive and, as difficult as it is to say it, the only real solution is for everyone (or at least 60%) to get the virus. Just not all at once.

If a country goes into lock down you will temporarily stop the spread, but when everyone crawls back out into the daylight after a month, the virus will reappear. A vaccine ain't gonna happen for 12 months at least. If you lock down the country for 12 months there isn't going to be a society left, so where does the UBI come from? It's all very well slagging off Bojo - he's a very easy target! - but hibernating isn't going to save us. France, Spain and Italy are going to be stuffed.

The scientific advice here seems to be let everyone that is young and fit get the virus, spread out the infection rate over the next couple of months, and protect the elderly and sick from infection in the mean time. Protecting everyone isn't going to solve the problem. It seems to be an odd virus - most people barely notice they are ill, whilst the very old are very vulnerable, but seasonal flu is a bit like that as well...
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Funt Solo on 17 March, 2020, 02:36:20 PM
Oh ffs. Seasonal flu doesn't overwhelm the healthcare system, and COVID is something like ten times as deadly. It's not hibernating, it's flattening the curve. Do the bare minimum of research, please.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Lorenzo on 17 March, 2020, 02:41:50 PM
Way to pick out one word from my reply. I have done my research try this:
https://www.imperial.ac.uk/media/imperial-college/medicine/sph/ide/gida-fellowships/Imperial-College-COVID19-NPI-modelling-16-03-2020.pdf
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Professor Bear on 17 March, 2020, 02:54:57 PM
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 17 March, 2020, 12:26:39 PM
Quoteused to knock-off granny,
Granny probably votes Tory. Even the government isn't that stupid.

It's not just granny who's going to come a cropper - society's most vulnerable and sick aren't likely to be Tory voters and they're facing a holocaust.  A few hundred thousand Tory votes at most will be lost, but even if by some evil miracle or statistical quirk that were the single demographic that was struck down by the virus, the Tories would still have enough voters to spare thanks to the sterling job done by British centrists over the last few years.

On balance, the Tories will make out like bandits from this pandemic: fire sales of national assets, super-austerity measures, houses freed up to use as bribes to the electorate, and lots of undeserving chaff culled from the herd.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 17 March, 2020, 04:51:15 PM
Hah hah, one of my main Iads from work just texted me to say he's in quarantine - a friend he hung out with the weekend before last was on holiday with a confirmed victim, and is now sick as a dog with fever/cough and queued up for a test. Luckily he still has no symptoms himself, and I haven't seen him since Friday - and rumour has it it's the last few asymptomatic days that the most shedding takes place. Fingers are crossed for him, his own underlying health isn't the best, and he's a grand bloke.

But fuuuuuuck do I not want to be going into work tomorrow.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Funt Solo on 17 March, 2020, 05:41:09 PM
Quote from: Lorenzo on 17 March, 2020, 02:41:50 PM
Way to pick out one word from my reply. I have done my research try this:
https://www.imperial.ac.uk/media/imperial-college/medicine/sph/ide/gida-fellowships/Imperial-College-COVID19-NPI-modelling-16-03-2020.pdf

The conclusion of that study was that we need to practice suppression (which you labelled "hibernation", and were arguing against.) Not sure why you're arguing against your own research but there's nowt as queer as folk.

Sorry if my reaction to your comparing Covid-19 to flu didn't sit well with you: but I'm flabbergasted as to how anyone can make that sort of "bah - tis just a flu" comparison with a straight face (and without a clearly worn, and worn, tin foil hat). Like the WHO and the rest of the world are all shitting themselves for no reason. Italy's just exaggerating etc. I know you didn't say all that exactly, but it seemed like an analogy, and if it wasn't intended as such then what did you mean by the comparison?
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: sheridan on 17 March, 2020, 06:00:57 PM
Quote from: TordelBack on 17 March, 2020, 04:51:15 PM
Hah hah, one of my main Iads from work just texted me to say he's in quarantine - a friend he hung out with the weekend before last was on holiday with a confirmed victim, and is now sick as a dog with fever/cough and queued up for a test. Luckily he still has no symptoms himself, and I haven't seen him since Friday - and rumour has it it's the last few asymptomatic days that the most shedding takes place.


Rumour?  You should stop listening to rumours.


Incubation period    (https://www.thelancet.com/journals/langlo/article/PIIS2214-109X(20)30074-7/fulltext)5·8 days (2·6)


Symptoms of COVID-19 appear within two to 14 days after exposure and include fever, cough, runny nose and difficulty breathing. (https://newsroom.clevelandclinic.org/2020/03/15/frequently-asked-questions-about-coronavirus-disease-2019-covid-19/)
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Tjm86 on 17 March, 2020, 06:08:54 PM
Quote from: shaolin_monkey on 17 March, 2020, 12:10:47 PM
The Tory policy of austerity has created a real "Sophie's Choice" here, eh? 

"Hobson's Choice" ...
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 17 March, 2020, 06:33:49 PM
Quote from: sheridan on 17 March, 2020, 06:00:57 PM
Rumour?  You should stop listening to rumours.

Well I say 'rumour' precisely because I don't want to be asserting as facts things I don't fully understand, but that was the best understanding from the WHO (https://www.who.int/docs/default-source/coronaviruse/situation-reports/20200306-sitrep-46-covid-19.pdf?sfvrsn=96b04adf_2) when last I looked, which admittedly was last week - it's not like I was hearing it from a lad down the pub and reporting it on here as fact.

Feck all I can do about it anyway, just trying to give myself  a wee shred of hope! 
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Lorenzo on 17 March, 2020, 10:07:50 PM
Quote from: Funt Solo on 17 March, 2020, 05:41:09 PM
Quote from: Lorenzo on 17 March, 2020, 02:41:50 PM
Way to pick out one word from my reply. I have done my research try this:
https://www.imperial.ac.uk/media/imperial-college/medicine/sph/ide/gida-fellowships/Imperial-College-COVID19-NPI-modelling-16-03-2020.pdf

The conclusion of that study was that we need to practice suppression (which you labelled "hibernation", and were arguing against.) Not sure why you're arguing against your own research but there's nowt as queer as folk.

Sorry if my reaction to your comparing Covid-19 to flu didn't sit well with you: but I'm flabbergasted as to how anyone can make that sort of "bah - tis just a flu" comparison with a straight face (and without a clearly worn, and worn, tin foil hat). Like the WHO and the rest of the world are all shitting themselves for no reason. Italy's just exaggerating etc. I know you didn't say all that exactly, but it seemed like an analogy, and if it wasn't intended as such then what did you mean by the comparison?

I have no idea why you are being quite so patronizing and passive-aggressive towards me. I think you need to re-read my post and understand I'm asking a question.

I didn't say 'bah - tis just a flu' read my sentence again, don't parse it and don't reinterpret it.

Suppression is elastically defined as 'social distancing of the population + home isolation of cases + (possibly) school and university closures'. I don't consider that 'hibernation' which the French and Italians are practising. This involves banning people from leaving home at all and closing all businesses. The Dutch are attempting 'social distancing' whilst allowing some business to continue where home working is not an option. This could mitigate total economic collapse with only a minimal increase in risk.

That was the reason I asked my question to IndigoPrime, but you can answer if you want.
If you are advocating a total lock-down, like the French, where businesses are closed and freedom of movement is removed totally. How long will the economy last before total collapse and how does the state then pay for UBI? What happens to society if everyone's job goes down the sh*tter? Total lock-down will only work if it can be maintained until a vaccine has been produced. Otherwise as soon as the lock-down ends the virus will still be out there waiting.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: JOE SOAP on 17 March, 2020, 10:56:36 PM
Quote from: Lorenzo on 17 March, 2020, 02:27:34 PM
The scientific advice here seems to be let everyone that is young and fit get the virus, spread out the infection rate over the next couple of months, and protect the elderly and sick from infection in the mean time. Protecting everyone isn't going to solve the problem. It seems to be an odd virus - most people barely notice they are ill, whilst the very old are very vulnerable, but seasonal flu is a bit like that as well...

There is no scientific advice that says that. 'Herd Immunity' has not been proven with COVID-19 because it hasn't been around long enough and even if it does develop it might not stick. Herd Immunity is usually developed in tandem with a vaccine, which we don't have.

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 17 March, 2020, 11:00:12 PM
The economy of the whole world is going down the shitter on this one, no matter what any one country does. All we can do is follow the best advice of epidemiological and crisis experts and save as many lives as we can. Ultimately that's what the economy is for, sustaining life, not creating wealth to be hoarded. It will have to change.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Definitely Not Mister Pops on 17 March, 2020, 11:54:37 PM
That's very interesting.

I don't have a clue how this will all work out, nor would I even try to pretend to.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 17 March, 2020, 11:58:02 PM
Quote from: Mister Pops on 17 March, 2020, 11:54:37 PM
I don't have a clue how this will all work out, nor would I even try to pretend to.

Wise words, Mr P.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Funt Solo on 18 March, 2020, 12:16:03 AM
Lorenzo: I think there's a confusion over terms, honestly.

You're differentiating the French/Spanish/Italian response from suppression and I'm not. You have called it "hibernation", whereas I'd just describe it as sensible suppression. So, we disagree there.

---

As for your not liking my way of expressing myself toward you: you compared Covid-19 to flu in an ambiguous way that seemed (to me) to downplay the dangers of the former, and that triggered me. I got salty. I still think that's pretty fair. Happy to eat my hat (metaphorically: things haven't gotten that desperate yet) if you tell me that's not what you were doing.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 18 March, 2020, 08:27:46 AM
Quote from: Tjm86 on 17 March, 2020, 06:08:54 PM
Quote from: shaolin_monkey on 17 March, 2020, 12:10:47 PM
The Tory policy of austerity has created a real "Sophie's Choice" here, eh? 

"Hobson's Choice" ...

Sophie's, surely?

"Sophie's choice refers to an extremely difficult decision a person has to make. It describes a situation where no outcome is preferable over the other. This can be either because both outcomes are equally desirable or both are equally undesirable."

Keep schools open - infect everyone
or
Close schools - starve 1 in 3 kids

Both are equally undesirable.



Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 18 March, 2020, 11:59:27 AM
It's a digression, but how the fuck does one of the richest countries in the world get to the point where so many kids depend on school meals for survival? Whenis shit is over, it seems like there are some very serious questions to be addressed about how we do things.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: gurnard on 18 March, 2020, 12:04:38 PM
Quote from: shaolin_monkey on 17 March, 2020, 12:10:47 PM
Close schools - starve 1 in 3 kids

This should not be on the list in a civilized nation.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Rately on 18 March, 2020, 01:54:48 PM
Quote from: TordelBack on 18 March, 2020, 11:59:27 AM
It's a digression, but how the fuck does one of the richest countries in the world get to the point where so many kids depend on school meals for survival? Whenis shit is over, it seems like there are some very serious questions to be addressed about how we do things.

It really is disgusting.

Blue in the face at this point asking how the tories got in, and somehow remain in power. As much as the right wing media are at fault, you have to question the morals and empathy of a hell of a lot of voters.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 18 March, 2020, 02:01:40 PM
Quote from: Rately on 18 March, 2020, 01:54:48 PM
Blue in the face at this point asking how the tories got in, and somehow remain in power. As much as the right wing media are at fault, you have to question the morals and empathy of a hell of a lot of voters.

I'd never truly appreciated the power of the media until the last couple of years, having had multiple conversations with people I would otherwise have thought politically fairly sensible, or at least moderately savvy, absolutely convinced that Corbyn was more or less literally Satan. The sheer volume of demonstrable lies that have passed into 'common knowledge' as things 'everyone knows' is simply overwhelming.

You have to strip every political conversation back to first principles and work from the ground up, refuting every lie one by one and, even then, most of the time the other person doesn't believe you. You can see a shutter come down behind their eyse and suddenly you're a "cultist". It's exhausting, which was probably the point.

(Apologies for the derail.)
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 18 March, 2020, 02:27:41 PM
Mrs IP still at work, because her company is still figuring out how to get fucking Slack working (their PCs still mostly run Internet Explorer, and they are admin-locked, with only one part-time tech support guy who works nights barely available to make changes), let alone remote access to their systems. But, hey, all's good, because they've put in place a stringent set of requirements, including:

- Removing all filing from desks (in what's principally a paper-based org)
- Forcing everyone to eat lunch IN THEIR CARS (and closing the kitchen facilities)
- Having all meetings outside, in the cold
- Denying anyone the means to move between the two buildings
- Cleaning every three hours
- Regular temperature checks

Now, I'd broadly on board with about one and a half of those. My wife notes: "Nobody is getting any work done."

ARGH. Meanwhile, at mini-IP's school, they are now down SIX staff and an increasing number of students, whose families are self-isolating. But they pretty much have to stay open, for various reasons. YAY, UK! We're doing so well!
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Richard on 18 March, 2020, 02:51:41 PM
The best arguments against Brexit were always that Brussels is less incompetent and less heartless than Westminster. </Brexit>
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: sheridan on 18 March, 2020, 02:59:54 PM
Quote from: Richard on 18 March, 2020, 02:51:41 PM
The best arguments against Brexit were always that Brussels is less incompetent and less heartless than Westminster. </Brexit>

One friend of mine (before that date in 2017) claimed that the worst thing about the EU was how corrupt it was.  This was at the height of (one of) the expenses scandal(s).
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 18 March, 2020, 03:08:46 PM
Quote from: TordelBack on 18 March, 2020, 11:59:27 AM
Whenis shit is over, it seems like there are some very serious questions to be addressed about how we do things.

Those questions have been asked over and over by UK charities for about a decade now.  It has been widely discussed in such papers as The Guardian and The Independent for many years also.

Does anyone remember the visit from UN Special Rapporteur Phil Alston, and his report on UK poverty?  He put his incredibly damning report in front of Conservatives and they basically denied the existence of starving children.

Here's his report, if anyone is interested:

https://www.ohchr.org/EN/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNews.aspx?NewsID=23881&LangID=E


Here's how government reacted:

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/may/24/un-poverty-expert-hits-back-over-uk-ministers-denial-of-facts-philip-alston


The point being, I guess, is that we've been screaming this until we are blue in the face for years and nothing has changed. What is the solution though, outside of violent revolution?


Jim - totally hear you.  The media, including FB and Twitter, have been on a massive pogrom of propaganda, lies, half-truths, misinfo, confusion and goodness knows what else with the sole aim of keeping Corbyn out of power.  It is a well established tactic which we have seen from tobacco companies, and also (you've guessed it) the fossil fuel industry re climate change.  Sow doubt and discord to prevent action. The tactics are tried, tested, and incredibly successful.

Anyway, I digress.  Apologies everyone for derailing the thread.

On a COVID-19 related note, I am now working from home.  As is my partner.  I should be glad, but she has a really loud telephone manner, and the kid next door to our spare room where I have set up office plays Kanye West really loud.

On the plus side I've eaten so much cheese the toilet roll shortage won't be an issue.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Professor Bear on 18 March, 2020, 03:13:06 PM
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 18 March, 2020, 02:01:40 PM

I'd never truly appreciated the power of the media until the last couple of years, having had multiple conversations with people I would otherwise have thought politically fairly sensible, or at least moderately savvy, absolutely convinced that Corbyn was more or less literally Satan.

Supermarkets are currently stripped of products and people don't even know why they bought them, so I'd say the lie that the media doesn't effectively brainwash people has had its day.

What got me about the incredible reach of right wing media was when I recently had to replace all the tvs in the flat, and so without much choice in the matter I ended up with "smart" tvs, which are like regular tvs but cluttered with pop-up ads like you get on your phone.  It is remarkably easy to get into the Youtube app because it comes right up on the screen as an option, which means that the default news videos on Youtube (from places like the Daily Mail and Telegraph YT channels) are right there on your tv, circumventing television broadcasting regulations and likely being watched uncritically by many old biddies who consider it equivalent to anything they see on BBC news.  I can't even imagine the ramifications of the Youtube recommendations algorithm on any lengthy viewing session that begins with a Daily Mail video.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: blackmocco on 18 March, 2020, 04:01:35 PM
Can't lie, sitting in Los Angeles I'm more concerned about people than viruses. LA is notoriously non-neighbourly. I've lived in places before for years and never gotten to know who lived next door. There's a good argument to be made that maybe this city doesn't have the greatest cross-section of humanity seeing as most of the residents are here to "make it" at any cost and genuine human interaction is kinda the opposite of that goal. (Yes, that's a gross generalisation, I know. Truthfully, the people who were born and grew up here are the only ones immune to the call of the Siren) In any case, everyone is hoarding here, a lot of the supermarkets are stripped to the bone and gun sales are booming. I'm hardly here to defend Ireland and her culture from fault but at least back home, I'd feel reasonably confident that if shit went down, people in the immediate vicinity would have my back and I'd have theirs. My mum died last October and I've been living away from home for over twenty years but I was struck by how caring and concerned all her neighbours were for her the last few years, even those of them that barely knew her. In LA, I'm not confident that kind of neighbourly concern is high on people's agendas. Ugh. Time will tell.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Funt Solo on 18 March, 2020, 04:14:35 PM
Quote from: gurnard on 18 March, 2020, 12:04:38 PM
Quote from: shaolin_monkey on 17 March, 2020, 12:10:47 PM
Close schools - starve 1 in 3 kids

This should not be on the list in a civilized nation.

Some quick space math gets 3 million may rely on school meals (https://www.hrw.org/news/2020/03/12/uk-school-closures-could-leave-children-hungry#) out of a student population of approximately 10,320,811 (https://www.besa.org.uk/key-uk-education-statistics/).

So that's 29% (UK).

In the US, it's 22 million (https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/qjdnjx/22-million-kids-rely-on-school-for-meals-heres-what-theyre-doing-during-closures) out of 56.6 million (https://nces.ed.gov/fastfacts/display.asp?id=372), which is 39%. (Highly skewed by area: so in New York City it's 74%.)

I don't know about in the UK, but locally (WA, US) the schools provide meals all through the summer as well: which is why they've been able to quickly start providing takeaway meals during this school closure - they've just switched to the summer model of distribution. The UK could do the same. You could suggest it to your local school, or MP, or..?

---

Moving away from meals, the other thing schools provide is a stable environment and a caring adult presence: which isn't necessarily available at home. In our street, there are at least three elementary age kids who basically look after themselves when school's not on: their parents and other carers are out at work from early to late in poorly paid jobs.

It's not possible to "packed lunch" our way out of those problems.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 18 March, 2020, 05:03:11 PM
Perhaps it's different elsewhere, but outside of school time, you don't get anything in the UK. Even in school time, there are major limits. Basically, you get free meals in infant school, but — at mini-IP's school — have to 'subscribe' to milk. In junior school, you start paying for meals. Outside of term time, there are clubs you can join, but they cost money as well.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Professor Bear on 18 March, 2020, 05:17:33 PM
Quote from: shaolin_monkey on 18 March, 2020, 03:08:46 PM
The point being, I guess, is that we've been screaming this until we are blue in the face for years and nothing has changed. What is the solution though, outside of violent revolution?

Your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 18 March, 2020, 05:46:44 PM
Schools closing from Friday.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: sheridan on 18 March, 2020, 06:21:28 PM
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 18 March, 2020, 05:46:44 PM
Schools closing from Friday.

Though some nurseries and private schools will be involved in taking on children of NHS and other priority workers. 

Exams are suspended for this year.  Children will somehow still get qualifications - quite how has not been revealed, and it's Boris Johnson so details are not in evidence.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Funt Solo on 18 March, 2020, 06:34:49 PM
I've never been a Boris fan, but it's not his fault that this is difficult and doesn't have easy answers. I defy anyone to come up with easy answers to almost any question about daily life at the moment.

How do we educate with closed schools? How do we pay for things without an income?

You can generalize the question: how do we carry on as before when we can't carry on as before? Even realizing what the question is, is difficult. Assume you solve the question of qualifications: do we then send people off to college and university in the Autumn? Or are we still in lock-down then? What jobs exist then? What is the timescale of the curve-flattening exercise?

I predict rationing. And more military involvement. And nationalization of vital industries.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 18 March, 2020, 06:43:05 PM
Or to put it another way: it's total war.

But this time with a virus, not a nation.

This is a familiar if horribly difficult concept, but if we refuse to let our vulnerable be murdered en masse by this thing, which we unequivocally do, then we must accept that the whole of our society and economy has to be redirected to this end for the time being.

And when we win, which we will at enormous cost, we have to take a long hard look like at ourselves and decide what we are prepared to do to stop this happening again.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 18 March, 2020, 07:38:45 PM
While you're doing that, please also prep for the droughts, floods, heatwaves, sea level rise and crop failure that are already with us but getting exponentially worse every year. To quote an archaeologist:

"You really, truly do not want to see the text chains being sent between archaeologists who study collapse of civilizations."

We need to be ready to rock once we're through this, 'cos worse is on its way.

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 18 March, 2020, 07:44:49 PM
At this point, money is exposed as the fiction that it is. The government has two options—pretend that all the old economic 'realities' still apply and let a few hundred thousand people die, or adopt some policies that three months ago we were told were communist heresy and would mean the end of the world.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Dandontdare on 18 March, 2020, 08:47:18 PM
My  nephew's a primary school teacher and even though they're still open to the end of the week, attendance was about 20% yesterday.

"I hope you're not going shopping"  I said to my mum. "Of course not" she replied, "if we need any bits, your dad gets them when he picks up the newspaper"  ::)

Although I think the seriousness is sinking in as she was shocked that there was no gin in Aldi on Monday.

I told work I'd just flown back from Canaries and that I felt fine, no temperature, but I do have a chesty cough (mainly from smoking too much) - they told me not to come in!  :D
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Eamonn Clarke on 18 March, 2020, 09:06:59 PM
Day 18 in the Covid NHS aka project mayhem, and 20% of our staff are off already while we field literally hundreds and hundreds of phone calls. Pausing every now and then to put all the gear on and see patients in our designated isolation room.

The toilet roll phenomenon is affecting prescription supply chains already with numerous requests for paracetamol "just in case", blue salbutamol inhalers "just in case", and "can I have 3 or 6 or even 9 months worth of my repeat prescriptions now, just in case?"

BTW the fact that the paper masks the department of health sent us went past their use by date in 2016 is apparently just fine.

Good luck, everyone.
Stay safe and now please wash your hands.
Eamonn
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Steve Green on 18 March, 2020, 09:12:31 PM
Take care Eamonn,

I would have hoped pictures of a temp morgue being erected in London might persuade people, but seeing clips of fuckwits in gyms wanting to 'take it on the chin' just makes me despair.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 18 March, 2020, 09:14:31 PM
Quote from: shaolin_monkey on 18 March, 2020, 07:38:45 PM
We need to be ready to rock once we're through this, 'cos worse is on its way.

Absolutely. This is a dress rehearsal for the real crisis, but I'm hoping against hope that the fact that no-one knows their cues, marks or lines, and both the sets and the costumes appear to be for a different play entirely, wakes everyone the fuck up.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 18 March, 2020, 09:22:46 PM
Quote from: Eamonn Clarke on 18 March, 2020, 09:06:59 PM

Good luck, everyone.
Stay safe and now please wash your hands.
Eamonn

Hang in there Eamonn, you utter legend. I'm sure I speak for all of us here when I ask that you pass on our thoughts and best wishes to your colleagues too.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 18 March, 2020, 09:47:31 PM
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 18 March, 2020, 07:44:49 PM
At this point, money is exposed as the fiction that it is. The government has two options—pretend that all the old economic 'realities' still apply and let a few hundred thousand people die, or adopt some policies that three months ago we were told were communist heresy and would mean the end of the world.

Indeed.

I suspect, however, that the Powers That Shouldn't Be will use this current situation to further their money-as-chains agenda. They've been trying to eradicate cash for years and replace it with digital currency - which sounds good until one realises that authorities will then be able to switch off any individual's money for any reason. All they have to say is that notes and coins spread the Virus of the Day and people will actually beg for cash to be abolished. Classic problem, reaction, solution.

Personally, I'm not over worried about this latest outbreak. What does worry me is how this situation is going to be used to further curtail freedoms and rights for the masses, and increase the freedoms and rights of "authorities." Sure, steps should be taken to combat the virus - but will those steps be retraced when the crisis is over? I doubt it. Once a government gives itself a power, it rarely gives it up again.

We're going to see a lot of Draconian measures instigated, things authoritarians have been dreaming of for a long time, and people will accept them through fear. Never let a good crisis go to waste.

There's a lot of weird surrounding this year's virus, from the idea that at least one of the five strains of corona originated in the US but was either covered up by or misdiagnosed as a result of vaping to the suggestion that it's a weaponised virus which either breached quarantine or was deployed on purpose. I don't know, to be honest.

Whatever's occurring, I think the best thing to do is act sensibly on a personal level because all the "elites" want to do is use it to spread fear and panic in order to advance their own agendas. Which seems to be working better this time around. When I remember all the other civilisation-ending diseases the MSM has been waving at us for the past few years, I can't help but think about "The Boy Who Cried Wolf." Perhaps the whole planet should remember that fable and demand a better, more balanced media, amongst other things.

I'm not going to get into arguments over this post - this is just how I see things - I may be right and I may be wrong, I really don't know.

Stay well, everyone, and don't give in to the fear.


Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 18 March, 2020, 11:14:16 PM
I know you don't want an argument Sharkie, and I totally accept that: I'd just say that the stats (and their limitations) on this one are fully open from the start thanks to the WHO, and from those this isn't a 'civilisation ending disease', and nor has it been presented as one: civilisation could proceed without the 3-10% largely elderly and vulnerable, as has been suggested by pricks possibly to the benefit of the hale taxpayer: but it turns out that many people aren't prepared to accept that, and would rather turn civilisation upside down than not even try to minimise casualties. I take that show of humanity as a positive.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Professor Bear on 19 March, 2020, 01:38:53 AM
Not to take Sharky's side - because he's a dirty anarcho-commie and we all know syndicalism is where it's at - but Johnson is already signing into law, without a vote in the Commons, a two-year period of what is effectively martial law for the UK, and tbh, I think the only reason we're getting the watered-down version of it is so that our chickenshit troops have their hands free for some pre-planned military adventure.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Cyberleader2000 on 19 March, 2020, 03:07:15 AM
there are times where I think we really need to let darwinism "survival of the fittest" happen and this is one of thros times.

https://sea.mashable.com/culture/9597/disgusting-coronavirus-challenge-has-people-licking-toilet-seats-and-doorknobs
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Eamonn Clarke on 19 March, 2020, 09:47:32 AM
A useful watery analogy

https://youtu.be/nl6tTwxzCi8
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 19 March, 2020, 09:51:36 AM
People are really, really, losing their fucking minds.

Things we aren't going to run out of: milk, eggs, soap, toilet roll and baked beans.

Things we are going to run out of very soon: potatoes and tomatoes, which are largely imported at this time of year. Thanks to Just In Time supply chains, the stuff that would have been in the shops next week probably hasn't even been picked yet... and the places where they grow are all under lockdown.

As a bonus: remember all that flooding? The flooding that stopped UK farmers planting a wide variety of crops earlier this year...?
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 19 March, 2020, 10:15:53 AM
Why the fuck are construction sites - and by extension me and my team - still working? No matter how many social distancing/hygiene measures we enforce, most of the gang still have to get the bus or share lifts. And now the bus services (up to now reasonably empty and well-spaced) have been slashed, so everyone was jammed in this morning again. This is all pure greed.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 19 March, 2020, 12:26:57 PM
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 19 March, 2020, 09:51:36 AM

As a bonus: remember all that flooding? The flooding that stopped UK farmers planting a wide variety of crops earlier this year...?

Yep - it's a perfect storm: food supplies interrupted by climate change, Hostile Environment for migrant workers meaning food left rotting in the fields, European supply chains petering out as folk self-isolate, so many folk ALREADY hungry due to poverty, and of course let's not forget about the effects of Brexit and the complete balls-up which is government right now.

I see trouble ahead.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: sheridan on 19 March, 2020, 12:34:13 PM
Quote from: The Legendary Shark on 18 March, 2020, 09:47:31 PM
Personally, I'm not over worried about this latest outbreak. What does worry me is how this situation is going to be used to further curtail freedoms and rights for the masses, and increase the freedoms and rights of "authorities." Sure, steps should be taken to combat the virus - but will those steps be retraced when the crisis is over? I doubt it. Once a government gives itself a power, it rarely gives it up again.

Don't be silly - after the first world war ended, licensing laws regarding pub opening times were loosened again, weren't they? ...
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: von Boom on 19 March, 2020, 01:01:02 PM
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 19 March, 2020, 09:51:36 AM
People are really, really, losing their fucking minds.

Things we aren't going to run out of: milk, eggs, soap, toilet roll and baked beans.

Things we are going to run out of very soon: potatoes and tomatoes, which are largely imported at this time of year. Thanks to Just In Time supply chains, the stuff that would have been in the shops next week probably hasn't even been picked yet... and the places where they grow are all under lockdown.

As a bonus: remember all that flooding? The flooding that stopped UK farmers planting a wide variety of crops earlier this year...?
My wife's brother-in-law was bragging he had enough toilet roll to last them for at least a year. When I asked if I could get a package, just one mind, he said he'd have to think about it and come up with a suitable value if he did let me have one. Prick.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 19 March, 2020, 01:07:09 PM
Quote from: von Boom on 19 March, 2020, 01:01:02 PMhe said he'd have to think about it and come up with a suitable value if he did let me have one. Prick.

Unbefuckingleivable. Kill the twat. Take what you want. Y'know... if that's how he wants things to work.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: strontium71 on 19 March, 2020, 01:23:54 PM
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 19 March, 2020, 09:51:36 AM
People are really, really, losing their fucking minds.

Things we aren't going to run out of: milk, eggs, soap, toilet roll and baked beans.

Things we are going to run out of very soon: potatoes and tomatoes, which are largely imported at this time of year. Thanks to Just In Time supply chains, the stuff that would have been in the shops next week probably hasn't even been picked yet... and the places where they grow are all under lockdown.

As a bonus: remember all that flooding? The flooding that stopped UK farmers planting a wide variety of crops earlier this year...?

See , I'm thinking what people should start doing is , if they have gardens that is , to assign a patch of their back gardens to crop growing , and get those potatoes in now. Other basics like lettuce , tomatoes , peas. Get them planted now , and with any 'luck' , they'll be coming into their own when there could be shortages. Swap excess crops with neighbours. Your spare potatoes for their spare cabbage. Prepare now , it wouldn't hurt either way. You'll have free food regardless if the shops have enough veg for everyone. It's a war with the virus , so start having that blitz spirit mindset. I don't have a garden or any access to one , but god do I wish I did. I tell fellow workies to start this up in possible readiness , and I just get the usual meh 😕
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: von Boom on 19 March, 2020, 01:28:59 PM
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 19 March, 2020, 01:07:09 PM
Quote from: von Boom on 19 March, 2020, 01:01:02 PMhe said he'd have to think about it and come up with a suitable value if he did let me have one. Prick.

Unbefuckingleivable. Kill the twat. Take what you want. Y'know... if that's how he wants things to work.
Par for the course with this guy.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 19 March, 2020, 01:42:29 PM
Quote from: strontium71 on 19 March, 2020, 01:23:54 PM

See , I'm thinking what people should start doing is , if they have gardens that is , to assign a patch of their back gardens to crop growing , and get those potatoes in now. Other basics like lettuce , tomatoes , peas. Get them planted now , and with any 'luck' , they'll be coming into their own when there could be shortages. Swap excess crops with neighbours. Your spare potatoes for their spare cabbage. Prepare now , it wouldn't hurt either way. You'll have free food regardless if the shops have enough veg for everyone. It's a war with the virus , so start having that blitz spirit mindset. I don't have a garden or any access to one , but god do I wish I did. I tell fellow workies to start this up in possible readiness , and I just get the usual meh 😕

Way ahead of you! (As are quite a few of my mates)

We've been setting up every spare bit of garden that isn't lawn (and some bits that are) to grow all kinds of veg and herbs. My partner went into full-on Brexit preparedness mode after the first leave date was set.

We've already enjoyed bumper crops of potatoes and onions, but we've gone into full production mode now!

Peas, carrots, potatoes, onions, spring onions, strawberries, blackberries, herbs of all shapes and sizes etc etc. She's even planted an apple tree and cherry tree for further down the line.

(https://i.imgur.com/gKHx2dy.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/Jl9v51N.jpg)

I was also considering chickens last year after discussing their cost, care and initial outlay (excuse the pun) with John Wagner at Lawless. Wish I had now, as I'm down to five eggs left and there's none in the shops.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: strontium71 on 19 March, 2020, 01:44:51 PM
That is actually really great to see there! Good work , very good work  :) :)
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 19 March, 2020, 02:13:38 PM
We have whatever the opposite of green fingers are. Any growing tips — and advice for dealing with the seemingly infinite number of slugs in our garden — would be welcome. Perhaps that in itself could be a thread here.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 19 March, 2020, 02:20:53 PM
Good idea.  :D

https://forums.2000ad.com/index.php?topic=46328.0
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 19 March, 2020, 04:21:08 PM
I knew all this felt familiar - I just re-read Issue 46 of Moore's Swamp Thing (it was my second one), and as usual the Magus puts his stained be-ringed finger on it:

"Everyone who's ever hoped to be long dead by doomsday looked up, and the feeling in their stomachs was just as they always knew it would be.  It seemed unfair, but then it had to happen in somebody's lifetime".

Now to dig out the relevant issues of Promethea to see how his views matured...

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Leigh S on 19 March, 2020, 04:57:50 PM
Obvious solution is to shit on his lawn.


Quote from: von Boom on 19 March, 2020, 01:01:02 PM
My wife's brother-in-law was bragging he had enough toilet roll to last them for at least a year. When I asked if I could get a package, just one mind, he said he'd have to think about it and come up with a suitable value if he did let me have one. Prick.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Hawkmumbler on 19 March, 2020, 06:06:06 PM
My main concern is juggling what few hours I can parse from work (40-50 hour week reduced to as little as 12) and keeping home, desperately trying not to pass anything onto my elderly grandparents.

It's quiet frightening times right now lads, not going to lie at all.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Funt Solo on 19 March, 2020, 06:07:26 PM
Run oot o' bog roll? Dinnae fash: get yersel' an erse gadget like wan o' these (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Portable-Personal-Pregnant-Cleansing-Postpartum/dp/B07P4MP4RG/ref=pd_sbs_60_2/260-6199699-8413318?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=B07P4MP4RG&pd_rd_r=b351696c-0db8-44ee-a0ee-a8a23f27c138&pd_rd_w=LaQtZ&pd_rd_wg=BTDpT&pf_rd_p=96cae456-8d7a-4bc1-91c7-9b20b4dfd7c9&pf_rd_r=BAHZ4F50XVT4G03MZBWV&psc=1&refRID=BAHZ4F50XVT4G03MZBWV)!

Ra full title is a bit much, though (and missin' an apostrophe, so it is): "Portable Travel Bidet, Personal Bidet Sprayer for Kids Ass Washing,Pregnant Women Cleansing, Postpartum Clean, Handheld Travel Bidet with 450ML Water Capacity and Angled Nozzle Spray"
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: strontium71 on 19 March, 2020, 06:13:13 PM
Quote from: Hawkmumbler on 19 March, 2020, 06:06:06 PM
My main concern is juggling what few hours I can parse from work (40-50 hour week reduced to as little as 12) and keeping home, desperately trying not to pass anything onto my elderly grandparents.

It's quiet frightening times right now lads, not going to lie at all.

Never thought I'd ever be telling someone I'm frightened, but when half the work staff get put on immediate 3 day week for THREE months , and knowing I'll be next within...dunno , then I , too , am genuinely emotional and a wreck right now. Started off as a not too bad day , considering. Then BAM , people are worrying about just trying to get through the next week , let alone 3 months. Minimum.
I always thought I was unempathic , that I didn't really care about people's lives , as they didn't affect me. Turns out I was very , very wrong.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: moly on 19 March, 2020, 07:41:05 PM
One of the worst things for me is how all this is going to affect people's mental health and the more than likely people committing suicide as the impact gets worse and worse
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 19 March, 2020, 08:36:39 PM
One effect of all this is that we're seeing a whole bunch of conspiracy theories pop up on social media and the web. I won't go into what they are, but you can probably guess.

Dr. John Cook and Dr. Stephan Lewandowsky (Creator and contributor respectively to EDX course 'Denial 101x' - THE online course about understanding the psychology of climate change denial) had planned to release a handbook on conspiracy theories next month. However, they released it today as they could see its needed! It's a short pamphlet of about 10 pages, but a great look at the modus operandi and psychology of conspiracy theorists.

Here you go:


https://www.climatechangecommunication.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/ConspiracyTheoryHandbook.pdf
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Tjm86 on 19 March, 2020, 08:55:57 PM
I must be clearly doing something wrong.  I keep missing all these conspiracy theories. 

Maybe someone is deliberately hiding them from me to keep me ignorant?   ::)

That's a cracking document though.  Well worth the short read.

Thanks for that.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 19 March, 2020, 10:37:41 PM
That's a cracker, cheers for that!
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 20 March, 2020, 08:54:09 AM
No probs.  I don't know about you, but occasionally I've fallen foul of knee-jerk reactions to stuff posted on FB or Twitter without applying critical thought.

This checklist from the pamphlet is particularly useful for me:

Do I recognize the news organization that posted the story?
Does the information in the post seem believable?
Is the post written in a style that I expect from a professional news organization?
Is the post politically motivated?
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IAMTHESYSTEM on 20 March, 2020, 09:43:08 AM
There are expansive queues of people, all armed with trollies outside the local Supermarket every morning for the past three days. The time is at Six O'clock in the morning; I'm usually there buying stuff before I go home, have brekky then walk to work. It calms down a little, but the food stalls remain packed, and one of the staff complained to a customer that she couldn't understand why people are panicking so much. I'm afraid people are scared and perhaps with good reason. My Bosses E-Mailed me to say at least two of my current cleaning jobs will be on hold soon, and that means no pay if I'm not working. Oh well, I 'll just have to take a bit of a hit money-wise, though it's unsettling to think how quickly life has changed.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: paddykafka on 20 March, 2020, 10:50:22 AM
So there I was on the bus yesterday, on my way to do my weekly food shop.

(It was the best of several bad options, as the nearest supermarket to me is about half-an-hours walk; I don't drive, live alone and am socially isolated, so I don't have the option of having someone to call upon - whom I could be certain was not infected - to ferry me back. Plus there's the whole social distancing thing to consider, which makes me averse to using taxis for the same reason.

Online shopping is out as well, given that there is now such a backlog in getting stuff delivered.

I also have COPD, so while I could walk the distance to the market okay, by the time I got back home with several, heavy, awkward bags of shopping, I would not need to wait for Corona to finish me off, lol.)

I had gone up to the top deck of the bus as it was relatively empty; also the noise from kids screeching on the lower deck was too much to deal with. (I am extremely noise sensitive and that kind of thing is like physical pain to me.)

At the far end of the bus, a woman - with a young boy beside her - was close to coughing up her lungs onto the window facing her. I mean, what part of 'Self-Isolate if you think that you're infected' did this moron not understand? While she was far enough away from me, that I can reasonably hope I was out of the firing line as it were, I nevertheless had to go within a couple of feet from her in order to make my way back downstairs and to the exit. I was practically crossing my fingers that she would not start hacking up again as I drew nearer. Luckily I made it down and out of the bus, just as I could hear her once again barking away like billy-oh upstairs.

The return journey was made almost as unpleasant by two late-teen skangers, who were loudly blaring out some shite modern pop music on their phone. My polite and very courteous request for them to turn it down a bit was met with a firm "No! We want to listen to our music!" by the surly, baseball-hatted, male teen of the species. I ended up just getting off the bus as I could not bare this racket anymore. (If there were a virus that exclusively affected ignorant, selfish, obnoxious bastards like them, I would most certainly not be shedding any tears on their behalf).

I'm done with using public transport now for the near-future, as it is just not worth the hassle or distress anymore - especially at a time like this. It looks like I have no other choice than to risk getting a taxi back from now on. And considering that I have a free public-transport travel pass- on account of being on Invalidity Benefit - that pisses me off even more so.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Professor Bear on 20 March, 2020, 12:54:16 PM
Our local buses operate a "no speakers" policy on phones after a bunch of people signed a petition to whoever it is that runs the local routes.  I'm not sure if the drivers and station managers are overreaching their authority, but people don't seem to be in any hurry to overturn the rule, as most routes seem to be choked with obnoxious neds on a sightseeing trip.

My brother works for the DWP and only found out yesterday that somebody who came in to work on St Pat's refused to leave the building when co-workers noticed he was feverish and sweating buckets, as management wouldn't give him a sick day after he was on the premises.  Apparently all of the building managers have decreed themselves as essential staff so they can work from home.
I am beginning to suspect that the DWP is not a good institution.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 20 March, 2020, 01:34:04 PM
Mindscape Bonus Episode | Tara Smith on Coronavirus, Pandemics, and What We Can Do. (https://www.preposterousuniverse.com/podcast/2020/03/18/bonus-tara-smith-on-coronavirus-pandemics-and-what-we-can-do/)
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: paddykafka on 20 March, 2020, 03:10:43 PM
Quote from: Professor Bear on 20 March, 2020, 12:54:16 PM
Our local buses operate a "no speakers" policy on phones after a bunch of people signed a petition to whoever it is that runs the local routes.  I'm not sure if the drivers and station managers are overreaching their authority, but people don't seem to be in any hurry to overturn the rule, as most routes seem to be choked with obnoxious neds on a sightseeing trip.

My brother works for the DWP and only found out yesterday that somebody who came in to work on St Pat's refused to leave the building when co-workers noticed he was feverish and sweating buckets, as management wouldn't give him a sick day after he was on the premises.  Apparently all of the building managers have decreed themselves as essential staff so they can work from home.
I am beginning to suspect that the DWP is not a good institution.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: paddykafka on 20 March, 2020, 03:44:28 PM
Apols for double post, Professor, but I inadvertently pressed the send button before responding to your post.

Interestingly enough, the Parliament here in the Emerald Isle has just finished debating Emergency  Legislation around a number of measures dealing with, and relating to this current virus. Amongst those, are powers that would allow those suspected of being infected with the illness to be forcibly detained.* At the time of writing, this legislation has now been agreed upon and has been passed on to the President for signing into law.

Given some of the clueless and selfish behaviour by people that I have witnessed recently, I can understand the necessity of bringing in such draconian - albeit short term - measures. But while I don't think that this State is in any immediate danger of being turned into a Dictatorship - despite how much we may rightly deride many of our politicians - the thought of such laws being enacted do, at the same time, fill me with a certain amount of unease.

And I would certainly worry about other countries', where certain unscrupulous individuals and regimes might use this current pandemic for their own nefarious ends.

Just out of curiousity, Professor Bear, what does DWP stand for?

*The link to this article is below.

https://www.thejournal.ie/covid-19-emergency-legislation-5052749-Mar2020/
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: sheridan on 20 March, 2020, 04:20:10 PM
Quote from: paddykafka on 20 March, 2020, 03:44:28 PM
Interestingly enough, the Parliament here in the Emerald Isle has just finished debating Emergency  Legislation around a number of measures dealing with, and relating to this current virus. Amongst those, are powers that would allow those suspected of being infected with the illness to be forcibly detained.* At the time of writing, this legislation has now been agreed upon and has been passed on to the President for signing into law.

Funny you should mention that.  On Tuesday (at 23:59 I think, so in effect from Wednesday) the Isle of Man passed powers that people could be fined or confined  if they failed to self-isolate while showing symptoms.  The first person in the UK to be arrested is currently kicking their heels in a specially-prepared police cell right now...

QuoteJust out of curiousity, Professor Bear, what does DWP stand for?

The Department of Work and Pensions.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 20 March, 2020, 06:07:35 PM
Bingeing Fargo at an alarming rate. Charming performances start to finish, offsetting moments of almost suffocating tension. Top stuff.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Hawkmumbler on 20 March, 2020, 06:08:33 PM
Well, that's buggered the self employed.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 20 March, 2020, 06:15:28 PM
Quote from: TordelBack on 20 March, 2020, 06:07:35 PM
Bingeing Fargo at an alarming rate. Charming performances start to finish, offsetting moments of almost suffocating tension. Top stuff.

I may have posted this in the wrong thread. But I suppose it's tangentially relevant.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: paddykafka on 20 March, 2020, 07:30:13 PM
Quote from: sheridan on 20 March, 2020, 04:20:10 PM
Quote from: paddykafka on 20 March, 2020, 03:44:28 PM

Funny you should mention that.  On Tuesday (at 23:59 I think, so in effect from Wednesday) the Isle of Man passed powers that people could be fined or confined  if they failed to self-isolate while showing symptoms.  The first person in the UK to be arrested is currently kicking their heels in a specially-prepared police cell right now...

QuoteJust out of curiousity, Professor Bear, what does DWP stand for?

The Department of Work and Pensions.

Thanks, Professor.

I just finished watching 'V for Vendetta'.

At this point in our shared history, it seems scarily appropriate. Let's stay strong, people, and do what we can to see that we get through the days ahead - and triumph.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 20 March, 2020, 09:18:28 PM
Quote from: Hawkmumbler on 20 March, 2020, 06:08:33 PM
Well, that's buggered the self employed.
My MP has cheerfully stated we "won't be disadvantaged" because we can pay our tax six months late (once, when another six months is due), and because we may be eligible for UC.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Definitely Not Mister Pops on 20 March, 2020, 10:59:52 PM
Quote from: TordelBack on 20 March, 2020, 06:15:28 PM
Quote from: TordelBack on 20 March, 2020, 06:07:35 PM
Bingeing Fargo at an alarming rate. Charming performances start to finish, offsetting moments of almost suffocating tension. Top stuff.

I may have posted this in the wrong thread. But I suppose it's tangentially relevant.

Totally relevant. I need stuff to watch in quarantine and I remember enjoying the 1st 2 series. Although it is a bit of a digression as it lacks your defeated resignation
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 21 March, 2020, 09:24:59 AM
'Serve serve serve. In the end it is the servants who will save us all.'

https://twitter.com/schwarzenegger/status/1240786709022793728?s=21

Did Arnie just turn into a socialist?!

'The workers control the means of production' etc.

After decades of worth being defined by how much cash you have it is so horrible it takes a crisis like this to expose that lie!
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 21 March, 2020, 10:28:29 AM
Epic thread re how South Wales NHS is prepping to care for COVID-19 victims.

It's a must read - a real insight into the 'war footing' hard work that is going on.

https://twitter.com/adavies4/status/1241297992507895808?s=21
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: von Boom on 21 March, 2020, 01:47:09 PM
Called my mum last night to see how things were going there. Everyone seems okay for the moment, but she did tell me that my uncle is in desperate need of quadruple bypass surgery. He's seen the surgeon at the end of the month to discuss the surgery, however it's not likely to happen until the virus situation is somewhat resolved. Given the times we're looking at he's not likely to see the summer.

We need to alter the death toll to include those that aren't receiving necessary treatment because of it.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 21 March, 2020, 02:24:41 PM
Sorry to hear it, von Boom. Here's hoping your uncle can somehow get through this.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Hawkmumbler on 21 March, 2020, 02:45:51 PM
So. I might be going into quarantine.

My manager has been instructed to go into quarantine by HO, she lives with her sister who has been diagnosed with the virus. My last shift was a close with the manager on Wednesday.

I've no nowhere to go besides my family home with the grandparents, an at risk couple.

Honestly have no idea what i'm going to do. After the stress of the last few years this really isn't what I needed from 2020.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Mattofthespurs on 21 March, 2020, 03:18:29 PM
I'll come out of a self imposed ban from this site (writing not reading) just to let you all know that my Wife is on day 11 of having this virus.
She has had a dry cough, very nasty sore throat and a mild temperature. She is on the mend but still gets tired easily and is in a constant state of some pain or another.

However, other than feeling grotty she is ok. She is 51, doesn't smoke, hardly drinks and never gets ill. But she does work in London (the filthy place) and think she picked up a couple of good doses from there.

On the plus side my Son and I had a mild cough and sore throat about a week before so we are all hoping that we have had it and seen it on it's way. Fingers crossed. Stay safe everyone.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: von Boom on 21 March, 2020, 03:24:30 PM
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 21 March, 2020, 02:24:41 PM
Sorry to hear it, von Boom. Here's hoping your uncle can somehow get through this.
Thanks, IP. I really hope he's able to get the surgery in time. He's only 62 and he took me to see Star Wars in the cinema when I was 7. While I was growing up he gifted me with many of his old scifi/fantasy/horror books. I owe him a lot.

Quote from: Hawkmumbler on 21 March, 2020, 02:45:51 PM
So. I might be going into quarantine.

My manager has been instructed to go into quarantine by HO, she lives with her sister who has been diagnosed with the virus. My last shift was a close with the manager on Wednesday.

I've no nowhere to go besides my family home with the grandparents, an at risk couple.

Honestly have no idea what i'm going to do. After the stress of the last few years this really isn't what I needed from 2020.
That's awful news, Hawk. I hope you and your family come out of it unscathed.

Quote from: Mattofthespurs on 21 March, 2020, 03:18:29 PM
I'll come out of a self imposed ban from this site (writing not reading) just to let you all know that my Wife is on day 11 of having this virus.
She has had a dry cough, very nasty sore throat and a mild temperature. She is on the mend but still gets tired easily and is in a constant state of some pain or another.
Glad to hear she's mending, Matt. You haven't been afflicted, I hope.

All the best to everyone.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 21 March, 2020, 03:27:02 PM
Jeez lads! Good thoughts go out to you all, and fingers crossed in every case.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 21 March, 2020, 05:13:20 PM

Vital Facts About Covid-19. (https://www.justfactsdaily.com/vital-facts-about-covid-19/)

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 21 March, 2020, 07:31:39 PM
Fascinating that a right-wing US website can cherry-pick facts with such confidence that they contradict every single medical practioner and statistician in the world.

I presume the authors will be presenting themselves at the 800 Italian funerals resulting from today's no-worse-than-sesonal-flu to inform them that this is all spun out of proportion by the global liberal elite, probably led by Ocasio-Cortez.

Oh wait, they won't, because there won't be any funerals. Not for those poor people, not for the thousands tomortow and the next day, and not for the millions of US citizens that will follow them.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Tjm86 on 21 March, 2020, 07:40:43 PM
Thanks Sharky.  A nice, simple piece of work.  Helpful for panicking relatives, methinks.   

Quote from: The Legendary Shark on 21 March, 2020, 05:13:20 PM

Vital Facts About Covid-19. (https://www.justfactsdaily.com/vital-facts-about-covid-19/)



In the meantime, stay safe folks.

Oh, and if anyone wants a laugh check out recent videos of Trump at press conferences.

There's a great one where he goes full "toddler-tantrum" at a reporter for asking the wrong question and another one where one of his advisers does a face-palm / grimace as he listens to some of the crap Trump spouts.   :o :o :o :o
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Hawkmumbler on 21 March, 2020, 07:53:45 PM
Quote from: The Legendary Shark on 21 March, 2020, 05:13:20 PM

Vital Facts About Covid-19. (https://www.justfactsdaily.com/vital-facts-about-covid-19/)

JustFactDaily is an affiliate of known snake oil merchant Alex Jones and his conspiracy train Info Wars, Sharks.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: JOE SOAP on 21 March, 2020, 08:02:53 PM
Quote from: The Legendary Shark on 21 March, 2020, 05:13:20 PM
Vital Facts About Covid-19. (https://www.justfactsdaily.com/vital-facts-about-covid-19/)

The daily look of 'this wasn't supposed to happen on my watch' terror on Boris's face tells me the consequences of COVID-19 are not hype.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Funt Solo on 21 March, 2020, 08:06:51 PM
Quote from: The Legendary Shark on 21 March, 2020, 05:13:20 PM
Vital Facts About Covid-19. (https://www.justfactsdaily.com/vital-facts-about-covid-19/)

I do wonder about your motivations, Shark. I assume you've heard of Occam's Razor (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor). If you apply that idea here you just have to ask the simple question of what's more likely?

A. The WHO and plenty of other reputable scientific sources, plus evidence from Italy and China are persuading governments around the world to put their entire economies on hold in order to try and halt the spread of a virus which probably has about a 1% mortality rate and is threatening to overwhelm health service infrastructures on a global scale - which would push that death rate MUCH HIGHER.

B. They're all wrong, but you found the truth on a shit website.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Mattofthespurs on 21 March, 2020, 08:07:05 PM
Quote from: von Boom on 21 March, 2020, 03:24:30 PM

Glad to hear she's mending, Matt. You haven't been afflicted, I hope.

All the best to everyone.

Thanks. Best wishes.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Definitely Not Mister Pops on 21 March, 2020, 08:58:39 PM
Quote from: Funt Solo on 21 March, 2020, 08:06:51 PM
Quote from: The Legendary Shark on 21 March, 2020, 05:13:20 PM
Vital Facts About Covid-19. (https://www.justfactsdaily.com/vital-facts-about-covid-19/)

I do wonder about your motivations, Shark. I assume you've heard of Occam's Razor (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam%27s_razor).

I like Newton's Lazer Sword* personally. It's both more precise and more dangerous.

*Anything that can't be proved by experiment should be discounted.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Funt Solo on 22 March, 2020, 02:36:15 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EMyowi6WsAEvL5H.jpg)
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 22 March, 2020, 07:28:33 AM
Quote from: Funt Solo on 22 March, 2020, 02:36:15 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EMyowi6WsAEvL5H.jpg)
Quote from: Funt Solo on 22 March, 2020, 02:36:15 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EMyowi6WsAEvL5H.jpg)

Heh, that gave me a giggle :D

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 22 March, 2020, 08:53:26 AM
Funt is a very bad man. But chuckles are in short supply this morning, so he's forgiven.

Dreading going in to work tomorrow, the Shark Shed seems like a better place to be visiting losing oneself in off-the-wall thinkifying and Ezquerra chat over a pipe or two of the Longbottom Leaf. Stay safe mate, and one day I'll carry out my threat.

For now i'm instead enjoying Rebellion's ingenious gift of a story about a population driven insane by a contaminant from the East prior to the breakdown of society and mass-executions in the street, and the death of half its citizens. Such an escape from grim reality!

Casefiles 5 looks amazing on my phone, the repro seems gorgeous. However, as always I struggle with comic on a screen. Anyone suggest the best viewing App for a pretty teeny Android?
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 22 March, 2020, 08:54:46 AM
Double Post Deleted
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 22 March, 2020, 10:00:13 AM
Just in case anyone was uncertain what actual honest-to-God evil looks like, here's a snippet from today's Sunday Times by Tim Shipman, their political editor:

(https://i.imgur.com/MPU34Uu.jpg)
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 22 March, 2020, 10:10:54 AM
I came here to post that exact same things. His 'tactic' lost us days of preventative measures and has likely cost hundreds of lives.

When this is over, let us not forget who brought it upon us.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 22 March, 2020, 10:28:10 AM
Quote from: shaolin_monkey on 22 March, 2020, 10:10:54 AM
When this is over, let us not forget who brought it upon us.

I'm not a fan of violence in any form, but I find myself thinking that if Dominic Cummings' political career ended with a lamp post and a length of piano wire, I wouldn't shed many tears.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: strontium71 on 22 March, 2020, 10:32:19 AM
For anyone stuck indoors , and likes the radio , I've just come across this link to a dead-easy to use Worldwide station finder. I'm listening to an Oz 80's station , and it's like I'm playing Vice City again!

http://radio.garden/visit/mazara-del-vallo/CSkOWLOq
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 22 March, 2020, 10:44:59 AM
Quote from: shaolin_monkey on 22 March, 2020, 10:10:54 AMWhen this is over, let us not forget who brought it upon us.
People will. The Tories will, I'm certain, end up following Trump in blaming the Chinese. When we fall out of EU agencies and the single market, ongoing shortages will be blamed on the EU. It's of course hyperbolic to say we're on a Norsefire trajectory, but we're not a million miles away from that. People are their own worst enemies sometimes, and the Tories are currently polling with an absolute majority (which, if repeated in a GE, hasn't happened since 1931, and would give them well over 400 MPs).

Alternatively, just maybe we'll get a backlash, akin to Churchill after WW2. (And hopefully by that point a decent Labour administration will be around.)

As for C19, the reality is hitting home here. I now feel guilty about going into town, because it wasn't entirely necessary, although I did buy supplies (we have a delivery arriving on Tuesday, but locals have been getting as little as 25% of their orders), and get medication for myself (although I have a small overflow that I built up as we headed towards Brexit). I mean, it wasn't going to pubs, but...

Mrs IP's spiralling. If she stops and thinks, she gets tearful. Iceland stated they are likely to stop all flights soon, and so today she said "I really hope nothing happens to my family, because..." and just kind of stopped. But even internal stuff is going to be like that soon enough.

Mini-G's still bouncy at least. For her right now, this is an extended school holiday, albeit one where her gymnastics sessions are cancelled, and where she's not allowed to see her friends or grandparents. And if we end up with Spain-style lockdown, she won't be allowed out of the house either. I'm at this point very grateful we have a garden at least, which is slowly transforming into something usable after a winter of pretending to be a swamp. (Even our 7kg dog 'sank' in the 'grass' when he went out to do a wee!)
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: sheridan on 22 March, 2020, 11:43:01 AM
Quote from: shaolin_monkey on 22 March, 2020, 10:10:54 AM
I came here to post that exact same things. His 'tactic' lost us days of preventative measures and has likely cost hundreds of lives.

When this is over, let us not forget who brought it upon us.
We live about half-way between a primary school and the borough hospital.  A few days ago one of the teachers from the school died in the hospital.  If Johnson had called the schools out earlier, would she still be alive?  What about all the other teachers, staff and children at the school?
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: sheridan on 22 March, 2020, 11:45:27 AM
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 22 March, 2020, 10:44:59 AM
Quote from: shaolin_monkey on 22 March, 2020, 10:10:54 AMWhen this is over, let us not forget who brought it upon us.
People will. The Tories will, I'm certain, end up following Trump in blaming the Chinese. When we fall out of EU agencies and the single market, ongoing shortages will be blamed on the EU
Unfortunately I think you're right.  Even in the midst of Johnson completely failing to show any leadership qualities, before we broke up for home-working at least two people at work said what a great job he was doing.  That was when they were being forced to use public transport (about 80% of usual passengers) with one fifth of usual services.  Even those who normally managed to get seats ended up pressed up against strangers for half an hour.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 22 March, 2020, 12:33:23 PM

You're always welcome, Tordels - as are you all (I'm not nearly so scary in real life...).

Anyhoo, I've been reading some second-hand reports about a Bloomberg report - unfortunately, my 'phone can't access the Bloomberg site at all (annoying transcoding error). I'll post what the reports of this report typically say and then the link. If anyone feels like it, could you possibly check the link to see if the reports of the report are real and/or accurate and pass on any links that might be included? Thanks, guys:)

Typical report of the Bloomberg report:

"More than 99% of Italy's coronavirus fatalities were people
who suffered from previous medical conditions, according
to a study by the country's national health authority.
After deaths from the virus reached more than 2,500, with a
150% increase in the past week, health authorities have
been combing through data to provide clues to help combat
the spread of the disease.
Prime Minister Giuseppe Conte's government is evaluating
whether to extend a nationwide lockdown beyond the
beginning of April, daily La Stampa reported Wednesday.
Italy has more than 31,500 confirmed cases of the illness.
The new study could provide insight into why Italy's death
rate, at about 8% of total infected people, is higher than in
other countries.
The Rome-based institute has examined medical records of
about 18% of the country's coronavirus fatalities, finding
that just three victims, or 0.8% of the total, had no previous
pathology. Almost half of the victims suffered from at least
three prior illnesses and about a fourth had either one or
two previous conditions.
More than 75% had high blood pressure, about 35% had
diabetes and a third suffered from heart disease.
The average age of those who've died from the virus in Italy
is 79.5. As of March 17, 17 people under 50 had died from
the disease. All of Italy's victims under 40 have been males
with serious existing medical conditions.
While data released Tuesday point to a slowdown in the
increase of cases, with a 12.6% rise, a separate study shows
Italy could be underestimating the real number of cases by
testing only patients presenting symptoms.
According to the GIMBE Foundation, about 100,000 Italians
have contracted the virus, daily Il Sole 24 Ore reported. That
would bring back the country's death rate closer to the
global average of about 2%.
© Copyright 2020 Bloomberg News. All rights reserved."

And the supposed link:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-03-18/99-of-those-who-died-from-virus-had-other-illness-italy-says


Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 22 March, 2020, 12:55:24 PM

Coronavirus bill: summary of impacts. (https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-bill-summary-of-impacts/coronavirus-bill-summary-of-impacts)

"The policy makes provision to postpone elections in England
and Wales scheduled for 7th May 2020 by a year to 6 May
2021. It also makes provision for other relevant elections
and referendums that may arise (for example, by-elections)
to be postponed up to 5 May 2021, and for supplementary
provisions to be made to handle the consequences of any
election postponements."

Eek...
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Tjm86 on 22 March, 2020, 02:13:21 PM
Quote from: sheridan on 22 March, 2020, 11:43:01 AM
A few days ago one of the teachers from the school died in the hospital.  If Johnson had called the schools out earlier, would she still be alive?  What about all the other teachers, staff and children at the school?

Fair question.  That said, the 'school closure' is a complete and utter dog's breakfast.  Some schools are open, others are not.  No one really knows who is going to be available to provide staffing or where they are expected to go.  Then again, no one knows how many kids are going to turn up.  FUBAR is definitely an appropriate acronym.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: JOE SOAP on 22 March, 2020, 02:18:24 PM
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 22 March, 2020, 10:00:13 AM
Just in case anyone was uncertain what actual honest-to-God evil looks like, here's a snippet from today's Sunday Times by Tim Shipman, their political editor:

The final paragraph implies worse.

(https://i.imgur.com/1EcGSn6.jpg)
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 22 March, 2020, 02:43:33 PM
Quote from: JOE SOAP on 22 March, 2020, 02:18:24 PM
The final paragraph implies worse.

This was the cause for much disbelief among myself and friends at the last pub meet-up we figured we were going to have for quite some time a few of weeks back.

The government was still actively peddling this line at the time, and you don't have to be a fucking epidemiologist to be able to multiply the UK population by a selection of predicted contagion rates and then by a pretty modest estimate of mortality rate.

Leaving aside the simple fact that 60-80% of the population infected doesn't get you to herd immunity, 60% at 0.7% mortality gives you more than 268,000 dead. You slide either of those numbers up significantly — like, say, to the 90%+ of the population with antibodies that you actually need for herd immunity, and you end up with a number in the region of the entire population of Liverpool or Bristol.

And that's before you attempt to factor in the simple truth that infections at that scale would be untreatable and people would just be left to die in emergency hospitals.

There's that Dominic Cummings 'genius' in action.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Professor Bear on 22 March, 2020, 03:09:41 PM
Quote from: shaolin_monkey on 22 March, 2020, 10:10:54 AM
When this is over, let us not forget who brought it upon us.

The UK media has already forgotten that Johnson's plan was to let hundreds of thousands die in order to preserve the economy, and there's currently a viral video of Trump going off on a journalist for not asking "the right questions".  The media won't help us, they'll actively work against us, and it's been made clear by the myopic politics of British centrists over the last few years that we'll never be allowed to have a viable opposition, no matter what Tory-lite scam artist ends up being crowned leader and lauded as "the savior of Labour" by people who never vote Labour and never will.
We are on our own and we're fucked.

When most of us emerge on the other side of this, there might be an expectation that the NHS, staffed by people who currently won't see their homes for weeks or months - and some of those will never see their homes again - might be appreciated for its efforts, but I'll bet you actual money that what we'll see instead is capitalisation on this disaster to replace the NHS with a private model by hook or by crook.
If I was a Tory, I'd be subtle and say we need to draft in more private contractors to replace exhausted NHS staff and create jobs for those left unemployed by the lockdown, but bereft of a media to hold them to account, they'll probably just put American healthcare companies in charge of hospitals right off the bat (Richard Branson's notoriously shitty and litigious Virgin Healthcare is going to make out like a bandit) even as US hospitals struggle with their own disastrous workload.  This is going to be a huge payday for the usual parasites.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: JOE SOAP on 22 March, 2020, 03:15:43 PM
Quote from: Professor Bear on 22 March, 2020, 03:09:41 PM
I'll bet you actual money that what we'll see instead is capitalisation on this disaster to replace the NHS with a private model by hook or by crook.

QFT (in advance)
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 22 March, 2020, 03:59:00 PM
Quote from: JOE SOAP on 22 March, 2020, 03:15:43 PM
Quote from: Professor Bear on 22 March, 2020, 03:09:41 PM
I'll bet you actual money that what we'll see instead is capitalisation on this disaster to replace the NHS with a private model by hook or by crook.

QFT (in advance?

I don't think it'd even be worth asking Paddy Power for the odds on that one.

Watched about 40 cyclists crowded around outdoor cafe tables and benches in a village today as we wished my MiL a happy Mother's Day across her garden wall, from the safe distance of the kerb. Then watched her 95 year neighbour slowly navigate a way through the press of  lycra.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 22 March, 2020, 04:22:26 PM
Quote from: Professor Bear on 22 March, 2020, 03:09:41 PM
I'll bet you actual money

Actual money is no good any more. Got any toilet paper?
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Leigh S on 22 March, 2020, 04:25:47 PM
And thats all before the collateral deaths from people ill with other serious conditions not able to access support...
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Professor Bear on 22 March, 2020, 06:34:29 PM
Apologies if this has been posted before, but here's a link to the Johns Hopkins Coronavirus map which is updated every second and is tracking both infection rates and fatalities globally, so you can be terrified in real time via a fun interactive map (https://coronavirus.jhu.edu/map.html).
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Old Tankie on 22 March, 2020, 08:08:09 PM
We live in an extra care housing scheme, half of us are doing our best not to die and are completely self-isolating, while the other half haven't got a clue what's going on! Groups of family members turning up to give their mothers bunches of flowers! Strange times.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IAMTHESYSTEM on 23 March, 2020, 11:44:36 AM
That sounds rough Tankie, keep the faith and all that. Less crowded in the morning at the Supermarket, not so long a queue, but I feel that's because the initial shock is fading and having stocked up enough, people feel safer. I'm afraid my Bosses E-Mailed to say two of my morning jobs are on hold for the moment. The country's and the world is going through a lean period, and I'm too small an operator to dodge that flak. Billionaire Richard Branson, however, gave two months unpaid leave to his cabin crew, while working on his tan on some Caribbean Island somewhere.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 23 March, 2020, 01:47:24 PM
I'm glad to hear people in various spots saying things are improving at supermarkets. I hope that makes it around here. 100m queues reported at a local massive Tesco earlier this morning. Although someone had success at the nearby Aldi, which was surprisingly stocked. They even managed to get some eggs. Entertainingly, our local Co-op is now keeping eggs "behind the counter", like some kind of oddball food porn.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Rately on 23 March, 2020, 01:50:34 PM
I can't even find the words to describe the rage in me at the Politicians who rather than act decisively, are spinning. When those plates come down, I hope you are never able to show your faces in public again, and that that is the east of your punishment.

Disgusting.

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: von Boom on 23 March, 2020, 02:45:32 PM
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 23 March, 2020, 01:47:24 PM
I'm glad to hear people in various spots saying things are improving at supermarkets. I hope that makes it around here. 100m queues reported at a local massive Tesco earlier this morning. Although someone had success at the nearby Aldi, which was surprisingly stocked. They even managed to get some eggs. Entertainingly, our local Co-op is now keeping eggs "behind the counter", like some kind of oddball food porn.
Hopefully the twats that have been panic buying are stocked up and will let the rest of us have a shot at some much needed supplies.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: sintec on 23 March, 2020, 02:57:42 PM
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 23 March, 2020, 01:47:24 PM
Entertainingly, our local Co-op is now keeping eggs "behind the counter", like some kind of oddball food porn.

Our local Spar used to do this with bacon, presumably because it was commonly stolen, always amused me though
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Recrewt on 23 March, 2020, 03:22:28 PM
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 23 March, 2020, 01:47:24 PM
I'm glad to hear people in various spots saying things are improving at supermarkets. I hope that makes it around here. 100m queues reported at a local massive Tesco earlier this morning. Although someone had success at the nearby Aldi, which was surprisingly stocked. They even managed to get some eggs. Entertainingly, our local Co-op is now keeping eggs "behind the counter", like some kind of oddball food porn.

I'm working from home now but before that I had to travel about 20 miles from where I live and the difference in locations is quite stark.  I live in a county town which is over supplied with supermarkets so the supply here is better.  Where I work, there are fewer shops and they have been stripped bare.

Last Friday morning near work, I have never seen the shops so busy.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Cyberleader2000 on 23 March, 2020, 05:10:10 PM
just found out a friends mom is in hospital and has now been confirmed as having the dam virus.
whats worses is hes been working nightshifts with another friend of mine last week and I was hanging out with said other friend all of last week so now im more worried about this couf I have.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 23 March, 2020, 05:20:17 PM

Out on our gardening rounds today in this fine weather, few people seemed concerned. In fact, whilst doing the gardens adjacent to fairly well travelled roads, more people than usual stopped for a quick natter about nothing in particular.

The only hitch was our last customer, an elderly lady who usually makes us a brew and let's us use the toilet, declared herself in lockdown (which is fair enough, of course) - so no brew and no toilet. Had to do the last hour of weeding with crossed legs and a clenched jaw. (It's just weeding, wee-ding, WEE-ding - think about deserts, think about deserts... Nnng...)

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Angry Vince on 23 March, 2020, 06:10:04 PM
As a kiwi, I thought my fellow NZ'ers were smart enough people. Events of the past month have proven me wrong on a daily basis.
I'm working for an FMCG company in NZ (we make bread, fresh & UHT milk, flour, butter, spreads etc.) so for the past three weeks my team have been working all hours trying to keep the country in stock as more and more people have been panic buying*

All of this stuff is locally made and the only thing preventing it being on the supermarket shelves is the legion of apocalyptic muppets (Apocamuppets?) buying like crazy.

And of course toilet paper has been flying off the shelves.

The reason why everyone has been hoarding toilet paper became abundantly clear when our PM announced a lockdown starting tomorrow and the country collective shat it pants.

Panic buying on a national scale, but not in a way that makes sense - most supermarkets were swamped and overwhelmed. The one that I walk past on the way home from work was deserted as was the superette near home.

People are, collectively, fucking morons.

* We have since renamed panic buying as Sudden Temporary UnPlanned Increased Demand

<edited for grammar>
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Tjm86 on 23 March, 2020, 06:19:17 PM
Quote from: Cyberleader2000 on 23 March, 2020, 05:10:10 PM
... now im more worried about this couf I have.

This is the irritating (possibly not the best phrase) part of this situation.  Normally we wouldn't bat an eyelid at a cough this time of year.  Now it is one more thing to stress over.

Stay frosty though ...
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Funt Solo on 23 March, 2020, 07:02:34 PM
The Tories, all the time: "Being selfish is good!"
The Tories, now: "Why is everyone being so selfish?"

* perhaps belongs on the political thread
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Professor Bear on 23 March, 2020, 07:05:46 PM
Tories, 2019: What Corbyn proposes cannot be done, there no money for it.
Tories, now: Here's all that Corbyn wanted and even some UBI shit right on top for good measure, AND an extra trillion for landlords and the banks.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 23 March, 2020, 07:05:59 PM
Quote from: Funt Solo on 23 March, 2020, 07:02:34 PM
The Tories, all the time: "Being selfish is good!"
The Tories, now: "Why is everyone being so selfish?"

Tories, 2016-2020: "We've all had enough of experts — don't let the liberal elite tell you what to do!"

Also Tories, 2020: "Why won't anyone listen to the experts and let the liberal elite tell them what to do?"
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: pauljholden on 23 March, 2020, 07:08:59 PM
Quote from: Cyberleader2000 on 23 March, 2020, 05:10:10 PM
just found out a friends mom is in hospital and has now been confirmed as having the dam virus.
whats worses is hes been working nightshifts with another friend of mine last week and I was hanging out with said other friend all of last week so now im more worried about this couf I have.

Stay safe Cyber leader, it's likely if you have it you'll come through the other side unscathed, but thoughts with you buddy!
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Tjm86 on 23 March, 2020, 07:12:51 PM
Tories 2010 - 2019:  NHS workers are underworked, overpaid wasters ...
Tories 2020: NHS workers are heroes, the lifeblood of the nation and we all need to get behind them ...

[Actually, is it worth shifting this to a new thread?  Day of Chaos 2 Fallout:  Tory Hypocrisy]
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: The Enigmatic Dr X on 23 March, 2020, 07:21:08 PM
When do we see police on the street, authorised to summarily dispense justice?

I reckon in about an hour...
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: pauljholden on 23 March, 2020, 08:02:48 PM
Well, that's it then:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-51999604

Coronavirus: Greggs to close all stores to prevent spread

I can't believe they preempted the PMs announcement of it an hour early, though.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Professor Bear on 23 March, 2020, 08:39:53 PM
Neither the government or its ministers - including the PM - have run a single Coronavirus ad on any of their social media accounts, despite being offered millions in free advertising credit by Facebook to do so. (https://news.sky.com/story/coronavirus-govt-hasnt-run-ads-on-pandemic-from-official-social-media-accounts-11962386)
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 23 March, 2020, 08:53:06 PM

Even though we didn't pick MERS or SARS or H1N1 or swine 'flu or Ebola or any of the other viruses you've heard of, it was just a coincidence that our exercise used Coronavirus two months before the actual outbreak  - honest... (http://www.centerforhealthsecurity.org/newsroom/center-news/2020-01-24-Statement-of-Clarification-Event201.html)

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 23 March, 2020, 09:03:21 PM
Quote from: The Legendary Shark on 23 March, 2020, 08:53:06 PM

Even though we didn't pick MERS or SARS or H1N1 or swine 'flu or Ebola or any of the other viruses you've heard of, it was just a coincidence that our exercise used Coronavirus two months before the actual outbreak  - honest... (http://www.centerforhealthsecurity.org/newsroom/center-news/2020-01-24-Statement-of-Clarification-Event201.html)

'Coronavirus' is a general class of virus that includes SARS and MERS, for fuck's sake.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: sheridan on 23 March, 2020, 09:07:38 PM
Quote from: The Enigmatic Dr X on 23 March, 2020, 07:21:08 PM
When do we see police on the street, authorised to summarily dispense justice?

I reckon in about an hour...
You're wrong - it was an hour and ten minutes ;)
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Definitely Not Mister Pops on 23 March, 2020, 09:31:54 PM
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 23 March, 2020, 09:03:21 PM
Quote from: The Legendary Shark on 23 March, 2020, 08:53:06 PM

Even though we didn't pick MERS or SARS or H1N1 or swine 'flu or Ebola or any of the other viruses you've heard of, it was just a coincidence that our exercise used Coronavirus two months before the actual outbreak  - honest... (http://www.centerforhealthsecurity.org/newsroom/center-news/2020-01-24-Statement-of-Clarification-Event201.html)

'Coronavirus' is a general class of virus that includes SARS and MERS, for fuck's sake.

(https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/coronavirus_name_2x.png)
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Recrewt on 23 March, 2020, 11:53:24 PM
Quote from: Funt Solo on 23 March, 2020, 07:02:34 PM
The Tories, all the time: "Being selfish is good!"
The Tories, now: "Why is everyone being so selfish?"

* perhaps belongs on the political thread

It does make you wonder if Boris is going through some sort of existential crisis at the moment.

It's all good and well telling everyone that you're a libertarian and that no one should have a 'nanny state' telling them what to do until you suddenly realise that your cavalier attitude will lead to the deaths of everyone's gran and grandad.

Maybe it wasn't such a good idea to run the nhs and social care into the ground and perhaps some of those 'non-jobs' that we were told needed shedding like say epidemiologists, might actually have been useful. 

Interesting that one of the suggested measures is to have local authorities deliver food to vulnerable people's homes.  Makes you wonder why we never had this in the past.  Oh we did, but then the budgets all got slashed so we could spend billions on Brexit!   
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 24 March, 2020, 06:51:23 AM
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 23 March, 2020, 09:03:21 PM
Quote from: The Legendary Shark on 23 March, 2020, 08:53:06 PM

Even though we didn't pick MERS or SARS or H1N1 or swine 'flu or Ebola or any of the other viruses you've heard of, it was just a coincidence that our exercise used Coronavirus two months before the actual outbreak  - honest... (http://www.centerforhealthsecurity.org/newsroom/center-news/2020-01-24-Statement-of-Clarification-Event201.html)

'Coronavirus' is a general class of virus that includes SARS and MERS, for fuck's sake.

Which is why they always use the word 'Coronavirus' instead of MERS or SARS in the news, for fuck's sake.

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 24 March, 2020, 07:19:24 AM
Quote from: The Legendary Shark on 24 March, 2020, 06:51:23 AM
Which is why they always use the word 'Coronavirus' instead of MERS or SARS in the news, for fuck's sake.

You literally just made a post that implied that they were different things. You actually said: "Even though we didn't pick MERS or SARS or H1N1 or swine 'flu or Ebola or any of the other viruses you've heard of, it was just a coincidence that our exercise used Coronavirus".

Your own link makes it very clear that they were modelling a coronavirus, which, by definition, could have included a new strain of SARS or MERS, not the specific COVID-19 strain. You're reading a conspiracy into lazy journalistic shorthand and you could have debunked your own 'story' if you'd taken thirty seconds to double check the definition of 'coronavirus'.

Just. Fucking. Stop.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Tjm86 on 24 March, 2020, 07:26:15 AM
Quote from: pauljholden on 23 March, 2020, 08:02:48 PM
Well, that's it then:

Coronavirus: Greggs to close all stores to prevent spread


What????? NOOOOOOOOOOOoOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

That's the end of British civilisation!   :crazy:
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 24 March, 2020, 10:15:40 AM
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 24 March, 2020, 07:19:24 AM
Quote from: The Legendary Shark on 24 March, 2020, 06:51:23 AM
Which is why they always use the word 'Coronavirus' instead of MERS or SARS in the news, for fuck's sake.

You literally just made a post that implied that they were different things. You actually said: "Even though we didn't pick MERS or SARS or H1N1 or swine 'flu or Ebola or any of the other viruses you've heard of, it was just a coincidence that our exercise used Coronavirus".

Your own link makes it very clear that they were modelling a coronavirus, which, by definition, could have included a new strain of SARS or MERS, not the specific COVID-19 strain. You're reading a conspiracy into lazy journalistic shorthand and you could have debunked your own 'story' if you'd taken thirty seconds to double check the definition of 'coronavirus'.

Just. Fucking. Stop.

Which is why I used the word 'coincidence,' which is exactly what it might be.  Also, I wouldn't call this a conspiracy per-se. It might just be people suspecting a coronavirus event had already started or was about to start trying to get ahead of the curve, or it might be just some random study coincidentally hitting on the global buzzword of the day.

In any case, the information's there for you to do with as you will. I'm glad you seem to know for certain exactly what Event 201 was about, Jim, because I don't.

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Molch-R on 24 March, 2020, 11:27:07 AM
I'm going to step in at this point and provide a little guidance on this thread.

Anyone posting misinformation, conspiracy theories, or scare-stories from dodgy sources will have their posts removed and bans may be handed out for repeat offenders. If you don't see where the line is drawn by my previous sentence, don't post.

A lot of people are scared and under extraordinary stress, this is not the time to spread misinformation that will stoke panic or fear. Please practice a little empathy and think about the safety and well-being of other human beings.


Emboldened for emphasis — IP
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 24 March, 2020, 12:14:26 PM

Please define misinformation and conspiracy theories so we're all on the same page. Also, how does one define a dodgy site?

Thanks in advance.

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Molch-R on 24 March, 2020, 12:35:03 PM
"If you don't see where the line is drawn by my previous sentence, don't post."
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 24 March, 2020, 12:46:09 PM

Your site, your rules.

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Funt Solo on 24 March, 2020, 02:36:36 PM
In this time of almost constant stress you can mitigate feelings of helplessness by setting yourself achievable goals. Also, it may be wise to limit your time spent on news stories (or other information - perhaps including this thread) related to the outbreak.

"Notice that the stiffest tree is most easily cracked, while the bamboo or willow survives by bending with the wind." - Bruce Lee
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Rately on 24 March, 2020, 02:46:01 PM
I've been employed by the wife to paint the house. Badly.

Once that's done, I'm getting the garden tidied and ready for summer and we are hopefully going to get around to planting lots of veg, in hopes it grows and we can get a foothold before Lord Humungous makes his calls.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 24 March, 2020, 02:56:11 PM

I'm actually too busy digging trenches for drainage and power/water (and contemplating that this activity, rather than The Virus, is more likely to see me off) to spend as much time as I'd like researching the current situation.

Afraid, though? Nah, not me. Wary, perhaps, or concerned, but not afraid. That said, I'm not insensitive to the fact that many people are afraid and it's not my intention to stoke that fear. It is my belief that free and frank discussion is a good antidote to fear, but that's just my position.

I apologise if I've scared anyone.

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 24 March, 2020, 03:43:07 PM
Quote from: Funt Solo on 24 March, 2020, 02:36:36 PM
Also, it may be wise to limit your time spent on news stories (or other information - perhaps including this thread) related to the outbreak.

I endorse this message.  After some months of very little sleep broken by the tiny glow of phone screens at 3am, the good woman and I have set designated times and strictly limited durations for news/social media doomsurfing, and ceded each other powers of enforcement. This has helped our evenings, mornings and stress levels immensely.  The judgmental cry of "you'd better be looking at tits on that thing" is an unexpected bonus.

Stress will be further reduced when they shut my bloody site, which please almighty grud will be tomorrow, because being responsible for the infection-control of a team of 12 people 8 hours a day on a busy building site is WAY above anything I can bill for.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Definitely Not Mister Pops on 24 March, 2020, 08:01:21 PM
Finally working from home. It's astounding how technologically illiterate people a mere half decade older than me are. If anything, this is proof that commuting into an office for a job that can be done online is silly
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 25 March, 2020, 05:34:33 PM
Phew, i can go home, my clients finally pulled the plug. And in the process earned my respect by paying everyone in full up to the end of their current contract - unexpected and unprecedented in my 30+ years experience.

I'm self-employed, and have a mountain of off-site work to do, so it doesn't apply to me, but one direct consequence is that several colleagues have volunteered to complete various outstanding off-site tasks,despite being paid in full anyway. That's yer virtuous circle right there.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 25 March, 2020, 05:54:45 PM
That's great news, TB. Put your feet up, if only for a little while, and enjoy your libation of choice.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 25 March, 2020, 05:55:59 PM
Waaaay ahead of you, Jim!
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Hawkmumbler on 25 March, 2020, 06:40:33 PM
Well done Tordels, good to see some decency left in the world. Mortified to see two of my former employers among the scum jumping through hoops to keep their stores open. Makes me weep.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: paddykafka on 25 March, 2020, 06:46:41 PM
Glad to hear that, Tordelback. Personally, during these times, I've found that a glass of whiskey, taken in the late evening, has quite a calming effect upon me.

I foresee a separate thread now arising, along the lines of: "This Week, I have mostly been drinking..."

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Hawkmumbler on 25 March, 2020, 06:49:36 PM
Quote from: paddykafka on 25 March, 2020, 06:46:41 PM
I foresee a separate thread now arising, along the lines of: "This Week, I have mostly been drinking..."

I'll start, Jose Cuervo Especial Reposado.

Neat.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Definitely Not Mister Pops on 25 March, 2020, 08:04:28 PM
Quote from: Hawkmumbler on 25 March, 2020, 06:49:36 PM
Quote from: paddykafka on 25 March, 2020, 06:46:41 PM
I foresee a separate thread now arising, along the lines of: "This Week, I have mostly been drinking..."

I'll start, Jose Cuervo Especial Reposado.

Neat.

Raspberry mead I made for my sister's (now cancelled) wedding.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 25 March, 2020, 08:20:02 PM

Coffee.

Lots of coffee.

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 26 March, 2020, 08:22:08 AM
I had several Peroni and a whole bottle of Pinot Grigio last night - won't be repeating that any time soon.  :sick:

I think I'll stick to the occasional whisky from this point on, as I'm already piling on pounds from the lack of exercise as it is. I'm just not sure four bottles is enough though. And one of those is a really cheap nasty one someone gave me for Xmas.  Desperate times folks!
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: paddykafka on 26 March, 2020, 08:25:16 AM
If you're adhering strictly to Handwashing Etiquette, this is most likely your current Physical state:

https://www.facebook.com/9gag/posts/10160300224386840

and this, your current Mental state:

https://www.facebook.com/LivingDublinAltogether/videos/314512866193677/

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Bolt-01 on 26 March, 2020, 09:47:14 AM
Tords - glad to hear your news and very glad to hear of the 'paying it forward' as well.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Third Estate Ned on 26 March, 2020, 09:59:24 AM
I never post on here any more, I merely lurk, but wanted to pop in to say that handwashing video gave me a much, much, much needed laugh, so thanks. Maybe I laughed harder than was strictly necessary but a laugh nevertheless.

I've been under lockdown in Italy for nearly a month now, 5 of us in a small flat - got to keep the little ones distracted or it all unravels. There was a lot of contradictory official information at first regarding going outside. We were allowed out for short, solitary walks in the vicinty of our homes for exercise but this permission was abused and misinterpreted. When the first cases emerged in the village we were ordered to stay indoors unless for necessities, with heavy fines for ignoring this. When I do my weekly shop I have to carry with me a declaration saying that's what I'm doing.

I'm working online and actually grateful for the distraction. My wife is the core of morale keeping us all together. I marvel at her infinite imagination and resourcefulness. The police patrol every day with the loudspeaker ordering us to stay at home so we have to pretend to our 3-year-old it's publicity for the circus (that's how they usually publicise it). Like others here, I've reduced news intake because it was sending me into deep and constant anxiety. My wife gave me the greatest advice, which was the best thing you can do right now is make the situation as good as you can for the kids and that isn't possible in the state you're in. At first it seemed irresponsible to bury my head in the sand re the situation but she's right about keeping the kids happy. Weird how you get into a routine as if all that is going on was the norm.

Luckily, the bog roll issue won't hit us so hard as every home has a bidet.

I hope everyone here is able to find their way out of the mental fog that this isolation brings.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Mardroid on 26 March, 2020, 05:57:39 PM
Just found out our work laptops are ready for pick-up tomorrow so we can work from home! We can take a monitor and a mouse too.

Security is to be informed in case we appear to be looting.  :lol:
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: von Boom on 26 March, 2020, 06:41:58 PM
Quote from: Mardroid on 26 March, 2020, 05:57:39 PM
Just found out our work laptops are ready for pick-up tomorrow so we can work from home! We can take a monitor and a mouse too.

Security is to be informed in case we appear to be looting.  :lol:
Surely there can be no confusion.  :)
(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fi.ytimg.com%2Fvi%2FJUlzOb1v4tw%2Fhqdefault.jpg&f=1&nofb=1)
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: sheridan on 26 March, 2020, 06:43:21 PM
Quote from: Mardroid on 26 March, 2020, 05:57:39 PM
Just found out our work laptops are ready for pick-up tomorrow so we can work from home! We can take a monitor and a mouse too.

Security is to be informed in case we appear to be looting.  :lol:
Lucky you - we had to provide our own mouses / mice!
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: sheridan on 26 March, 2020, 06:44:17 PM
Quote from: sheridan on 26 March, 2020, 06:43:21 PM
Quote from: Mardroid on 26 March, 2020, 05:57:39 PM
Just found out our work laptops are ready for pick-up tomorrow so we can work from home! We can take a monitor and a mouse too.

Security is to be informed in case we appear to be looting.  :lol:
Lucky you - we had to provide our own mouses / mice!

(and forget about a monitor - stuck on titchy screen).
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Funt Solo on 26 March, 2020, 07:14:40 PM
(https://wpcdn.us-east-1.vip.tn-cloud.net/www.pittsburghmagazine.com/content/uploads/2020/03/IMG_2014-1.jpg)
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 26 March, 2020, 07:33:35 PM
Anyone working from home, please take care to:

- Not overdo hours. Make a schedule that's close to your standard one
- Take regular breaks
- Where possible, get a decent chair — sit at a dining chair and your back and bum will hate you
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Eamonn Clarke on 26 March, 2020, 08:21:53 PM
I've started this post several times with a few different reports from the NHS but can't really find the words.

Just this: whatever social distancing and personal hygiene regime you're currently practicing please double it. Really. Step it up again.

That's all. I'll see you on the other side.
Eamonn
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: JOE SOAP on 26 March, 2020, 10:49:39 PM
Quote from: Eamonn Clarke on 26 March, 2020, 08:21:53 PM
I've started this post several times with a few different reports from the NHS but can't really find the words.

Just this: whatever social distancing and personal hygiene regime you're currently practicing please double it. Really. Step it up again.

That's all. I'll see you on the other side.
Eamonn

Thanks, Eamonn.

It can't be stated enough: We only get one chance.

Stay safe.



Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Recrewt on 27 March, 2020, 12:36:09 AM
Quote from: Third Estate Ned on 26 March, 2020, 09:59:24 AM
I've been under lockdown in Italy for nearly a month now, 5 of us in a small flat - got to keep the little ones distracted or it all unravels. There was a lot of contradictory official information at first regarding going outside. We were allowed out for short, solitary walks in the vicinty of our homes for exercise but this permission was abused and misinterpreted. When the first cases emerged in the village we were ordered to stay indoors unless for necessities, with heavy fines for ignoring this. When I do my weekly shop I have to carry with me a declaration saying that's what I'm doing.

I'm working online and actually grateful for the distraction. My wife is the core of morale keeping us all together. I marvel at her infinite imagination and resourcefulness. The police patrol every day with the loudspeaker ordering us to stay at home so we have to pretend to our 3-year-old it's publicity for the circus (that's how they usually publicise it). Like others here, I've reduced news intake because it was sending me into deep and constant anxiety. My wife gave me the greatest advice, which was the best thing you can do right now is make the situation as good as you can for the kids and that isn't possible in the state you're in. At first it seemed irresponsible to bury my head in the sand re the situation but she's right about keeping the kids happy. Weird how you get into a routine as if all that is going on was the norm.

Wow, I don't envy your situation Ned but that's the way that things are going in the UK.

It's so easy for the enormity of this situation to just overwhelm us.  But I disagree - there is nothing 'burying your head in the sand' about looking after yourself and your family.  That's what many of us have to focus on now.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Steve Green on 27 March, 2020, 09:17:44 AM
Quote from: Eamonn Clarke on 26 March, 2020, 08:21:53 PM
I've started this post several times with a few different reports from the NHS but can't really find the words.

Just this: whatever social distancing and personal hygiene regime you're currently practicing please double it. Really. Step it up again.

That's all. I'll see you on the other side.
Eamonn

Definitely.

Take care Eamonn, looking forward to buying you many pints once this is over.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Rately on 27 March, 2020, 09:30:20 AM
Quote from: Eamonn Clarke on 26 March, 2020, 08:21:53 PM
I've started this post several times with a few different reports from the NHS but can't really find the words.

Just this: whatever social distancing and personal hygiene regime you're currently practicing please double it. Really. Step it up again.

That's all. I'll see you on the other side.
Eamonn

Take care, Eamonn.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 27 March, 2020, 11:18:50 AM
Quote from: Eamonn Clarke on 26 March, 2020, 08:21:53 PM
Just this: whatever social distancing and personal hygiene regime you're currently practicing please double it. Really. Step it up again.

I've offered to put up a tent in the back garden for my wife to live in, but she seemed oddly resistant to the idea.

No pleasing some people!
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: paddykafka on 27 March, 2020, 12:25:50 PM
Nice one, Jim. :lol:

For those trying to get the right message through to young people, I would recommend the link below.

https://www.facebook.com/9gag/photos/a.109041001839/10160335186801840/?type=3&theater

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Rately on 27 March, 2020, 01:35:44 PM
Trying to be as positive, non grouchy during this testing time.

Wish I could draw my attention from the news cycle. The footage from Spain and Italy could not fail to move you.

Not a religious man by any measurement, but I'm praying to whatever looks over us that things get better for us all as quickly as possible, and that those people on the frontlines of this terrible tragedy unfolding before us, are going to be supported and shown the proper love and  appreciation when we get to the other side of this. God help them.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Tjm86 on 27 March, 2020, 02:14:06 PM
Well, if anyone is still feeling a bit glum in these troubling times, I would heartily recommend seeking out footage of Dominic Cummings' departure from Downing Street today as Johnson tests positive for Covid-19.  Hopefully the defining image of his illustrious career.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 27 March, 2020, 02:23:42 PM
Ned and particularly Eamonn, my thoughts are with ye.

This is a huge test of how our collective imaginations work: as with climate change I like to think that I have a realist's view of the immediate future, that I've informed myself and run the numbers as best I can, but it's still too much for me to really grasp. When our unflappable CMO Tony Holohan points out where we are on that terrifying graph (the beginning of the beginning), I cock a snook at the still-in-denialists and "why weren't we prepared" crowd that explode daily across Irish social media, but I'm actually not one whit better.  One moment I'm laughing with the kids over some crude bit of wordplay while trying to decide whether to watch a DS9 Season 3 episode or Antman & the Wasp, the next I shake with the realisation that we're all standing on a rapidly-draining beach waiting for the tsunami to rush in, and then it's back to Quark's latest attempt to offload those self-sealing stembolts.

Wouldn't be surprised if Boris had faked a positive result or deliberately infected himself just to find a way out of being the incompetent in the driving seat.  I might do the same.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IAMTHESYSTEM on 27 March, 2020, 02:56:15 PM
There are Security guards or Shop workers who are acting as such at all the smaller grocery stores now. You have to queue to get in standing two meters apart. Only two people at once are allowed into one of the local food shops. It is almost surreal, and it reminded me of WW2 films with people queuing outside the Butchers to receive their rations. What a strange future has leapt upon us all, upending the consumerist society onto its head. The peculiar habit of avoiding people, stepping out onto the road, so as not to share the pavement with whoever you're passing. The empty highways, the sound of birds rather than car wheels; all just getting familiar, yet unsettling somehow.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Hawkmumbler on 27 March, 2020, 04:00:56 PM
Went to help my 75 year old grandfather (in the early stages of Parkinsons) do a swift weekly shop at Sainsburys this morning, in the pensioner slot. My grandfather is increasingly struggling to cope with heavier tasks, and the staff at our local branch have been very inviting of family and care giver support during the one hour shopping segment. Still had to queue which is an odd feeling but it only took 5 mins, and major props to the tiny lass working the main entrance trafficking folks in and out, and was not at all standing for any abuse. Two lads wanted to get in "just for fags love swear on me babes life" and promptly kicked off seeing me next in line. Don't think i've ever seen a pair of burly security guards so done with someones shit deliver such a swift kicking off the premises, and it was, quiet literally, a kicking. You love to see it.

I like to think people are by and large quiet amicable but I do wonder sometimes.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Professor Bear on 27 March, 2020, 05:43:09 PM
Quote from: TordelBack on 27 March, 2020, 02:23:42 PMWouldn't be surprised if Boris had faked a positive result or deliberately infected himself just to find a way out of being the incompetent in the driving seat.  I might do the same.

It was said in jest but now we really do have to step back and appreciate the achievement of electing the three worst Prime Ministers in British history in a row: each one somehow topping the one before in terms of incompetence, and the first guy in the chain fucked a pig.
This is a sign from God, and if we elect another Tory PM, the Earth is legit going to get hit by an asteroid.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: moly on 27 March, 2020, 07:04:13 PM
Wondered how long it would take someone to have to bring politics into this
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: auxlen on 27 March, 2020, 07:05:35 PM
GENIUS MOVE TO 'BE INFECTED'.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Hawkmumbler on 27 March, 2020, 07:19:51 PM
With the news the Excel Center, NEC and Mcr Central being converted into makeshift hospitals and morgues, with an alarming emphasis on the latter, and refrigerated mobile morgues being set up State side, I keep being reminded of that painful, gut wrenching page from the tail end of Day of Chaos where the Judges isolate tens of thousands of citizens in a sports arena and just wait for them to die.

We're living in the worst possible timeline here lads.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Tjm86 on 27 March, 2020, 07:28:02 PM
I have to admit to being in admiration of Trump and his minion's ability to distort reality. 
So now it turns out he is threatening broadcasters in the states over an ad that simply repeats his own words. (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/mar/27/donald-trump-coronavirus-response-us-advertisement)

Why?  Because they claim that he said a few things between the word "Coronavirus" and the phrase "this is their new hoax."  I'm trying to wrap my head around how they getting round the fact that they haven't included every single word he said in all those speeches in the ad.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Funt Solo on 27 March, 2020, 08:27:38 PM
Quote from: moly on 27 March, 2020, 07:04:13 PM
Wondered how long it would take someone to have to bring politics into this

It's right there in Page 1, Post 1 (cos politics is life, man):

QuoteWho'd have thought hardline communist dictatorships were ahead of the game after all?
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Professor Bear on 27 March, 2020, 08:42:01 PM
Quote from: moly on 27 March, 2020, 07:04:13 PM
Wondered how long it would take someone to have to bring politics into this

I was going to reply to this by quoting all the posts in this thread talking about the government's culpability by either delaying their response or a decade of underfunding the NHS, but that would take a while as there is simply no separating this crisis from how we've been failed by neoliberal psychopaths in order to preserve the precious economy that they worship like a god to the point they now want to commit mass human sacrifice to it.
There's only one side of the political spectrum calling for this virus to be allowed to run rampant in the populace and kill a conservative estimate of about half a million people as well as incapacitating 60% of the surviving population for a minimum of 6 weeks so they can't even go back to their jobs anyway - a solution that literally will not work and will kill hundreds of thousands of people and they want to do it anyway because the last five years of politics have taught them that never having to play defence is the same thing as always being right.

Anyway, TLDR: good luck keeping this one apolitical.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 28 March, 2020, 08:39:53 AM
On the subject of keeping politics out of this...

Ok, so our government said some bullshit about not getting the email about joint procurement of PPE and other medical equipment with the EU.

We know that's just utter bollocks, but now we have proof. Check out this EC briefing, where EU members say U.K. representatives were present in all discussions.

So not only did they 'get the email', but the government made a decision not to  engage, most likely for ideological reasons (an aide has commented "we're not a member of the EU.")

Yet another life threatening decision to remember when this crisis has passed.

https://audiovisual.ec.europa.eu/embed/index.html?ref=I-187505&lg=en
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: sheridan on 28 March, 2020, 08:52:21 AM
I read the first post of this thread as being "let's not fill the political thread up with COVID-19 posts, so spin it off" - i.e. the full name of this thread might as well be "The Political Thread 2: Day of Chaos 2: a COVID-19 Thread".
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 28 March, 2020, 08:55:41 AM
I see your point. Maybe a Mod could split the thread, so we can keep a record of the disastrous decisions the U.K. government is making during this crisis elsewhere?
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Tjm86 on 28 March, 2020, 08:59:32 AM
Quote from: sheridan on 28 March, 2020, 08:52:21 AM
i.e. the full name of this thread might as well be "The Political Thread 2: Day of Chaos 2: a COVID-19 Thread".

Surely it's:

2000ad_online_forum/general_chat/off_topic/political_thread_2/day_of_chaos_2/covid-19_thread

:-*
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 28 March, 2020, 11:28:17 AM
This is 30 mins walk from my front door. A dose of reality I could really do without.

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-union/news-comment/coronavirus-nhs-field-hospital-principality-stadium-beds-welsh-rugby-a9431236.html
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Rately on 28 March, 2020, 11:54:50 AM
When NHS procurement are sourcing disposable scrubs from a fetish supplier, you have to ask yourself what in the hell this Government is doing, how they could have made such a hash of it when they saw what was coming. It is mind boggling.

https://mobile.twitter.com/MedFet_UK/status/1243590308878848002
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Richard on 28 March, 2020, 01:11:56 PM
You simply can't separate this issue from politics, it's inherently political I'm afraid. The fact that it also involves death and tragedy on a monumental scale doesn't change that, because political decisions often cause deaths. Now of course it would be wrong for anyone to try to obtain political advantage from it, but commenting on what our government is doing about it and how we got here -- which is partly the result of political decisions -- is certainly not the same thing.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 28 March, 2020, 01:43:31 PM
I don't think we'll be splitting the thread. This thread will focus on C19, and that can include some political commentary. This leaves the other thread for everything outside of this subject. Our main concern here from an admin standpoint was outlined by Molch-R earlier in the thread.

If the thread does become too derailed by politics, we can always draw a line.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Cyberleader2000 on 28 March, 2020, 03:13:33 PM
Here to lighten the mood
https://youtu.be/e0-2XxgHIXk (https://youtu.be/e0-2XxgHIXk)
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Pete Wells on 28 March, 2020, 05:05:28 PM
Woah, just read this thread from the start and it was fascinating to see it go through the gamete of emotions and approaches from lighthearted and/or sceptical, to realisation, to alarm, frustration, fear and anger, acceptance and everything in between. A journey I think we have all been on.

It's very hard not to be political with this, in my eyes Johnson has been shambolic with fundamental mistakes made early on, despite the very real evidence from elsewhere. I can't even bring myself to write about Dominic Cummings, I swear that man is a psychopath. I've seen a few social media posts from people who I thought were intelligent praising Johnson's performance and I just can't believe it!

My biggest irk as been the lack of clarity for schools. Those who know me will know I am a very passionate special needs teacher. The government's handling of schools (particularly special schools) has been nothing short of atrocious. Saying all schools will be open for children with EHCP plans is beyond insane. For those who don't know, the H in EHCP stands for 'Health', so I've personally seen confused parents (many of whom have learning difficulties themselves) sending children who are very poorly, highly at risk with Health needs, to school because the government is telling them too. It took a LONG time for Johnson and Williamson to be more explicit that, where possible, children should stay at home. Several parents in my setting are STILL ignoring this advice however.

At the end of this crisis, I wonder just how much blood jolly, cuddly, bumbling Bojo with have on his fat, incompetent hands?
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Robin Low on 28 March, 2020, 06:16:04 PM
Quote from: Pete Wells on 28 March, 2020, 05:05:28 PM

the gamete of emotions

This made me smile.

Regards,
Robin
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Steve Green on 28 March, 2020, 06:30:59 PM
Pete's autocorrect strikes again.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: auxlen on 28 March, 2020, 06:32:33 PM
It's all politics/conspiracy theories until someone you know dies...and in my case, it's a colleague 50 (no underlying health conditions), and an uncle 45 (high blood pressure).
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: von Boom on 28 March, 2020, 06:36:25 PM
Very sorry to hear that auxlen. Condolences.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Rately on 28 March, 2020, 06:48:58 PM
Quote from: auxlen on 28 March, 2020, 06:32:33 PM
It's all politics/conspiracy theories until someone you know dies...and in my case, it's a colleague 50 (no underlying health conditions), and an uncle 45 (high blood pressure).

Condolences, Auxlen.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Steve Green on 28 March, 2020, 06:54:36 PM
My condolences, Auxlen.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: paddykafka on 28 March, 2020, 07:04:37 PM
Very sorry to hear of your losses, Auxlen. My sincere condolences to you.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 28 March, 2020, 11:14:50 PM
Quote from: auxlen on 28 March, 2020, 06:32:33 PM
It's all politics/conspiracy theories until someone you know dies...and in my case, it's a colleague 50 (no underlying health conditions), and an uncle 45 (high blood pressure).

I'm so sorry to hear that.

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: sheridan on 28 March, 2020, 11:50:20 PM
Quote from: shaolin_monkey on 28 March, 2020, 11:28:17 AM
This is 30 mins walk from my front door. A dose of reality I could really do without.

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-union/news-comment/coronavirus-nhs-field-hospital-principality-stadium-beds-welsh-rugby-a9431236.html (https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-union/news-comment/coronavirus-nhs-field-hospital-principality-stadium-beds-welsh-rugby-a9431236.html)

I know the feeling.  When I left the office the other day, for the last time before starting home working, the following had been put up and the generators were about to cool it down for use as a temporary mortuary to double the capacity of Westminster Coroner's Court.
(https://i.imgur.com/UrV7AEL.jpg)
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: sheridan on 28 March, 2020, 11:50:54 PM
Quote from: auxlen on 28 March, 2020, 06:32:33 PM
It's all politics/conspiracy theories until someone you know dies...and in my case, it's a colleague 50 (no underlying health conditions), and an uncle 45 (high blood pressure).

My condolences.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 29 March, 2020, 12:02:14 PM
I'm starting to see many CORVID19 death announcements on my Twitter feed too. They're not all elderly folk either. The youngest I have seen so far was 35 year old. They are a mixture of folk from the U.K. and US.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IAMTHESYSTEM on 29 March, 2020, 12:16:27 PM
How's you're queue time at the shops? Thirty-five minutes this morning to get into the big local Supermarket. Both the floors inside the building and outside have marked lines six-feet in width. When you're inside, you can move about okay, but it is weird for me buying a whole weeks worth of food at one go. The aisles seem well-stocked, and over the tannoy, the woman announced they had a 'Store Marshall' doing the rounds,  which felt very Judge Dredd and Mega-City One. As Zarjazzer worryingly pointed out to me when I'd hefted the five bags of shopping home; 'January, Fire, February, Flood. March we have pestilence.' so as you can imagine we're somewhat concerned about what April has in store!     
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 29 March, 2020, 12:37:27 PM
I've not been - my partner has been to a Tesco once for fresh fruit and veg (our Brexit stockpile has all else covered), and said she wants to avoid going again if she can possibly help it.

What you describe above was very similar to her experience, but also she saw big signs on the doors saying 'Anyone abusing our staff will not be served and will be removed from the store immediately'. So the mood there was tense, as clearly shit had already gone down in a noteable way.


She's actually a 'key worker' in all of this. As an Ops for a mental health charity in Wales she's been working incredibly hard procuring beds for the NHS. These have come from wards run by the charity normally taken by mental health patients, from ligature-free buildings and suchlike. She's been on Zoom calls with NHS managers day and night this last week or more. It's been tough for her.

She's also prepping for call-up to support the NHS at the frontline. I'm so incredibly proud of her, but I'm so scared for her also.

I'm 'high risk' due to my asthma, so when she goes I won't see her until it's over.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 29 March, 2020, 12:48:06 PM
Sorry for the loss of your uncle and your colleague, Auxlen.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: paddykafka on 29 March, 2020, 01:38:26 PM
Quote from: shaolin_monkey on 29 March, 2020, 12:37:27 PM
I've not been - my partner has been to a Tesco once for fresh fruit and veg (our Brexit stockpile has all else covered), and said she wants to avoid going again if she can possibly help it.

What you describe above was very similar to her experience, but also she saw big signs on the doors saying 'Anyone abusing our staff will not be served and will be removed from the store immediately'. So the mood there was tense, as clearly shit had already gone down in a noteable way.


She's actually a 'key worker' in all of this. As an Ops for a mental health charity in Wales she's been working incredibly hard procuring beds for the NHS. These have come from wards run by the charity normally taken by mental health patients, from ligature-free buildings and suchlike. She's been on Zoom calls with NHS managers day and night this last week or more. It's been tough for her.

She's also prepping for call-up to support the NHS at the frontline. I'm so incredibly proud of her, but I'm so scared for her also.

I'm 'high risk' due to my asthma, so when she goes I won't see her until it's over.

All the best to you and your partner, Shaolin. Herself and all those working at the frontline of this crisis are absolute heroes in my book. Take good care of yerselves!
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IAMTHESYSTEM on 29 March, 2020, 01:46:59 PM
Quote from: paddykafka on 29 March, 2020, 01:38:26 PM
Quote from: shaolin_monkey on 29 March, 2020, 12:37:27 PM
I've not been - my partner has been to a Tesco once for fresh fruit and veg (our Brexit stockpile has all else covered), and said she wants to avoid going again if she can possibly help it.

What you describe above was very similar to her experience, but also she saw big signs on the doors saying 'Anyone abusing our staff will not be served and will be removed from the store immediately'. So the mood there was tense, as clearly shit had already gone down in a noteable way.


She's actually a 'key worker' in all of this. As an Ops for a mental health charity in Wales she's been working incredibly hard procuring beds for the NHS. These have come from wards run by the charity normally taken by mental health patients, from ligature-free buildings and suchlike. She's been on Zoom calls with NHS managers day and night this last week or more. It's been tough for her.

She's also prepping for call-up to support the NHS at the frontline. I'm so incredibly proud of her, but I'm so scared for her also.

I'm 'high risk' due to my asthma, so when she goes I won't see her until it's over.

All the best to you and your partner, Shaolin. Herself and all those working at the frontline of this crisis are absolute heroes in my book. Take good care of yerselves!

You said it right paddykafka. Keep safe Shaolin_ and a big thanks to all frontline Health and Emergency Service workers.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Steve Green on 29 March, 2020, 04:00:29 PM
Only the small(ish) local co-op, which has been fine, although empties out of the fresh stuff pretty quickly.

Did sainsburys a couple of weeks back, when people were starting to panic buy, but didn't see any trouble - was just busy.

Whenever I've looked online it's been no chance of delivery...

All the best to you and the family Monkey.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 30 March, 2020, 11:14:46 AM
Very best of good fortune to you guys, Shaolin Monkey.

Here's a very calm, informative (if slightly smug) interview (https://youtu.be/gAk7aX5hksU) from South Korea, which sets out facts from expert experience. Long, but you'll feel better informed, if possibly a bit angrier, by the end.

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: paddykafka on 30 March, 2020, 12:29:56 PM
I think it is fair to say, that the following cautionary tale firmly belongs in the "Don't Try This At Home" category. But at least his heart was in the right place. (Even if the magnets were not).

https://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/health-family/man-gets-magnets-stuck-up-nose-while-trying-to-invent-device-that-stops-people-touching-their-faces-1.4215674
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Bolt-01 on 30 March, 2020, 02:04:22 PM
as my youngest pointed out whilst looking out of the window over the weekend - "It's like Thanos won in the real world..."
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 31 March, 2020, 10:29:16 PM
Twitter feed continuing to fill with death announcements. Latest is also the youngest - Ismail, wee 13 year old lad, London, no underlying conditions.

Social media might have to be turned off for a while.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Funt Solo on 31 March, 2020, 10:45:36 PM
Terrible news, Shaolin.

I've had to limit my exposure to the news cycle: it's unremitting.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 01 April, 2020, 10:03:17 AM
Couldn't bring myself to play any April Fools on the kids this morning, everything is so upside-down already that it didn't seem right. Instead reflected on past glories, and all the places we were when they were perpetrated that weren't inside these four walls.

Then looked at online media, and it turns out many of the usual suspects have had exactly the same idea.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 01 April, 2020, 11:05:37 AM
Someone noted on Twitter to me that they very nearly did a "school's back" April Fool on their kid, but decided not to. I can only imagine doing that on mini-IP. She'd be in bits on finding out it wasn't the case. She loves school and misses her friends. I can only hope this period doesn't mess her up. (We're fortunate in that some of her friends' parents have similar concerns, and so have started doing virtual playdates via Skype. So that's at least something. I'm very grateful for being in that position regarding technology.)
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 01 April, 2020, 11:18:38 AM
Yep, Skype playdates for my 10yr old have been a lifesaver, although it causes one to update the WFH dresscode to include 'trousers compulsory' as she wanders about the bunker giving virtual tours of the squalor.

The 13yr old gets his socialisation in through online murder games with his friends, as usual, but has also reverted to deeply complex multiplayer Minecrafting of the redstone-heavy varieťy, so that's good. Never have I seen a computer game with such longevity: he's played it on and off for at least 5 years now.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: paddykafka on 01 April, 2020, 01:41:59 PM
So, for the third night in the last four days, I have been woken from my sleep by the drunken antics of the violent, psychotic, alcoholic girlfriend of the guy in the flat above me (and of whom I previously wrote about in another thread).

While most of the rest of society have rightly been adhering to the principals of Lockdown, he has had her and some of her equally scummy, feral, teenage offspring over to visit him, and join in their drunken lets-party-like-it's-the-end-of-the-world sessions.

I was awoken at 3AM on Sunday morning by the main muppet herself, physically beating the smack-head girlfriend of one of the other guys in the flat above, down the stairs and out the door of the house over some row or other.

The following night, at 12.30 AM, I was again disturbed by the same cretin. This time around, it was her own teenage daughter she was man-handling out the door. And I know this because I could hear her drunken, shit-head offspring screaming "I'm sorry, Ma! I'm sorry, Ma!" as she was being given the old heave-ho out the door.

And then at 2AM this morning, I was once again woken up by the same lunatic, shouting and roaring her head off in the flat upstairs for almost an hour-and-a-half.

There are simply no words to describe the utter contempt that I feel for these muppets. These sorry excuses for humanity would not even know how to spell the words "Social Distancing" and "Self Isolating", much less understand the concepts. The only thing that they care about is getting pissed out of their minds and, to use their own common-as-muck, gutter-trash parlance, "Havin' da buzz" and "Havin' da craic".

I am in no doubt that the last time that they saw a bar of soap was on a TV commercial. And, given their obvious carelessness, it is a fair bet to say that they are carrying the Covid19 virus, if not actively transmitting it.

By coming around to this house and leaving their vile trails on doors and walls, they are putting the lives of myself and everyone else here at serious risk of infection and death.

At this point in time, I honestly could not care less if the lot of them wind up being carted out in body-bags. Because for their stupidity, their ignorance, and above all, their utterly selfish disregard for anything or anyone but themselves, it is no more than what they deserve.

I hate them all.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 01 April, 2020, 02:15:49 PM
Jovus, Paddy that's bloody awful. And I've been giving out about neighbours mowing their lawns for hours on end! 

I know no-one ever wants to be a grass, but the guards are coming the heavy on house parties this past week (I know that's not what this is), maybe a wee chat might sort the immediate issue, if not actually helping in the long term. There haven't been any rowdy sessions round our way since weekend before last, and there's almost always one loud one every week.

This horror story does remind me of one of the very few upsides of this nightmare: the house-alarm chorus that has carried on almost unbroken for the 15 years I've lived here has finally ceased.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: paddykafka on 01 April, 2020, 05:13:02 PM
Hi Tordels, you're right on the being a "grass" in theory, but aside from it going against the grain, as it were, with the kind of people - and I am using that term in the loosest possible sense - that I am talking about, I would be likely to have my windows put in at the very least, if not an actual petrol bomb thrown through them.

Trying to reason with them would be equally pointless, as that assumes some level of intellectual capacity on their part to understand what I would be talking about, and which is utterly lacking in their case.

So I have simply gone down the revenge route instead.

To that end, I am currently belting out The Fall's Last Night at the Palais at a sufficiently high volume through an open window, that should more than adequately serve to stir and disturb them from their hangover slumber. I will be following that with tunes from another Angry Young Man, to wit, Peter Hamill with the K Group, and their album The Margin, 'Live.

The icing on the cake will be any one of a number of Krzystof Penderecki CD's that, to their great misfortune, I am lucky to have and are perfect for moments such as this. I'm thinking of starting with Utrenja and after that, well, who knows.

And the beauty of it all is that, thanks to the couple of bottles of whiskey that I have just purchased and have started upon, regardless of what they get up to later I will be completely oblivious to it all.

Do I care?

Do I heck as like!
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Professor Bear on 01 April, 2020, 06:04:28 PM
Ironically, they'll probably call the cops on you.

Normal grassing rules don't apply during a pandemic, but if you're still worried, just tell the cops you don't wish to leave your name.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: sheridan on 01 April, 2020, 06:56:27 PM
Quote from: paddykafka on 01 April, 2020, 05:13:02 PM
The icing on the cake will be any one of a number of Krzystof Penderecki CD's that, to their great misfortune, I am lucky to have and are perfect for moments such as this. I'm thinking of starting with Utrenja and after that, well, who knows.
Never heard of him, but (and I hope this isn't news to you) I see he died a few days ago (https://www.theguardian.com/music/2020/mar/29/krzysztof-penderecki-obituary).
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: paddykafka on 01 April, 2020, 07:05:05 PM
Quote from: Professor Bear on 01 April, 2020, 06:04:28 PM
Ironically, they'll probably call the cops on you.

Take it from me, Professor, the very last people that these particular idiots will be calling are the police.

(Considering that every one of them has, at some stage or another, done time in various prisons, their attitude towards representatives of the Law are, to say the least, somewhat hostile).

Also, the bloke in question, is very much aware of the utter contempt that I have with regard to his partner. I was the one who stood by him and took his side on the last occasion that she physically assaulted him. But, as is sadly so common in cases of domestic abuse, he later made excuses for her behaviour and chose to take her back into his life. I made it absolutely and abundantly clear to him that I never wished to be in her company again or have anything to do with her whatsoever. And I have, and will continue to keep to that vow.

As I learned from my own bitter experiences of a couple of former partners- albeit in my case, they were of verbal and emotional abuse and controlling behaviour - there are certain people like her that are utterly incapable of change for the better.

At the end of the day, he is so terrified of being alone and accepting the fact that, between his advanced age, economic circumstances and his own personal issues, this is likely to be his lot-in-life going forward, he will forgive her many horrible personal flaws. And the worst of it all is that she herself was apparently the victim of childhood abuse. Which in my view, makes what she has done even more unforgiveable.

And I speak as someone with experience in that area myself. In my case, that abuse manifested itself in the physical fashion. If you have been through that kind of horror or anything like it - as I have - then it is surely incumbent on you to do all that you can, to avoid perpetuating that kind of repulsive behaviour upon anyone else. At least that is the way that I choose to so from a moral point of view.

In any event, he has made his bed and can lie in it. Any sympathy I might have had for him has long since evaporated.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Richard on 01 April, 2020, 07:09:21 PM
I'm sorry to hear about all this, Paddykafka, and I wish I had a helpful solution to suggest.

On a completely and totally unrelated subject, does anyone know what a flock of crows is properly called?
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: paddykafka on 01 April, 2020, 07:11:42 PM
Quote from: sheridan on 01 April, 2020, 06:56:27 PM
Quote from: paddykafka on 01 April, 2020, 05:13:02 PM
The icing on the cake will be any one of a number of Krzystof Penderecki CD's that, to their great misfortune, I am lucky to have and are perfect for moments such as this. I'm thinking of starting with Utrenja and after that, well, who knows.
Never heard of him, but (and I hope this isn't news to you) I see he died a few days ago (https://www.theguardian.com/music/2020/mar/29/krzysztof-penderecki-obituary).

Ah, no. So sorry to hear of that. I will post something else at a later time in the RIP section. Thanks for letting me know, Sheridan.

PS: Just to clarify, the physical abuse that I mentioned in the previous post happened in childhood. Apologies for any confusion.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Tjm86 on 01 April, 2020, 07:41:57 PM
Quote from: Richard on 01 April, 2020, 07:09:21 PM
... does anyone know what a flock of crows is properly called?

I thought it was a "murder of crows", no?
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 01 April, 2020, 07:56:20 PM
Quote from: Tjm86
link=topic=46306.msg
1025200#msg1025200
date=1585766517

Quote from: Richard
link=topic=46306.msg
1025197#msg1025197
date=1585764561

... does anyone know what a flock of crows is properly
called?
I thought it was a "murder of crows", no?

Not if there's just caws...

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: The Doctor Alt 8 on 01 April, 2020, 08:24:00 PM

My landlord is currently trapped in India ....won't be able to return to the UK until at least 18th of April due to lock-down. Hope nothing serious happens to the property because there will be no one to fix it.


On a less serious note... THIS happened to me...

An odd thing happened to me Saturday.I went to do the large weekly shop and I was walking to take my rightful place at the end of the quee which was reaching past the Train station.


A gentleman sees me walk past pushing a blue trolley given to me by my Belgium friend and he INSISTED that I take a place in front of him in the quee (At an appropriate distance of course)


I thanked him prefusly. friend


A few moment later another gentleman three places in front of me offered HIS place in front of the quee...


I thanked That man.


A couple of minutes later a security officer comes passed on a patrol (To ensue all those in the quee are keeping their distance from each other) He insists on separating me out and letting me into the store in front of everyone else in the quee.


As I was talking to mother to tell her what was & wasn't available and to ask if she wanted substitutes the  first man who offered his place came up to me and said that he hoped that I hadn't been waiting long as I was clearly a priority (???)


I did and said nothing to warrent this favorable treatment and I think I need plastic surgery because they clearly thought that I was in my dotage....


I can only thing that because I have to bend to hold onto the trolley as the handles are about 2 inches too short for comfort, people must of mistaken my bend for a aged stoop...




Mother thought that this was hilarious and Adrian said that I should play up to this to get this treatment again...


Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Richard on 01 April, 2020, 08:40:20 PM
Quote from: Tjm86 on 01 April, 2020, 07:41:57 PM
Quote from: Richard on 01 April, 2020, 07:09:21 PM
... does anyone know what a flock of crows is properly called?

I thought it was a "murder of crows", no?

So it is. A murder. Quite right.

On a completely and totally unrelated subject, I hope Paddykafka's troubles come to an end soon.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: von Boom on 02 April, 2020, 12:24:17 AM
Quote from: The Legendary Shark on 01 April, 2020, 07:56:20 PM
Quote from: Tjm86
link=topic=46306.msg
1025200#msg1025200
date=1585766517

Quote from: Richard
link=topic=46306.msg
1025197#msg1025197
date=1585764561

... does anyone know what a flock of crows is properly
called?
I thought it was a "murder of crows", no?

Not if there's just caws...
You monster. ;)
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: sheridan on 02 April, 2020, 09:12:01 AM
Quote from: von Boom on 02 April, 2020, 12:24:17 AM
Quote from: The Legendary Shark on 01 April, 2020, 07:56:20 PM
Quote from: Tjm86
link=topic=46306.msg
1025200#msg1025200
date=1585766517

Quote from: Richard
link=topic=46306.msg
1025197#msg1025197
date=1585764561

... does anyone know what a flock of crows is properly
called?
I thought it was a "murder of crows", no?

Not if there's just caws...
You monster. ;)

If there's only two crows then it's attempted murder.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: strontium71 on 02 April, 2020, 10:55:54 AM
Of course if they're just imitating a bloke guffawing , it's man's laughter..
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Tjm86 on 02 April, 2020, 11:53:14 AM
... and once again a perfectly serious thread has morphed into the "Squaxx telling jokes" thread.  Can people never stay on topic?

[I know, that's another thread again ....]
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 02 April, 2020, 12:10:10 PM
Quote from: strontium71 on 02 April, 2020, 10:55:54 AM
Of course if they're just imitating a bloke guffawing , it's man's laughter..

If you knew how long I spent trying to come up with a manslaughter-related pun for a corvid- 19 minutes wasted.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 02 April, 2020, 12:17:47 PM

Good job you didn't - it might have gone viral.

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: sheridan on 02 April, 2020, 12:59:58 PM
Quote from: Tjm86 on 02 April, 2020, 11:53:14 AM
... and once again a perfectly serious thread has morphed into the "Squaxx telling jokes" thread.  Can people never stay on topic?

[I know, that's another thread again ....]

Better than the alternative, speaking of which...

DUP gotta DUP (https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/health/coronavirus/coronavirus-dup-man-blames-outbreak-on-abortion-reform-and-same-sex-marriage-introduction-in-northern-ireland-39096782.html).
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Professor Bear on 02 April, 2020, 01:03:33 PM
Quote from: Professor Bear on 27 March, 2020, 05:43:09 PMThis is a sign from God, and if we elect another Tory PM, the Earth is legit going to get hit by an asteroid.

WELP (https://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/news/atlas-comet-visible-night-sky-earth-solar-system-a9440836.html)
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 02 April, 2020, 01:21:13 PM
"The DUP distanced itself from the comments, telling the BBC Stephen Nolan show Ballymena councillor John Carson was expressing a personal opinion and not that of the party"

Says a lot when even the DUP are all "nope — that's too fucking nuts, even for us".
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 02 April, 2020, 02:53:12 PM
I always like how these nutty lads compare themselves and their self-inflicted tribulations to those of Jesus, which always strikes this atheist as distinctly blasphemous: last I looked Jesus was without sin, the perfect incarnation of God's love and understanding for mankind, and the Son of God to boot, and definitely not some nasty lizard-eyed sinner from Ballymena.  And if only they were preaching the same message.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: JOE SOAP on 02 April, 2020, 02:59:37 PM
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 02 April, 2020, 01:21:13 PM
"The DUP distanced itself from the comments, telling the BBC Stephen Nolan show Ballymena councillor John Carson was expressing a personal opinion and not that of the party"

Says a lot when even the DUP are all "nope — that's too fucking nuts, even for us".

It's not an unexpected utterance from one of their rank.


Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 02 April, 2020, 03:28:24 PM

"Lift a stone and you will find me. Split a piece of wood and I am there."


Creepy crawlies, too.

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: ZenArcade on 02 April, 2020, 04:37:29 PM
Quote from: Tjm86
link=topic=46306.msg
1025200#msg1025200
date=1585766517
Quote from: Richard
link=topic=46306.msg
1025197#msg1025197
date=1585764561
... does anyone know what a flock of crows is properly
called?
I thought it was a "murder of crows", no?

Not if there's just caws...

Oh Shark, you card you. Z
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Funt Solo on 02 April, 2020, 05:17:09 PM
Quote from: sheridan on 02 April, 2020, 12:59:58 PM
DUP gotta DUP (https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/health/coronavirus/coronavirus-dup-man-blames-outbreak-on-abortion-reform-and-same-sex-marriage-introduction-in-northern-ireland-39096782.html).

Fascinating how his god supposedly punishes gay rights activism in Northern Ireland by creating a global pandemic. Typical overreaction there from Yahweh.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: sheridan on 02 April, 2020, 05:45:59 PM
Quote from: Funt Solo on 02 April, 2020, 05:17:09 PM
Quote from: sheridan on 02 April, 2020, 12:59:58 PM
DUP gotta DUP (https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/health/coronavirus/coronavirus-dup-man-blames-outbreak-on-abortion-reform-and-same-sex-marriage-introduction-in-northern-ireland-39096782.html).

Fascinating how his god supposedly punishes gay rights activism in Northern Ireland by creating a global pandemic. Typical overreaction there from Yahweh.

To be fair - overeaction is pretty consistent with what's the in the bible (particularly the Torah / Pentateuch)
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Tjm86 on 02 April, 2020, 07:03:01 PM
Quote from: sheridan on 02 April, 2020, 12:59:58 PM
Quote from: Tjm86 on 02 April, 2020, 11:53:14 AM
... and once again a perfectly serious thread has morphed into the "Squaxx telling jokes" thread.  Can people never stay on topic?

[I know, that's another thread again ....]

Better than the alternative, speaking of which...

DUP gotta DUP (https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/health/coronavirus/coronavirus-dup-man-blames-outbreak-on-abortion-reform-and-same-sex-marriage-introduction-in-northern-ireland-39096782.html).

Can we just start a "Batshit Crazy Politico's" thread?  Or would it be easier to start an "Intelligent Politicians and the things they say ... " thread instead ..... Actually, unless it gets pinned I think we'd completely lose track of it.

Ah, ignore me.

Of course now I understand why Foster was so keen on the Cash for Ash scam.  Those headbangers really do seem to like their hellfire and brimstone.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: ZenArcade on 03 April, 2020, 08:24:27 AM
Jesus, you guys giving out about swivel eyed DUP head the balls. I have to live here with them in power.  They are an admixture of utter greed and bat-shit lunacy, yer man (scarcely) speaks for many, many people in NI. Z
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Definitely Not Mister Pops on 03 April, 2020, 04:11:21 PM
Yeah, this is the shower that thought it would be better to take pandemic leadership cues from a newspaper editor who got himself infected and lives across the sea, than take advice from a qualified doctor who lives on the same small island as us.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: paddykafka on 03 April, 2020, 04:44:52 PM
UPDATE ON THE PSYCHO SITUATION

I have just spoken in person with the Landlord, in company with a couple of the other tenants.

As self-appointed Block Spokesperson, I fully apprised him of what had been happening with regard to the rather unpleasant woman - and her vile anti-social behaviour - of whom I wrote about a couple of pages back.

My fellow Block residents concurred with me as to how she had behaving. They had some anecdotes of their own to add, and were as one with me in wishing to see her removed from the building ASAP and that she never be allowed to return here again.

The Landlord was shocked by what we had to tell him. He said "okay" and the last that I saw of him was him heading upstairs, presumably to sort things out. He's a decent enough 'ould skin, so I am quietly confident that he will deal with the issue and that will be the end of it.

This was not a route that I ever wanted to go down, but at the end of the day, the creature has no one but herself to blame.

The celebratory cup of Peppermint tea that I brewed is tasting particularly good right now.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Fungus on 03 April, 2020, 05:22:42 PM
Nice one Paddy. This episode has reminded me of my own torment with one neighbour. There were 'issues' involved and the whole thing was an institutional attempt to house a problem individual. What I'd done to deserve this, who knows.... anyway, the peace after this spell was palpable. Enjoy your own 👏 😀
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Richard on 03 April, 2020, 06:32:45 PM
Result! And you didn't even have to murder anyone. Well done!
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: paddykafka on 03 April, 2020, 06:50:31 PM
Thanks, Fungus and much appreciated.

I feel your pain on the "bad neighbours" front. Just a couple of years back, shortly after I had to give up work on account of my own mental health issues - name chronic anxiety, depression and work related burn-out among a number of issues (and which I have previously documented) I found myself in the classic Neighbours-from-Hell scenario.

Some charity or other thought it would be a good idea to parachute a single, teenage mother into a house full of middle-aged men. The landlord, having a social conscience and taking pity on her situation, agreed to this. Although I was not exactly thrilled at the prospect of there a baby in the room beside me - the house is older than God and was built when insulation was an optional extra - I nevertheless accepted the situation as it was. And as I have previously explained, amongst my many quirks, I have serious issues with regard to Noise Intolerance.

But to my pleasant surprise, neither mother nor new-born bairn caused me any significant problems and I hardly heard a peep out of the little mite. Until, that is, the young mother decided to install her truly horrible, weed-addicted teenage boyfriend into the room with them.

There then followed possibly some of the worst months of my life, as I had to endure the regular and seemingly endless screaming matches and rows between these two, seriously fucked-up equivalents of Romeo and Juliet. He, in particular, was a truly nasty piece of work - selfish, brain-dead, aggressive and violent to the core. (I once heard her shouting at him: "Ya hit me! Ya punched me in front of me daughter!" So that will give you an idea as to what an utterly despicable character that this malcontent was).

Anyways, to cut a long and savage story mercifully short, the Landlord gave them their marching orders. But he had to wait some time before the Social Services found somewhere else to house them. (Had it been up to me, I would have had the innocent child given into the care of a decent family, and left her parents to rot in a leaky, one man tent under a roundabout off the M50).

My point is, that there must surely be an onus on these charities and other institutions to (a) provide the necessary support, guidance, and regular ongoing interaction for the people that they are housing to help them adjust, (b) to set out the duty-of-care and responsibility they have towards the other tenants around them, and (c) make it abundantly clear to them, that if they cause serious problems of the kind that the two in question did, they they will be removed post-haste.

From what I could see and witnessed, none of this seems to have been in evidence in this case.

As a look through several of my previous posts on this forum have shown, I have demonstrated great empathy towards some of my fellow boarders who have written of their own mental-health problems. And I will continue to do so. But when someone starts to use those issues - whatever they may be - as an excuse to run roughshod over everyone else around them, and make other people's lives an absolute misery in the process, then that is where I draw the line.

Glad to hear that you survived your own encounter with that situation, Fungus, and thanks again for your support.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Tjm86 on 03 April, 2020, 08:09:55 PM
Quote from: paddykafka on 03 April, 2020, 06:50:31 PM
... I have demonstrated great empathy towards some of my fellow boarders who have written of their own mental-health problems. And I will continue to do so. But when someone starts to use those issues - whatever they may be - as an excuse to run roughshod over everyone else around them, and make other people's lives an absolute misery in the process, then that is where I draw the line.

Fair point, I think though that possibly a degree of compassion may be in order?  Not justifying such behaviour for an instance but here is the question, and once again the thread morphs:

- at what point do we 'give up' on someone who struggles with the psychological impact of their lives?

I'm not asking this in the abstract, this is a real question to me.  I live with the impact of trauma and the BPD(EU) that I have been diagnosed with on a daily basis.  I fight with it.  The thing is though, for a long time I didn't understand it.

Through all the time that I did not understand it, my behaviour was vile.  I cringe when I rethink those moments in my life.  The last 5 or more years I have been working to evolve beyond the experiences that shaped them.  I'm still not perfect but I recognise far quicker when I need to step back.  Now though I have landed myself in a world of trouble through a moment's lapse.  Even before this Covid crap kicked into high gear it already looked like I was f****ed.

I'm not saying that my diagnosis / condition / experience is an excuse to run roughshod.  What I am saying though is that some people might see it that way.  They see only that single moment.  Am I a lost cause?  Should those around me give up on me.  Should I give up on me?

I know that the Christian Gospel is held in low regard round here.  Considering the attitude of some who profess to 'believe' it, that is entirely understandable.  But looking at one line from a purely philosophical point of view.  So Peter turns round to Jesus and says "is seven times enough to forgive", and you can almost hear the cogs turning, the old 'how great and compassionate am I' as he bigs himself up.  Then he gets the reply.  "Seven times?  Try seventy times seven."  You can almost hear the jaw drop.  How the hell am I going to keep track if I've got to forgive that many times?  Isn't that a fair point?  How many times do we want to forgive?  How many times should we?

I've lost count of the number of times over the years that I've learned something about people that explains there behaviour.  Not justifies, mind.  I don't know.  Is the next time we forgive someone the one that breaks the camels back?  Is it the one that does make the change permanent?  I'm not talking about accepting behaviour that is wrong, immoral or obscene.  Hell, I can think of a number of people who I could cheerfully see burn for their behaviour and actions forty odd years ago.  This is a major challenge to me so I get why anyone would have trouble here.

I don't know.  I don't have the answers.  Only so many questions.  Feel free to shoot me down, challenge me, give me more questions.  Feel free to judge me.  Just take care folks.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: The Doctor Alt 8 on 05 April, 2020, 04:23:37 AM
I normally visit my friend Adrian once a week an cook him a meal, do any domestic chores because he can't ( or rather it's extremely difficult for him to do,) Do any shopping (Walking with two crutches mean he isn't able to move and quee )

Well because of the lockdown I have only been round once. I said that if he needs anything to call...I'm just concerned that I could be caught and fined. Although helping someone in his position is supposed to be allowable.

However I haven't seen any police patrolling... yet. Most people seem to be obeying the stay at home except shopping for food. other places are shut. Croydon is almost a ghost town..... This could kill the independent businesses not that there is many... There is a or rather was a V popular puzzle cafe. I hope it weathers this crisis.
At least the panic buying has died down but things are not completely normal supply wise ... things still missing from the shelves.  I think it's a distribution problem.


Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Old Tankie on 05 April, 2020, 07:50:21 AM
Carry on helping your friend, you are obviously a caring person.  Caring is allowed.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 05 April, 2020, 08:47:00 AM
Yeah, there are no circumstances where you will be fined for caring for a vulnerable or incapacitated person. From experiences in Ireland, if you're worried just bring a note with Adrian's name and address and tell any cop that that's where you're going, and why.

And good on you, Doc.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: paddykafka on 05 April, 2020, 12:04:29 PM
Kudo's to you, Doctor Alt 8. The world needs more good peeps like you in it. (And in case the cops give you grief, you can always adopt your Eldster disguise that you recently posted about, then slip back into your normal youthful persona to avoid detection.   ;) )

Stay safe and all the best.

Below are two links to brighten up my fellow Squaxx' days. The first is another timely, cartoon masterpiece by the inimitable Mr Turner.

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/martyn-turner-1.4220229

And below, a great, good news story about an 82 year-old Irish War Veteran who has beaten the virus. I wish him many more happy and healthy years ahead.

https://www.newstalk.com/news/jadotville-picnic-compared-82-year-old-tom-gunn-surviving-coronavirus-995121
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: The Doctor Alt 8 on 05 April, 2020, 12:46:02 PM
Thanks folks.

I have to be somewhat careful as mother is at the highest risk... being 82 with COPD. My friend Henry is in the same position and was given advice via a letter from the health service. (Like keeping 3 feet away from other members of the household.. and keeping his cutlery and crockery separate from everyone else.)    It's worrying because his brother is a driving instructor... clearly he can't work now and apparently it could be 3 months before he gets anything from unemployment.  The pair don't seem to understand that they now have to save money... they are a pair of spendthrifts and this crisis isn't helping. (Neither is owning 3 spoilt rotten dogs.)  I know we all should treat our pets like royalty but there are limits...
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: von Boom on 05 April, 2020, 01:15:41 PM
Good for you Dr.Alt8. Caring for the vulnerable is more important than ever.

Had an update from my mum about my uncle's bypass surgery. The surgeon saw him and said they can't wait. He's due to go in within the next two weeks. The biggest concern is going to be infection, but there's no way to avoid it. It would be a shame for the surgery to go well only to get the covid virus while trying to recover from bypass surgery.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: paddykafka on 05 April, 2020, 01:52:32 PM
Best wishes and fingers crossed for your Uncle, Von Boom.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: von Boom on 05 April, 2020, 03:10:29 PM
Cheers, paddy. I hope your own difficulties turn around.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: The Doctor Alt 8 on 05 April, 2020, 04:29:27 PM
Best wishes for the op.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: sheridan on 05 April, 2020, 09:31:37 PM
Man who boasts about going to hospitals and shaking hands with many people gets admitted to hospital with Covid-19 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52177125).



(the man is Boris Johnson)
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Tjm86 on 05 April, 2020, 09:48:58 PM
Quote from: sheridan on 05 April, 2020, 09:31:37 PM



(the man is Boris Johnson)


The agony here.  On the one hand, we are talking about Johnson.  On the other hand we are talking about a human being (albeit a Tory politician).  I'm going to go with a soupçon of sympathy.

Are we looking at the first national leader to join the 1% though?
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: sheridan on 05 April, 2020, 10:59:44 PM
Quote from: Tjm86 on 05 April, 2020, 09:48:58 PM
Quote from: sheridan on 05 April, 2020, 09:31:37 PM



(the man is Boris Johnson)


The agony here.  On the one hand, we are talking about Johnson.  On the other hand we are talking about a human being (albeit a Tory politician).  I'm going to go with a soupçon of sympathy.

Are we looking at the first national leader to join the 1% though?

You say one percent, and the 'just as bad as the flu, stop making a fuss' brigade said two percent, but when I look at diagnosed cases and the current deaths in this country, it's more like nine (and that's only hospital deaths and without post mortems of those who died but weren't diagnosed while still alive).

Though this is all assuming he actually does have it and it isn't just a bluff - like when Trump's doctor allegedly said he was healthy.  Just as a reminder of the latter, a few quotes from that medical report:
"laboratory results are astonishingly excellent"
"will be the healthiest individual ever elected to the presidency"
"health is excellent, especially his mental health"

Oh, and a few months later the same doctor said the following, which was a massive surprise to everybody:
"Mr. Trump dictated the letter and I would tell him what he couldn't put in there..."
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: JOE SOAP on 05 April, 2020, 11:37:44 PM
Quote from: sheridan on 05 April, 2020, 10:59:44 PM
when I look at diagnosed cases and the current deaths in this country, it's more like nine (and that's only hospital deaths and without post mortems of those who died but weren't diagnosed while still alive).

UK having done so little community testing and tracing so far means the official infected numbers recorded are way too low in comparison to deaths, and most likely far below actual number of infections. Still a high death rate, unfortunately.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Professor Bear on 05 April, 2020, 11:45:24 PM
All politics aside, here's hoping the Prime Minister's illness is a short one.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Funt Solo on 06 April, 2020, 12:18:50 AM
...and that he recovers.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 06 April, 2020, 07:32:35 AM
NM
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 06 April, 2020, 07:51:44 AM


Deaths registered weekly in England and Wales, provisional: week ending 20 March 2020. (https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/bulletins/deathsregisteredweeklyinenglandandwalesprovisional/weekending20march2020)

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 06 April, 2020, 08:38:17 AM
I use this site.  As the mortality rate is skewed by the lack of testing I go by 'deaths/1 million population' instead.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Tjm86 on 06 April, 2020, 12:16:25 PM
TBH I'm not completely surprised at the lack of specificity when it comes to recording of deaths.  When my father in law died the year before last it was about 6 hours before a doctor turned up to confirm the death and several hours more before the undertaker collected the body. 

As he had become a high dependency home care patient in the last few months he was in a hospital bed in the middle of the living room of their home.  All we could do was sit and wait with his corpse laying in the middle of the room.

Bearing in mind that this was a point in time when medical services were not really under much in the way of pressure ...
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Professor Bear on 06 April, 2020, 02:26:40 PM
Quote from: Funt Solo on 06 April, 2020, 12:18:50 AM
...and that he recovers.

That goes without saying.

HAVING SAID THAT it would be a very Boris thing for him to catch the virus he said everyone should catch and then die of it.  This is exactly how a British writer's satirical play about a politician with Boris' career and character would end.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 06 April, 2020, 03:00:17 PM
He'd better not die.  I don't want him martyred - I want him held to account.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: sheridan on 06 April, 2020, 06:04:28 PM
Quote from: shaolin_monkey on 06 April, 2020, 03:00:17 PM
He'd better not die.  I don't want him martyred - I want him held to account.

Has this been mentioned on this thread before?  He'll be held to account about the same time Tony Blair will be tried as a war criminal...
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Definitely Not Mister Pops on 06 April, 2020, 06:30:16 PM
I would never wish death upon another human being, so I hope the fucking dickhead recovers.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 06 April, 2020, 06:53:37 PM
Quote from: sheridan on 06 April, 2020, 06:04:28 PM
Quote from: shaolin_monkey on 06 April, 2020, 03:00:17 PM
He'd better not die.  I don't want him martyred - I want him held to account.

Has this been mentioned on this thread before?  He'll be held to account about the same time Tony Blair will be tried as a war criminal...

Good point.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Tjm86 on 06 April, 2020, 09:21:55 PM
Well, the news is now reporting that he's been taken into Intensive Care. 

What makes me laugh is that I have a vague recollection of someone lambasting RT earlier today for spreading 'fake news' about the state of Johnson's health.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 07 April, 2020, 01:51:47 AM
Royal Gwent hospital preparing for the worst in terms of deaths and being swamped by cases in next 48 hours:

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/ive-young-fit-well-patients-18048123

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-52182550


Also word coming through Twitter that two Swansea nurses have died. Another three still in ICU.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 07 April, 2020, 08:37:34 AM
The reason Trump is pushing a drug with some nasty side effects, untested against COVID-19, suddenly becomes clear (although we probably all suspected it):

"If hydroxychloroquine becomes an accepted treatment, several pharmaceutical companies stand to profit, including shareholders and senior executives with connections to the president. Mr. Trump himself has a small personal financial interest in Sanofi, the French drugmaker that makes Plaquenil, the brand-name version of hydroxychloroquine."


https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/06/us/politics/coronavirus-trump-malaria-drug.html
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 07 April, 2020, 09:28:06 AM
I think this theory is giving Trump too much credit.  He's just that sad little kid who aggressively tells everyone his Dad is a secret agent, and you better listen because he taught him three ways to kill you with his little finger, and also JFK survived and is kept in a secret room under the Pentagon, and his Dad didn't come to parents' evening because he's in deep cover in the Kremlin and that guy you saw coming out of William Hill's just looked like him.

More cynically, he probably has vastly larger investments in many things that will be adversely affected by his mumbling incoherence, so this is just a miserable coincidence.   
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: paddykafka on 07 April, 2020, 02:34:02 PM
Community policing at its finest. Could do with one of these where I am, lol.

https://9gag.com/hot/aDgynex?utm_campaign=link_post&utm_medium=social&utm_source=Facebook


Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 07 April, 2020, 03:09:10 PM
Quote from: paddykafka on 07 April, 2020, 02:34:02 PM
Community policing at its finest. Could do with one of these where I am, lol.

https://9gag.com/hot/aDgynex?utm_campaign=link_post&utm_medium=social&utm_source=Facebook

I welcome our new alien overlords.  They might be less lethal than our current ones.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 07 April, 2020, 03:40:53 PM
Urgh – beds, beds, beds.  COVID-19 appears to be sucking them up, alongside life threatening illnesses which are now taking longer to treat.

Other services are really starting to feel the bite now.  The government have tried to source beds for dementia patients, perhaps prompted by letters from bodies such as the Alzhiemer's Society:

https://www.alzheimers.org.uk/news/2020-03-12/coronavirus-alzheimers-society-call-government-covid-19-outbreak


However, this has now rolled over into mental health, where charities have serious concerns that mental health patients in hospitals or council-funded wards, many a danger to themselves and others, are being turfed out onto the street to secure COVID-19 beds, dementia beds and more.

Robbing Peter to pay Paul etc.

The mental health charity my partner works for have been so alarmed by this (especially as some recently released patients have committed suicide, and at least one has committed criminal offences) they released an open letter to the government, details here:

https://www.hafal.org/2020/04/hafal-calls-on-health-minister-to-guarantee-the-safety-of-its-client-group-during-covid-19-outbreak/


Why am I mentioning this?  I don't know really, other than to again highlight the dangerous precipice our entire heath system has been dangling over for best part for a decade now, and how the cracks have split into wide chasms when put under pressure. 

Folk we know, like our very own Eammon, and other key workers, be they providing mental health services, frontline NHS doctors and nurses, carers for a variety of disabilities, even folk like bus drivers, shop assistants etc etc etc, must be under some quite extraordinary and horrific pressure right now. 

I know my partner is, and she's a bit on the periphery of the pressure the NHS is under – she's on call after call, trying to get her staff PPE so they can visit service users and don't get infected, putting disaster-recovery plans in place with affiliated charities as folk are turfed onto the street, trying to pull beds out of thin air for NHS managers, and trying to support the police who are themselves trying their best to protect those released early, and protect those around them.

People are being, and will continue to be, harmed.

Our health services inside and outside our hospitals are on a brutal razor's edge right now.  Once we're through this crisis we CANNOT allow this to happen again.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 07 April, 2020, 04:02:53 PM
Quote from: shaolin_monkey on 07 April, 2020, 01:51:47 AM
Also word coming through Twitter that two Swansea nurses have died. Another three still in ICU.

Swansea Bay NHS have said this is categorically not the case - the nurse in another district got the wrong end of the stick.  As per post above, with the pressure NHS workers are under, these things are going to happen.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 07 April, 2020, 06:17:33 PM

"Once we're through this crisis we CANNOT allow this to happen again."

Don't worry, I'm sure our benevolent masters have a Plan. Sure, it probably involves increased debt slavery, Public Health Mandatory Checkpoints, a binding social credit system, centrally controlled digital currencies, forced vaccinations, criminalising illness, and compulsory  self - imprisonment -  isolation periods but, hey, a plan is a plan, right?

No matter what one thinks of the virus itself (overblown or under-reported, natural or man-made, originating in China or the US, lethal or innocuous),  [sarcasm] only a paltry 1/3 of humanity is on lockdown so far - fingers crossed for more next time, eh? [/sarcasm]

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 07 April, 2020, 07:19:13 PM
I was thinking more along the lines of socialism.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Funt Solo on 07 April, 2020, 07:22:35 PM
Quote from: The Legendary Shark on 07 April, 2020, 06:17:33 PM

"Once we're through this crisis we CANNOT allow this to happen again."

Don't worry, I'm sure our benevolent masters have a Plan. Sure, it probably involves increased debt slavery, Public Health Mandatory Checkpoints, a binding social credit system, centrally controlled digital currencies, forced vaccinations, criminalising illness, and compulsory  self - imprisonment -  isolation periods but, hey, a plan is a plan, right?

No matter what one thinks of the virus itself (overblown or under-reported, natural or man-made, originating in China or the US, lethal or innocuous),  [sarcasm] only a paltry 1/3 of humanity is on lockdown so far - fingers crossed for more next time, eh? [/sarcasm]

(https://www.reactiongifs.com/r/tbt.gif)
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 07 April, 2020, 08:03:14 PM

Great pic, FS!

A true anarchist helping people escape from tyranny and oppression! (Or a criminal helping fugitives flee the justice of their rightful ruler, I guess, depending on your viewpoint.)

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Modern Panther on 07 April, 2020, 08:37:44 PM
A police officer helps people flee a capitalist monopoly and forge a representative democracy where the means of production belong to the workers.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 07 April, 2020, 09:12:48 PM

Indeed - but in the end he walks away.

Or is sometimes left behind.

But he chooses his own masters. Chooses his own path, for better or worse. Gotta love ol' Max! :D

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Funt Solo on 07 April, 2020, 11:44:20 PM
Can't resist the urge to expose the misinformation you presented...

Quote from: The Legendary Shark on 07 April, 2020, 06:17:33 PM
natural or man-made

This is an example of false balance. Covid-19 is natural (https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/the-new-coronavirus-was-not-genetically-engineered-study-shows), not man-made.


Quote from: The Legendary Shark on 07 April, 2020, 06:17:33 PM
originating in China or the US

Another example of false balance. It was China (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coronavirus_disease_2019).


Quote from: The Legendary Shark on 07 April, 2020, 06:17:33 PM
lethal or innocuous

This is a false dichotomy: there's a rainbow of possible outcomes for victims. The actual fatality rate is a moving target (https://www.newscientist.com/article/2239497-why-we-still-dont-know-what-the-death-rate-is-for-covid-19/) as we're still in the grip of the crisis. Everyone agrees it's much more serious than flu (except for conspiracy nuts and idiots) - because of all the dead bodies.


Quote from: The Legendary Shark on 07 April, 2020, 06:17:33 PM
overblown or under-reported

Another false dichotomy. It would be impossible to mount a strong argument for "overblown" given that the global shut-down is (drum roll) unprecedented (https://www.bbc.com/news/business-52137727). On the other hand, Turkmenistan  (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-52186521)is pretending it isn't happening. And in-between there are all the colours of the rainbow (again - isn't it pretty).

---

You also managed to strongly imply that the measures put in place to slow the spread of the virus are somehow a government plot to control everyone - but I'm too tired to even. It's just so fucking disrespectful of you to come on here and talk shit about your conspiracy theory bollocks when people are dying.

Because:

New York reports highest single-day virus death toll (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-52205118)
Coronavirus French death toll passes 10,000 (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-52202705)
Doctor in his 70s at Kingston Hospital dies (https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-52204509)
'Stay at home' plea from pregnant nurse with Covid-19 (https://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-england-birmingham-52206276/stay-at-home-plea-from-pregnant-nurse-with-covid-19)
etc.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 08 April, 2020, 05:47:15 AM
This is a long read, but a stunning and brutal expose on the failure of our government.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-britain-path-speci-idUSKBN21P1VF


Projections show U.K. will be the worst hit in all of Europe.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/07/uk-will-be-europes-worst-hit-by-coronavirus-study-predicts

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Tjm86 on 08 April, 2020, 02:17:06 PM
It's well worth the read but not exactly surprising.  Not to mention the flaws in the old "we're following the science" line.  Just ignoring the calibre of scientist that normally ends up in governmental positions.

... and in related news, Trump is now castigating the WHO for providing poor advice and attempting to re-write the History of Covid-19 in the USA as a result of his own failings.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 08 April, 2020, 02:36:46 PM
The usual attempts to shift blame from that odious fat shite.

The WHO are hardly blameless in their earliest responses, but even so the facts had been shouted from the rooftops for over a month before Trump did anything other than mock concern about Covid-19.

And if there was justifiable concern about the WHO's impartiality, it was the Trump Admin who'd made the US completely reliant on the WHO: it obliterated the US Epidemiological presence in China, including 2/3rds of the Beijing CDC office, and closed the Beijing offices of the National Science Foundation and the Agency for International Development, both of which dealt with the potential for and response to pandemics. 

"We had a large operation of experts in China who were brought back during this administration, some of them months before the outbreak," said one of the people who witnessed the withdrawal of U.S. personnel. "You have to consider the possibility that our drawdown made this catastrophe more likely or more difficult to respond to."  Reuters (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-china-cdc-exclusiv/exclusive-u-s-slashed-cdc-staff-inside-china-prior-to-coronavirus-outbreak-idUSKBN21C3N5)
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: von Boom on 08 April, 2020, 04:27:30 PM
A message from Motley Crue's Tommy Lee:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EU3ryETXYAEt7ZC?format=jpg&name=large)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EU3ryV5WoAEpPrF?format=jpg&name=large)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EU3ryV7WkAIvW5c?format=jpg&name=medium)
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 08 April, 2020, 05:56:35 PM

Speaking of Trump:

"When an AP reporter
attempted to ask Trump
about the issue on Sunday,
the president cut off the
question.

"FEMA, the military, what
they've done is a miracle,"
Trump said with a flash of
anger. "What they've done is
a miracle in getting all of this
stuff. What they have done
for states is incredible."

Trump then ended the
briefing and walked off the
podium."

From:

US 'wasted' months before preparing for coronavirus pandemic
By MICHAEL BIESECKER April 6, 2020 GMT
WASHINGTON (AP) (https://apnews.com/090600c299a8cf07f5b44d92534856bc)

Quite a list of failures.

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 08 April, 2020, 06:37:09 PM
Quote from: von Boom on 08 April, 2020, 04:27:30 PM
A message from Motley Crue's Tommy Lee:
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EU3ryETXYAEt7ZC?format=jpg&name=large)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EU3ryV5WoAEpPrF?format=jpg&name=large)
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EU3ryV7WkAIvW5c?format=jpg&name=medium)

It wasn't Tommy Lee who wrote that:

https://heavy.com/entertainment/2020/04/tommy-lee-trump-letter-twitter/


It was this dude on Twitter - @AJPennyFarthing
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Pete Wells on 08 April, 2020, 07:01:02 PM
My lil' girl has got us making hone made squishies tonight. I'm rather pleased with mine...

(https://i.postimg.cc/kXPCt7P6/75-C2-F307-D812-437-B-AB30-232-ED5-B8-DDBF.jpg)
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: von Boom on 08 April, 2020, 08:31:45 PM
Quote from: shaolin_monkey on 08 April, 2020, 06:37:09 PM
Quote from: von Boom on 08 April, 2020, 04:27:30 PM
A message from Motley Crue's Tommy Lee:

It wasn't Tommy Lee who wrote that:

https://heavy.com/entertainment/2020/04/tommy-lee-trump-letter-twitter/


It was this dude on Twitter - @AJPennyFarthing
That's a shame.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Rately on 09 April, 2020, 08:16:03 AM
Clap for Boris? Christ. The right-wing media really are Gestapo-like.

The numbers being reported are horrendous, and we are being asked to clap and support a PM and his Government who failed us all, and continue to do so.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 09 April, 2020, 09:55:54 AM
Funt Solo: thank you for your rebuttal earlier. Shark: consider this a warning. Earlier in this thread, it was clearly stated that misinformation on this topic will not be tolerated.

Tjm: "we're following the science"

Increasingly clear that line was double-edged (per perhaps, er, more edged). Sets up 'blame'. (We just did what the scientists told us.) But also aligns with ideology (by following/prioritising specific types of science, such as behavioural). Increasingly, it's obvious what should have been done: even if the nudge technique was used, it should have been started two weeks earlier, as a precautionary measure. Brexiters have been banging on about borders for four years, but didn't close ours when it actually mattered.

The US comes out of this even worse. You can only imagine how long this disease is going to rattle around for now.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: paddykafka on 09 April, 2020, 11:15:12 AM
Even the Cats are setting a good example.

https://www.facebook.com/photo?fbid=10160377221751840&set=a.109041001839
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Tjm86 on 09 April, 2020, 01:47:44 PM
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 09 April, 2020, 09:55:54 AM
Tjm: "we're following the science"

Increasingly clear that line was double-edged (per perhaps, er, more edged). Sets up 'blame'. (We just did what the scientists told us.) But also aligns with ideology (by following/prioritising specific types of science, such as behavioural).

Aye.  This is possibly the most terrifying aspect of all this.  It's almost like someone watched every bad Sci Fi catastrophe movie ever made and then decided to use the old "over-promoted half wit slaps down the outsider expert with the real solution" trope as their recruiting and crisis management strategy. 

If it wasn't for the fact that it was really happening and the death toll was so high I might be inclined to think that I'd turned to the latest hollywood brain-buster rather than the evening news.  It's like we're in the 2nd act where the muppets still run the show, the brainless leader has taken it in the chest but too many spineless lackeys are managing to keep his old plates spinning so the real 'experts' still can't get a look in.  Oh and by the way, the third act shocker is going to make the death toll by the end of the first act look tame.

I would like to stress that this is a fictional plot for a really dire "made for Channel 5 / direct to Amazon Prime" movie.  Any resemblance to actual events and / or people is just an absolutely horrifying coincidence.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 09 April, 2020, 02:05:41 PM
One of my (many) nagging fears for the medium-to-long term is that if we dodge the worst of the bullet in the UK and come out with only (!) 15-20,000 fatalities then we'll end up with another Y2K situation where people (including many who absolutely should know better) will claim the lack of a worst case scenario as proof of an over-reaction, rather than an effective reaction.

Which will only make it all the harder to coordinate an effective response in the general population when the next pandemic hits.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 09 April, 2020, 02:22:45 PM
Thing is, short of a miracle, even our best-case scenario will put us as the worst case in Europe. (I suspect the USA will end up worse off per capita than we do.) The government will need to answer to that. Why did we do worse than Germany, France and even Spain, not least when we had massive advance warning? Blaming scientists won't be enough when there is video footage of Johnson acting like a fucking idiot and saying he was shaking hands with people, and that we didn't need to shut stuff down.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Tjm86 on 09 April, 2020, 02:36:38 PM
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 09 April, 2020, 02:05:41 PM
... we'll end up with another Y2K situation where people (including many who absolutely should know better) will claim the lack of a worst case scenario as proof of an over-reaction, rather than an effective reaction.

See this, to my mind, is where the mainstream media has been so utterly pathetic, to the point of criminality, in recent decades.  The focus on pushing a particular agenda, selling more papers / pulling more viewers regardless of what the content is like or catching the scalp of some major politician in the same vein as Woodward and Bernstein has led to a standard of 'journalism' amongst professionals that is execrable to say the least.  A prime example being our current, inestimable Prime Minister, who built his career on the sort of material that wasn't even fit for the worst type of tabloid.

Now you factor in social media and the tendency of lunatics the world over the share the latest tin-foil ravings of some Hollywood star / 'influencer' as if it were fact rather than the vapid crap that would get them kicked out of your local branch of Weatherspoon's and you can see where this is heading.  Or rather has led us.  Time and again I've leafed through some of the utopian dreams of commentators of the nineties on how the internet is going to free us all and lead us to Nirvana.  They didn't see the likes of Zuckerberg coming.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Funt Solo on 09 April, 2020, 05:35:55 PM
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 09 April, 2020, 02:05:41 PM
...people (including many who absolutely should know better) will claim the lack of a worst case scenario as proof of an over-reaction, rather than an effective reaction.

This.

My extended family in the US have been creatively interpreting the "stay home" mandate from the state governor to encompass a variety of households (thus not actually following the advice) and I've been the one loudly smashing pots and pans together and shouting "Get off the beach! It's a tsunami!"

I expect as the curve gets duly flattened by the majority of people following the measures I'll get told "See: it wasn't all that bad - you were denting your pots and pans for nothing." Oh well. At least I'll be alive to feel the chagrin. [Knocks on wood.]
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 09 April, 2020, 07:29:38 PM

Bank of England to directly finance UK government's extra spending. (https://www.ft.com/content/664c575b-0f54-44e5-ab78-2fd30ef213cb)

Cautiously optimistic about this - at the very least it might get people (finally) talking about where money comes from, what it's for, and better ways to create it. On the other hand, I worry that the current [spoiler]CENSORED[/spoiler].

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Professor Bear on 09 April, 2020, 08:16:26 PM
Sharky, you are doing the government's work for them because you are splitting focus away from what they did wrong.  "China created Covid in a laboratory" (SPOILER: no they didn't) and "the public panic buying toilet roll proves that people are stupid and are the ones who are really at fault here" are much the same thing - a shell game to make you talk about anything other than the fact that the government tried to let hundreds of thousands of people die to protect the economy.  They want to fracture the narrative and get people following their own little strands rather than concentrating on the most important one.
And it's working.  I see people already not only talking about how the response was an over-reaction, but that even if it was true we should go back to business as usual anyway.

I don't think people are really grasping that we didn't save some lives because of our governments' actions, we saved lives despite our governments' actions.  The plan was to let us die, and if we weren't as interconnected and wired to each other via dumbass social media connections and got a head start on the lockdown ourselves because we saw that's what they were doing in Asia, we'd have fucking fallen for it and we'd be looking at a bodycount a magnitude higher.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 09 April, 2020, 08:40:48 PM

Just to be clear, the ending to my last post should be interpreted as [spoiler]TONGUE-IN-CHEEK SELF-CENSORED[/spoiler] and not [spoiler]REALLY CENSORED[/spoiler].

It's a kind of a joke, you see. I apologise for any confusion.

***

Prof, I'd love to respond but I'm walking on eggshells here. I'm even getting abusive PMs from one or two people who swear at me and then refuse to engage in further dialogue.

I have PMed an Admin and am awaiting guidance on what I can and can't say. (I have no problem with following the rules for public posts but I would like to know what the rules are so I can follow them.)

Everyone is more than welcome to PM me for a free and open discussion, if that idea floats your boat, but if anyone just wants a slanging match, I'm not interested.

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: sheridan on 09 April, 2020, 09:43:56 PM
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 09 April, 2020, 02:05:41 PM
One of my (many) nagging fears for the medium-to-long term is that if we dodge the worst of the bullet in the UK and come out with only (!) 15-20,000 fatalities then we'll end up with another Y2K situation where people (including many who absolutely should know better) will claim the lack of a worst case scenario as proof of an over-reaction, rather than an effective reaction.

Which will only make it all the harder to coordinate an effective response in the general population when the next pandemic hits.
I'd chuck in people complaining that the campaign to have safe sex in the eighties to prevent AIDS was a waste of money as there wasn't a subsequent pandemic.  So I wouldn't hold out much hope that (if whatever the government eventually decides to do next works) they'll appreciate it could have been worse.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 09 April, 2020, 10:22:53 PM
"...the Government remains committed to the idea that the vast majority of the UK population will contract COVID-19, making a minimum number of deaths inevitable, albeit over a longer period of time.

"Using the Government's own lowest estimate of a fatality rate at around 0.5%, this confirms that it has resigned itself to the expectation that some 264,000 Britons will inevitably die in ensuing months and years from the disease."


Fuckers. Utter fuckers.

LINK. (https://bylinetimes.com/2020/04/09/leaked-home-office-call-reveals-uk-government-wants-economy-to-continue-running-as-we-will-all-get-covid-19-anyway/?fbclid=IwAR1TvyT9MYPPhz6B4R-0l-twcQW0ttSQQK7QXM9BvEYT5aumbFi5RzexrgI)
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Funt Solo on 09 April, 2020, 11:58:39 PM
First time I've heard of the Byline Times: but on the surface I'd be a bit wary of a news source that claims to have the only worthwhile truth (they do so in the article, and in their editorial stance). The story was covered with less mouth-foam by the BBC (https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-52219930) and the Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/09/coronavirus-uk-passport-office-accused-of-taking-cavalier-approach-to-staff-safety) (for example), neither of which saw the need to decry other news sources as not having dug deeply enough. There are editorial assumptions made (by BT) about the UK government having an over-arching and systemic shadow policy (although I don't doubt that it is possible they do).

The underlying logic is unfortunately difficult to avoid, though. Globally, each economy wants to lift restrictions as soon as it's able. Without a cure (or vaccine), that leaves the population exposed to the virus, which means more deaths. That term "flattening the curve" doesn't say anything about reducing what might be considered a minimum death rate - it does try to stop a maximal death rate (where the health services burst like a damn and potential survivors die by the bucket-load).

Into the subtleties (and here I would hope the UK government has some of its thought). Once you regain control over your health services (once that curve is flattened) you might be in a position to do what the Chinese and South Koreans (as two key examples) seemed to be so good at: isolating victims and tracking their contacts so as to control the spread. You can't do that when the infection is too widespread because it's too complex.

That Rupert Shute guy does seem like a dangerous moron, though. He says "You are no more at risk at the workplace as you would be in your home or at the supermarket". He seems to rather be missing the point of minimizing the number of people around you - unless he assumes we all live in enormous Victorian slum-dwellings with 100 to a room.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Professor Bear on 10 April, 2020, 02:53:27 AM
Possibly because insomnia and booze are a factor, I feel the need to clarify that I'm not having a swipe at you, Funt, but: your first instinct is to question a lefty news source while offering as more reliable alternatives a media outlet that spent literally decades suppressing stories about members of government and its own staff raping children, and a newspaper notorious for being abandoned by its own readers in the last few years after being repeatedly caught fabricating stories (https://www.dailymaverick.co.za/article/2019-09-11-how-the-uk-security-services-neutralised-the-countrys-leading-liberal-newspaper/) in service to UK intelligence agencies.
Like I say, it's important to be clear that I'm not having a dig at your post but making an observation about who we instinctively question or give the benefit of the doubt, and why that may be relevant as to why the practically-newborn Byline Times is hostile towards certain monolithic journalistic outlets and how/why they disseminate the information they do.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Funt Solo on 10 April, 2020, 04:09:38 AM
Honestly, I think it's a fair criticism, to an extent. My defense is that "in all things, balance" (which I'm not sure is a quote, but it sounds like one, so I've used quotation marks).

So, The Guardian has its flaws, as does the BBC: but they both have a lot of staff (so a lot of editorial viewpoints) and a long track record of stories that one may also assume aren't biased. Should I tar their entire output with one brush, or take each instance on its own merits? The Byline Times I am judging on my few minutes of experience with one of their articles and their editorial stance: and it may turn out with the passage of time not to be fair. Still: they do seem to have taken a leap of logic in their reporting on this story - perhaps influenced by their own bias?

My following points (about what we can do in tackling the crisis to both minimize deaths and maximize productivity) were echoed back to me in a Channel 4 News segment tonight with the headline Government advisers probably overlooked mass testing early on, says public health professor (https://www.channel4.com/news/government-advisers-probably-overlooked-mass-testing-early-on-says-public-health-professor).

Whether this proves that I'm following a scientific consensus or whether I'm a slave to the established media is up for debate. No prizes for guessing what I think.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 10 April, 2020, 07:58:46 AM

Question everything.

Simple.

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: CalHab on 10 April, 2020, 08:38:06 AM
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 09 April, 2020, 02:22:45 PM
Thing is, short of a miracle, even our best-case scenario will put us as the worst case in Europe. (I suspect the USA will end up worse off per capita than we do.) The government will need to answer to that. Why did we do worse than Germany, France and even Spain, not least when we had massive advance warning? Blaming scientists won't be enough when there is video footage of Johnson acting like a fucking idiot and saying he was shaking hands with people, and that we didn't need to shut stuff down.

If we had a functional and critical popular press then I would agree with you. We don't. We have broadcast media which simply relays government briefings and a print press which is beholden to it's owners.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 10 April, 2020, 08:48:38 AM

We also have some very good independent journalists and researchers who are, unfortunately, too often dismissed as "conspiracy theorists" (whatever that even means).

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 10 April, 2020, 10:20:27 AM
Quote from: The Legendary Shark on 10 April, 2020, 08:48:38 AM

We also have some very good independent journalists and researchers who are, unfortunately, too often dismissed as "conspiracy theorists" (whatever that even means).

Here you go Sharkey. Here's an academic pamphlet on the definition of conspiracy theories and theorists.

https://www.climatechangecommunication.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/ConspiracyTheoryHandbook.pdf
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: sheridan on 10 April, 2020, 10:47:14 AM
Quote from: Funt Solo on 09 April, 2020, 11:58:39 PM
That Rupert Shute guy does seem like a dangerous moron, though. He says "You are no more at risk at the workplace as you would be in your home or at the supermarket". He seems to rather be missing the point of minimizing the number of people around you - unless he assumes we all live in enormous Victorian slum-dwellings with 100 to a room.
Home - alone, kept isolated from contact with potential carriers.

Supermarket - spending a minute or two at a time in close proximity to other people in the same aisle.

Work - spending seven or eight hours a metre or less from potential carriers.

I know which way around I see the hierarchy of risk!
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Professor Bear on 10 April, 2020, 02:36:58 PM
Quote from: Funt Solo on 10 April, 2020, 04:09:38 AM
So, The Guardian has its flaws, as does the BBC: but they both have a lot of staff (so a lot of editorial viewpoints) and a long track record of stories that one may also assume aren't biased.

I'll only offer that I would never presume to tell someone they're wrong to boycott The Sun or Daily Mail.

Quote from: The Legendary Shark on 10 April, 2020, 07:58:46 AMQuestion everything.

Why?
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: sheridan on 10 April, 2020, 03:43:35 PM
Quote from: The Legendary Shark on 10 April, 2020, 07:58:46 AMQuestion everything.

Why?
[/quote]

Why not?
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Funt Solo on 10 April, 2020, 04:32:47 PM
Quote from: sheridan on 10 April, 2020, 03:43:35 PM
Quote from: The Legendary Shark on 10 April, 2020, 07:58:46 AMQuestion everything.
Quote
Why?

Why not?

Our first instinct on seeing this image...

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81n%2ByVC8ajL._AC_SX466_.jpg)

...isn't to count the tiles.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: sheridan on 10 April, 2020, 04:49:29 PM
Quote from: Funt Solo on 10 April, 2020, 04:32:47 PM
Quote from: sheridan on 10 April, 2020, 03:43:35 PM
Quote from: The Legendary Shark on 10 April, 2020, 07:58:46 AMQuestion everything.
Quote
Why?

Why not?

Our first instinct on seeing this image...

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81n%2ByVC8ajL._AC_SX466_.jpg)

...isn't to count the tiles.


I was questioning the questioner who questioned the statement to question everything? :-P
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Professor Bear on 10 April, 2020, 05:01:30 PM
Are you sure?
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Funt Solo on 10 April, 2020, 05:19:01 PM
Quote from: sheridan on 10 April, 2020, 04:49:29 PM
Quote from: Funt Solo on 10 April, 2020, 04:32:47 PM
Quote from: sheridan on 10 April, 2020, 03:43:35 PM
Quote from: The Legendary Shark on 10 April, 2020, 07:58:46 AMQuestion everything.
Quote
Why?

Why not?

Our first instinct on seeing this image...

(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/81n%2ByVC8ajL._AC_SX466_.jpg)

...isn't to count the tiles.


I was questioning the questioner who questioned the statement to question everything? :-P

I can be so dense. Still: nice mosaic.

(And interesting what you can do with 1369 tiles.)
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 10 April, 2020, 05:47:52 PM
Quote from: shaolin_monkey on 10 April, 2020, 10:20:27 AM
Quote from: The Legendary Shark on 10 April, 2020, 08:48:38 AM



Here you go Sharkey. Here's an academic pamphlet on the definition of conspiracy theories and theorists.

https://www.climatechangecommunication.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/ConspiracyTheoryHandbook.pdf

I read that - at least, I did if it's the one you posted earlier. I thought it contained a lot of good advice, advice which should be applied to every source. It did, however, imply that anyone who questions "reputable" sources is somehow bound to believe in every conspiracy there is. Still, a useful little book, thanks, SM.

The term 'conspiracy theorist' is, to me, a pejorative term used to describe anyone who doesn't believe an official account either partially or in its entirety. The paragons of example would be David 'Lizard Man' Ike or Alex 'They'll Kill Us All!' Jones. Whilst the information people like this often present is based in reported and even verifiable facts, the conclusions (or theories) they come to based upon them seem, at best, unlikely. I view this end of the spectrum in the same way I viewed Erich von Däniken when I was growing up - interesting, even thought-provoking, but ultimately probably wrong. Like von Däniken, these people turn their efforts into a business - and good luck to them, I say.

At the other end of the spectrum we have people like James 'The Link's In The Show-Notes' Corbett and Jon 'No More Fake News' Rappoport.  The information people like this often present is also based in reported and even verifiable facts, but the conclusions (or theories) they come to based upon them seem, at worst, incomplete - which some freely admit. I view this end of the spectrum in the same way I viewed newspapers when I was growing up - interesting, even thought-provoking, but ultimately probably on the right track. Like old-fashioned newspapers, these people seem to have a general thirst for the truth, whether it agrees with the official account or not - and good luck to them, I say. Most rely on donations to fund their work, so are ultimately businesses too.

Then there are the chattering masses in between - of which I am one - who latch onto 'TRUTH!' with unshakeable faith, or try to make sense of it all, or just go with the flow, or deal with the madness any way they can.

It seems unfair, to me, to lump all these disparate voices and perspectives together under a single, dismissive umbrella. And, technically, a conspiracy theory is just what the words themselves say - a theory to explain an ostensible flaw in an account, which may or may not involve conspirators, a theory meant to be explored and tested, a theory which provides evidence and not, as some believe, proof. Police, insurance companies, and courts investigate conspiracies all the time, working on their theories until they provide credible evidence. Yet we would not call these people "conspiracy theorists," even though it's part of their job.

Then we have the mainstream media and governments. The information people like this often present is also based in reported and even verifiable facts, but the conclusions (or theories) they come to based upon them seem, at worst, political - bending facts to fit agendas. I view this field in the same way I viewed comics when I was growing up - interesting, even thought-provoking, but ultimately probably just entertainment. Like John Wagner, these people seem to have a general thirst for projecting TRUTH! through a lens, bending it to agree with the official agenda - and good luck to them, many say.

This is why I say question everything.

It doesn't mean dismiss everything or disbelieve everything you don't like - that's what religion is for. It doesn't mean attack the opposing view or win the argument - that's what sport is for.

It simply means what it says, question everything - because nothing is entirely as it seems, and anyone who tells you otherwise is either in error or lying.

Question everything I've written, too, of course. I may be wrong about lots of things, I'm just as human and flawed as everyone else. Question Ike and Jones, question Corbett and Rappoport, question the msm, question me, question each other but, ultimately, question yourself as well.


TL;DR

A wise man once said to me, "Listen to everyone. Take what you need and discard the rest."

"Why?" I asked.

He shrugged and said, "Find out."


Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 10 April, 2020, 05:52:43 PM
980. This feels so unreal. The worst in all Europe.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Tjm86 on 10 April, 2020, 06:11:02 PM
Quote from: Professor Bear on 10 April, 2020, 02:36:58 PM
I'll only offer that I would never presume to tell someone they're wrong to boycott The Sun or Daily Mail.

The only really effective way to avoid the cognitive bias that allows conspiracy theories to flourish is to spend time looking at reportage even from those who would normally make your blood boil.  A healthy dose of scepticism and an open mind are the only defences we have.

Granted it can be painful to listen to the likes of Farage, Yaxley-Lennon or Trump.  It can feel a little insane spending five minutes on the RT site.  You come away from the Express site wondering if you have just been pranked.  Then again it also makes you more critical of the Guardian or the BBC.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Definitely Not Mister Pops on 10 April, 2020, 06:21:25 PM
There is genuinely "just asking questions" and there is casting undue suspicion and uncertainty and there is a difference between the two. Questions can either interrogate the facts or attempt to deny reality.

Anyway,  two funerals in as many weeks for my next door neighbours. One was the 88 year old matriarch of the household (Lily), nowt to do with covid-19, Lily was just really old. The second was today, her 54 year old son. That was covid-19.

This house had a non-stop flow of visitors and well wishers after Lily's passing. While the community support is admirable, it's also terrifying in the current circumstances.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 10 April, 2020, 08:48:25 PM
980 deaths recorded today in the U.K.,  the highest in all of Europe, IS NOT THE NUMBER ONE HEADLINE ON THE BBC NEWS WEBSITE.

Instead we have a fluff piece about the health secretary 'working hard' to source PPE!

The BBC has a duty to inform the citizens of the U.K. - failure to do so is dangerous negligence. If it refuses to report this, it is the end of it being a reputable source of information.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 10 April, 2020, 09:58:17 PM
Quote from: shaolin_monkey on 10 April, 2020, 08:48:25 PM
980 deaths recorded today ...If it refuses to report this, it is the end of it being a reputable source of information.

Quick correction - it is reported, about halfway down the 'Herculean effort' Matt Hancock article.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Tjm86 on 11 April, 2020, 08:03:17 AM
Quote from: shaolin_monkey on 10 April, 2020, 08:48:25 PM

Instead we have a fluff piece about the health secretary 'working hard' to source PPE!


... and the Mail reporting that Hancock has allegedly criticised NHS staff over 'excessive use' of PPE (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8208991/Health-Secretary-Matt-Hancock-tells-medics-use-PPE-patients.html)!  This is in the same week that reports have emerged of  threats of disciplinary action against staff who talk to the media. (https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/apr/09/nhs-staff-forbidden-speaking-out-publicly-about-coronavirus)  Leaving aside whistleblower protection, anyone who sends an email to staff along those lines is the one who should face sanctions, not the staff raising concerns about patient welfare.

I don't have a hell of a lot of time or respect for doctors after some of the idiots I've experienced in my past but even so I would still trust them more than some of the HR halfwits and PR specialists that are sucking valuable resources away from the real job of frontline staff.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Rately on 11 April, 2020, 08:54:50 AM
The numbers just terrify me. The pain and suffering, the families and friends left behind. It is just all so horrendous.

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: sheridan on 11 April, 2020, 09:30:19 AM
I'm wondering how long it'll take for the real numbers to come out, if they ever do.  Remember, what gets reported on (however begrudgingly) is only the hospital deaths.  How many self-isolators without people checking in on them via phone, email, skype, etc are even now lying dead in their homes?

This was around the corner from where I used to live (not at the time I was living there, but it does mean I'm familiar with the area).  Under normal circumstances this person lived above a busy shopping centre (straddles the main road, two levels and a multi-storey car park, cinema, etc - it's a big place) and when they died had their TV on and audible from outside the flat.  She lay there dead for two years (https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2006/apr/14/audreygillan.uknews2).  Personally I think there are already hundreds of people in this situation already, and if there aren't, there will be by the time any restrictions are lifted.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Rately on 11 April, 2020, 09:54:02 AM
I hope that any actual investigation into this absolute shambles really does the job needed. We need people held to account, not slaps on the wrists when such recklessness and incompetence has been allowed to occur.

We knew it was coming. The science didn't change. They adopted a reckless policy. We are still not enforcing a proper lockdown, and every time I leave the house I'm just hoping and praying that I'm lucky enough to avoid this bloody thing.

To watch these chancers and liars on TV try to shift blame to the NHS, Footballers etc. just disgusts me.

The sad thing, as many have already said on the thread, I fully expect after this that it will all be whitewashed, Boris and his ilk will be venerated, and families all across the UK will be left to pick up the pieces and suffer in silence.

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Tjm86 on 11 April, 2020, 10:13:52 AM
You can already see the narrative being tested for the post-apocalypse scapegoating.  The big one is the idea that there was an element of 'group think' among scientific advisors that led to a degree of complacency on the part of politicians about the real risks. 

Chris Whitty seems to be the key fall-guy at the moment but there is also a very real sense in which the faceless mob of the civil service is likely to feature prominently in the roster of targets.  Much will be made of the "we are following the science" mantra of the early days despite the inherent ambivalence in that statement.

Let's face it, you've got a better chance of winning the lottery than a proper accounting once this is all done.

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Rately on 11 April, 2020, 10:33:38 AM
Quote from: Tjm86 on 11 April, 2020, 10:13:52 AM
You can already see the narrative being tested for the post-apocalypse scapegoating.  The big one is the idea that there was an element of 'group think' among scientific advisors that led to a degree of complacency on the part of politicians about the real risks. 

Chris Whitty seems to be the key fall-guy at the moment but there is also a very real sense in which the faceless mob of the civil service is likely to feature prominently in the roster of targets.  Much will be made of the "we are following the science" mantra of the early days despite the inherent ambivalence in that statement.

Let's face it, you've got a better chance of winning the lottery than a proper accounting once this is all done.

Sad, but true.

I would have hoped that the horror of this situation, and when you see people from all over the world, caring and loving the most vulnerable in our society, falling to a horrendous virus, that the scales would fall from peoples eyes, and the vileness of the likes of The Sun and Murdoch's assorted hate mongering services would finally be seen through, and perhaps our society could take a more positive and sceptical approach to the nonsense that has been force fed to us all.

Then you go on Twitter and see the balloons still harping on about how Brexit needs Brexited, and that the EU are being mean, that it is the fault of everyone except those in charge....

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: sintec on 11 April, 2020, 10:35:45 AM
Quote from: shaolin_monkey on 10 April, 2020, 09:58:17 PM
Quote from: shaolin_monkey on 10 April, 2020, 08:48:25 PM
980 deaths recorded today ...If it refuses to report this, it is the end of it being a reputable source of information.

Quick correction - it is reported, about halfway down the 'Herculean effort' Matt Hancock article.

It does feel like the BBC have decided to keep these figures out of the headlines this week. When it was Italy that was topping the figures the death toll there was headline news each day. Now it's hitting closer to home it's fluff pieces about the prime minsters recovery at the top of the billing and the death rate is hidden away where most people aren't going to see it. Feels a lot like an editoral decision to keep the public in the dark and focus their attention elsewhere. Or being less cynical it's an attempt to avoid panic by not telling people how bad the situation really is, which seems misguided to me as it risks people becoming complacent.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Rately on 11 April, 2020, 10:43:02 AM
The fact they, the BBC, had Stanley Johnson on, and didn't challenge him on his previous, distasteful, ignorant and dangerous comments on Coronavirus is a disgrace.

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: sintec on 11 April, 2020, 11:47:42 AM
Quote from: Rately on 11 April, 2020, 10:43:02 AM
The fact they, the BBC, had Stanley Johnson on, and didn't challenge him on his previous, distasteful, ignorant and dangerous comments on Coronavirus is a disgrace.

Yeah I heard them quoting him all day yesterday on radio 6 until I eventually lost patience with it. I'm sure the first report quoted Stanley as saying Boris had "taken one for the team" which was particularly rage inducing. They had the good sense to select a different quote for later news reports.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 11 April, 2020, 11:50:21 AM
Quote from: Rately on 11 April, 2020, 10:33:38 AMMuch will be made of the "we are following the science" mantra of the early days
The key thing most publications aren't asking is WHICH science. It's not like all British scientists were going: keep delaying lockdown. Number 10 was paying far too much attention to behavioural science that just happened to align with its economy-first ideology.

QuoteThen you go on Twitter and see the balloons still harping on about how Brexit needs Brexited
There are at least some positive signs there — a few bellwether Brexiters have been stating outright they are fine with transition being extended, although we really need to get to the state where that's "for up to the full two years" rather than "for as little time as possible". (Some are still going with just a few weeks being enough. Nope. Two years won't be nearly enough, but perhaps during that time we can agree to another extension somehow, if we've not pissed off the EU to the extent they won't deal with us at all by then.)
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Rately on 11 April, 2020, 11:55:26 AM
Quote from: sintec on 11 April, 2020, 11:47:42 AM
Quote from: Rately on 11 April, 2020, 10:43:02 AM
The fact they, the BBC, had Stanley Johnson on, and didn't challenge him on his previous, distasteful, ignorant and dangerous comments on Coronavirus is a disgrace.

Yeah I heard them quoting him all day yesterday on radio 6 until I eventually lost patience with it. I'm sure the first report quoted Stanley as saying Boris had "taken one for the team" which was particularly rage inducing. They had the good sense to select a different quote for later news reports.

Is it any wonder the media are so compliant, and unquestioning? Distracted by the access they have to nothings like Stanly Johnson.

Much easier I suppose to craft a story, from the father of the PM, than to cover the tragedy and needlessness of one of the hundreds, before long thousands, dying each and every day, and asking some of the bloody questions that need answer by the PM and his Government.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Tiplodocus on 11 April, 2020, 12:33:05 PM
 No chance of these Muppets being held accountable after the fact if you don't start it now.

The journalists at the Daily Briefing could be asking about ventilator numbers vs targets, pre numbers vs targets, testing numbers vs targets. And what dates these will be met?

And why the actual fuck New Zealand has only  1 death vs. Our horrendous total? Smaller country, sure. But not 7000 times smaller. Tell me Matt, Boris, why is that?
Numbers don't lie.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 11 April, 2020, 01:07:00 PM
Aye. We're seeing this already.

https://medium.com/@juliovincent/prepare-for-the-ultimate-gaslighting-6a8ce3f0a0e0
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: sheridan on 11 April, 2020, 01:42:33 PM
Lessons from Ebola (https://the-parallax.com/2020/04/09/ebola-hacking-lessons-coronavirus/)

The minute you leave people out because they're too poor, or black, or Asian, or because of their immigration status, you give the virus a place to hang out, and then it'll come back. The minute you cut people out of these systems, you prolong the epidemic.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Professor Bear on 11 April, 2020, 03:44:54 PM
Quote from: Rately on 11 April, 2020, 11:55:26 AMIs it any wonder the media are so compliant, and unquestioning? Distracted by the access they have to nothings like Stanly Johnson.

They have access because Johnson is of their class, which is coincidentally also why he's entitled to airtime while the Greens can't buy their way onto BBC programming.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Rately on 11 April, 2020, 04:07:10 PM
Quote from: Professor Bear on 11 April, 2020, 03:44:54 PM
Quote from: Rately on 11 April, 2020, 11:55:26 AMIs it any wonder the media are so compliant, and unquestioning? Distracted by the access they have to nothings like Stanly Johnson.

They have access because Johnson is of their class, which is coincidentally also why he's entitled to airtime while the Greens can't buy their way onto BBC programming.

It's a disgrace. What would anybody hope to learn from somebody so out of touch?
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 11 April, 2020, 06:00:26 PM
The state of this. Absolutely vile propaganda! Nearly 1000 people die in one day due to the decisions made by this man, and this is what the Telegraph runs with. Sickening.

(https://i.imgur.com/2S4weW0.jpg)
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Professor Bear on 11 April, 2020, 08:05:10 PM
Quote from: Rately on 11 April, 2020, 04:07:10 PMIt's a disgrace. What would anybody hope to learn from somebody so out of touch?

Believe it or not, Johnson has written books - and even more surprisingly, they are not colouring books.  I will sum them up thusly: "Britain good, sharing bad."  Amazingly, this applies to both his books on eugenics social theory, and eugenics environmental philosophy.

Anyway, it's a real brain-teaser why the BBC are wheeling a eugenicist member of the public with no scientific credentials onscreen after weeks of the government insisting that we should let certain people die so everyone else can have it easier.  It's just a mystery we'll never solve.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Tjm86 on 12 April, 2020, 07:41:38 AM
Quote from: shaolin_monkey on 11 April, 2020, 06:00:26 PM
The state of this. Absolutely vile propaganda!

Thing is though, the tagline is absolutely spot on.  Johnson is very much the epitome of the health of the body politic at this present time: diseased, corrupted, totally out of touch with the nation as a whole, slowly disintegrating and taking so many others down too.

Blair famously once said that history will judge him.  The same is going to be true of Johnson and his ilk.  Unfortunately I don't think it is going to be the history of the UK but rather the history of whatever nation arises out of the ashes.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Rately on 12 April, 2020, 08:55:53 AM
I'm now seriously considering queuing at our local supermarket every day, getting there as early as possible, so I can lift all copies of The Sun, Telegraph etc. and take them all to the Gluten Free aisle and hide them behind the shelves.

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Colin YNWA on 12 April, 2020, 09:47:13 AM
Quote from: Rately on 12 April, 2020, 08:55:53 AM
I'm now seriously considering queuing at our local supermarket every day, getting there as early as possible, so I can lift all copies of The Sun, Telegraph etc. and take them all to the Gluten Free aisle and hide them behind the shelves.

There's a lot of lessons this country could learn from the way Liverpool pull together after th Hillsborough Disaster and created their 'Total Eclipse of the Sun.'
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Rately on 12 April, 2020, 10:11:24 AM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 12 April, 2020, 09:47:13 AM
Quote from: Rately on 12 April, 2020, 08:55:53 AM
I'm now seriously considering queuing at our local supermarket every day, getting there as early as possible, so I can lift all copies of The Sun, Telegraph etc. and take them all to the Gluten Free aisle and hide them behind the shelves.

There's a lot of lessons this country could learn from the way Liverpool pull together after th Hillsborough Disaster and created their 'Total Eclipse of the Sun.'

Colin, the people of Liverpool should be rightly proud they took a stand. The UK would be a much better place if we done away with it and a few other papers that that do so much psychic damage, and groom so many decent people to take their horrible headlines at face value. Generations of damage done.

Hopefully the financial losses quickly become too much, and they have to shut the bloody thing down. I'd have sympathy for those who make their livelihoods from working for it, but, seriously, you work for The Sun.

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Tjm86 on 12 April, 2020, 10:36:12 AM
Quote from: Rately on 12 April, 2020, 08:55:53 AM
I'm now seriously considering queuing at our local supermarket every day, getting there as early as possible, so I can lift all copies of The Sun, Telegraph etc. and take them all to the Gluten Free aisle and hide them behind the shelves.

See I would take them to the Toilet Roll aisle and put them on the shelves ...
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Rately on 12 April, 2020, 10:40:12 AM
Quote from: Tjm86 on 12 April, 2020, 10:36:12 AM
Quote from: Rately on 12 April, 2020, 08:55:53 AM
I'm now seriously considering queuing at our local supermarket every day, getting there as early as possible, so I can lift all copies of The Sun, Telegraph etc. and take them all to the Gluten Free aisle and hide them behind the shelves.

See I would take them to the Toilet Roll aisle and put them on the shelves ...

:lol:
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 12 April, 2020, 11:04:31 AM
Quote from: Rately on 12 April, 2020, 08:55:53 AMI'm now seriously considering queuing at our local supermarket every day, getting there as early as possible, so I can lift all copies of The Sun, Telegraph etc. and take them all to the Gluten Free aisle and hide them behind the shelves.
Bit harsh on us GFers.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Rately on 12 April, 2020, 11:16:45 AM
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 12 April, 2020, 11:04:31 AM
Quote from: Rately on 12 April, 2020, 08:55:53 AMI'm now seriously considering queuing at our local supermarket every day, getting there as early as possible, so I can lift all copies of The Sun, Telegraph etc. and take them all to the Gluten Free aisle and hide them behind the shelves.
Bit harsh on us GFers.

Apologies, IndigoPrime.

We all have to suffer during these trying times, but some will have to suffer more than others.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Blue Cactus on 12 April, 2020, 11:57:47 AM
Decided to modify this to remove my post cos I was just being a bit moany!
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 12 April, 2020, 01:18:18 PM
Quote from: Rately on 12 April, 2020, 11:16:45 AMWe all have to suffer during these trying times, but some will have to suffer more than others.
You sound like my MP: "We all have to make sacrifices." But while it's one thing ensuring that I and millions of others will get no financial support, your suggestion I might glimpse The Sun or Telegraph when looking sadly at my restricted range of crap, expensive GF food is clearly a step too far, sir.

(Seriously, forumites: never, ever go GF unless you absolutely have to for medical reasons, or are stark, raving bonkers. And if you aren't GF, please don't take GF food from stores right now, like scumbags locally have been doing, because it's "the only stuff that's left" in some cases.)
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Tjm86 on 12 April, 2020, 01:57:20 PM
I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that your local MP is a Tory?

[PS, Rately old chap, the emoticon's do not appear to be working at present.  So sorry]
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Rately on 12 April, 2020, 01:59:23 PM
Quote from: Tjm86 on 12 April, 2020, 01:57:20 PM
I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that your local MP is a Tory?

[PS, Rately old chap, the emoticon's do not appear to be working at present.  So sorry]

Just another bloody thing for me to gripe about! - insert  suitable emoticon here -
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 12 April, 2020, 02:32:25 PM
Tjm86: my MP is Ranil Jayawardena, one of those special Tories who's the offspring of migrants and seemingly hates migrants. But he'll be an MP here until he decides he doesn't want to me, unless he does something really very bad indeed. (His predecessor was better, in that he wasn't ERG-leaning, but even he had weird shit going on, like pretending to be a Christian for his entire incumbency.)
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: paddykafka on 12 April, 2020, 02:42:11 PM
Quote from: Rately on 12 April, 2020, 01:59:23 PM

[PS, Rately old chap, the emoticon's do not appear to be working at present.  So sorry]

Just another bloody thing for me to gripe about! - insert  suitable emoticon here -
[/quote]

Noticed that myself lately as well. Thought it was something to do with my laptop, or the settings on it... or just my own computer-based technical ineptitude.

Perhaps Tharg's Emoticon chip is malfunctioning?
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Hawkmumbler on 12 April, 2020, 03:58:42 PM
The entire website has had broken assets and artifacts for me since it's last update...
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Tjm86 on 12 April, 2020, 07:21:39 PM
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 12 April, 2020, 02:32:25 PM
Tjm86: my MP is Ranil Jayawardena, one of those special Tories who's the offspring of migrants and seemingly hates migrants.

Ah yes, I know the type.  Also strangely enough seem to hate UK non-migrants or rather only like certain types of UK citizens.

As for the feigned faith: please do not get me started.  We Christians have a hard enough time as it is without having to deal with those who think that the Pharisees should be role-models.

I know that in some circles I'm likely to be stoned but I've loved some of the satirical website takes on the Easter story this weekend.  In particular those where they've suggested that the police have attempted to prosecute Jesus for breaching social distancing rules, congregating in groups of more than 2 to get hammered and leaving his tomb without an appropriate reason.  All I would say is try doing that with Islam and see how long you last!
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 12 April, 2020, 08:08:33 PM
Try doing it 60 years ago in Ireland, and pretty much anywhere 200 years ago. Chrstianity's tolerance of mockery is a very recent development.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: paddykafka on 12 April, 2020, 08:57:13 PM
Did a double-take, then almost keeled over laughing, at this hilarious example of mis-spelling in a reddit post that I have just seen.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ireland/comments/fj5ezw/government_calls_for_pubs_to_shit_from_midnight/

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: sheridan on 13 April, 2020, 12:10:31 AM
Quote from: TordelBack on 12 April, 2020, 08:08:33 PM
Try doing it 60 years ago in Ireland, and pretty much anywhere 200 years ago. Chrstianity's tolerance of mockery is a very recent development.

We're not out of the woods yet (https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/stephen-fry-blasphemy-ireland-getting-worse-around-the-world-a7723631.html).
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Funt Solo on 13 April, 2020, 12:53:51 AM
Not sure Steven's comments count as mockery. Maybe righteous indignation?

Quote"Bone cancer in children? What's that about? How dare you! How dare you create a world in which there is such misery that is not our fault. It's not right. It's utterly, utterly evil. Why should I respect a capricious, mean-minded, stupid god who creates a world which is so full of injustice and pain. Because the god who created this universe (if it was created by god) is quite clearly a maniac. Utter maniac. Totally selfish."

As for Christianity being more tolerant than Islam: yer obvious irony there is that all the other religions tend to line up behind Islamic fundamentalism and support it (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C_OR3b-97Ds), on the grounds that religious intolerance is somehow a higher class of intolerance, and should be forgiven. You know: chucking urine-balloons at primary school children (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Cross_dispute) would normally be frowned upon, but ... add a bit of religion into the mix and it's all fine, somehow.

I don't mind anyone having their (entirely unfounded) beliefs in the supernatural - but it's a bit rich to go around claiming yours is better than anyone else's. Especially in public.

---

Going off topic a bit, I realize, so here's a pirate in a face mask:

(https://www.spaghettimonster.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/04/mask-eyepatch.jpg)
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: JOE SOAP on 13 April, 2020, 02:00:27 AM
Quote from: sheridan on 13 April, 2020, 12:10:31 AMWe're not out of the woods yet (https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/stephen-fry-blasphemy-ireland-getting-worse-around-the-world-a7723631.html).

Ireland's Blasphemy Law was removed by referendum from the Constitution in 2018.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/oct/27/ireland-votes-to-oust-blasphemy-ban-from-constitution
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IAMTHESYSTEM on 13 April, 2020, 11:57:32 AM
I suspect the current crisis, once over, will do nothing but harden the pro-nationalist message that is shaping the world. Self-Isolation will encourage national isolation since it is easy to say, and accurate, that globalisation helped in the spread of the disease. A virus from China that originated in Bats found the perfect host, human beings and its incubation period allowed it to flourish far beyond its natural habitat aided by Air Travel. Even in Europe, borders appeared, and that will inevitably lead to questions about the open border policy, ones that favour local or national control. Coronavirus is another nail in the coffin of the globalised world, and trust in others may prove misguided with panic buying leading to stores having to limit the amount people could take with them. It's going to be a very different world after all this, a less trusting one, despite the apparent goodwill of many. Trade will continue pretty much unaffected, but personal travel may be far more restricted than before COVID-19 struck.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: sheridan on 13 April, 2020, 01:15:52 PM
Quote from: IAMTHESYSTEM on 13 April, 2020, 11:57:32 AM
A virus from China that originated in Bats found the perfect host,

Is that true?  Last I head that was just one of the theories - didn't realise it had been confirmed.  Source?
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: MacabreMagpie on 13 April, 2020, 02:52:48 PM
Quote from: sheridan on 13 April, 2020, 01:15:52 PM
Quote from: IAMTHESYSTEM on 13 April, 2020, 11:57:32 AM
A virus from China that originated in Bats found the perfect host,

Is that true?  Last I head that was just one of the theories - didn't realise it had been confirmed.  Source?

I'd say "leading theory" rather than confirm. Not sure you really can confirm something like that.

"Scientists say it is highly likely that the virus came from bats but first passed through an intermediary animal in the same way that another coronavirus – the 2002 Sars outbreak – moved from horseshoe bats to cat-like civets before infecting humans."

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/13/how-did-the-coronavirus-start-where-did-it-come-from-how-did-it-spread-humans-was-it-really-bats-pangolins-wuhan-animal-market
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IAMTHESYSTEM on 13 April, 2020, 03:03:09 PM
Well, here's the Lancet a Medical journal that sites China, Wuhan City as the likely source of the COVID-19 Outbreak.


https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(20)30230-9/fulltext
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: sheridan on 13 April, 2020, 06:26:41 PM
Quote from: IAMTHESYSTEM on 13 April, 2020, 03:03:09 PM
Well, here's the Lancet a Medical journal that sites China, Wuhan City as the likely source of the COVID-19 Outbreak.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(20)30230-9/fulltext

No mention of bats at all in that article...
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IAMTHESYSTEM on 13 April, 2020, 06:41:04 PM
Quote from: sheridan on 13 April, 2020, 06:26:41 PM
Quote from: IAMTHESYSTEM on 13 April, 2020, 03:03:09 PM
Well, here's the Lancet a Medical journal that sites China, Wuhan City as the likely source of the COVID-19 Outbreak.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/laninf/article/PIIS1473-3099(20)30230-9/fulltext

No mention of bats at all in that article...

Here is the Science Daily that reports Bats may have been the host animals of the disease, but some intermediate host either Pangolians or some civets creature were other possible candidates for transmission. I read there were bushmeat markets involved that sold various animals as food.
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2020/03/200317175442.htm

 
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: JOE SOAP on 13 April, 2020, 09:56:01 PM
How China's "Bat Woman" Hunted Down Viruses from SARS to the New Coronavirus

Wuhan-based virologist Shi Zhengli has identified dozens of deadly SARS-like viruses in bat caves, and she warns there are more out there


The genomic sequence of the virus—now officially called SARS-CoV-2 because it is related to the SARS pathogen—was 96 percent identical to that of a coronavirus the researchers had identified in horseshoe bats in Yunnan, they reported in a paper published last month in Nature. "It's crystal clear that bats, once again, are the natural reservoir," says Daszak, who was not involved in the study.

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/how-chinas-bat-woman-hunted-down-viruses-from-sars-to-the-new-coronavirus1//[url]


Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 14 April, 2020, 10:11:38 AM
This is a long read, but it's a great reminder of the lethal decision making of the UK government since January.

https://bylinetimes.com/2020/04/11/a-national-scandal-a-timeline-of-the-uk-governments-woeful-response-to-the-coronavirus-crisis/

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 14 April, 2020, 10:43:44 AM
It's quite hard not to conclude that the UK government realised that the public wouldn't wear 250-500K dead as the price for herd immunity and decided instead to say all the right things about changing policy, but not actually do any of them.

Meanwhile, the WHO is saying that recovering from the infection is no guarantee of immunity (https://www.cnbc.com/2020/04/13/who-officials-say-its-unclear-whether-recovered-coronavirus-patients-are-immune-to-second-infection.html) which makes the entire 'herd immunity' argument irrelevant.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: sheridan on 14 April, 2020, 12:08:14 PM
Coronavirus: One in five deaths now linked to virus (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-52278825)

...but something-something about deaths from flu each year, or something (luckily that little misinformation campaign has stayed away from this forum).
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Funt Solo on 14 April, 2020, 08:33:49 PM
I assume the Tories liked the idea of "herd immunity", because it strongly implies that the populace are cattle.

I'm reminded of Griff Rhys-Jones (no, wait) Jacob Rees-Mogg and his (lies) that Glasgow had as high a death rate as the British concentration camps during the Boer War. He probably thinks it's true because he imagines Glasgow is a festering sore of scabies-ridden proletariat tenement dwellers. Scunthorpe.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Tiplodocus on 14 April, 2020, 09:25:18 PM
I'm assuming that end of this, a simple comparison of average number of deaths in 2015 to 2019 compared to the same periods in 2020 will give us a pretty horrific picture of the true scale of this and the gross negligence of this in charge.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: sheridan on 14 April, 2020, 09:34:54 PM
Quote from: Tiplodocus on 14 April, 2020, 09:25:18 PM
I'm assuming that end of this, a simple comparison of average number of deaths in 2015 to 2019 compared to the same periods in 2020 will give us a pretty horrific picture of the true scale of this and the gross negligence of this in charge.

No need to wait.  The Office of National Statistics (https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths) has you covered.

(I've highlighted a few key numbers)

The provisional number of deaths registered in England and Wales in the week ending 3 April 2020 (Week 14) was 16,387; this represents an increase of 5,246 deaths registered compared with the previous week (Week 13) and 6,082 more than the five-year average.
    Of the deaths registered in Week 14, 3,475 mentioned "novel coronavirus (COVID-19)", which was 21.2% of all deaths; this compares with 539 (4.8% of all deaths) in Week 13.
    In London, nearly half (46.6%) of deaths registered in Week 14 involved COVID-19; the West Midlands also had a high proportion of COVID-19 deaths, accounting for 22.1% of deaths registered in this region.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 15 April, 2020, 04:35:13 AM
Oh dear god. What has the Curious Orange done now?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/trump-who-funding-white-house-press-briefing-today-coronavirus-a9465401.html

How much more insane can he get before someone takes him out?
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 15 April, 2020, 08:44:27 AM
You have to think that the UK's mortality figures are the purest example of statistical distortion in the service of outright lies.  About half of Ireland's C-19 total deaths - that's HALF OF ALL C-19 DEATHS for those down the back - are from Nursing Home/residential care environments (and that's set to rise dramatically, and it's a f**king disgrace).  But in the UK it's about 300 recorded Nursing Home deaths out of over 12,000 total?  Something simply isn't right there, and it has to be a deliberate distortion - or a calculated omission. 
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 15 April, 2020, 08:50:20 AM
Quote from: shaolin_monkey on 15 April, 2020, 04:35:13 AM
Oh dear god. What has the Curious Orange done now?

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/trump-who-funding-white-house-press-briefing-today-coronavirus-a9465401.html

How much more insane can he get before someone takes him out?

A solid election campaign play that seems fully in line with about half of what I read on social media, which blames the WHO for, if not directly engineering the virus in cooperation with a Wuhan bioweapons lab, at least deliberately spreading it globally on the orders/in the employ of either China, Big Pharma or Bill Gates. 

Straight out of the Boris 'blame the EU for us not listening to them' playbook.

Those fat fucks aren't as stupid as they look/sound/act/actually are.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 15 April, 2020, 08:54:19 AM
Quote from: TordelBack on 15 April, 2020, 08:44:27 AM
Something simply isn't right there, and it has to be a deliberate distortion - or a calculated omission.

Can't track it down now, but I saw a tweet yesterday from a proper reporter that funeral directors they've been speaking to are saying the 'extra' burials that are most likely COVID-related are running a 5:1 ratio between those coming in from care homes compared to hospitals.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Old Tankie on 15 April, 2020, 09:22:49 AM
We live in extra care housing, approximately 100 of us, carers in and out all day. We have the virus in the building and we have had deaths but we are not sure what people have died from. There is no panic here, we are just doing our best to survive with the help of great staff.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 15 April, 2020, 09:52:26 AM
Hang in there Tankie.  Thinking of you dude.  I have two friends who work in this sector also - massively concerned for both of them, and one has also reported the virus is present.



Heading for 40,000 deaths - the world leader!  Yay, go us. 

Dr Anthony Costello,  Director of the Institute for Global Health, University College London:

"It's a public health catastrophe."

"If you have 12,000 now and add on half again for community deaths, that's 18,000, if you have the same deaths on the way down as the way up, that makes 36,000, and we haven't included care home deaths yet.  So we're heading up towards over 40,000 deaths.  That wold make us 200 times higher than Korea, and it could easily put us in 1st place for the world, although I think the US could rival us. So this is the worst public health catastrophe in the last century, and you have to ask questions about why it has happened."


Dr Allyson Pollock, Director of the Institute of Health and Society, Newcastle University:

On care homes:

"It's the final irony that the government said it was going to shield older and vulnerable people, and it is the one group we know absolutely hasn't been shielded or protected.  We know from the rest of Europe that about half of all the deaths have occurred in care homes, and its very likely we will see a similar picture here, with Scotland and UK reporting increasing deaths across care homes."


Dr Rosalyn Moran, Reader in Theoretical Neurobiology, King's College London:

"In our modelling we saw numbers around 49,000."



That's from the first 5 minutes of the COVID report 14/4/20.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XY3sEIB7pJY
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 15 April, 2020, 10:13:53 AM
Dr Rosalyn Moran, Reader in Theoretical Neurobiology, King's College London:

"There could be three to up to ten subsequent waves... it'll look from January to now again... potentially there could be the same number of cases again without contact trace and quarantine."

Dr Bharat Pankhania, Senior Clinical Lecturer, Exeter Medical School:

"We have made no effort to gather an army of people who are going to do contact tracing.  I see no evidence of it.  Either we are going to do it, or we are not going to do it.  At the moment it looks like the government does not want to do it."


Dear god.

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Rately on 15 April, 2020, 11:37:52 AM
This is just frightening, horrendous stuff.

The numbers are just terrifying, Shaolin_Monkey.

I fear that the Government are just hoping for some miracle, as the more I read about their handling of the situation, the clearer it becomes that they made an horrendous initial decision, and are now just flailing from disaster to disaster. There is no excuse. They knew it was coming, and they gambled peoples lives.

To read that they have been offered support by the EU. Private business etc. and basically told them to get stuffed, I mean, how can any of this Governments ministers continue. When you see how they have let so many of us down, surely at some stage it is a resigning matter for most, if not all of them.

Sadly, they have so little empathy and morals, I'd frankly be surprised.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 15 April, 2020, 11:48:08 AM
Thinking of you too, Tankie, although you're clearly a tough old bastard so any concern is probably wasted. 

This is some fecking mess, and I don't think we know the half of what's coming over the next year. 

For my own little corner of the apocalypse, my old man has (mild dose (easy for me to say)) chemo session scheduled for Thursday for the first time since this kicked off, and I'm bricking it - my 77yr-old mam, who is now his sole carer 24-7, doesn't want him to go in because she's convinced he'll get C-19 and bring it home to kill the two of them (his mental state is hopeless, he gets lost every time he goes to the hospital and he's as likely to end up licking the floors as he is washing his hands and keeping his distance - and there's no way they'll let me go in with him), but having screamed at them for weeks to stay isolated, I'm now trying to explain that the situation isn't going to improve any time soon and while he might get away with postponing one session, what about the next, and the next?

I've almost convinced her that we need to be led in his by the oncologist himself, who has to have serious infection-control systems in place if he's still bringing out-patients in, but he's apparently uncontactable 'on annual leave', which I can't help thinking is admin-speak for quarantined or redeployed: what sort of doctor is on his holliers in the middle of this?

It's a good job I don't have much hair left, I'd have it pulled it out by now.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 15 April, 2020, 12:25:38 PM
Quote from: Rately on 15 April, 2020, 11:37:52 AM
To read that they have been offered support by the EU. Private business etc. and basically told them to get stuffed, I mean, how can any of this Governments ministers continue. When you see how they have let so many of us down, surely at some stage it is a resigning matter for most, if not all of them.

Have you seen the polls?

As much as I despise the term "mainstream media", it is, almost without exception, failing to hold the government to account on this, preferring to support the main government narrative with some mild criticism around the edges, as if there are occasional supply chain blips, or problems are something all governments are experiencing.

It's quite telling that the government has refused to make any minister available to Channel 4 News for eight days running.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: sheridan on 15 April, 2020, 12:40:08 PM
Quote from: Rately on 15 April, 2020, 11:37:52 AM
This is just frightening, horrendous stuff.

The numbers are just terrifying, Shaolin_Monkey.

I fear that the Government are just hoping for some miracle, as the more I read about their handling of the situation, the clearer it becomes that they made an horrendous initial decision, and are now just flailing from disaster to disaster. There is no excuse. They knew it was coming, and they gambled peoples lives.

To read that they have been offered support by the EU. Private business etc. and basically told them to get stuffed, I mean, how can any of this Governments ministers continue. When you see how they have let so many of us down, surely at some stage it is a resigning matter for most, if not all of them.

Sadly, they have so little empathy and morals, I'd frankly be surprised.




That's what you might think - that they wouldn't be able to get away with it, but only half the people seem to be paying attention.  Following taken from the same BBC Have Your Say thread.






Comment number175. Posted byAndreon
2 minutes ago
The "government" has moved past the "containment" stage and is entering the "cover up" stage


Comment number174. Posted byMr Mugwumpon
2 minutes ago
Boris is back, just watch how the death figures now drop with his hand on the tiller. Thank God we do not have socialism making this worse than it need be.




Comment number221. Posted byChopperon
32 minutes ago
?? what a great leader Boris is ?? showing the opposition,the eu & the world how it's done ??




Comment number41. Posted byScubadooon
1 hour ago
Strange to have a bulletin board for this story when so many other important topics and stories have been in the news these last few days. Has it been a deliberate strategy to deny a voice on such things as our German friends givong us 60 ventilators and the govt seemingly deliberately staying out of EU procurement on no less tgan 3 occasions fir PPE? #theyneedusmorethanweneedthem?



Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Rately on 15 April, 2020, 12:49:58 PM
Jim / Sheridan,

It is a horrible failure by the media. Surely shaping up to be the greatest scandal in British history, and they meekly line up, one by one, to lob softballs at Ministers, who in most circumstances can't even answer the soft questions competently, or coherently.

When you witness Piers Morgan, who I'm no fan of, tearing apart Ministers every morning on the TV, you have to ask - Are we living in Bizarro world? When the mornings soft news and entertainment show is asking the hard questions, and harrying people for answers, while the rest of the Press are in a state of paralysis... So bloody frustrating.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Old Tankie on 15 April, 2020, 01:08:52 PM
Thanks for your concern guys, stay safe everyone and don't take chances if you can help it.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Rately on 15 April, 2020, 01:13:39 PM
Quote from: Old Tankie on 15 April, 2020, 01:08:52 PM
Thanks for your concern guys, stay safe everyone and don't take chances if you can help it.

Tankie, meant to reply to you earlier. Stay safe.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 15 April, 2020, 01:22:17 PM
Quote from: Rately on 15 April, 2020, 12:49:58 PMWhen you witness Piers Morgan, who I'm no fan of, tearing apart Ministers every morning on the TV, you have to ask - Are we living in Bizarro world?
The thing people forget is Morgan isn't stupid. He loves to be the guy people hate — but only to a certain extent. He's a populist too. So this was a piece of highly targeted venom. It showed to me that he could be a great journalist if he so chose to be. He decides otherwise almost all of the time.

As for the Tories, the last poll I saw had them on 54%. Even if the death count is quite high, it's going to require a miracle with that kind of lead for them not to win the next GE — not least given that the Lib Dems are a busted flush and there's no-one to replace them. (Labour should be able to flip a bunch of seats in London, and a few in the south, but even now the Lib Dems remain the main alternative to the Tories in a large chunk of the south that Labour will have a hell of a time trying to win.)
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Rately on 15 April, 2020, 01:35:03 PM
We live in frightening times.

If Corbyn, by some miracle, had been elected, I've no doubt the media would be frothing at the mouth with vitriol if he was handling this situation even half as badly as the Tory Government is.

Have no doubt the Tories will win the next election. It terrifies me that even with this shotshow, they are almost certain to hold onto power.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Tjm86 on 15 April, 2020, 02:15:14 PM
Quote from: TordelBack on 15 April, 2020, 08:50:20 AM

A solid election campaign play that seems fully in line with about half of what I read on social media, ....

You know what p***es me off most about social media?  I keep hearing about all of these bat-s*** crazy theories and stories that people keep sharing but I never actually hear any of them.  The best I've managed is reports of Eammon Holmes not really but sort of vaguely denying that he confused people with claims that the link between 5G and Covid-19 might be useful to the government  (which is completely understandable as computers and people can both get 'viruses' so that must be what has been spreading it ...)
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: paddykafka on 15 April, 2020, 02:51:22 PM
Quote from: Old Tankie on 15 April, 2020, 09:22:49 AM
We live in extra care housing, approximately 100 of us, carers in and out all day. We have the virus in the building and we have had deaths but we are not sure what people have died from. There is no panic here, we are just doing our best to survive with the help of great staff.

My thoughts are with you, too, Tankie. Hope you and yours will all be okay.

My sister works in a Nursing Home back here in the Emerald Isle, so I'm always fearful of getting 'that call'. It would appear that they are at least on top of things there for the moment now, though no thanks to the arsehole management running the place. They initially didn't see the need for the provision of PPE, as there was no evidence that anyone in the home had the virus at the time. I strongly urged my Sis that she and her colleagues should insist on being provided with this equipment as, surely it made sense to take all precautions to limit the possibility of being infected in the first place. In any event, it would appear now that all necessary steps and precautions have been taken, full PPE is being provided, and all staff are having their temperature checked twice a day before entering and leaving the building. But given what inept shit-heads the so-called bosses running the place are like - and I know this from talking to her previously - the number of deaths happening in Nursing Homes comes as absolutely no surprise to me. The same dumb-fuck mind-set and refusal to listen is clearly replicated amongst management in other similar settings throughout the country.

Stay safe, Old Tankie and all the best.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 15 April, 2020, 02:58:08 PM
Quote from: Rately on 15 April, 2020, 12:49:58 PM
Surely shaping up to be the greatest scandal in British history...

Is it, though?  In addition to almost certainly following Trump's anti-WHO line, I think the whole clusterfuck is going to be successfully spun into a tirade against EU 'Health Policy' (?) and open borders, and how if only Obama Corbyn and the treacherous remoaners hadn't frustrated the Will of the People for so long the the virus-riddled spics and wops could have been held at Calais in a latter-day Battle of Britain, but Boris was forbidden from unleashing the metaphorical 601st Squadron of Sovereignty Regained on Merkel and Barnier's unwashed zombie hordes, not to mention the NHS being short the £350 million a week that Europe stole, and this is the result.

Anyway more dead burdens people now means less future infections, so a stronger re-start for the economy and that's the Conservatives for you, the party of taking hard decisions in order to balance the books.

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: paddykafka on 15 April, 2020, 03:01:41 PM
Just wanted to wish my best to yourself and your folks as well, Tordels. Cheers and fingers crossed for them both.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Rately on 15 April, 2020, 03:05:46 PM
Quote from: TordelBack on 15 April, 2020, 02:58:08 PM
Quote from: Rately on 15 April, 2020, 12:49:58 PM
Surely shaping up to be the greatest scandal in British history...

Is it, though?  In addition to almost certainly following Trump's anti-WHO line, I think the whole clusterfuck is going to be successfully spun into a tirade against EU 'Health Policy' (?) and open borders, and how if only Obama Corbyn and the treacherous remoaners hadn't frustrated the Will of the People for so long the the virus-riddled spics and wops could have been held at Calais in a latter-day Battle of Britain, but Boris was forbidden from unleashing the metaphorical 601st Squadron of Sovereignty Regained on Merkel and Barnier's unwashed zombie hordes, not to mention the NHS being short the £350 million a week that Europe stole, and this is the result.

Anyway more dead burdens people now means less future infections, so a stronger re-start for the economy and that's the Conservatives for you, the party of taking hard decisions in order to balance the books.

They surely can't spin this, the dead, the mental health fallout, the long term effects on our Health and social care staff never mind the generation of kids who will grow up in circumstances the likes of which we only ever imagined or were witness to in fiction. At some point, you can't spin, and the hope would be an almighty reckoning for some of this Government. I have been let down before, I probably will again, but I won't forget or forgive the shambles, and those who were part of it, and those who chose to try and defend it.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 15 April, 2020, 03:08:30 PM
Quote from: paddykafka on 15 April, 2020, 03:01:41 PM
Just wanted to wish my best to yourself and your folks as well, Tordels. Cheers and fingers crossed for them both.

Cheers Paddy I don't envy your missus - the nursing home gig is a rough one at the best of times, and these aren't those.

Anyway, just got good news (of a sort - well, I'll take what I can get) on that front: finally got through to someone (although nit the man himself), chemo postponed until June, apparently has been going well enough that a missed session or two is likely to be less of a risk than a visit to Virus Central.  It'll then be handled in the consultant's own office away from the active hospital.  So someone is thinking, at least.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: von Boom on 15 April, 2020, 03:10:59 PM
Stay well Tankie.

All the best to you and family, TB. I hope it goes well for you all.

I hope everyone on here is keeping as well as can be. Cheers all.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Rately on 15 April, 2020, 03:12:43 PM
Quote from: TordelBack on 15 April, 2020, 03:08:30 PM
Quote from: paddykafka on 15 April, 2020, 03:01:41 PM
Just wanted to wish my best to yourself and your folks as well, Tordels. Cheers and fingers crossed for them both.

Cheers Paddy I don't envy your missus - the nursing home gig is a rough one at the best of times, and these aren't those.

Anyway, just got good news (of a sort - well, I'll take what I can get) on that front: finally got through to someone (although nit the man himself), chemo postponed until June, apparently has been going well enough that a missed session or two is likely to be less of a risk than a visit to Virus Central.  It'll then be handled in the consultant's own office away from the active hospital.  So someone is thinking, at least.

That's great news! Hopefully alleviates some of the stress.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 15 April, 2020, 03:22:16 PM
Quote from: Rately on 15 April, 2020, 03:05:46 PMI won't forget or forgive the shambles, and those who were part of it, and those who chose to try and defend it.

I really hope you're right, Rately, but there seems to be so much room for excuses from international comparisons and marketable blame.  Here in Ireland I hope to feck that it's the final wake-up call for reforming and resourcing our two-tier health service, but having just watched the two traditional parties manoeuvring happily back into bed together I have no optimism on that score.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Rately on 15 April, 2020, 03:34:51 PM
Quote from: TordelBack on 15 April, 2020, 03:22:16 PM
Quote from: Rately on 15 April, 2020, 03:05:46 PMI won't forget or forgive the shambles, and those who were part of it, and those who chose to try and defend it.

I really hope you're right, Rately, but there seems to be so much room for excuses from international comparisons and marketable blame.  Here in Ireland I hope to feck that it's the final wake-up call for reforming and resourcing our two-tier health service, but having just watched the two traditional parties manoeuvring happily back into bed together I have no optimism on that score.

Couldn't agree with you more, lad. The Assembly needs a good boot up the hole.

Robin Swann just told the Assembly that the British Government did not make him aware of the European Procurement Scheme for PPE for frontline medical staff. Someone asked if he would have used it, and he said he would seek help from all sources.

Disgraceful. I think long past time NI approach the EU, and Unionist / Loyalist anger etc be damned, because lives are more important than squabbling over who we get help from, whether it be the EU or the British Army.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: paddykafka on 15 April, 2020, 03:36:02 PM
Glad to hear your good news, Tordelback. Cheers for now.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 15 April, 2020, 03:36:54 PM
They will spin it. The right-wing press is already doubling down on the heroic Boris Johnson, and relegating the death count to a subhead, if it's even mentioned. The scandal is being ignored, as media parrots the UK government's line that the NHS is responsible for the problems in privatised care homes (?!). We're in a properly fucked state now AND in the future at this rate.

And be mindful the Tories now have a massive amount of wiggle room. They are polling 54% — with Labour on ~29 and the Lib Dems basically dead. For anything other than a Tory majority, we are going to need the kind of political shift that has never been seen in modern history, which will at the very least require the non-Con/BXP/DUP parties allying to some extent, the Lib Dems to regain some electoral heft, and probably an admission no-one's getting their claws into the SNP's Scottish seats.

Clearly, we aren't living in normal times. If we were, this government would have probably already fallen.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Tjm86 on 15 April, 2020, 03:48:01 PM
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 15 April, 2020, 03:36:54 PM
They will spin it. The right-wing press is already doubling down on the heroic Boris Johnson, and relegating the death count to a subhead, if it's even mentioned.

You sure about that?  Everything I'm seeing at the moment is exactly the opposite.  There seems a growing awareness of the discrepancy between hospital death rates and ONS figures (if you want to be really terrified, visit the ONS website and have a gander!).  Even Piers Morgan and LBC are getting in on the act.

The current emerging picture is that actually the government doesn't have a Scooby about the current state of the pandemic.  The speed with which they tried to shut down Starmer's suggestion that it might be some idea of how to get out of this mess is probably the best indication of current government 'thinking' about what is going on.

Remember how we once laughed at the idea of a Johnson led government?
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Bolt-01 on 15 April, 2020, 03:56:08 PM
Speaking as someone who actually works with NHS stats - nobody really knows what is going on. The reporting is being revised almost daily leading to extremely limited comparisons being possible.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Tjm86 on 15 April, 2020, 06:32:12 PM
It's crazy isn't it.  I mean the UK is supposed to be one of the more advanced nations of the world (and I use that word highly advisedly!).  It is supposedly highly technocratic and data driven.  More than anything though this situation has revealed the reality of this myth.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: paddykafka on 15 April, 2020, 06:56:40 PM
Confirmation of what I spoke of in an earlier post.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/views/analysis/aine-kennystaff-say-nursing-homes-did-too-little-too-late-994039.html

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 15 April, 2020, 08:11:59 PM
Quote from: Tjm86 on 15 April, 2020, 06:32:12 PMIt is supposedly highly technocratic and data driven.  More than anything though this situation has revealed the reality of this myth.
It wasn't a myth. This was the case. Then ideologues keen on bluster and bullshit above everything else got their hands on the steering wheel.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: paddykafka on 16 April, 2020, 02:01:39 PM
An interesting perspective, helpful advice and words of wisdom from NASA Astronaut Jessica Meir.

https://www.space.com/stephen-colbert-calls-space-station-astronaut-jessica-meir.html?utm_source=notification

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 16 April, 2020, 02:06:02 PM
Much needed public inquiry into government handling of Coronavirus, especially considering the projected 49,000 deaths in the U.K. (Estimated at least 18,000 to date not inc. care homes).

Takes thirty seconds to sign.

Better than sitting on your hands.


https://www.marchforchange.uk/coronavirus_inquiry
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 16 April, 2020, 03:54:41 PM
Quote from: shaolin_monkey on 16 April, 2020, 02:06:02 PM
...the projected 49,000 deaths in the U.K...

So given the uncertainties concerning community and care home deaths that's heading towards twice the deaths of the entire Blitz. And that's with current lockdown measures. Almost unimaginable suffering, but what sort of national myth will it foster in today's toddlers?
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Tjm86 on 16 April, 2020, 04:50:56 PM
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 15 April, 2020, 08:11:59 PM
Quote from: Tjm86 on 15 April, 2020, 06:32:12 PMIt is supposedly highly technocratic and data driven.  More than anything though this situation has revealed the reality of this myth.
It wasn't a myth. This was the case. Then ideologues keen on bluster and bullshit above everything else got their hands on the steering wheel.

Fair point.  This is one of the reasons why I've been so dubious about the "we're just following the science" blather.  Let's face it, 5 minutes on Cummings' blog is enough to show how twisted the science can get in his hands.  The Climate-change-denial brigade is slowly starting to make a lot more sense in terms of their ability to take sensible scientific work and turn it into something surreal!
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: paddykafka on 16 April, 2020, 05:28:30 PM
Absolute genius!

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/martyn-turner-1.4229854
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: sheridan on 17 April, 2020, 01:24:35 AM
Quote from: TordelBack on 16 April, 2020, 03:54:41 PM
Quote from: shaolin_monkey on 16 April, 2020, 02:06:02 PM
...the projected 49,000 deaths in the U.K...

So given the uncertainties concerning community and care home deaths that's heading towards twice the deaths of the entire Blitz. And that's with current lockdown measures. Almost unimaginable suffering, but what sort of national myth will it foster in today's toddlers?

Good question - the smogs in the 1950s led to the Clean Air Acts.  Except more people die from pollution each year now but barely any fuss is made of it.  So as long as people still believe the Blitz killed more people than die this year (whatever the actual facts are) then there'll be no repurcussions.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 17 April, 2020, 11:17:22 AM
If I'm reading this right, this is confirmation that doctors have been asked to only record those tested while alive as dying from COVID-19, and that untested deaths be left untested, and recorded as something different, such as pneumonia.

https://goodlawproject.org/covid-19-deaths/

Here's a copy of the guidance, from a link in the webpage:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/12msB_73qgmY2ZQwsUvkPyyEsFxo4kYNc/view?usp=drivesdk
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Eamonn Clarke on 17 April, 2020, 07:58:08 PM
The whole subject of verification of death, certification, and cremation forms is complex and has been subject to rapidly changing interpretation of the Coronavirus act changes.

In Norfolk the coroner has issued clear guidance that Covid 19 is acceptable as a cause of death even without testing, which we largely don't have in general practice. What coroners don't like is use of the word "probable" particularly in part 1a of the MCCD. Coroners quite rightly demand certainty from doctors. So you might put pneumonia as 1a secondary to probable Covid 19 as 1b.

That's Norfolk though and what has happened is that different regions have issued their own interpretation/guidance based on their reading of some understandably hasty legislation. I have seen the letter that the British Medical Association has written to the under secretary for health asking for clarity and national rather than regional guidance on this issue. It will surprise no-one on this forum to learn that there has been no reply from the vacuum at the heart of our elected government.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 18 April, 2020, 01:35:40 PM
Thanks for the clarification Eamonn.

If you've been struggling to follow the ventilator fiasco, this thread from Peter Foster, the Public Policy Editor at the FT, is a fascinating but horrifying read:

https://twitter.com/pmdfoster/status/1251434219139665920?s=21
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 18 April, 2020, 02:12:54 PM
In short:

We know better!
*shitstorm ensues*
*govt pivots*
*govt blames companies that had worked to govt's own guidance*
We had always been at war with Eastasia!
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 18 April, 2020, 03:29:40 PM
Dept of Health confirms another 880 CV19 deaths in the UK, taking the total over 15,000.

Remember that these numbers don't include care home deaths or people who died at home. In the European countries where they have recorded this data, hospital/elsewhere deaths run about 50/50, so there's probably not much change out of 30,000 in the real figure.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 19 April, 2020, 09:54:41 AM
Here's a non-paywall version of the recent Times article describing the 'lost' 38 days.

We've covered a lot of this in this very forum, but it's good to have it in one place, and is still a blood-chilling read:

https://archive.is/20200418182037/https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/coronavirus-38-days-when-britain-sleepwalked-into-disaster-hq3b9tlgh
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 19 April, 2020, 10:49:41 AM
Some positive news, where we can all take action!

HELP KINGS COLLEGE LONDON TRACK THE VIRUS!

Just because the government is slow in tracking this damn virus, doesn't mean the rest of us have to be.

Scientists agree that data is the most important tool in tackling the pandemic. As the government is doing sod all about collecting data, how about helping King's College collect it instead?

They've got 2.3 million contributors already. It takes one minute a day - just follow this link!!


https://covid.joinzoe.com/
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 19 April, 2020, 03:23:51 PM
A superb thread from Dr John Cook, who uses the same tools to analyse the psychology of COVID-19 science denial as he does on climate science denial.

A fascinating read, and an inoculation against the fallacious arguments going around at the moment.

https://twitter.com/johnfocook/status/1251871023370305536?s=21
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Mardroid on 19 April, 2020, 03:26:20 PM
Quote from: sheridan on 26 March, 2020, 06:43:21 PM
Quote from: Mardroid on 26 March, 2020, 05:57:39 PM
Just found out our work laptops are ready for pick-up tomorrow so we can work from home! We can take a monitor and a mouse too.

Security is to be informed in case we appear to be looting.  :lol:
Lucky you - we had to provide our own mouses / mice!

Yes, they've been good to us that way. I didn't actually take an extra screen in the end since I don't have my own transport*. My rucksack just wouldn't accommodate it. Not even Bagman**. I also didn't take a mouse since I have one at home. I used a HDMI cable to link my laptop to my TV and use that instead. It worked pretty well.

Oh, after one day of home work, they put us on Furlough leave, so basically I'm on fully paid holiday. I was informed recently we have another 3 weeks, and they reckon after that we'll likely be working from home for much of the rest of this year... not that I mind that.


* A kick scooter doesn't count in these circumstances.

** He has proven very useful for shopping during this period. Since I foot it when I shop, I need to rely on my rucksacks, Bagman and, um, Regular-Floppy-Sack-Man***. A couple of times I've ended up using two if there are a few things, one on my chest one on my back. I must look a right wally walking down the road like that. We have a couple of other people with cars who pick up stuff for us with their own shopping, (they keep a safe distance when dropping it off) which is very helpful, but don't want to rely on that all the time. Besides it's an excuse for me to go out. (I'm careful. I'm talking once or twice a week, and I try to keep my distance from others.)

*** He is strictly utilitarian but quite a trooper in his own way.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Mardroid on 19 April, 2020, 03:35:19 PM
Quote from: von Boom on 26 March, 2020, 06:41:58 PM
Quote from: Mardroid on 26 March, 2020, 05:57:39 PM
Just found out our work laptops are ready for pick-up tomorrow so we can work from home! We can take a monitor and a mouse too.

Security is to be informed in case we appear to be looting.  :lol:
Surely there can be no confusion.  :)
(https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fi.ytimg.com%2Fvi%2FJUlzOb1v4tw%2Fhqdefault.jpg&f=1&nofb=1)

Heh. While I was there a security guard accompanied me the whole time. He was a nice friendly guy and he told me that it was just to check what I took to note down, but he was there the whole time and didn't write anything.

I don't blame him personally as I know he was just following instructions, but it was a bit much and made me rush more than I'd have liked. Oh and he didn't keep to the 2 metres rule either, even helping me open my sack so I could fit the laptop in. Nice of him, but a bit too nice under the circumstances, I'd think you'd agree. I'd have managed.

I'm not that worried for myself as I reckon I'd cope with the virus okay, but I live with two people in the vulnerable category, so I was a little bemused.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Mardroid on 19 April, 2020, 03:39:00 PM
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 26 March, 2020, 07:33:35 PM
Anyone working from home, please take care to:

- Not overdo hours. Make a schedule that's close to your standard one
- Take regular breaks
- Where possible, get a decent chair — sit at a dining chair and your back and bum will hate you

I've been using an old dining room chair and it is a bit hard on the botty. Literally. I invested in a nice office chair which arrived last week. Unfortunately they forgot to pack the spring washers, so I've another delivery to wait for, but the company were quick to respond.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 19 April, 2020, 04:04:12 PM
Just a quick aside, and in no way COVID-19 related:

QuoteSince I foot it when I shop, I need to rely on my rucksacks, Bagman and, um, Regular-Floppy-Sack-Man***

Do you leave the grenades on Bagman? Just wondered if it might help with the social distancing...
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Funt Solo on 19 April, 2020, 04:24:56 PM
How teachers feel. (https://www.tiktok.com/@makeshift.macaroni/video/6811322581883440390)
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 19 April, 2020, 05:08:22 PM
How everyone feels, surely.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Mardroid on 19 April, 2020, 05:30:51 PM
Quote from: shaolin_monkey on 19 April, 2020, 04:04:12 PM
Just a quick aside, and in no way COVID-19 related:

QuoteSince I foot it when I shop, I need to rely on my rucksacks, Bagman and, um, Regular-Floppy-Sack-Man***

Do you leave the grenades on Bagman? Just wondered if it might help with the social distancing...

Heh! There's an idea...

No, Egg-man and Susan* currently reside in one of my clothes drawers.

* I was thinking of calling the second grenade 'Colin' but it occurred to me, why should all my accoutrements be male?  I was thinking of going for an egg or a bomb based pun but I think I'll stick with 'Susan'. Despite her explosive nature when primed, she's a shy girl at heart who doesn't like to come out of her shell.

Just don't ask me which is which.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: paddykafka on 19 April, 2020, 06:12:57 PM
I was extremely relieved to hear back, from my oldest and dearest friend of over forty years - and resident in Japan for a long time now - that he and his family are all okay. He told me that the government over there has declared a state of emergency but aside from that, not much else. (Apparently, the prime minister, Shinzo Abe has given instructions that two face masks will be issued per family. So if your family is limited to just two members then you're sorted. My friend informed me that this announcement was made almost a month ago and that the masks are expected at any time.)

To say that I am worried for my friend and his family is an understatement.

https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/world/japan-facing-catastrophe-in-virus-fight-994752.html



Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: sheridan on 19 April, 2020, 06:14:50 PM
Quote from: Mardroid on 19 April, 2020, 03:26:20 PM

** He has proven very useful for shopping during this period. Since I foot it when I shop, I need to rely on my rucksacks, Bagman and, um, Regular-Floppy-Sack-Man***. A couple of times I've ended up using two if there are a few things, one on my chest one on my back. I must look a right wally walking down the road like that.
Sounds like the Nort G.I.s in their base on the moon (or nu-earth).  I had a look to see if I could see reference pictures online, but having the director of Moon associated with the Rogue Trooper film make it a tad difficult to find...
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Tjm86 on 19 April, 2020, 07:07:37 PM
Ah, you're thinking of the Colonel Kovert mission circa Prog 351.  ["Walking on the Moon" cover tagline].  Art by Cam Kennedy.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 20 April, 2020, 12:55:52 PM
‪U.K. folk -  Important reminder: ‬

‪You can help Kings College London track and slow the virus!‬

‪Follow the link, download an app, and just log in once a day for a quick 30 second update on how you're feeling.‬

‪Go here:‬

‪https://covid.joinzoe.com/‬
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: sintec on 20 April, 2020, 04:56:37 PM
Some useful info on the source of some conspiracy nonsense I've been seeing trapsed around on other social media; A Toxic 'Infodemic': The Viral Spread Of COVID-19 Conspiracy Theories (http://"https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/coronavirus-conspiracy-theories-social-media_n_5e83d701c5b6a1bb764f6d3b?ri18n=true&guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly9jb25zZW50LnlhaG9vLmNvbS9jb2xsZWN0Q29uc2VudD9zZXNzaW9uSWQ9M19jYy1zZXNzaW9uXzhjMzdmZTA0LTIzZmEtNGQyMS04YzY5LTMzYWE5YzQ1MjVjNiZsYW5nPWVuLXVzJmlubGluZT1mYWxzZQ&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAFzUXIq33ZsPb-wXuM-FcyEbm8k0fvib9HFIUjnYLBILkOdovvykpOjx5v-UjqkT7mclQ3ZmOL_kDsgKbAVONEHOHOGErbcyblCtZJpmrMA1lZ2eHp929Q5hbLwYV0p4px3THz1JwIGgLTQxpQ-n9iW4dMkhVoXJ52z2XhrUOPi2")

Seems some people don't realise that an osteopath may not be the best source for advice on the spread of infections. Although tbf the individual I encountered spouting this nonsense felt that QAnon was a better source of info that The Lancet so I'm not sure there's any helping them tbh.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: SmallBlueThing(Reborn) on 20 April, 2020, 06:41:44 PM
Sintec, that link isnt working- at least for me.

SBT
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: sintec on 20 April, 2020, 06:43:58 PM
Quote from: SmallBlueThing(Reborn) on 20 April, 2020, 06:41:44 PM
Sintec, that link isnt working- at least for me.

SBT

oops think I screwed up my URL tag - this one worked for me in the preview hopefully good for others too

A Toxic 'Infodemic': The Viral Spread Of COVID-19 Conspiracy Theories | HuffPost UK (https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/coronavirus-conspiracy-theories-social-media_n_5e83d701c5b6a1bb764f6d3b?ri18n=true&guccounter=1&guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly9jb25zZW50LnlhaG9vLmNvbS9jb2xsZWN0Q29uc2VudD9zZXNzaW9uSWQ9M19jYy1zZXNzaW9uXzhjMzdmZTA0LTIzZmEtNGQyMS04YzY5LTMzYWE5YzQ1MjVjNiZsYW5nPWVuLXVzJmlubGluZT1mYWxzZQ&guce_referrer_sig=AQAAAFzUXIq33ZsPb-wXuM-FcyEbm8k0fvib9HFIUjnYLBILkOdovvykpOjx5v-UjqkT7mclQ3ZmOL_kDsgKbAVONEHOHOGErbcyblCtZJpmrMA1lZ2eHp929Q5hbLwYV0p4px3THz1JwIGgLTQxpQ-n9iW4dMkhVoXJ52z2XhrUOPi2)
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: SmallBlueThing(Reborn) on 20 April, 2020, 07:22:45 PM
Brilliant, yep that's good now.

I feel like I'mfighting a running battle with people I know in all walks of life over ridiculous conspiracy crap regarding C19. It's like everybody has completely taken leave of heir senses, emptied their heads and is prepared to believe whatever nonsense reinforces their very personal fears.

I had it today with my mum and dad- my father, 83, is refusing to self isolate. Despite my mother having copd, half a lung and receiving a letter from her hero Boris pleading her to stay home, my dad doesnt see the need to protect her. Hes "a trained soldier", you see. When he was in the army, he received injections and was told by the medic "you boys getting these jabs, you'll never get ill". Despite that being 64 years ago and the intervening years bringing cancer, rheumatoid arthritis and continual shits (thanks for that, dad) he somehow sticks by this anonymous cretinous army doctor's word. "I'm still alive" he says, "so he was right".

Sorry, one for the "life sucks" thread really.

SBT
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: MacabreMagpie on 20 April, 2020, 08:07:40 PM
Quote from: SmallBlueThing(Reborn) on 20 April, 2020, 07:22:45 PM
Brilliant, yep that's good now.

I feel like I'mfighting a running battle with people I know in all walks of life over ridiculous conspiracy crap regarding C19. It's like everybody has completely taken leave of heir senses, emptied their heads and is prepared to believe whatever nonsense reinforces their very personal fears.

I had it today with my mum and dad- my father, 83, is refusing to self isolate. Despite my mother having copd, half a lung and receiving a letter from her hero Boris pleading her to stay home, my dad doesnt see the need to protect her. Hes "a trained soldier", you see. When he was in the army, he received injections and was told by the medic "you boys getting these jabs, you'll never get ill". Despite that being 64 years ago and the intervening years bringing cancer, rheumatoid arthritis and continual shits (thanks for that, dad) he somehow sticks by this anonymous cretinous army doctor's word. "I'm still alive" he says, "so he was right".

Sorry, one for the "life sucks" thread really.

SBT

Sorry mate. I've tried to console myself on occasions when the overwhelming stress and fear of it all gets to me that my parents and loved ones are about as safe as they can be given the circumstances, when I've heard of people with folks who aren't listening to the advice or are stranded abroad. I can't imagine how stressful that must be.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: paddykafka on 20 April, 2020, 08:15:57 PM
Sorry to hear of your troubles, SBT. It's little consolation, I know, but you've done what you could and are deserving of respect for that. Take care.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 20 April, 2020, 08:18:32 PM
With government trying to do a damage-control PR job after the brutal expose from the Sunday Times, here's the Byeline Times exposing EVEN MORE disaster from Boris and his lot.


https://bylinetimes.com/2020/04/20/weekly-update-20-april-a-national-scandal-timeline-of-the-uk-governments-response-to-the-coronavirus-crisis/
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Professor Bear on 20 April, 2020, 08:44:37 PM
The British government, via the Department of Health and Social Care, has been stealing the identities of NHS staff to create social media accounts in order to spread fake science supporting Johnson's "herd immunity" claims. (https://twitter.com/jdpoc/status/1252266724449230848)
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 20 April, 2020, 08:52:10 PM
Fuck me.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Professor Bear on 20 April, 2020, 09:02:56 PM
Looks like they already have.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 20 April, 2020, 11:54:28 PM
Even after EVERTHING, I'm struggling to beIieve this story is what it seems: it's like the denouement of a Robert Harris alternate history thriller. I'm so sick of saying this, but if it can be proven without room for doubt, that.must be the end of this UK government. And if not, the absolute end of your current iteration of democracy.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 21 April, 2020, 01:36:32 AM
Quote from: TordelBack on 20 April, 2020, 11:54:28 PM
Even after EVERTHING, I'm struggling to beIieve this story is what it seems: it's like the denouement of a Robert Harris alternate history thriller. I'm so sick of saying this, but if it can be proven without room for doubt, that.must be the end of this UK government. And if not, the absolute end of your current iteration of democracy.

The current iteration of democracy ended with the EU vote and Cambridge Analytica. We're well and truly through the looking glass now.

Time will tell on this one, but it's very hard to trust a government where:

"88% (5,952) of the party's most widely promoted ads [during the election] either featured claims which had been flagged by independent fact-checking organisations (including BBC Reality Check) as not correct or not entirely correct."

(For contrast Labour inaccuracies were at about 7%).

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-50726500
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Professor Bear on 21 April, 2020, 03:10:10 AM
They'll just gaslight their way out of this: it didn't happen, or if that doesn't work, it was one man who no longer works for the party behind it all - also known as the "BBC doesn't need to be reformed as the people responsible have moved on" defence.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 21 April, 2020, 07:52:07 AM
Completely agree about CA, incessant bald-faced lies and elaborate deniability etc, but if the electorate will accept, ignore, excuse or forgive this, then there is no functioning democracy, or hope of same.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 21 April, 2020, 08:54:35 AM
I can't help wonder if it is all part of an elaborate scheme of hypernormalisation to pit one against another, keeping society and politics off balance -  creating different factions based on different ideologies, and get them to war it out with one another via social media, normal media, or actual protests -  claim/counterclaim, push/pull, science/ideology etc etc - while in the background the powers that be who set it all in motion get on with doing what the hell they want.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/HyperNormalisation
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 21 April, 2020, 09:50:37 AM
The US appears to be a fantastic example of the above right now.

Different states are going different things, Trump flies in the face of scientific advice, and different groups driven by social media cry either "stay at home" or "protect your fundamental rights!" or "march on the governors house" or even "COVID-19 IS A LIE".

It all appears to be heading towards a bloody civil war, while the death toll from the virus in the US is at 40,000 and rising.

Let's face it, outside of a nuclear war, Putin couldn't have destabilised the US more.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/world/us-lockdown-backlash-sees-gun-toting-extremists-warn-of-bloody-revolution-amid-fears-of-all-out-war/ar-BB12WQaA?ocid=spartanntp

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: The Enigmatic Dr X on 21 April, 2020, 10:49:44 AM
If you were an unscrupulous superpower with great financial strength.

And if you released a contagious but low fatality novel virus.

And if you and your cronies shorted the markets.

You could make a lot of money while destroying rival economies.

Just saying.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 21 April, 2020, 10:53:36 AM
I would suggest that the virus is entirely natural, and that the unscrupulous superpower has been opportunistic.

The 'superpower' luckily already has the things in place to cause massive upheaval across the globe through misinformation, as evidenced by the EU referendum, Trump getting in etc etc.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 21 April, 2020, 11:09:34 AM
The only problem with the 'deliberately created' theory is why China would start things off in its own territory, even allowing that it could use its vast totalitarian reources to control spread internally once the virus has spread globally. It's not like it would work to divert blame, as we have seen.

China could easily have got the ball rolling elsewhere and further advantaged its economy - no-one would have been surprised to see an instant hardening of its borders in response to an exernal outbreak.

EDIT: Wait, I'm being fecking thick. You're not pointing the finger at China, are you. The problem with the Putin scenario is how would you ever tell.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: sheridan on 21 April, 2020, 11:46:40 AM
I'm not an admin, but I will just remind everybody of the following from earlier in the thread...

Quote from: Molch-R on 24 March, 2020, 11:27:07 AM
I'm going to step in at this point and provide a little guidance on this thread.

Anyone posting misinformation, conspiracy theories, or scare-stories from dodgy sources will have their posts removed and bans may be handed out for repeat offenders. If you don't see where the line is drawn by my previous sentence, don't post.

A lot of people are scared and under extraordinary stress, this is not the time to spread misinformation that will stoke panic or fear. Please practice a little empathy and think about the safety and well-being of other human beings.


Emboldened for emphasis — IP
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 21 April, 2020, 12:00:47 PM
U.K. folk -  Important reminder:

You can help Kings College London track and slow the virus!

Follow the link, download an app, and just log in once a day for a quick 30 second update on how you're feeling.

Go here:


https://covid.joinzoe.com/
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 21 April, 2020, 12:15:35 PM
Quote from: sheridan on 21 April, 2020, 11:46:40 AM
I'm not an admin, but I will just remind everybody of the following from earlier in the thread...


Cheers for the reminder, Sheridan!
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 21 April, 2020, 02:54:19 PM
Quote from: TordelBack on 21 April, 2020, 12:15:35 PM
Quote from: sheridan on 21 April, 2020, 11:46:40 AM
I'm not an admin, but I will just remind everybody of the following from earlier in the thread...


Cheers for the reminder, Sheridan!

Aye, fair enough!
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: sheridan on 21 April, 2020, 04:43:43 PM
(I like a conspiracy theory as much as the next person, but also like people not to be temp-banned).
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: The Enigmatic Dr X on 21 April, 2020, 05:01:22 PM
Quote from: sheridan on 21 April, 2020, 11:46:40 AM
I'm not an admin, but I will just remind everybody of the following from earlier in the thread...

Quote from: Molch-R on 24 March, 2020, 11:27:07 AM
I'm going to step in at this point and provide a little guidance on this thread.

Anyone posting misinformation, conspiracy theories, or scare-stories from dodgy sources will have their posts removed and bans may be handed out for repeat offenders. If you don't see where the line is drawn by my previous sentence, don't post.

A lot of people are scared and under extraordinary stress, this is not the time to spread misinformation that will stoke panic or fear. Please practice a little empathy and think about the safety and well-being of other human beings.


Emboldened for emphasis — IP


Sorry

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 22 April, 2020, 03:32:47 PM
This FT analysis of available data is staggering.

So a more likely CURRENT figure for U.K. deaths is about 40,000. And we're not moving down yet.

If we have the same number of deaths on the way down as the way up, we could be looking at 80,000 deaths by the time we're through the first wave.

And don't forget there could be as many as ten waves.

https://www.ft.com/content/67e6a4ee-3d05-43bc-ba03-e239799fa6ab
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Professor Bear on 25 April, 2020, 02:00:07 AM
What are the chances of there being another Dominic Cummings who happens to be a member of the SAGE council of boffins that the UK cabinet got its scientific advice from regarding the response to C-19? (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/24/revealed-dominic-cummings-on-secret-scientific-advisory-group-for-covid-19?CMP=share_btn_tw)  What a coincidence.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Funt Solo on 25 April, 2020, 03:42:56 AM
It's the equivalent of something like Donald Trump giving out medical advice!

---

In the article "Number 10" get into some fantastic double-think with their argument that being at and engaging in a group's meeting don't amount to being in the group.  Uh-huh.

Quote"It is not true that Mr Cummings or Dr Warner are 'on' or members of Sage. [They] have attended some Sage meetings ... they ask questions or offer help when scientists mention problems in Whitehall," a No 10 spokesman said.

No undue influence, then. Just "asking" and "offering". And we can all trust Dominic Cummings to remain agenda-free and not try to control things.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: JOE SOAP on 25 April, 2020, 11:51:30 AM
We've known he's part of SAGE since the Sunday Times reported it several weeks ago.

Quote from: JOE SOAP on 22 March, 2020, 02:18:24 PM
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 22 March, 2020, 10:00:13 AM
Just in case anyone was uncertain what actual honest-to-God evil looks like, here's a snippet from today's Sunday Times by Tim Shipman, their political editor:

The final paragraph implies worse.

(https://i.imgur.com/1EcGSn6.jpg)
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Professor Bear on 25 April, 2020, 12:20:19 PM
The Guardian is running it as an "exclusive", and it only seems to have blown up on Twitter right now, so it's possible that we just didn't notice at the time what other things.  Or there wasn't any other catastrophe going on to make us scared and/or angry so they're whipping one up for us to keep us amused during lockdown, which is very considerate of them.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: sheridan on 25 April, 2020, 12:59:55 PM
Quote from: Funt Solo on 25 April, 2020, 03:42:56 AM
It's the equivalent of something like Donald Trump giving out medical advice!

---

In the article "Number 10" get into some fantastic double-think with their argument that being at and engaging in a group's meeting don't amount to being in the group.  Uh-huh.

Quote"It is not true that Mr Cummings or Dr Warner are 'on' or members of Sage. [They] have attended some Sage meetings ... they ask questions or offer help when scientists mention problems in Whitehall," a No 10 spokesman said.

No undue influence, then. Just "asking" and "offering". And we can all trust Dominic Cummings to remain agenda-free and not try to control things.


(https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRCqn_vt_4M6eAqEASV4zXVHSj6ueNAwWKqMxakIi4jp4Ed8zzu)
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: MacabreMagpie on 26 April, 2020, 08:33:47 AM
That thing about the fake NHS accounts, the guy making the claim (who has declined to share his workings) has a dodgy track record with providing evidence for such things.

"His was the first account we were able to find that shared a false quote that went viral during the 2019 election campaign. The quote (in a now-deleted tweet, still available on the Internet Archive) was claimed to be from the leaked US-UK trade documents, and supposedly said that the US reserved the right to "withdraw all trade" if the UK did not agree to discussions about "the sale of all assets within and partnered with the National Health Service".

No such quote appeared in the leaked text. When asked by a Twitter user where the quote appeared, Mr O'Connell gave a page reference that did not exist in any of the documents."

https://fullfact.org/online/evidence-network-fake-nhs-tweets/
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 26 April, 2020, 10:53:14 AM



Another essential report COVID report, this time from the following:

Robert Hockett - Professor of Law at Cornell Law School in Ithaca, New York;

Helen Ward - Prof Infectious Disease Epidemiology, Director of Education, Imperial School of Public Health

Michael Jacobs -  director of the Commission on Economic Justice at the Institute for Public Policy Research and a visiting professor in the Department of Political Science and School of Public Policy, University College London.

Nisreen Alwan - Assoc. Prof. Epidemiology Public Health, University of Southampton

Topics discussed:

Exit strategies from lockdown, lack thereof
Test, trace, quarantine - absolute need for
Economy and public health
Economy and climate crisis
Government policy and failures thereof
Economic impact
Mortality rates
Huge risks to U.K. healthcare workers



https://youtu.be/KN0K0dgLwYE
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Professor Bear on 26 April, 2020, 05:25:44 PM
Quote from: MacabreMagpie on 26 April, 2020, 08:33:47 AM
That thing about the fake NHS accounts, the guy making the claim (who has declined to share his workings) has a dodgy track record with providing evidence for such things.

There are questions to be asked about the source, but at the very least I'd expect most newspapers to be running stories about the far left fake news factory by now.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 27 April, 2020, 10:00:24 AM
Laying some blocks at home yesterday, a task I am consistently hopeless at, and my 13yr-old appears and starts giving teenage knowitall advice. I try to tune him out and focus on why the mortar filets keep slumping, and only gradually realise that the advice is the good kind.

He takes over mortar mixing duties, gets the consistency spot-on and is swiftly promoted to joints and pointing. We get it done.

We establish that he learnt these skills from my incredibly handy father-in-law who was doing up a house last summer when reluctantly pressed into childcare. I knew the lad was useful, I've successfully used him as a cleaner and removal man myself, but I'd assumed his grandad had had him filling the skip, holding the other end of things and making the tea - but apparently bricklaying featured heavily, along with pouring concrete, sanding, drilling and grinding.

This is really great, I opined, we'll have to get you back working with grandad this summer, you've learnt things it's taken me 50 years to pick up on my own (my own Dad couldn't wire a plug, and to my knowledge has never successfully put up a shelf).

I'd love to, he replied, but it's not going to happen, is it. Not this summer and not the next.

That really brought it home to me. We've been keeping the parents and in-laws successfully cocooned this past month, but it's so difficult to imagine what an end to that situation looks like.

Even if we are successful in keeping the oldies alive, as my son observed, there's no way a teenager is going to be spending time with his mid-70s diabetic grandad any time soon. And that time is very finite: I never knew either of my grandads, they and one of my grandmothers were dead by the time I was 3. It's been a real source of joy to see my kids have real relationships with all 4 of theirs, and now to see skills and interests passed on in a meaningful way is amazing.

What this is costing us can't be measured in death stats and economic collapse alone.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 27 April, 2020, 10:21:29 AM
Mini-G was at her grandparents' two days a week last summer. She loved it. They took her to all sorts of things, and she got her first pony ride, and her first time on a boat. This summer, I imagine it'll be calls over Skype. It really hits home when it comes to kids.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Tjm86 on 27 April, 2020, 07:34:11 PM
Quote from: TordelBack on 27 April, 2020, 10:00:24 AM
What this is costing us can't be measured in death stats and economic collapse alone.

Fuck!

I mean, that has to be the most astoundingly astute observation of the last six weeks.    :'(
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 28 April, 2020, 05:38:30 PM
Royal Mail buckles. No more Saturday Progs for the foreseeable future: https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/breaking-royal-mail-scraps-saturday-21940534
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Professor Bear on 28 April, 2020, 07:14:10 PM
Isn't package delivery the part-privatized bit of RM?  Only I note that would mean that the part of the service that likely doesn't have a notable union presence is the part that's still being forced to work on Saturdays.

Anecdotally speaking of unions: one of my brothers works for the DWP, and despite having zero interest in politics - in Northern Ireland, this takes some doing - he and his colleagues have begun willingly attending impromptu union meetings and unironically using the phrases "bootlicker" and "class traitor" to describe the small number of people in their office trying to force management to return to regular working hours and conditions.  Despite being a commie who likes the idea of worker solidarity, for some reason I just find this really funny in the year 2020.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Colin Zeal on 30 April, 2020, 09:54:04 PM
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 28 April, 2020, 05:38:30 PM
Royal Mail buckles. No more Saturday Progs for the foreseeable future: https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/breaking-royal-mail-scraps-saturday-21940534

Only if this goes ahead and that isn't a definite. The CWU is opposing it and will be considering all options including strike action. The possible start date is 16th May and we have been told by the union that we will not be supporting the proposed changes. So Saturday progs should still be going ahead.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Tjm86 on 01 May, 2020, 05:47:38 AM
I find the proposal by RM deeply concerning on a number of levels.  If they can get it through it could be proof of concept that a five day delivery is acceptable to people and can be maintained.  This may well be the thin end of the wedge as there has long been subtle agitation to adjust the universal delivery mandate to more 'economically viable' (profitable) approaches.  It needs to be watched closely and opposed as much as possible.

This is before we take into account the essential nature of delivery services at this time.  With so many restrictions at present, the ability to be able to physically move items from one place to another safely and securely is crucial.  Personally I trust the likes of Nodel, DPD, Herpes and the other private delivery services about as much as Johnson, based on past experiences.  Okay Royal Mail isn't perfect but I have not had half the difficulty those other companies have given me in the past.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: paddykafka on 01 May, 2020, 10:43:39 AM
Quote from: Tjm86 on 01 May, 2020, 05:47:38 AM
  Personally I trust the likes of Nodel, DPD, Herpes and the other private delivery services about as much as Johnson, based on past experiences.  Okay Royal Mail isn't perfect but I have not had half the difficulty those other companies have given me in the past.

Wait...what now...there's a delivery service called Herpes???!!!   :o

Interestingly enough, An Post - the equivalent of Royal Mail here in the Emerald Isle - have not, to the best of my knowledge at least, had Saturday deliveries for as long as I can remember, if ever. (Of course, I stand to be corrected on this, but I can only ever recall Monday to Friday postal deliveries in this country.)
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: sheridan on 01 May, 2020, 11:22:58 AM
Quote from: paddykafka on 01 May, 2020, 10:43:39 AM
Quote from: Tjm86 on 01 May, 2020, 05:47:38 AM
  Personally I trust the likes of Nodel, DPD, Herpes and the other private delivery services about as much as Johnson, based on past experiences.  Okay Royal Mail isn't perfect but I have not had half the difficulty those other companies have given me in the past.

Wait...what now...there's a delivery service called Herpes???!!!   :o

Nah - it's Hermes, though Herpes would be a more pleasant experience.

It used to be that Saturday deliveries were very rare - I certainly don't remember any when I was a kid.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: The Enigmatic Dr X on 01 May, 2020, 02:20:28 PM
Mrs X has just been tested!
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: JOE SOAP on 01 May, 2020, 02:21:37 PM
Quote from: paddykafka on 01 May, 2020, 10:43:39 AMInterestingly enough, An Post - the equivalent of Royal Mail here in the Emerald Isle - have not, to the best of my knowledge at least, had Saturday deliveries for as long as I can remember, if ever. (Of course, I stand to be corrected on this, but I can only ever recall Monday to Friday postal deliveries in this country.)

There are weekend deliveries at Christmas time.

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: paddykafka on 01 May, 2020, 02:47:06 PM
Quote from: The Enigmatic Dr X on 01 May, 2020, 02:20:28 PM
Mrs X has just been tested!

Best of luck to her and fingers crossed, Dr X.

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Rately on 01 May, 2020, 03:27:02 PM
Dr X, wishing you and yours all the best.

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Rately on 01 May, 2020, 03:28:19 PM
Open Letter to UK Government: "Do you want our PPE or not?"

https://medium.com/@change.orgUK/open-letter-to-uk-government-do-you-want-our-ppe-or-not-fce832e6e37a
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 01 May, 2020, 05:04:30 PM
Quote from: The Enigmatic Dr X on 01 May, 2020, 02:20:28 PM
Mrs X has just been tested!

Best of luck, lad.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: von Boom on 01 May, 2020, 08:28:03 PM
Fingers crossed for you and your missus, Dr. X.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: The Doctor Alt 8 on 02 May, 2020, 01:36:55 AM

Crossed fingers from me to.


Is it just my area or are people getting more lax with their social distancing? The security staff at the supermarkets are letting more people in instead of the one in one out policy. This means that the shops are more crowded and its difficult to maintain the proper distance. Some queeres are not keeping away from others... people are stopping and chatting to each other.  No one seems to care to stop them and I am sure that there are more cars on the road.

But the danger isn't over... far from it.. We are heading for a second wave at this rate... And the country can't afford it an not in just a financial way.

:(
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 02 May, 2020, 11:34:38 AM
Good luck from me too!

My partner's brother was tested a fortnight ago, as he thought he'd caught it from one of the 'supported adults' homes he works in. Thankfully it came back negative.

I wasn't sure where best to post this, but seeing as it is COVID, PPE, and NHS related, I'm leaving it here. Such dark humour, but just nails the cognitive dissonance currently rife throughout the U.K.

https://www.facebook.com/228085561008026/posts/848031589013417/?vh=e


YouTube version here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iprf9n5ht14
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Robin Low on 02 May, 2020, 11:36:15 AM
Quote from: The Doctor Alt 8 on 02 May, 2020, 01:36:55 AM
Is it just my area or are people getting more lax with their social distancing? The security staff at the supermarkets are letting more people in instead of the one in one out policy. This means that the shops are more crowded and its difficult to maintain the proper distance. Some queeres are not keeping away from others... people are stopping and chatting to each other.  No one seems to care to stop them and I am sure that there are more cars on the road.

I'm thinking the same. Many people are still being sensible, I can see plenty who are not.

I hate to say it as someone due to turn 50 this year but who feels 20-something inside (well, maybe 30-something), but younger people seem to be the worst offenders.

Regards,

Robin
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Richard on 02 May, 2020, 11:40:26 AM
20% of negative test results are wrong, so if you had a reason to suspect you had covid-19 then you should continue to act as if you have it.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 02 May, 2020, 11:42:51 AM
Quote from: Robin Low on 02 May, 2020, 11:36:15 AM
I hate to say it as someone due to turn 50 this year but who feels 20-something inside (well, maybe 30-something), but younger people seem to be the worst offenders.

My experience in shops is the exact opposite: it's the old biddies wandering up and down the aisles caring not a jot for instructions to all move in the same direction and the clear floor markings showing two meter intervals. All of which only demonstrates that anecdote≠data.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: paddykafka on 02 May, 2020, 02:01:32 PM
And keeping in the spirit of black humour ('cause Grud knows, we need a laugh now and again during these times....)

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=164370061449973

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Colin Zeal on 02 May, 2020, 02:30:13 PM
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 28 April, 2020, 05:38:30 PM
Royal Mail buckles. No more Saturday Progs for the foreseeable future: https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/breaking-royal-mail-scraps-saturday-21940534

Update on this - it has been agreed that each delivery office can make the decision for themselves about Saturday post. It will only last for six weeks and be reviewed fortnightly. My office  (London e2) was going to carry on as normal but for some unknown reason the office that processes our work decided for us that we wouldn't be doing letters and flats (magazines and catalogues ) today and held back the work.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: von Boom on 02 May, 2020, 03:10:43 PM
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 02 May, 2020, 11:42:51 AM
Quote from: Robin Low on 02 May, 2020, 11:36:15 AM
I hate to say it as someone due to turn 50 this year but who feels 20-something inside (well, maybe 30-something), but younger people seem to be the worst offenders.

My experience in shops is the exact opposite: it's the old biddies wandering up and down the aisles caring not a jot for instructions to all move in the same direction and the clear floor markings showing two meter intervals. All of which only demonstrates that anecdote≠data.
This is my experience as well. The last time I was there there were three of them blocking an aisle having a catch up on this and that. They were completely oblivious to the other people trying to use the aisle.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: The Enigmatic Dr X on 02 May, 2020, 03:50:12 PM
Thanks for your kind words. She's actually fine, mostly. Sore throat and grumpier than usual (but that might be because I'm at home more). Sore limbs. But no cough, no temperature.

I had a really wierd metal taste in my mouth for five or six days. Whisky got rid of it.

Reckon we've got something.

As she is a pharmacist, she thought it best to get tested so as not to infect anyone.

Results tomorrow - 48 hour turnaround.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: sheridan on 02 May, 2020, 06:39:40 PM
Quote from: Colin Zeal on 02 May, 2020, 02:30:13 PM
Update on this - it has been agreed that each delivery office can make the decision for themselves about Saturday post. It will only last for six weeks and be reviewed fortnightly. My office  (London e2) was going to carry on as normal but for some unknown reason the office that processes our work decided for us that we wouldn't be doing letters and flats (magazines and catalogues ) today and held back the work.

Interesting - thanks for the update!  Also, I used to work right in the middle of that postcode...
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Robin Low on 02 May, 2020, 07:06:23 PM
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 02 May, 2020, 11:42:51 AM
Quote from: Robin Low on 02 May, 2020, 11:36:15 AM
I hate to say it as someone due to turn 50 this year but who feels 20-something inside (well, maybe 30-something), but younger people seem to be the worst offenders.

My experience in shops is the exact opposite: it's the old biddies wandering up and down the aisles caring not a jot for instructions to all move in the same direction and the clear floor markings showing two meter intervals. All of which only demonstrates that anecdote≠data.

Indeed. Hence my use of the word 'seem' as opposed to 'are'. I try to avoid things like YMMV, IME or IMO if I can.

Regards,

Robin
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Robin Low on 02 May, 2020, 07:16:07 PM
On another note, has anyone else seen an apparent explosion of joggers in their neck of the woods?

Assuming they're not just new to the activity, I've been wondering when and where they were all running before.

Regards,

Robin
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Professor Bear on 02 May, 2020, 07:27:51 PM
Most likely gym users forced into jogging when the gyms/leisure centers shut.  I'm more concerned at the explosion of dog-walkers and wonder why these poor pooches weren't getting exercised before.  Hopefully people weren't just letting them out to wander around.

Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 02 May, 2020, 11:42:51 AM
Quote from: Robin Low on 02 May, 2020, 11:36:15 AM
I hate to say it as someone due to turn 50 this year but who feels 20-something inside (well, maybe 30-something), but younger people seem to be the worst offenders.

My experience in shops is the exact opposite: it's the old biddies wandering up and down the aisles caring not a jot for instructions to all move in the same direction and the clear floor markings showing two meter intervals.

My local supermarket was manned mostly by high-risk individuals (50+, underlying health conditions, etc), and the few employees in their early 20s took it upon themselves many weeks ago - when it all kicked off - to bring in PPE and hand sanitizer, only to be expressly forbidden from using any of it because "it looks bad".  Later, they took it upon themselves to disable the automatic doors and institute a 1-in-1-out policy, as there's a post office in the back portion of the store and pensioners were very much ignoring social distancing/stay at home rules to collect their pensions in person.  The younger staff were taking this seriously, the older ones just seemed to view it as an inconvenience with which they shouldn't have to concern themselves.

Having said that, I've seen more and more (admittedly small) groups of kids hanging about as time goes on.  So much for that joke about how being stuck in their rooms with their phones and videogame consoles isn't really a punishment.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Tiplodocus on 02 May, 2020, 07:40:53 PM
Had my first shopping trip wearing a mask today. I felt like a total fud.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Robin Low on 02 May, 2020, 07:41:45 PM
Quote from: Professor Bear on 02 May, 2020, 07:27:51 PM
Most likely gym users forced into jogging when the gyms/leisure centers shut.

Ah, very good, that makes prefect sense.


QuoteThe younger staff were taking this seriously, the older ones just seemed to view it as an inconvenience with which they shouldn't have to concern themselves.

Yeah, we're probably not going to see a proper demographic breakdown of age-related behaviour. I doubt anyone's doing it now and I can't imagine anyone will want to sit down and watch hours of CCTV footage.

We had a girl in our local co-op who was wearing a mask from the very beginning, but the younger hospital workers who share the bus with me walk in a group, wait in a group and sit in a group. I've seen junior doctors doing the same. Distancing practices also seem to be varying a lot between and within different departments.

Regards,

Robin
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Robin Low on 02 May, 2020, 07:44:29 PM
Quote from: Tiplodocus on 02 May, 2020, 07:40:53 PM
Had my first shopping trip wearing a mask today. I felt like a total fud.

Try a scarf first. Masks will be easier when more people are doing it and the fashion industry sees them as a way to get back on its feet.

Regards,

Robin
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 02 May, 2020, 09:26:30 PM
Quote from: Professor Bear on 02 May, 2020, 07:27:51 PM
Most likely gym users forced into jogging when the gyms/leisure centers shut.

I'm afraid this is very much me, although I at least have the decency to go out at 6:30am when very few people will see me wheezing my way round a pathetically short circuit.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: sheridan on 02 May, 2020, 09:31:49 PM
Quote from: Robin Low on 02 May, 2020, 07:16:07 PM
On another note, has anyone else seen an apparent explosion of joggers in their neck of the woods?

Assuming they're not just new to the activity, I've been wondering when and where they were all running before.

Regards,

Robin

I'd have thought some of it is making up for the lack of activity when commuting.  Or having wanted to do so, but not being able to because of the amount of times usually spent commuting.  Myself, I have over two hours a day extra to do with what I want.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: sintec on 03 May, 2020, 09:43:20 AM
Quote from: Professor Bear on 02 May, 2020, 07:27:51 PM
I'm more concerned at the explosion of dog-walkers and wonder why these poor pooches weren't getting exercised before.

My suspicion is that many of these pooches used to get walked by paid dog walkers, they probably went out as part of a group during the day whilst we're all mostly at work. There's definitely been an increase in the number of people who seem to be unable to pick up after their beast, I suspect this may also be related.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Robin Low on 03 May, 2020, 09:52:04 AM
Quote from: sheridan on 02 May, 2020, 09:31:49 PM
Quote from: Robin Low on 02 May, 2020, 07:16:07 PM
On another note, has anyone else seen an apparent explosion of joggers in their neck of the woods?

Assuming they're not just new to the activity, I've been wondering when and where they were all running before.


I'd have thought some of it is making up for the lack of activity when commuting.  Or having wanted to do so, but not being able to because of the amount of times usually spent commuting.  Myself, I have over two hours a day extra to do with what I want.

Could be, but I've noticed that a lot of them look pretty fit already, which fits with the Bear's point about gyms. There is a smaller number who physically look like they're new to it, but even they seem to be trotting along quite comfortably. Certainly more comfortably than I could.

Regards,

Robin
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 03 May, 2020, 12:13:35 PM
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 02 May, 2020, 09:26:30 PM
...although I at least have the decency to go out at 6:30am when very few people will see me wheezing my way round a pathetically short circuit.

Ah-yup.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: paddykafka on 03 May, 2020, 12:27:00 PM
Quote from: Professor Bear on 02 May, 2020, 07:27:51 PM

Having said that, I've seen more and more (admittedly small) groups of kids hanging about as time goes on.  So much for that joke about how being stuck in their rooms with their phones and videogame consoles isn't really a punishment.

Well, talking about groups of kids hanging about. Take a look at these fine, young specimens of Humanity in action, as they display their own peculiar form of social distancing.

https://www.facebook.com/seenindublin/videos/2578651435568033

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Robin Low on 03 May, 2020, 02:03:32 PM
Interesting little piece on 'lockdown breakers'. I think my favourite line is, "Mum is in touch with this underground network of hairdressers who have been working from home."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52501417

Regards,

Robin
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Tiplodocus on 03 May, 2020, 02:05:58 PM
I make a point of wearing one of my 10k or half-marathon finisher tops when out running. So people know I did this before the lockdown. Not sure if makes them judge me less or more.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Modern Panther on 03 May, 2020, 02:31:06 PM
Quote"Mum is in touch with this underground network of hairdressers who have been working from home."

this is the way the world ends
this is the way the world ends
this is the way the world ends
not with bangs, but with a primper.

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: The Enigmatic Dr X on 03 May, 2020, 04:03:33 PM
Missus is waiting on the results of a Covid test.

Front line health worker, waiting to hear so she knows if she can work.

Results delayed by the bank holiday.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Tiplodocus on 03 May, 2020, 04:47:58 PM
But it isn't a Bank Holiday until 8th? Bonkers.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 03 May, 2020, 05:41:34 PM
Want to see a Cummings bot farm in action?

https://twitter.com/scowlingmonkey/status/1256743386448564224?s=21
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 03 May, 2020, 05:47:08 PM
Quote from: Modern Panther on 03 May, 2020, 02:31:06 PM
Quote"Mum is in touch with this underground network of hairdressers who have been working from home."

this is the way the world ends
this is the way the world ends
this is the way the world ends
not with bangs, but with a primper.

Cometh the hour, cometh the man. Fantastic.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: The Enigmatic Dr X on 03 May, 2020, 08:00:18 PM
Quote from: The Enigmatic Dr X on 03 May, 2020, 04:03:33 PM
Missus is waiting on the results of a Covid test.

Front line health worker, waiting to hear so she knows if she can work.

Results delayed by the bank holiday.

I actually asked for this post to be deleted by a mod. I was irritated when I posted it, which was caused by a recording on the phone line when we called to chase the results. Then, about 30 minutes after posting, we got the results (positive). I am really annoyed at myself for venting in a public forum and would like to apologies to all.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 03 May, 2020, 09:48:13 PM
That's shit news Dr X, but don't worry about the venting - totally understandable, stressful times. Sincerely hope your missus gets better quickly, and the bug spreads no further.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: paddykafka on 03 May, 2020, 10:01:24 PM
Heck, no need to apologise as far as I can see, Dr X. So sorry to hear of the bad news. Hope you and Mrs X will get through this okay. Sincere best wishes to you both.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 03 May, 2020, 11:17:06 PM
Oh no, I imagine you must both be very worried! That is not news you want to hear. Hang in there!
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Tiplodocus on 04 May, 2020, 12:48:00 PM
Yeah - hope you all make it through fine and dandy.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: von Boom on 04 May, 2020, 01:59:28 PM
Awful news, Dr. X. I hope your wife recovers quickly.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Bolt-01 on 04 May, 2020, 02:28:32 PM
Argh, Dr X - that's rough. Hope all goes well and you have folks who can help with support nearby.

Don't feel bad about venting - it is what we are here for.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Professor Bear on 08 May, 2020, 09:15:29 PM
Sales have plummeted, advertising rates are nonexistent, and many newspapers face liquidation.  Anyway, it's a real mystery why so many of them are currently pushing out stories about the lockdown being eased this Monday when even the government aren't saying such a thing.  I wonder what their motivation is?
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 09 May, 2020, 01:19:06 PM
TBF, they were clearly briefed on this.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IAMTHESYSTEM on 09 May, 2020, 02:23:10 PM
I doubt the shops and supermarkets will restrict their social distancing and numbers allowed entry rules, so queueing will still be the norm for a while. Schools and Libraries are unlikely to reopen, but maybe you can go out for a walk a little more than once a day.     
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 09 May, 2020, 03:22:11 PM
I went for a cycle last night. It was nightmarish. 

I go out later when there are fewer pedestrians and cyclists, and usually manage a cycle once every couple of days. The roads are a lot quieter at dusk, and there's hardly anyone about. Usually.

This time, I cycled past, and on one occasion through, shitloads of parties. People partying in their front gardens, spilling out onto the pavement, people with chairs and tables laid out with food and drinks in front of their terraced house surrounded by fellow party-goers, AN ENTIRE STREET covered in bunting and rammed with people!!

It was insane.

I get the impression from Twitter that Cardiff wasn't alone in this idiocy.

I'm calling it now - within the next 1 - 2 weeks we will see our second spike.

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Professor Bear on 09 May, 2020, 03:46:06 PM
You're assuming the second spike will be allowed to register (although if it does, I will put good money on immigrants being blamed, as we're already seeing lots of stories about how "18 million people have crossed our borders since lockdown began").  Massaging of figures by the likes of the BBC and Sky News has already been noted elsewhere, and Twitter is currently flooded with low-follower accounts keen to jump into threads to point out that people die "with" Covid 19, not "of", and that more people died in other flu seasons, and that they were "economically inactive" anyway, etc.  The level of gaslighting going on arguably qualifies as a pandemic in itself.
Someone described the media's role as waging psychological warfare on the public in order to end lockdown measures, and it's hard to disagree.  The big hurdle for them at the moment is that there's been a paradigm shift in the public's thinking - specifically that thousands dying in a flu season should not be considered "normal", which is one good thing to come of all this.  Naturally, it has to be undone as quickly as possible.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Funt Solo on 09 May, 2020, 04:41:54 PM
I have noticed "the media" peddling quite a lot of "when will lock-down end?" rhetoric. Are they echoing the thoughts of the public or trying to generate a story?

Here in the US the lock-down is definitely beginning to fail on a social level to an obvious degree: the roads are busier - the few shops that are open are packed to the gills unless you choose a seriously off-peak time, when they're then just busier than I've ever seen them.

With the populace just beginning to vote with their feet - I start to ask questions about who's suffering (beyond the obvious older people in care homes and medics), and find that's it's people who are out of a job or stuck in a dangerous job (meat-packing).

Perhaps the long-term way forward is to open things up more but bring in more stringent behavioral modifications and cleanliness routines. (Although, managing folk is proving to be as difficult as one might imagine - for everyone who dons a mask for the greater good there's some Scunthorpe that refuses - like, y'know, Trump.)

As ever: best of luck to all.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 09 May, 2020, 06:25:37 PM
Mrs IP just received a string of frankly terrifying texts, including a demand to isolate in the home AND from everyone else in the house. We have no idea what the reason is — that is not provided. Also, if she's so at risk, why the fuck did it take until now to be told? Argh. (And, yes, these are genuine NHS messages.)
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Pyroxian on 09 May, 2020, 06:37:31 PM
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 09 May, 2020, 06:25:37 PM
Mrs IP just received a string of frankly terrifying texts, including a demand to isolate in the home AND from everyone else in the house. We have no idea what the reason is — that is not provided. Also, if she's so at risk, why the fuck did it take until now to be told? Argh. (And, yes, these are genuine NHS messages.)

My (very healthy) sister got that the other weekend - when she phoned up on the Monday to check, she was told it was a mistake and that she should ignore the messages.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 09 May, 2020, 06:41:43 PM
Mrs IP is in reasonable health but has a slew of allergies and a mild respiratory condition. Her fear is that the combination of factors might make her tricky to treat. But we will be calling on Monday for sure. (We have also been very careful so far.)
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: von Boom on 09 May, 2020, 08:35:10 PM
Hopefully, it turns out to be a mistake, IP, like Pyro's sister. Regardless, I hope you and she are staying well.

Everyone else stay well as, er... well.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Professor Bear on 09 May, 2020, 08:51:31 PM
Best of luck to Mrs IP and the family.

Quote from: Funt Solo on 09 May, 2020, 04:41:54 PM
I have noticed "the media" peddling quite a lot of "when will lock-down end?" rhetoric. Are they echoing the thoughts of the public or trying to generate a story?

Leaving aside the self-perpetuating nature of the UK media cycle (in which a right-wing paper can run an op-ed on the front pages and the BBC then launders the story in their newspaper reviews piece from opinion to news simply by acknowledging it), generally when the story is some variation of "23% of Britons favor ending the lockdown", you can make an educated guess why the other 77% aren't mentioned in the headline, though obviously a bit more thought results in pondering how the question was phrased, as there's a big difference between "would you like the lockdown to end today?" and "do you think the lockdown should end today?"

It's over a week old, but this Ispos Mori polling review has a pretty unambiguous headline (https://www.ipsos.com/ipsos-mori/en-uk/britons-least-likely-believe-economy-and-businesses-should-open-if-coronavirus-not-fully-contained), though I am most surprised by the numbers for America.  A quick perusal of social media for more current polling data suggests only around 17% of the public unambiguously favor reopening, which I expected to be significantly higher given some of the stories being published and all the footage of gun nuts with assault rifles rushing town halls.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: paddykafka on 10 May, 2020, 10:11:56 AM
Quote from: shaolin_monkey on 09 May, 2020, 03:22:11 PM
I went for a cycle last night. It was nightmarish. 

I go out later when there are fewer pedestrians and cyclists, and usually manage a cycle once every couple of days. The roads are a lot quieter at dusk, and there's hardly anyone about. Usually.

This time, I cycled past, and on one occasion through, shitloads of parties. People partying in their front gardens, spilling out onto the pavement, people with chairs and tables laid out with food and drinks in front of their terraced house surrounded by fellow party-goers, AN ENTIRE STREET covered in bunting and rammed with people!!

It was insane.

I get the impression from Twitter that Cardiff wasn't alone in this idiocy.

I'm calling it now - within the next 1 - 2 weeks we will see our second spike.

Sadly, the depth of human stupidity and selfish disregard really doesn't surprise me at all. No doubt those same morons will be weeping and moaning when they or one of their own are afflicted by the virus. The only people I would feel sorry for are the entirely innocent individual who they might infect, or the frontline health worker who has to put their life at risk by treating those thoughtless miscreants.

Hope you're keeping well anyway, Shaolin Monkey. Might be an idea to reconsider your cycling route or time that you go out. Take care.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Funt Solo on 10 May, 2020, 04:08:51 PM
Quote from: Professor Bear on 09 May, 2020, 08:51:31 PM
...numbers for America.  A quick perusal of social media for more current polling data suggests only around 17% of the public unambiguously favor reopening, which I expected to be significantly higher given some of the stories being published and all the footage of gun nuts with assault rifles rushing town halls.

If the media image of the US was what the US was actually like I wouldn't live here. Hicks did a bit on the skewed perspective of the news media (https://youtu.be/tGjuPJskNRE) that's still relevant today. (Just try to ignore the bit where he suggests the cure for Aids is Jane Fonda having sex with someone she hates.)

Editorially, I get it: which news item do you run with? The 83% of people sitting dutifully at home trying their best not to spread a deadly virus as (for many) their economic situation slowly unravels. Or the gun-toting nut-jobs intimidating their elected representatives?

But not just for ratings: we should know about those gun-toting nut-jobs (https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/apr/30/michigan-protests-coronavirus-lockdown-armed-capitol), shouldn't we? I mean, if someone took over your local town hall with a shotgun, it would be strange if everyone was talking about what a lovely scone Mrs. Miggins had for lunch.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: MacabreMagpie on 10 May, 2020, 09:03:35 PM
Where the new rules have popped up online, one detail that's being reported is that you're allowed to meet up with one person outside of your household (with social distancing).

Boris didn't say that in the speech, did he?

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/10/uk-coronavirus-lockdown-what-has-boris-johnson-announced
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 10 May, 2020, 10:44:00 PM
‪Anyone else confused about this 'R' business and what it means in terms of reducing Covid-19 transmission and death?‬

I found this document from Welsh Government to be very useful. ‬

‪https://gov.wales/sites/default/files/publications/2020-05/technical-advisory-cell-modelling-update.pdf‬
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 10 May, 2020, 10:56:07 PM
Quote from: shaolin_monkey on 10 May, 2020, 10:44:00 PM
‪Anyone else confused about this 'R' business and what it means in terms of reducing Covid-19 transmission and death?‬

It's pretty straightforward: it's the number of people each infected person passes the infection on to. Greater than one, and the infection is rate is increasing. Less than one and the number of infected people is falling.

Of course, without mass-testing the general population continuously and more or less at random, there is literally no way of calculating 'R', which is just one way in which the UK government is continuing to fail on this matter. They talk about the 'R' number but they genuinely have no clue what it actually is.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 11 May, 2020, 08:32:06 AM
The danger is that they will wing it without real data. So we will be told R is 0.6 when it might be 1.1. We've already seen that we are alone in Europe in terms of the sheer number of excess deaths.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 11 May, 2020, 10:05:49 AM
The legions on that Twitter hurrahing a return to primary school (aka free daycare) on the basis that "the WHO say children can't transmit the virus" is terrifying. For clarity: this is a lie, no-one has said this.

And bad as things are in RoI, with the terrifyng prospect for me of being back on construction sites next week, let me tell you UK types that we are staring with open-mouthed horror at your situation. Even my mother, Daily Mail devotee, Brexit-supporter, isn't-Boris-a-card fangirl, rang me this morning to say "what the hell are they thinking".
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 11 May, 2020, 10:18:49 AM
We have a 5yo. Her school is an infant school, and has three classes per year. So that's 180 year R and year 1. There is a single-path road leading to the school, which is about 1m wide — about enough for two people side-by-side. The school itself has about 20 car parking spaces, and so people either have to park on the road and walk, or park in nearby streets and walk further. The school itself has a path around the main building that is, again, about enough for two people side-by-side.

Assuming social distancing will still be in place by 1 June, it is almost impossible to do drop-off/pick-up safely. The only way I can think of that this could work would be to close the road to traffic, and essentially have a long 'conga' of parents/kids a large distance away. Even that would be tricky, and would take an hour or more per session. It's not viable.

And this is just one of several schools in one town, and also ignores the vector of children spreading the virus and then giving that back to their parents.

In short, we're just back to herd immunity, and attempting to not overrun the NHS with cases. That's it. That's the plan. (Also, for the uninitiated, there are fines in place if you don't take your kids to school — and schools can also decide to not take your kids back in the following school year if you don't take them. Fines are currently on hold, but who knows when that law will change back again? Knowing the Tories, on 1 June...)
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Definitely Not Mister Pops on 11 May, 2020, 12:02:16 PM
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 11 May, 2020, 08:32:06 AM
The danger is that they will wing it without real data.

FTFY
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 11 May, 2020, 01:49:26 PM
Quote from: Professor Bear on 09 May, 2020, 08:51:31 PMBest of luck to Mrs IP and the family.
Well, she phoned our GP surgery. That was... something. The person on the other end suggested it "might be a hoax", and then offered for her to make an econsult appointment to ask our (new and mostly useless) GP to "go through your records" to see what the problem might be.

FFS.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: JayzusB.Christ on 13 May, 2020, 02:09:54 PM
Really hope all goes well with Mrs IP.

In other news, I've found myself inwardly applauding Piers Morgan as he lays into bullshitting Tories, rather than my usual inward desire to knee him hard in the balls.  Strange times indeed.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 13 May, 2020, 02:47:08 PM
Thanks.

As for Morgan, it shows he has the capability to be a great journalist. Mostly, though, he's just a git. Still, I'll take him being on the side of good for now.

Also, it looks like Johnson might have to go back to hospital again after the mauling he got from Starmer in PMQs.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Tjm86 on 14 May, 2020, 09:01:58 AM
Seems that Justice Department guidance is a lot clearer than Johnson's .... (https://newsthump.com/2020/05/13/judge-dredd-advised-to-wear-respirator-at-all-times-in-public/)

::)
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: sheridan on 14 May, 2020, 09:48:37 AM
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 13 May, 2020, 02:47:08 PM
As for Morgan, it shows he has the capability to be a great journalist. Mostly, though, he's just a git. Still, I'll take him being on the side of good for now.

It's like those films where the bad guy allies with the good guy to deal with a greater threat, but once the threat is over they go back to being a bad guy again (and they have the element of surprise as the good guy has got used to them being on the same side).
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: sheridan on 14 May, 2020, 09:50:52 AM
Quote from: Tjm86 on 14 May, 2020, 09:01:58 AM
Seems that Justice Department guidance is a lot clearer than Johnson's .... (https://newsthump.com/2020/05/13/judge-dredd-advised-to-wear-respirator-at-all-times-in-public/)

::)

Nice use of Mega-history there - davywavy is either a dedicated Squaxx, or well-versed in the ways of using wikipedia to get background for an article :-)
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 14 May, 2020, 11:00:14 AM
Quote from: sheridan on 14 May, 2020, 09:50:52 AM
Quote from: Tjm86 on 14 May, 2020, 09:01:58 AM
Seems that Justice Department guidance is a lot clearer than Johnson's .... (https://newsthump.com/2020/05/13/judge-dredd-advised-to-wear-respirator-at-all-times-in-public/)

::)

Nice use of Mega-history there - davywavy is either a dedicated Squaxx, or well-versed in the ways of using wikipedia to get background for an article :-)

Nah, has to be a genuine SdK - that's deep knowledge on display there.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: JayzusB.Christ on 14 May, 2020, 01:40:08 PM
Quote from: sheridan on 14 May, 2020, 09:48:37 AM
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 13 May, 2020, 02:47:08 PM
As for Morgan, it shows he has the capability to be a great journalist. Mostly, though, he's just a git. Still, I'll take him being on the side of good for now.

It's like those films where the bad guy allies with the good guy to deal with a greater threat, but once the threat is over they go back to being a bad guy again (and they have the element of surprise as the good guy has got used to them being on the same side).

I've seen it comparef to Godzilla versus Mothra.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 14 May, 2020, 03:45:12 PM
Quote from: sheridan on 14 May, 2020, 09:48:37 AM
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 13 May, 2020, 02:47:08 PM
As for Morgan, it shows he has the capability to be a great journalist. Mostly, though, he's just a git. Still, I'll take him being on the side of good for now.

It's like those films where the bad guy allies with the good guy to deal with a greater threat, but once the threat is over they go back to being a bad guy again (and they have the element of surprise as the good guy has got used to them being on the same side).

I was thinking he was like the guy in a huge epic who starts off as a complete bastard, and gradually over time starts redeeming himself.  Ultimately he ends up making the ultimate sacrifice, and completes his arc by going over the edge of a high place, dragging the truly evil dude with him.  Which hopefully in this case will be Cummings.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Professor Bear on 14 May, 2020, 06:20:00 PM
That an opportunist like Morgan is the highest-profile critic of the government says more about the state of the British media class than it does Morgan's abilities as an interviewer.  By all means enjoy the spectacle of his "taking down" Tory nonentities and giving the illusion of accountability, but it's merely a spectacle, nothing more.  He has always been dreadful and that hasn't changed.

Anecdotally, I can actually remember Morgan's tenure as a supposedly left-wing figure in British political journalism (which wasn't a difficult trick for a centre-right populist to pull off during the Blair premiership), as he made an effort to become a minor celebrity pundit back before such an ambition was made considerably easier by the rise of tv programming that required a factory line of minor celebrities to feed it.  He spent years at the helm of the Daily Mirror pulling the paper towards the right-wing politics of Blairism while simultaneously complaining about the Guardian being seen as the face of British leftism and winning awards that for some reason Morgan felt belonged to the Mirror purely because it had higher sales (though this animosity didn't stop him giving multiple interviews to the Guardian, in which he repeatedly and rather ungraciously lambasted the paper and its readership as out of touch and unrepresentative).  He came off as a preening arsehole, tbh, and I think most people dismissed him as destined for oblivion before tv's inexplicable hunger for angry gammon (like there was a fucking shortage) gave him a boost.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 14 May, 2020, 07:45:49 PM
"the right-wing politics of Blairism"

Seriously? I know you're no fan of Blair, but...
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Professor Bear on 14 May, 2020, 08:20:22 PM
Relatively speaking.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Funt Solo on 14 May, 2020, 08:25:18 PM
I recall people talking about New Labour having shifted the party well to the right as it tried to catch up with the Tories.

We have this:

QuoteA YouGov opinion poll in 2005 found that a small majority of British voters, including many New Labour supporters, place Blair on the right of the political spectrum.


And then his support for much of what Thatcher did - here, a quote from the horse's mouth:

Quotemuch of what she wanted to do in the 1980s was inevitable, a consequence not of ideology but of social and economic change

On the other hand, Labour (New or otherwise) always a much stronger supporter of public services than the Landed Toffs Tories.

Sources (that have sources):
  Blairism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blairism)
  Tony Blair (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tony_Blair)
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 14 May, 2020, 08:38:40 PM
Objectively, though, it's just bollocks that Blair was of the right. Yes, he wasn't at the Corbyn edge of the party, but Labour's policy platform during much of his time was progressive and helped a lot of people. That this was twinned with some more authoritarian (vs liberal) tendencies doesn't make him right wing either.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Funt Solo on 14 May, 2020, 09:42:37 PM
I guess it would be fair to say he's not right-wing by your definition but he is by some other peoples. I don't really have a clear idea in my head of where the divide would be between left and right. Or, as the aging barmaid (misnomer) at my first local would always tell me: "Shower o' c*nts!"

[I'm all distracted now by whether my "peoples" in that context requires an apostrophe.]
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 14 May, 2020, 10:41:25 PM
By some people's definition, even the Green Party are right wing. (Yes, I've had angry Corbynites lob that one my way.) But in any rational look at British politics, Blair was not right wing. To the right of his party, sure. But if he's right wing, that makes the Lib Dems of the era far right, and the Tories, what, actual extremists?
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: sintec on 15 May, 2020, 08:23:13 AM
I always felt Blair sat pretty firmly in the centre ground - which is certainly to the right of some of his parties members (and to the right of my own views) but he was no Rees-Mogg. The problem with it was it resulted in there being no real opposition from a left wing perspective for a long while and that arguably allowed the Overton window to be dragged towards the right. That is more a flaw in our 2 party system than anything else though.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Bolt-01 on 15 May, 2020, 10:55:54 AM
Ahem - take this to where it should be lads.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 15 May, 2020, 11:04:37 AM
Quote from: sintec on 15 May, 2020, 08:23:13 AMI always felt Blair sat pretty firmly in the centre ground
In a sense, that aligns well with the balance of the UK. He had mixed policy, hence presumably why he won a landslide. (One of the criticisms levelled at Corbyn — I think fairly — was his group's tendency towards talking about radicalism, which scares the shit out of people on the breadline regardless of the actual policies.)

QuoteThe problem with it was it resulted in there being no real opposition from a left wing perspective for a long while and that arguably allowed the Overton window to be dragged towards the right. That is more a flaw in our 2 party system than anything else though.
Well, quite — and that is something I will never forgive Blair's cabinet for. They could have enacted meaningful electoral reform. They chose not to. Not that Corbyn was any better for that, also being firmly against any change to the Commons.

Blair arguably also existed through a period where liberalism got a bit of a kicking, and I'm not sure we ever recovered from that. It'll be interesting to see where Starmer's Labour heads in that regard. (The Lib Dems are a busted flush, and the Greens aren't going anywhere electorally either. That said, the former kind of need to if Labour's going to have any chance of leading a coalition come the next general election.)
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 15 May, 2020, 11:34:30 AM
Not wanting to be that guy, but doesn't all this stuff belong on the Political Thread* so we can carry on depressing ourselves over the Coronapocalypse on this one?

*Yes, I get that it's impossible to talk this stuff without getting into the utter uselessness/callousness/bastardry of the current government, but this general chat about the left/right balance in UK politics seems to have drifted into Political Thread territory.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Bolt-01 on 15 May, 2020, 11:47:29 AM
I made that point earlier.

Come on lads - this thread is about the other apocalypse.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 15 May, 2020, 03:13:28 PM
Feel like I'm watching all the good work unravel here in RoI, as construction sites, hardwares, garden centres, farmers' markets (how do you maintain social distancing in a farmers' market?) and pet-hate fecking golf courses set to reopen Monday, and groups of 4 permitted to meet. Of course these places have already been packed with workers all this week as they get ready.

They might call this Phase 1, but as far as a lot of people are concerned lockdown ended the minute they outlined a strategy. No-one who has ever worked on a building site could believe social distancing will be observed, any more than HS&W is usually observed. And as for public transport, it was a joke before lockdown, it'll be a joke afterwards. I suffered through weeks of trying to keep my team safe in that environment back in March, I almost can't face it again.

Everyone busy patting each other's backs that the infection and hospitalisation numbers are way down.  Well there's a fecking reason for that. And as far as I can see that reason is now gone.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: JayzusB.Christ on 15 May, 2020, 03:25:27 PM
I know. I'm bracing myself for the spike and really hope my parents will be ok.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 15 May, 2020, 03:38:01 PM
Iceland, having done a pretty great job, is now planning opening itself up for... tourism. I don't even.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: sheridan on 15 May, 2020, 04:20:14 PM
Quote from: TordelBack on 15 May, 2020, 03:13:28 PM
Feel like I'm watching all the good work unravel here in RoI, as construction sites, hardwares, garden centres, farmers' markets (how do you maintain social distancing in a farmers' market?) and pet-hate fecking golf courses set to reopen Monday,


As a matter of interest, why do you hate golf courses?  I've never played anything past crazy golf-level, but I can think of worse things to 'build' on a flood plain - like paving and tarmaccing leaving rainwater nowhere to run to.  Though I may have a skewed perspective in that I used to walk through a municipal golf course which merged in to common land when I came home from school (just been looking in to it, not entirely sure how it works that they charge to play a game on land that you can walk through anyway) - so my perspective of golf is that it isn't entirely over-privileged elites jetting off to Scotland to play a round, or whatever a match of golf is called.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 15 May, 2020, 06:01:22 PM
Quote from: sheridan on 15 May, 2020, 04:20:14 PM
As a matter of interest, why do you hate golf courses?

Totally off-topic, but:

Vast swathes of the country fenced-off usually for the benefit of 'members' or high-paying guests, with all the vomit-inducing tang of cartelist businessmen and political lobbying, generally stripped of wildlife habitat, pollen-rich plants and historic landscape features,  presented in planning applications as 'amenity' and 'tourism' but frequently actually a cynical long-term play to bring open-space/greenbelt zoned land into a future development landbank.  They disproportionately favour coastal and foothills locations, breaking up community access to the sea and uplands, and use an unholy amount of pesticides and water.

If land is going to be unproductive it should be available to wildlife, plantlife and the community, not some low-density playground for adults pretending they're playing a sport, and presenting a barren butchered artificial grassland as somehow environmentally friendly.

But it's really a wholly irrational dislike that I've developed an unfair justification for: plenty of perfectly ordinary people enjoy golf  including members of my own family.  I just fecking hate golf courses.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: JayzusB.Christ on 15 May, 2020, 06:41:40 PM
Just looked at American Covid19 statistics there. They aren't even close to recovery and Trump is acting like the pandemic is a thing of the past.
You know, I wouldn't wish the illness on anybody, but if you had a gun to my head and I had to pick someone...
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Tjm86 on 15 May, 2020, 08:06:19 PM
Quote from: JayzusB.Christ on 15 May, 2020, 06:41:40 PM
They aren't even close to recovery and Trump is acting like the pandemic is a thing of the past.

I'm just waiting for the moment when they reveal that he has Alzheimers or some other euro-degenerative disease.  The man stood up on international television and suggested that disinfectant should be internally administered to Covid patients.  You cannot tell me that is the statement of someone who is in full control of his faculties.  Then he tries to pass it off as sarcasm?
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Funt Solo on 15 May, 2020, 08:29:09 PM
I think it's been said before - but it's easy to mix up Alzheimer's and ignorance. Trump is ignorant. The trying to pass it of as sarcasm bit is his acute narcissism. So, y'know, I'm not saying he's not ill.

I was trying to figure his motivations out the other day, and I think the Republicans are positioning themselves so that whenever things get better they'll be able to say "I told you everyone was overreacting. We've said so all along." And in the meantime they get to side with the almost 1 in 4 Americans who are currently out of work by suggesting lifting all the lock-down measures.

I've been playing American Idiot (https://youtu.be/OV64KqHTfYg) in my head to make it feel better.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Modern Panther on 16 May, 2020, 02:38:40 PM
Here's a lovely little ditty from Glasgwegian band Slime City, unlocking the complexity of government guidelines. Stay At Home If You Can Stay At Home.

https://twitter.com/michaelmphysics/status/1259602533196206080 (https://twitter.com/michaelmphysics/status/1259602533196206080)

I hope that's clear.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 17 May, 2020, 06:48:49 PM
A scathing write-up in the British Medical Journal:

https://www.bmj.com/content/369/bmj.m1932
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Richard on 17 May, 2020, 06:53:48 PM
QuoteBut it's really a wholly irrational dislike

No it isn't, you've convinced me. I previously had no opinion on the matter, and now I think they're awful!
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Funt Solo on 17 May, 2020, 07:35:31 PM
Quote from: shaolin_monkey on 17 May, 2020, 06:48:49 PM
A scathing write-up in the British Medical Journal:

https://www.bmj.com/content/369/bmj.m1932

It's incredibly damning.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 18 May, 2020, 09:41:07 AM
Quote from: Funt Solo on 17 May, 2020, 07:35:31 PM
Quote from: shaolin_monkey on 17 May, 2020, 06:48:49 PM
A scathing write-up in the British Medical Journal:

https://www.bmj.com/content/369/bmj.m1932

It's incredibly damning.

Yes.  We're already aware of the timeline of inaction and ineptitude from our government.  This amplifies it.

The whole thing reads as a list of utter failures to act, starting years before the virus even appeared. 

The final paragraphs, as well as laying out what is actually required, clearly show disdain and distrust for our current government.

Quote
In time, findings from the first population surveillance study will help effective targeting.25 Meaningless political soundbites promising to recruit 18 000 contact tracers, test 200 000 people a day, or invest in unjustified contact tracing apps, divert focus and could lead to more deaths.26 These headline grabbing schemes should be replaced by locality led strategies rooted in communicable disease control.

An effective pandemic response requires not only speed and clarity but also a willingness to accept mistakes and a commitment to international cooperation. Sharing the science and the uncertainties that inform political decisions will help rebuild lost public trust. Politicians and their advisers cannot hide behind science to avoid responsibility for making difficult decisions in a global crisis or merely repeat that they are following the science.

Above all, the response to covid-19 is not about flattening epidemic curves, modelling, or epidemiology. It is about protecting lives and communities most obviously at risk in our unequal society. The most serious public health crisis of our times requires a strong and credible public health community at the heart of its response. A UK government that prioritises the health and wellbeing of the public will see the importance of rebuilding the disempowered and fragmented infrastructures of its public health system.

Anything less is an insult to the tens of thousands of people who have lost their lives in a pandemic for which the UK was forewarned but not forearmed.

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 18 May, 2020, 01:30:33 PM
Well, my wife finally got her phone call from the NHS. She hasn't yet received a letter. She asked why she was on the list. The person on the other end didn't know. Kay noted our surgery didn't either. So the NHS removed her from the list without knowing anything about her medical history.

I am fucking furious. Said person noted that we should now get in touch with our GP, so he can comb through her records and request to be added back to said list. Surely, that should have been the bloody reverse of this? I am so sick of this county right now.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Tjm86 on 20 May, 2020, 07:22:21 AM
You know, as terrifying as the pandemic is, I can't help being more terrified by the attitude of Trump to this situation.  Leaving aside his allegedly sarcastic "have we tried injecting disinfectant" in the utterly inappropriate daily briefing setting, he now sees the US situation as a "badge of honour"!   :o

So the massive number of cases is down to the skills of testers in the states?  Nothing to do with actions that are allowing the virus to circulate so freely?  What is the massive number of deaths in the states down to?  The ability of Americans to let the virus kill them so efficiently?  "You know, Americans are so much better than other nationalities at letting this virus finish their lives.  It's a beautiful thing, a beautiful thing.  So many corpses.  No other nation in the world has so many corpses.  Let's Make America Dead Again ..."

He's debating whether or not to close his country to travellers from Brazil?  The rest of the world needs to be closing their borders to travellers from the US.  Sorry to fellow boarders who reside in that once-fine nation but with the head-banger you have in charge right now and some of his fellow travellers on the Road to Hell perhaps it is time to think infection vectors.

Anyone who is even remotely optimistic about a possible international solution to the Global Climate Crisis surely needs to reflect on what he and his government are doing.  Oh, and here in the UK we need to be thinking about how closely aligned our "government" wants to be with this man.

:o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: sheridan on 20 May, 2020, 09:39:59 AM
Quote from: Tjm86 on 20 May, 2020, 07:22:21 AM
You know, as terrifying as the pandemic is, I can't help being more terrified by the attitude of Trump to this situation.  Leaving aside his allegedly sarcastic "have we tried injecting disinfectant" in the utterly inappropriate daily briefing setting, he now sees the US situation as a "badge of honour"!   :o

That wasn't sarcastic - he meant it.  He only said it was sarcasm when he got called up on it.  This was only a week or so ago - don't fall for the 'new narrative'.

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 20 May, 2020, 12:06:31 PM
Quote from: Tjm86 on 20 May, 2020, 07:22:21 AMThe rest of the world needs to be closing their borders to travellers from the US.  Sorry to fellow boarders who reside in that once-fine nation but with the head-banger you have in charge right now and some of his fellow travellers on the Road to Hell perhaps it is time to think infection vectors.

While agreeing with your thoughts on Trump, if we're going to accept (even vaguely, which we probably shouldn't) the stated numbers of US and UK deaths per capita, then it would be UK travellers that should be excluded from the US.  Allowing for differences in rates of testing per capita, the total UK and US *infection rates* are on almost on a par, but looking the harder numbers of deaths per capita the UK's are much worse - almost twice as many (520 per million versus 277 per million).

I accept all the usual caveats about what is recorded as a C-19 death and what is not (for example, Ireland fares far worse than the US in those figures, but our testing numbers are good and we count everything and our numbers accord closely with excess recorded deaths against a 5 year average, so I'd trust those), but I'd still advise against condemning the US response from a position in the UK.

Given as it seems most social distancing has ended here this week (who knew that 'open the garden centres' was code for 'let your kids gather in large groups and hang out of each other'?), we'll not be long catching up.  If I read one more social-media post stating that our 'new infections' is the now the same as when as when lockdown started, so therefore lockdown should end, I'm going to go full futsie and bludgeon the next gang of pricks folicking outside my house.

It's a stomm-show all over.

Source: https://ourworldindata.org/coronavirus-data-explorer?zoomToSelection=true&deathsMetric=true&totalFreq=true&perCapita=true&smoothing=0&country=USA+GBR+CAN+BRA+AUS+IND+ESP+DEU+FRA+IRL (https://ourworldindata.org/coronavirus-data-explorer?zoomToSelection=true&deathsMetric=true&totalFreq=true&perCapita=true&smoothing=0&country=USA+GBR+CAN+BRA+AUS+IND+ESP+DEU+FRA+IRL)
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Tjm86 on 20 May, 2020, 01:32:39 PM
Quote from: TordelBack on 20 May, 2020, 12:06:31 PM
...  then it would be UK travellers that should be excluded from the US.

Fair point.  Then again, watching what has been happening in the US over the last few years I don't feel even the remotest desire to travel to that country.  And I'm saying that as the grandchild of a citizen.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 20 May, 2020, 01:36:11 PM
Well, mini-IP's infant school has presented its plan to parents for reopening on 1 June. It's all quite grim, but fortunately erring on the side of safety. The government of course wants all R and 1 students back full-time. That would be basically impossible in our kid's school (which has three streams of R, 1 and 2). So they've decided Year R only. Then they've split them in half — one lot do Mon/Tue and the others Thu/Fri, with a "deep clean" on Wednesday. Within those groups, they're split into classes, with staggered arrival and leaving times.

Parents will have to drop off children while adhering to 2m distancing and using a one-way system. In school, children will be limited to bringing in a light jacked, snack and drink. Nothing else will be allowed. Food will be 'picnic' lunches only, and served outside or in a classroom if it is raining. There will be no communal activities, no soft play/soft toys, and activities will be primarily desk-based, with children ideally mixing in groups of three, which they will stick to for the foreseeable.

I don't know about you, but this strikes me as a pretty miserable state for 5-year-olds. And yet I'm actually quite proud of my kid's school for doing their best after being dealt a horribly shitty hand by the government. (And on the basis of this plan, I can't imagine mini-IP — who's older — will be heading back any time soon.)
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 20 May, 2020, 02:58:08 PM
That's really very impressive.  Horrifying, but impressive. So horrifying that you wonder what the educational benefit of subjecting kids to that regime might be.  And at only two days a week, even the economic benefits (the important bit) seem marginal too. I'm as tired as the next person of having to function as a teacher in a dozen subjects as well as do my actual job, declining French irregular verbs in l'Imparfait never my forté and so forth, but even still...

And just now watching kids of that age rolling about on the green patch at the end of our estate in giant viral-conducive rucks, it all seems rather pointless.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 20 May, 2020, 03:58:49 PM
My guess is the thinking has a lot to do with formative years — ensuring kids have the basics they'll need growing up. But even that showcases a fundamental flaw at the heart of the British educational system, given that in, say, Finland, full formal education starts as late as seven — and Finnish kids on average end up smarter, happier, and better adjusted than British kids.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: moly on 21 May, 2020, 08:40:27 AM
I thought kids should go back as soon as they can for education not baby sitting, but with only around a month before the summer holidays it seems pointless, they aren't going to catch up on the last three months lost learning in that time
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 21 May, 2020, 09:09:57 AM
Can't speak for other jurisdictions, but effectively ALL the calls for it here are about free childcare (unlikely to be listened to) . Which motivation I really do understand, as I face into a day of troubleshooting time-lapse photography of sprouting radishes, '-y' plurals and isometric drawings of birdboxes in the kitchen, while my wife has a full day on zoom in the living  room and I try to finish and invoice two reports by tomorrow from my shed,  but I do hate to see it dressed up as concern about education.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 21 May, 2020, 10:40:24 AM
There is an element of freeing up parent time, and that in itself is not a bad thing. If schools are not open, at least one parent needs to stay home with the child(ren). That burden tends to fall more heavily on women, and becomes increasingly problematic in homes towards the working class end of the spectrum (where working from home is less likely) and in single-parent households of any stripe.

Elsewhere, we have exciting medical news. Mrs IP phoned the surgery. She'd been erroneously added by our GP, because he thought she was regularly taking a drug she sporadically takes. On that basis, she would have been at "high risk", whereas now she's merely at "moderate risk". Which is still not great. And I'm still annoyed that she was removed from the list unilaterally. Only there's a twist in the tale.

It turns out, the calls regarding the local list are not made by the NHS, nor anyone actually qualified, and have instead been assigned to a community support group. Taking the burden off of the NHS is a good thing — I'm all for that. But not erring on the side of caution is not.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Dandontdare on 21 May, 2020, 01:18:57 PM
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 18 May, 2020, 01:30:33 PM
Well, my wife finally got her phone call from the NHS. She hasn't yet received a letter. She asked why she was on the list. The person on the other end didn't know. Kay noted our surgery didn't either. So the NHS removed her from the list without knowing anything about her medical history.

I am fucking furious. Said person noted that we should now get in touch with our GP, so he can comb through her records and request to be added back to said list. Surely, that should have been the bloody reverse of this? I am so sick of this county right now.

Apologies if I'm missing something - she was taken off the list because you raised problems with her being on the list in the first place? I'm not sure what you were trying to achieve there.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 21 May, 2020, 02:05:54 PM
No. The course of events was:

- Mrs IP — who has a complicated medical history and multiple severe allergies — gets a series of frankly terrifying text messages, which basically recommend she immediately isolates, even from her own family. (With very few exceptions, the recommendations are as per someone who already has coronavirus — separate bathrooms; no going within several metres of even family members; etc.)
- One text then helpfully notes a letter will rock up, although it persists in its absence
- My wife calls the GP surgery, who are unsure why she's on the list, and suggest the calls are a hoax; they note that she can schedule something with a GP in the future if necessary, but they're very busy, and so on
- After a couple of weeks, we get a call from the 'NHS' (I later learn this has in fact all been outsourced to a local community group of volunteers)
- During the call, my wife notes she's not sure precisely why she's on the list, but notes her complex medical history, at which point the person on the other end of the line immediately and unilaterally removes her from the list and ends the call
- My wife manages to speak to our GP, who — fortunately — decides he put her on the list in error, purely due to the frequency in which a specific medication she uses is taken

We weren't "trying to achieve" anything. We were furious that someone — as it turns out, with no medical training — removed my wife from a high-risk list with no regard whatsoever to medical history, nor having any information as to why she was on the list in the first place. That seems appallingly reckless to me. Fortunately, she's 'only' moderately at risk (the second tier) rather than high risk (the first tier), but this whole episode again showcases the way in which this country is winging it, without due care to those who are supposed to be protected.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: The Doctor Alt 8 on 21 May, 2020, 02:10:09 PM


I can't add anything to this discussion. Our government bleeped up and is still bleeping up... partly because this country in my opinion simply cannot afford to be shut down any longer....

However on a personal note... My mother has a number of serious health conditions including Chronic obstructive pulmonary disease, one working lung, type 2 diabetes, high blood pressure, skin infections on her legs and movement so restricted she is housebound without the use of a mobility scooter. So needless to say with all the above listed conditions she is at the highest risk of contracting Corvid 19. However, despite filling in a form over 3 weeks ago at the relevant government website listing her as extremely vulnerable. We have yet to receive any advice on how to self isolate and the special measures I should take in order to prevent my mother from becoming infected. We haven't even had anyone approach us to ask if we required any kind of help.
In contrast two friends of mine who also fall into the extremely vulnerable category received information leaflets within days of the Corvid 19 lockdown was announced. Had we not been paying attention and my mother being housebound we might not have realized that she should self isolate. (Lucky neither of us are idiots) I only found out about the other special measures by having the leaflet read out to me over the phone by one of my friends.

I am now considering writing to my MP. Not being at least asked if we needed assistance is not acceptable. No wonder when I have applied for attendance allowance to help us financially my applications have been refused on the basis that she doesn't need help. Mother is a damned fall risk and I have to call for ambulance staff because she is too large for me to pick her up by myself. (Adrian said he could get her back up on his own..but I don't think he would be able to without him hurting himself so I wouldn't ask him for assistance)

We can't even afford one of those alarms because the monthly fee is £18 plus the telephone landline charges. I know it's probably too late for us to get assistance... but I want to try and make sure that should there be a second wave or even another disease (I don't think that this will be the last pandemic we face until the root cause of this virus is tackled... and that's going to be hard for a number of reasons) That my mother will get the support she needs.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 21 May, 2020, 03:03:48 PM
Anyone who reads this and still comes away thinking we need to ease lockdown is off their rocker. Or a Tory.

It estimates 61,000 new COVID-19 infections per week in England, and an average of 137,000 infected people between 4-17 May.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/conditionsanddiseases/bulletins/coronaviruscovid19infectionsurveypilot/england21may2020/pdf
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Tjm86 on 22 May, 2020, 07:12:41 AM
Quote from: The Doctor Alt 8 on 21 May, 2020, 02:10:09 PM
We can't even afford one of those alarms because the monthly fee is £18 plus the telephone landline charges. I know it's probably too late for us to get assistance...

I know that it is not often that we are able to provide more practical assistance than an ear but I would say that this is one of those occasions when an opportunity presents itself.  I would like to offer to pay towards this.  let's face it, if we add in landline charges of around £20pcm then the total monthly cost is going to be £38.  If 19 of us were to offer to support you then that would work out at about £2 each pcm. 

I would rather pay that for 12 months than towards Tom's Knighthood Fund.  I know that that money is going towards NHS charities and GoFundMe's profits but there is still a need for support for families.

Let us know how you feel about this.  If anyone else feels they could support a fellow Squaxx then maybe we can do something practical for a change.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 22 May, 2020, 09:18:41 AM
Yeah, count me in.  Great idea Tjm. It's a crap situation for any of us to be in, and the denizens of this board - former and current - have helped me out so much in the past that I'd be delighted to be able to throw a tiny drop of that back into the collective pot.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 22 May, 2020, 12:59:46 PM
Yep, count me in.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Definitely Not Mister Pops on 22 May, 2020, 03:02:08 PM
There are houses on my street completely decked out in blue bunting, windows with so many rainbows and posters of the government's advice to Stay Home, Save Lives, Protect the NHS, that no sunlight can get through. I understand why. I mean if I was spending as much time outside my house as these people I'd want it to look pretty. I think they have it in their heads that if they pay enough lip service to the guidelines and bang their pots loud enough on Thursday, that's enough and the virus will leave them alone. 

But it won't. I've just seen the fourth hearse of the month pull up on my street.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Hawkmumbler on 25 May, 2020, 04:12:38 PM
....Is Shark alright*, does anyone know? He appears to have been uncharacteristically quiet of late, and the debaty threads have been all the emptier for it...



*Loaded question, I know.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 25 May, 2020, 04:27:01 PM
I was only thinking that the other day. He's disappeared from FB too.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 25 May, 2020, 05:01:33 PM
Sharky says he's doing fine, but has had enough of the online life for the time being. We've all been there.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Leigh S on 25 May, 2020, 05:11:36 PM
This is excruciating - the only question needs asking here is "you are really telling us theat you have no support systems through your job that would have been able to get you any support you needed or transport you back and forth if required?"
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Leigh S on 25 May, 2020, 05:16:38 PM
How can he have been sure of being able to complete a 5 hour trip without stopping with a 4 year old Autistic child?  Such Bull shit!
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Definitely Not Mister Pops on 25 May, 2020, 05:18:04 PM
As my grandda used to say "Don't pish in me face and tell me it's raining"
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Leigh S on 25 May, 2020, 05:44:33 PM
Why did he take his 4 year old out for his eye sight test drive?  Such nonsense!!
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Colin YNWA on 25 May, 2020, 06:02:27 PM
Quote from: Leigh S on 25 May, 2020, 05:44:33 PM
Why did he take his 4 year old out for his eye sight test drive?  Such nonsense!!

I've kept out of this thread but this exactly this. We had supposedly some of the top political commentators and only one person even discussed the 'road test' to Barnard Castle with your wife and child in a journey one would assume (I don't know the trip so need to be careful) that had little baring on the actual jounrey he would be taking. No one raised much about that and its that, which more than anything else, suggests his statement is nothing more than another fabrication by this Government that has regularly run on lies and half truths.

They also didn't press him on the fact that he says there have been many mistruths reported about him. From what I can tell he confirmed many of those stories today. Made no reference to what is true and what is a lie - in the main part. He's just repeating the tactic of Trump and trying to make the press  and media the villian. They are guilty - in certain parts - of much but in this instance got a lot right it would seem?
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Leigh S on 25 May, 2020, 07:27:58 PM
I suppose this should be on the political thread, but if his story is true, why did the police visit on the 1st April, shortly after he got there and was then immediately ill for 10 days - how was he seen to be reported to teh Police if he was indeed self isolating?
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Definitely Not Mister Pops on 25 May, 2020, 07:29:19 PM
Columbo always gets his man because they always give way too detailed alibis for him to pick apart.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 25 May, 2020, 10:09:16 PM
He admitted at least twice to breaking the law. Still, Tory MPs seem happy.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: JayzusB.Christ on 25 May, 2020, 10:28:19 PM
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 25 May, 2020, 10:09:16 PM
He admitted at least twice to breaking the law. Still, Tory MPs seem happy.

Well, why wouldn't they. He is the Tory party these days - if he's happy, they're happy.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 26 May, 2020, 09:58:01 AM
So against a backdrop of 63,000 dead according to FT analysis, and pretty much every medical and healthcare institution decrying the actions of government as catastrophic, we have a weasel who helped make the rules, headed a huge PR campaign to get everyone to stay at home, and then flouted the rules as if he was somehow special, creating a real 'us and them' feeling, which will no doubt lead to more infections and deaths down the line, as folk think "If the government can't follow their own rules, why should I?"

One Conservative MP has enough moral fortitude to resign his position and head to the backbenches, at least.  Maybe more will follow.

It's so hard to separate the politics from the biggest healthcare disaster in over a century, isn't it?  Largely because the government are completely responsible for this clusterfuck.

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: JayzusB.Christ on 26 May, 2020, 10:38:46 AM
Meanwhile Johnson regrets the 'confusion' caused by Cummings' actions, because You People aren't sophisticated enough to understand which particular laws can be broken willy-nilly.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: CalHab on 26 May, 2020, 10:53:03 AM
Quote from: shaolin_monkey on 26 May, 2020, 09:58:01 AM
One Conservative MP has enough moral fortitude to resign his position and head to the backbenches, at least.  Maybe more will follow.

Yes, fair play to Douglas Ross. I'm not a fan, but he was right to resign in this case. His constituents are livid.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 26 May, 2020, 11:13:07 AM
Quote from: JayzusB.Christ on 26 May, 2020, 10:38:46 AM
Meanwhile Johnson regrets the 'confusion' caused by Cummings' actions, because You People aren't sophisticated enough to understand which particular laws can be broken willy-nilly.
He regrets the proles not knowing their place. Cummings is allowed to break the law, but we are not. It's really that simple. I just wish he'd have the balls to come out and say it.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: sheridan on 26 May, 2020, 12:40:08 PM
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 26 May, 2020, 11:13:07 AM
Quote from: JayzusB.Christ on 26 May, 2020, 10:38:46 AM
Meanwhile Johnson regrets the 'confusion' caused by Cummings' actions, because You People aren't sophisticated enough to understand which particular laws can be broken willy-nilly.
He regrets the proles not knowing their place. Cummings is allowed to break the law, but we are not. It's really that simple. I just wish he'd have the balls to come out and say it.

I wouldn't be surprised if it's come up on this thread or the main politics thread, but one of the main elements of a sincere apology is to regret what you've done.  Not regret how other people feel about what you've done - that's shifting the blame to them.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 26 May, 2020, 01:07:57 PM
Thanks to Steve Green for the idea.

(https://i.imgur.com/268jnJT.jpg)
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 26 May, 2020, 01:15:24 PM
Quote from: sheridan on 26 May, 2020, 12:40:08 PMI wouldn't be surprised if it's come up on this thread or the main politics thread, but one of the main elements of a sincere apology is to regret what you've done.  Not regret how other people feel about what you've done - that's shifting the blame to them.
Which is a problem if you're both incapable of telling the truth and also incapable of apologising.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Colin YNWA on 26 May, 2020, 01:16:00 PM
Okay well shaolin_money is a genius - can I steal that for Facebook?
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 26 May, 2020, 01:20:25 PM
Of course!
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Colin YNWA on 26 May, 2020, 01:32:22 PM
Quote from: shaolin_monkey on 26 May, 2020, 01:20:25 PM
Of course!

Cool - stolen and I may or may not have given credit...
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: JayzusB.Christ on 26 May, 2020, 02:13:03 PM
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 26 May, 2020, 11:13:07 AM
Quote from: JayzusB.Christ on 26 May, 2020, 10:38:46 AM
Meanwhile Johnson regrets the 'confusion' caused by Cummings' actions, because You People aren't sophisticated enough to understand which particular laws can be broken willy-nilly.
He regrets the proles not knowing their place. Cummings is allowed to break the law, but we are not. It's really that simple. I just wish he'd have the balls to come out and say it.

That's the thing. There is no confusion, Boris, you patronising prick. How the law works is clearer than ever.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 26 May, 2020, 02:43:54 PM
Magnificent use of one of my all-time favourite cmics spreads.  Brilliant work, SM.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: JayzusB.Christ on 26 May, 2020, 02:54:50 PM
It's outstanding alright! I'll be sharing too
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 26 May, 2020, 04:15:06 PM
One suggestion - change the 'A' in "City of the Damned" to an 'O'.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 26 May, 2020, 04:35:29 PM
Quote from: TordelBack on 26 May, 2020, 04:15:06 PM
One suggestion - change the 'A' in "City of the Damned" to an 'O'.

Genius.

Done.

(https://i.imgur.com/glRYimt.jpg)
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Colin YNWA on 26 May, 2020, 05:15:23 PM
Oh they didn't think it was possible - but it gets BETTER!!!!
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: JayzusB.Christ on 26 May, 2020, 06:11:48 PM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 26 May, 2020, 05:15:23 PM
Oh they didn't think it was possible - but it gets BETTER!!!!

Took the words right out of my, er, keyboard.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: DaveGYNWA on 27 May, 2020, 10:47:33 PM
BOOM!!!
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 28 May, 2020, 08:55:41 AM
So with the FT's detailed analysis of excess deaths from C19, the UK now has the worst per capita death toll in the world.  People shouting 'but China is lying' should first wonder why they are comparing a wealthy western nation with China, and then consider how China would have had to cover up 1.3 million deaths to match the UK rate.

Absolutely tragic. That the whole government isn't already hanging from lampposts is a testament to .... I don't know what.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Rately on 28 May, 2020, 09:16:55 AM
Quote from: TordelBack on 28 May, 2020, 08:55:41 AM
So with the FT's detailed analysis of excess deaths from C19, the UK now has the worst per capita death toll in the world.  People shouting 'but China is lying' should first wonder why they are comparing a wealthy western nation with China, and then consider how China would have had to cover up 1.3 million deaths to match the UK rate.

Absolutely tragic. That the whole government isn't already hanging from lampposts is a testament to .... I don't know what.

Just horrifying.

A tragic, preventable loss of life on a major scale. To watch the daily briefings, and some in the press, you would think it was all going to plan. Cynically, maybe for some in the Tory party, and among their donors, it is.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 28 May, 2020, 09:29:26 AM
They're fighting a PR war. That's all it is to them at this point. The one good thing is that the public en masse appears to be seeing through it to some extent. The polling shift is almost unprecedented, and the Tory lead has dropped around nine points. It's still not enough: that result would suggest a majority of 20–30, unless the Lib Dems have also had a bounce. (If Con 44 and Lab 38 also has Lib 12 rather than ~7, that's probably enough to tip the scales. Or Con 42/Lab 40 would swing it as well.)

I'm just happy we have the internet. If not, this lot would be able to go full 1984 on COVID and everything else, rather than just trying to convince everyone they don't believe their own ears and eyes.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 28 May, 2020, 09:52:56 AM
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 28 May, 2020, 09:29:26 AM
I'm just happy we have the internet. If not, this lot would be able to go full 1984 on COVID and everything else, rather than just trying to convince everyone they don't believe their own ears and eyes.

And true friend to the UK Trump is working on that one as we speak.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Rately on 28 May, 2020, 10:14:51 AM
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 28 May, 2020, 09:29:26 AM
They're fighting a PR war. That's all it is to them at this point. The one good thing is that the public en masse appears to be seeing through it to some extent. The polling shift is almost unprecedented, and the Tory lead has dropped around nine points. It's still not enough: that result would suggest a majority of 20–30, unless the Lib Dems have also had a bounce. (If Con 44 and Lab 38 also has Lib 12 rather than ~7, that's probably enough to tip the scales. Or Con 42/Lab 40 would swing it as well.)

I'm just happy we have the internet. If not, this lot would be able to go full 1984 on COVID and everything else, rather than just trying to convince everyone they don't believe their own ears and eyes.

That people can compare the numbers, and still not see the catastrophe of a response from the Government frightens me.

I only hope that the majority of people now see the Tory party for what they are.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Rately on 28 May, 2020, 12:14:10 PM
I can't believe Matt Hancock's conduct during his interview with Kay Burley. Just disgusting.

They really are the worst people. 
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: JayzusB.Christ on 28 May, 2020, 12:51:00 PM
I've just seen the clip. Truly deplorable.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Rately on 28 May, 2020, 01:01:14 PM
Quote from: JayzusB.Christ on 28 May, 2020, 12:51:00 PM
I've just seen the clip. Truly deplorable.

Just unbelievable. If you were his SPAD, you would surely nip the fecker the minute that interview had finished up. The arrogance, nonchalance and superior attitude. Christ.

Disgusting. They really have no concept of the suffering and horror they have helped bring about. They'll get away with it, too. I have no doubt of that.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 28 May, 2020, 04:56:29 PM
There has to be some swift charlie action going on before that interview, surely?  Feck, when you make a chat with Kay Burley on Sky News look like hard-nosed investigative journalism you must know you've lost the thread entirely.  There was nothing in Thick Of It to prepare us for this.

I'm very conscious that the previously-bottomless slops tray of the Tory party has been drained into a half-pint glass to create the current cabinet, but is there really, truly, no-one else available other than these clowns? I used to wince with anticipated embarrassment when Irish politicians showed up on international TV, but even Ahern at his most hands-in-raincoat-pockets-looking-for-the-Paddy-Power-pencil or Cowen at his most hung-over-waiting-for-the-offy-to-open were never as outrageously disgraceful as what the UK is sending out to represent it now.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: moly on 29 May, 2020, 08:38:42 AM
So we had a letter in the post a few week ago inviting our daughter aged 9 to have a covid19 test. My daughter has been at home self isolating for 6 weeks and me and my wife have social distancing and only my wife has been out to do the weekly shopping. Test has come back that she is positive so this would mean we all have it.

So be careful we have had no symptoms luckily but at the same time it's like a huge weight has been lifted as my anxiety level were high
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Rately on 29 May, 2020, 09:33:14 AM
Quote from: moly on 29 May, 2020, 08:38:42 AM
So we had a letter in the post a few week ago inviting our daughter aged 9 to have a covid19 test. My daughter has been at home self isolating for 6 weeks and me and my wife have social distancing and only my wife has been out to do the weekly shopping. Test has come back that she is positive so this would mean we all have it.

So be careful we have had no symptoms luckily but at the same time it's like a huge weight has been lifted as my anxiety level were high

Glad to hear your anxiety has eased, Moly. Hope everyone doing good and take care.

Makes me wonder how many of us have been so very careful, but somehow still contracted it and are spreading the bloody thing about.

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 29 May, 2020, 09:57:24 AM
moly: I hope you're all well and keep safe, and that you manage to get through this without catching this rotten virus—or at least without getting sick from it. (One of my hopes through this is that something along the lines of the original thinking turns out to be true—that a lot of people can get the virus without being horribly ill.)
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: moly on 29 May, 2020, 11:44:24 AM
Indigoprime - I think me and my wife must of have had it, my daughter has only been in contact with us for over two months
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: sheridan on 29 May, 2020, 12:03:01 PM
Quote from: Rately on 28 May, 2020, 01:01:14 PM
Quote from: JayzusB.Christ on 28 May, 2020, 12:51:00 PM
I've just seen the clip. Truly deplorable.

Just unbelievable. If you were his SPAD, you would surely nip the fecker the minute that interview had finished up. The arrogance, nonchalance and superior attitude. Christ.

Disgusting. They really have no concept of the suffering and horror they have helped bring about. They'll get away with it, too. I have no doubt of that.


They have a concept.  They just don't care.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Rately on 29 May, 2020, 12:04:49 PM
Quote from: sheridan on 29 May, 2020, 12:03:01 PM
Quote from: Rately on 28 May, 2020, 01:01:14 PM
Quote from: JayzusB.Christ on 28 May, 2020, 12:51:00 PM
I've just seen the clip. Truly deplorable.

Just unbelievable. If you were his SPAD, you would surely nip the fecker the minute that interview had finished up. The arrogance, nonchalance and superior attitude. Christ.

Disgusting. They really have no concept of the suffering and horror they have helped bring about. They'll get away with it, too. I have no doubt of that.


They have a concept.  They just don't care.

True, Sheridan.

They really just don't give a damn.

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: The Doctor Alt 8 on 29 May, 2020, 02:10:55 PM
Quote from: Tjm86 on 22 May, 2020, 07:12:41 AM
Quote from: The Doctor Alt 8 on 21 May, 2020, 02:10:09 PM
We can't even afford one of those alarms because the monthly fee is £18 plus the telephone landline charges. I know it's probably too late for us to get assistance...

I know that it is not often that we are able to provide more practical assistance than an ear but I would say that this is one of those occasions when an opportunity presents itself.  I would like to offer to pay towards this.  let's face it, if we add in landline charges of around £20pcm then the total monthly cost is going to be £38.  If 19 of us were to offer to support you then that would work out at about £2 each pcm. 

I would rather pay that for 12 months than towards Tom's Knighthood Fund.  I know that that money is going towards NHS charities and GoFundMe's profits but there is still a need for support for families.

Let us know how you feel about this.  If anyone else feels they could support a fellow Squaxx then maybe we can do something practical for a change.

Sorry I haven't replied earlier ...But I lost internet again! (  Have to rely on BT Hotspot for it... a friend lets me use his infinity package code... ) It's a very kind offer but... Mother would never allow it. 
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 29 May, 2020, 04:30:17 PM
She doesn't have to know.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: The Doctor Alt 8 on 30 May, 2020, 06:29:04 AM

I think the hard wear that would need to be installed would be a dead give away....
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: JayzusB.Christ on 30 May, 2020, 11:29:58 AM
Quote from: The Doctor Alt 8 on 30 May, 2020, 06:29:04 AM
Mother would never allow it.  [/font][/size][/color]

I honestly thought you were quoting Norman Bates till I saw your next post. Sorry, says more about me than you
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: The Doctor Alt 8 on 31 May, 2020, 10:58:38 PM
 :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 01 June, 2020, 11:58:16 AM
Another damning article from the British Medical Journal:

"Scientists and doctors in advisory positions face a dual obligation to the state and to the public. But what happens when the government's integrity no longer matches your personal or professional integrity, when your public accountability seems greater than that of the politicians you advise? Do you fight from within? Do you speak out, and even resign? What of the leaders of medical organisations working closely with the government? Regrettably, questions of conscience and duty must now be addressed."

https://www.bmj.com/content/369/bmj.m2102
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 01 June, 2020, 04:16:28 PM
The Association of Directors of Public Health (ADPH) have issued this stark warning to the government (See link for full statement):

"The ADPH is calling for full implementation of all Phase 2 measures to be delayed until further consideration of the ongoing trends in infection rates and the R level gives more confidence about what the impact of these will be. There also must be a renewed drive to promote the importance of handwashing, social distancing and self-isolating if symptomatic, positive for COVID, or a contact of someone who is. And, additional assurance is required that the NHS Test and Trace System will be able to cope with the scale of the task.

The risk of a spike in cases and deaths – and of the social and economic impact if we have to return to stricter lockdown measures – cannot be overstated; this needs to be understood not only by the public but also by the Government."
https://www.adph.org.uk/2020/05/adph-presidential-blog-a-time-for-steady-leadership-careful-preparation-and-measured-steps/
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 03 June, 2020, 12:42:32 PM
A message from our very own Eamonn Clarke:

(https://i.imgur.com/bWpPRAd.jpg)

Thanks Eamonn!
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Bolt-01 on 03 June, 2020, 01:38:15 PM
Clap, clap clap.

Eamonn is spot-on here. The amount of folk talking as if this is all over is frankly, astounding.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 03 June, 2020, 02:07:03 PM
We have 48 hours to decide whether mini-IP is going back to school. I've a horrible feeling her mental health is starting to take a beating from all this weirdness. She's increasingly sad and snappy, although often puts a brave face on things. Our ongoing issues with immigration can't be helping the house mood. Even so, I can't imagine she'll be going back next week.

Perhaps at least the change in the weather might slow the spread of the virus — unless it prompts idiots meeting outside to instead all head to IKEA.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: von Boom on 03 June, 2020, 02:09:20 PM
Quote from: shaolin_monkey on 03 June, 2020, 12:42:32 PM
A message from our very own Eamonn Clarke:

(https://i.imgur.com/bWpPRAd.jpg)

Thanks Eamonn!
Can I have permission to print this so I can nail it to the forehead of wankers who think the warm weather means no chance of infection?
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: JayzusB.Christ on 03 June, 2020, 03:34:59 PM
Just the nail would be enough.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Eamonn Clarke on 03 June, 2020, 07:44:50 PM
Please print, share, tweet, TikTok, rigellian hotshot, whatever it takes to get the message out there.

Stay safe, chums.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: von Boom on 03 June, 2020, 11:15:31 PM
Cheers, Eamonn. Thanks for all your work and keep well.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 04 June, 2020, 11:14:29 AM
So, how's the U.K. currently looking re the virus?

- the Financial Times analysis reckons we've had 64,500 deaths due to COVID19. This is the second highest no. of deaths in the world.

- We now have the highest per capita deaths in the world at approx. one death per 1000 citizens.

- Yesterday we had more deaths in a 24 hour period than all 27 EU countries COMBINED - 359 versus 314 (see pic).

- Italy had zero deaths reported, yet they are keeping schools closed until September.

- The U.K., despite still having well over 1,500 new cases per day, is opening schools.

In PMQs yesterday, Johnson said:

"I take full responsibility for everything this government has been doing in tackling coronavirus, and I'm very proud of our record. If you look at what we have achieved so far, it is very considerable."


(https://i.imgur.com/MlPZdsv.jpg)


This is utter madness.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 04 June, 2020, 11:40:23 AM
I wrote to our school yesterday, confirming mini-IP will not be returning at this time. Other parents are wavering. Really, it's not fair to make this a judgement call for schools and then for parents. It's also not fair to not recognise that it is literally impossible to have a system where you implement social distancing in schools to any degree, and even at drop-off/pick-up. (Our school is ambitiously hoping 30 kids will be dropped off in each of four five-minute slots. Just variance in people's time-keeping devices showcases that to be essentially unviable. But beyond that, the school is also down a road that has a single path barely wide enough for two people. That means even if you can socially distance within the school grounds — vanishingly unlikely — it's going to be literally impossible to do that to and from the school. And that's just one school in one town.

Frankly, I'm more impressed with the north east than the south east, given that according to The Guardian yesterday, the former has basically said "fuck this" and kept schools closed. (Natch, our council is blue, hence pushing for schools to be opened as soon as possible.)

As for Johnson taking responsibility, that comment will come back to haunt him, and he'll spin his way out. His palpable anger at Starmer yesterday was something to behold. Asked a couple of basic questions, he responded with abject fury. Some have argued he's playing to the crowd, and his base will eat up that aggression. To me, he just looked like an arsehole who wanted to punch Starmer in the face for asking a simple question. That's not leadership.

But most damning is that graph. For weeks, the UK was slamming Italy and Spain. Now we're, what, doing well? Really? More deaths than the ENTIRE EU27 combined? What will the excuse be now? Two-week lag? That we're apparently the most densely populated country on the entire planet, according to some nay-sayers? Probably it's the EU's fault somehow. Or migrants. (Sadly, the latter is being used to apportion blame by some. If only all those migrants weren't here, see, we'd have fewer people and therefore wouldn't have had as many cases.)
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 04 June, 2020, 12:05:30 PM
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 04 June, 2020, 11:40:23 AMThat we're apparently the most densely populated country on the entire planet, according to some nay-sayers?

And so easy to disprove: UK is roughly the 50th most densely populated globally, as a blunt instrument of land area to population. Looking solely at urbanisation, it's behind Netherlands and Belgium, and perennial bugbear London weighs in at about 40-45th most dense city depending on your criteria, way behind Paris and Athens, somewhere between greater Barcelona and Madrid.  In fact, even going by most dense single square kilometre, London is only 15th in Europe. No matter what permutations you run, they're never going to support this conclusion.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 04 June, 2020, 01:42:36 PM
Turns out Spain was fiddling its numbers in a big way. I suspect this will be spun as: SEE? We are doing AMAZING after all. What it really means is that, no, the graph that shows we have more daily deaths than the EU is not correct — but we are still doing very badly, and are setting things up for worse to come.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 04 June, 2020, 01:44:51 PM
Yes - their PR based data manipulation actions have made it much harder for us to use them as a benchmark for how appalling murderous our own PR-spinning bullshit government is.


Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: The Enigmatic Dr X on 04 June, 2020, 01:50:13 PM
If not now, when?

If we don't re-open schools and shops and travel and all that jazz now, when do we?

Because the virus hasn't changed and neither has our immune system. Lockdown was to flatten the curve of cases, not reduce the number. It is about preparation, not prevention. Somewhere along the line that message has been lost.

This is a Bad and Terrible Thing. But we either all stay at home or we do not. We either allow our economy to collapse or we take steps to prevent collateral damage - health and financial - by implementing a return of school and work and other services with distancing and other measures to reduce risk.

That risk is here and will not go away by staying at home. We can't do that forever.

For those who are worried, how long in lockdown is long enough? And when will you be satisifed it is safe? Do you think we will have jobs at that point? Genuine questions.

And while the answer may be "until we have a vaccine"... well, there are not a lot of RNA vaccines out there and a vaccine is most likley going to be like the flu jab. It will not reduce severity but is not a pancea.

This is here. It is not going away. We need to accept that.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: The Enigmatic Dr X on 04 June, 2020, 01:52:43 PM
ADDENDUM:

Yes, we need to follow the rules. Let's enforce them.

Yes, we need to protect the vulnerable. Let's protect them.

No, the healthy cannot stay at home because they are worried. We need the tax.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 04 June, 2020, 02:05:02 PM
Personally, I'd like to open things back up against when the scientists aren't wholeheartedly advising against doing so. They said mid-June as a starting point for schools. So the government ignored them, to distract from Cummings. With other bullshit rattling around, we now have Johnson arguing to ditch the 2m rule to allow pubs to re-open.

Other countries look on in horror. Many have tracking and tracing in place. They will be able to lockdown regions when cases explode. They will start from a much smaller number anyway. Us? We have yet to reach that point. Moreover, we had a two-week lag that appears to have been forgotten.

I'm not naïve. I know everyone cannot stay home forever. By the same token, the UK numbers are still really bad, and if we pull the trigger too soon, we will see an exponential explosion in cases that'll put us right back where we started.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 04 June, 2020, 02:08:26 PM
Quote from: The Enigmatic Dr X on 04 June, 2020, 01:50:13 PM
For those who are worried, how long in lockdown is long enough? And when will you be satisifed it is safe? Do you think we will have jobs at that point? Genuine questions.

When? When we have an adequate, functioning track and trace system. When the government is mass-testing the general population continuously, and effectively at random. By focussing on testing symptomatic patients, the government is ignoring the 5-10 days when people are asymptomatic but contagious.

Detecting a new spike in infections at the point where people start pitching up in hospital is basically two weeks too late and all you can do is lock everything down again because you've lost control of it.

Other nations have managed to implement this sort of strategy, whilst all ours does is fudge the stats to make it look like it's not completely incompetent.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Professor Bear on 04 June, 2020, 03:16:16 PM
I don't mean to sound petulant, but I don't believe herd immunity was ever seriously considered, I think it was just a phrase Johnson latched onto to justify doing nothing.  I think he just wanted to get the deaths out of the way and done with - "Get Covid Done!", so to speak - so he could go back to business as usual.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 04 June, 2020, 03:29:06 PM
Quote from: Professor Bear on 04 June, 2020, 03:16:16 PM
I don't mean to sound petulant, but I don't believe herd immunity was ever seriously considered, I think it was just a phrase Johnson latched onto to justify doing nothing.  I think he just wanted to get the deaths out of the way and done with - "Get Covid Done!", so to speak - so he could go back to business as usual.

I think that's a fair guess as to why it appealed to Johnson. I think it appealed to the government's eugenicist-in-chief Dominic Cummings for altogether more despicable reasons.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 04 June, 2020, 06:45:45 PM
Quote from: The Enigmatic Dr X on 04 June, 2020, 01:50:13 PM
If not now, when?

If we don't re-open schools and shops and travel and all that jazz now, when do we?
This is here. It is not going away. We need to accept that.

When?

I suggest we turn to the medical and scientific experts for that answer.

Here's two documents that will help with your question, both from the Associations of Directors of Public Health Health:

https://www.adph.org.uk/2020/05/adph-presidential-blog-a-time-for-steady-leadership-careful-preparation-and-measured-steps/

"The Government has set five tests, each of which must be regularly reviewed as restrictions are adjusted and eased. Here is our current assessment:

Firstly, the pressure on the NHS – and those that tirelessly and expertly work within it – has been significant but it has been able to cope with those who unfortunately need hospital treatment for the effects of COVID-19. The number of people in hospitals with COVID-19 is falling, and beds are available for those that require them.

Secondly, there must be a sustained and consistent fall in the daily death rate. While the first peak in deaths has passed, the downward trend is slow – particularly in care settings. Deaths are a measure of what happened roughly two weeks before – the effect of easing measures now will only become evident in two weeks.

The critical debate is about the third test – ensuring the rate of transmission of the infection continues decreasing to manageable levels (taken to mean R being well below 1). The rapid and multiple ways in which measures are being eased is likely to make it difficult to judge the cumulative impact on R. As we saw in March, R can go above 1 in a very short space of time – and once it does it can take many months to bring it back down. The room for manoeuvre is tight.

The fourth aspect, ensuring supply of tests and PPE is able meet future demand, remains an enormous challenge. PPE manufacturing and supply chains are stronger, but shortages are still being reported and it is not clear that supply can meet new demand as different parts of society, public services and the economy open. While testing capacity has undoubtedly increased, we are not yet confident that the current testing regime is sufficiently effective in getting the priority tests done and the results to where they are needed to enable swift action.

Finally, the fifth test. A second peak cannot be ruled out – whether it will overwhelm the NHS is an important question to ask. But perhaps the even bigger one is, do we really want the same number of deaths again? The scale to date represents an unimaginable tragedy and we must do everything possible to limit further loss of life.

The ADPH has argued that an effective contact tracing system is vital to keep R consistently below one. We set out a 'Statement of Principles' to outline what needs to be in place to make this work. "


TL:DR? Test/track/trace/quarantine - get R rate well below 1.


So here's what's required re getting that R under control - the 'Statement of Principles' mentioned above :


https://www.adph.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/ADPH-Statement-of-Principles-Contact-Tracing.pdf

As you can see, a long 'things to do' list, the majority of which we know the government is either not doing, or doing ineffectively.

So to come back to the question of 'when'? that unfortunately relies on what the government does next, but with over 1,500 new infections a day and our death rate going back up, the answer is definitely not 'now', or 'next week', and probably not even 'next month'.

At the end of the day, we need to avoid another 64,500 deaths.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 05 June, 2020, 11:44:29 AM
There's a great thread here from Nick Price at the ONS about how the excess death data, mentioned so often in the FT analysis, is pointing more and more to unrecorded COVID19.


https://twitter.com/nickstripe_ons/status/1268823005305733125?s=21
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 05 June, 2020, 12:16:14 PM
Quote from: shaolin_monkey on 05 June, 2020, 11:44:29 AM
There's a great thread here from Nick Price at the ONS about how the excess death data, mentioned so often in the FT analysis, is pointing more and more to unrecorded COVID19.


https://twitter.com/nickstripe_ons/status/1268823005305733125?s=21

I'm not being facetious, or detracting from your point in any way, but it's been obvious to anyone with a pocket calculator and a working knowledge of percentages that cases are massively under-reported in the UK.

I took a look at the numbers from The European Centre for Disease Prevention and Control (https://www.ecdc.europa.eu/en/geographical-distribution-2019-ncov-cases) last week (I'm not doing the numbers again, because the point still stands).

Those numbers, using the official government stats gave a mortality rate ((No of Deaths/No of Cases)*100) of over 15%. There is literally no way that the mortality rate is 15% — the average for that whole table was 3.6%.

If we assume the UK mortality rate was actually 3.6% and that the fatality figure of ~37K was accurate, then a mortality rate of 3.6% would mean roughly 1.4M infections. Of course, that 3.6% number is still too high — other nations are almost certainly under-reporting cases, too.

Most qualified virologists whose opinion I've read seem to think the CV19 mortality rate is probably about 0.9%. If ~37K represented 0.9% of the total number of infections, then the total number of UK infections was about four million, compared to the ~267K confirmed cases the government had reported at that time.

Now, before someone comes along and says "Yes, but statistics are more complicated than that" — I know. My point is that the real number of infections could be 1M, it could be 4M — either is plausible working from the official death toll, which, in itself, is likely an under-estimate.

When some twat from the government stands at that podium every afternoon and talks about the 'R' number, remember that they have literally no idea what the 'R' number is because they have no idea what the actual number of infections is, and they can't conceivably know that until they're mass-testing the general population at random, whether they're symptomatic or not.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 05 June, 2020, 12:33:05 PM
Yep, 100% agree. But as you say, the problem has been proving that due to lack of testing. The Twitter thread I posted discusses how to extrapolate the actual number of COVID deaths without a positive COVID test having been attributed to that death.

While, as you say, it's possible to come to an overall conclusion with the help of a pocket calculator and the average deaths over the last ten years for Jan - May versus the same months this year, nailing the figures as closely as possible, and working out exactly which categories (age, gender, BAME etc) were affected and to what extent, is going to be immensely useful going forward.


On a related note, here's what the chief reporter at the New Scientist has to say about it all:

https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg24632853-300-why-have-there-been-so-many-coronavirus-deaths-in-the-uk/

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 05 June, 2020, 01:19:37 PM
"Playing catch-up"

That's the key thing. Portugal saw what was going on next door, went "fuck that" and locked down pretty much right away. The UK saw a storm coming, and rather than take advantage of that two weeks by closing the borders (something that Brexiters seem to like yelling about for ages anyway) and temporarily blowing up the economy, we did... nothing. Oh, sorry—not true. We had a PM telling people to wash their hands, while boasting about shaking hands with everyone.

Of course, by that time, COVID was already here and in Portugal anyway. The difference is that our lot didn't respond. Even now, they're not. Masks on public transport? Great. But my local Facebook group had someone having a go at me about masks earlier, because the govt has _only_ said to use them on public transport, and so I _shouldn't_ be wearing one when shopping. Fuck that. And it displays what a shitshow our govt's comms still is.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Definitely Not Mister Pops on 05 June, 2020, 04:00:16 PM
I expect the tories (Gove most likely) will try to tell us that the numbers are actually being overreported.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 05 June, 2020, 07:06:11 PM
Anyway, it's good to see everyone is working really hard to avoid a second wave, by keeping this first one going as long as possible,
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 06 June, 2020, 11:18:56 AM
Another article from the British Medical Journal about the 'when' of easing lockdown.

Again, the medical profession is saying 'definitely not now', and again refers to the need for a cohesive national, localised, and community network of test and trace in place to avoid a horrendous second wave. They say categorically it is not in place yet. Some sources say it may not be in place until September.

https://www.bmj.com/content/369/bmj.m2202?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social&utm_term=hootsuite&utm_content=sme&utm_campaign=usage
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 06 June, 2020, 11:43:47 AM
I suspect it will never be in place. Figures will be spun about capacity while ignoring the numbers actually being tested.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: The Doctor Alt 8 on 23 June, 2020, 11:58:40 PM

Adrian's tribute to the NHS... His Gothic set of armor set up for people to view. Pity that I don't think anyone has noticed.

Currently he is in Hospital.

Nothing to do with Corvid but well he got a tooth absences. (when he lost a crown 5 weeks ago.) Instead of seeking emergency aid he carried on regardless until the inevitable infection. He went to see an emergency dentist who drained the abcess then told him to go to the hospital as they feared the swelling & drooping of one side of his face (the side with the bad tooth ) indicated that he had suffered a mini stroke.

He was taken away yesterday evening and MRI scans given.

Today he looks much better. His face has returned to normal. He is no longer in chronic pain with his tooth and there is no indication of a stroke

However he is undergoing further tests as they are unhappy that his heart is racing when it shouldn't.

I hope that this incident don't delay his much needed and long awaited for gall bladder removal operation...
 
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 24 June, 2020, 12:07:34 AM
Aye,  fingers crossed Doc.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: The Doctor Alt 8 on 24 June, 2020, 12:51:35 AM

Thanks. I was somewhat worried last night. Stupid logic brain versus the mini "worst case" thoughts.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 27 June, 2020, 02:41:08 PM
This animated graph shows COVID19 leaping up the charts of worldwide mortality rates for different reasons:

https://public.flourish.studio/visualisation/2562261/
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 28 June, 2020, 03:11:10 PM
Over on Twitter,  a former lupine Boarder who I follow mainly for his antique hunting and vernacular architecture interests (and just cos he's a nice fellow) is many posts deep into a confident discussion of how US infection numbers are fake because they represent ALL coronaviruses and not just Covid-19.

He's a bright lad, so how did we (collectively) end up in a situation where someone like him is so ready to believe any dangerous nonsense he reads online?  How can someone have a hundred sources of info at their fingertips and somehow arrive at the unwavering belief that the US is crippled by 3.5 million (identified) cases of the common cold, with 45,000 new cases every day in June and 130,000 (notified) deaths.

How do we get past this point in human affairs?  Will we ever?

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 28 June, 2020, 05:42:20 PM
Well that went well.  I greatly upset the former boarder in question by referring to his tweets here. That wasn't my intention.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Tjm86 on 29 June, 2020, 12:20:05 PM
Quote from: The Enigmatic Dr X on 04 June, 2020, 01:50:13 PM
If not now, when?

If we don't re-open schools ...



One thing that needs to be remembered, aside from the fact that SCHOOLS NEVER SHUT!!!!!!! (sorry), is that whilst pupils might be fairly resilient when it comes to the virus:

1) many families rely on relatives who are in vulnerable groups to manage the school run;
2) teachers are not so resilient;
3) if families cannot get kids to / from school they have a problem;
4) if schools cannot get enough staff to school (as was happening in quite a few cases just before lockdown) then they have a problem.
5) it is entirely possible to be asymptomatic but also infected.

All this debate about how safe it is or is not to reopen schools needs to take (4) into account in particular.  Without sufficient staff schools cannot reopen safely.  In this day and age schools cannot afford to take that risk.  It's the main reason why the nation's schools shut down at the first sign of a snowflake (real, not millennial).
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: CalHab on 29 June, 2020, 12:52:31 PM
In positive news, Scotland has now recorded zero Covid deaths for the fourth day in a row. Oddly, some commentators are using this to criticise the Scottish Government- "Why haven't you opened up as fast as England, then?". A transparently daft stance.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: JayzusB.Christ on 29 June, 2020, 01:32:03 PM
Quote from: CalHab on 29 June, 2020, 12:52:31 PM
In positive news, Scotland has now recorded zero Covid deaths for the fourth day in a row. Oddly, some commentators are using this to criticise the Scottish Government- "Why haven't you opened up as fast as England, then?". A transparently daft stance.

Great to hear the first part; not so much the second, to which the answer is obviously 'so that we could have four days of no deaths in a row'.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 29 June, 2020, 02:03:17 PM
Meanwhile, the rumour in England is full schooling will be mandatory from September, and so parents who are still at risk are basically fucked. Thanks, Johnson and co!
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Rately on 29 June, 2020, 02:11:39 PM
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 29 June, 2020, 02:03:17 PM
Meanwhile, the rumour in England is full schooling will be mandatory from September, and so parents who are still at risk are basically fucked. Thanks, Johnson and co!

Apparently the Government is prepared to start handing out fines to parents who refuse to allow their children to attend school.

I just really don't know how you expect parents to make such a decision. It is horrendous. So, totally expected that a Tory Government would put people in just such a situation.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 29 June, 2020, 02:22:21 PM
It's slightly more nuanced: at present, the existing fine system has been suspended. Under normal circumstances , LAs have the authority to fine parents. Are might fine if your child has more than five days of unauthorised absences within a ten-week period. Although the numbers are such that this is again another class-based thing. (Some families could eat a 60-quid fine without blinking. Others... not so much.)

That the Tories are planning to bring back the standard rules in September is, frankly, very Tory.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: JayzusB.Christ on 29 June, 2020, 03:00:13 PM
Quote from: TordelBack on 28 June, 2020, 05:42:20 PM
Well that went well.  I greatly upset the former boarder in question by referring to his tweets here. That wasn't my intention.

I have a fair idea who you're talking about, although i haven't followed him since he left the board.  I always forget that many ex-members often scan this forum more thoroughly than some of us current members, and it always reminds me of Lucy and Alan's justified paranoia regarding Griffin in League of Extraordinary Gentlemen.

(Looks over shoulder) Not that I'm suggesting that ex-boarders are anything like Griffin, mind you.

Edit - with the exception of S***o, of course, who was exactly like Griffin, apart from the visibility factor.  Unfortunately.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 04 July, 2020, 11:26:58 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/XsGGbZJ.jpg)
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: von Boom on 05 July, 2020, 04:15:00 PM
Good dog.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: CalHab on 14 July, 2020, 08:55:27 AM
Up here in Scotland, the news seems to be dominated by loaded questions about whether the Scottish Government is going to close the border, despite getting the same reply every time the question is asked (no plans, can't rule it out). For context, here are the death rates per million in the UK over the last 7 days:
England: 10.3
Wales: 3.2
N.Ireland: 0.5
Scotland: 0.4

I don't think the Scottish Government's position is unreasonable given that. The UK government has already used local lockdowns.

Figures are from here:
https://www.travellingtabby.com/scotland-coronavirus-tracker/
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IAMTHESYSTEM on 14 July, 2020, 09:46:41 AM
I still tend to walk around people, despite the newish One-meter rule, and I always use a mask in a shop. The 'Store Marshall' is no more, and the shop staff have removed the arrows placed on the local Tesco Superstores floor. We can wander hither we want now inside. Animals, particularly Birds, seem less inclined to run away from me. I wonder if a sudden depletion of human encounters due to the Lockdown has made creatures less afraid of us. That said, I saw a giant rat in the Garden. That's one critter than can keep its distance. I've noticed a lot more cyclists on the roads and more roadworks as Companies use the Lockdown as an excuse to dig them up.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 14 July, 2020, 10:51:40 AM
Local stores here have all removed the one-way systems. It's insane how cavalier everyone is being now. This thing has not gone away.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Tjm86 on 14 July, 2020, 11:11:44 AM
Scientists are now talking up the risks of a second wave whilst Johnson and the Tories are trying to talk everyone into behaving normally.  The real question has to be whether they are using this lull to prepare properly for a possible resurgence considering the dogs breakfast they made of the first one.

For me though the bigger question is what will the response be next time?  It feels like we now face several problems:
- ambiguous scientific evidence and guidance that has been cherry-picked to serve a narrative;
- blowing residual trust in government and a suspicion that information is presented in support of the interests of narrow, selective groups;
- a lack of a coherent position on pretty much anything.

The thought that this might turn out to be a dry run for something far worse absolutely terrifies me.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 14 July, 2020, 11:43:30 AM
I saw a piece earlier about how this lot are more or less running govt like people writing op-eds for a newspaper. It's perhaps not surprising, given their backgrounds, but it's all about the bubble. They genuinely don't try to see what's outside it. Combine that with a genuine talent for campaigning but not for governance and you get government by sloganeering.

That's all this is, I think. There's no grand plan. Previously, they have succeeded by saying a clever line, and dismissing those who don't agree with them, and so they repeat the pattern. Only, a virus doesn't care about Johnson's stupid hair and Latin bullshit. A virus doesn't care about cherry picked 'science', chosen for ideological reasons.

A lot of countries made a mess of this, to varying degrees. The US and England, though, take the prize in the west. Others nearly messed up badly, too, but at least the likes of Sweden recognised the failures and did something about them.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: CalHab on 14 July, 2020, 12:08:34 PM
The BBC and print media all seems to report that Scotland is similar to England, except in remote communities where the virus is not present. During one of the daily briefings last week, the First Minister gave a frustrated-sounding response to a question and said that the virus was five times less prevalent in Scotland.

This was news to me, so I've started looking at the data here every day. This guy produces daily updates based on the data from Scotland, the UK and elsewhere in the world:
https://www.travellingtabby.com/scotland-coronavirus-tracker/

It's fascinating.

BTW, if anything, the disparity between the nations of the UK was understated by the FM. Whatever you think of Alastair Campbell, the truth of his comment about the importance of clear, consistent and honest messaging has been demonstrated by this. That's something the Johnson/Cummings government doesn't seem to be able to do.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 17 July, 2020, 04:12:01 PM
Independent SAGE warns of thousands more deaths unless government changes COVID19 policy from England's  'drift' tactic to Scotland's 'elimination' tactic, in open letter.

https://twitter.com/independentsage/status/1284036144192249856?s=21
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Funt Solo on 23 July, 2020, 05:47:30 PM
BBC video article on an upsurge in conspiracy theory cultism during the pandemic: QAnon, coronavirus and the conspiracy cult (https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-53507579/qanon-coronavirus-and-the-conspiracy-cult)

It's so sad because, like a lot of pure belief systems, there's no way to logically discuss it with a believer. They believe almost anything except reason. And isn't that weird?

The interviewer asks a Qanon believer "Is there a conspiracy theory that you don't believe?" His response: "No, I don't think there is."
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Professor Bear on 23 July, 2020, 07:58:10 PM
People always seek rational explanations for irrational situations - and when they don't find it, that's why we have religion.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 27 July, 2020, 01:16:58 PM
Well this (https://twitter.com/ahandvanish/status/1287525539859910657?s=20) has ruined my day. Hannah Davis describes her 4 month non-recovery from C19, with a suggestion that 1/3 of survivors are in the same boat. Having just last night let my kids out to play with their friends for the first time since the beginning of March I'm feeling like a right moron.

My brother and his wife,  with professional and academic biological science backgrounds, have been encouraging their 2 year old (in creche,  visits to the zoo etc) to hug and play with my father, a 77 year old diabetic cancer patient who is in having (mild) chemo today. This, when my own kids,  who have been effectively completely isolated (except from us) for 4.5 months now,  haven't been let within 5m of him since February.

So feeling like a stupid prick and being aware that my mental health is akin to a fire in a council tip, and thus largely unreliable as a guide, and having watched the giant 30-kid rucks that have been everywhere since the end of May , and that they're going to jammed into a classroom by govt mandate in a few weeks, I decided that I was being completely paranoid and let them the fuck out.  I mean what are the odds that I'm the only one that's right?

And then I read something like that,  in tandem with the ever-accelerating global numbers, and government exhortations to get out there and holiday and consume and play contact sports and for God's sake spend money.

We are fucked.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: JOE SOAP on 27 July, 2020, 01:38:29 PM
Quote from: TordelBack on 27 July, 2020, 01:16:58 PMWe are fucked.

I've been browsing survivor groups for the past month and there are thousands like Hannah. Lot of people are going to end up with post viral fatigue that is chronic.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: von Boom on 27 July, 2020, 02:51:23 PM
Quote from: JOE SOAP on 27 July, 2020, 01:38:29 PM
Quote from: TordelBack on 27 July, 2020, 01:16:58 PMWe are fucked.

I've been browsing survivor groups for the past month and there are thousands like Hannah. Lot of people are going to end up with post viral fatigue that is chronic.
Which makes it all the more important that we increase our efforts to get rid of this virus now. I'm sick of hearing about parties and people not wearing masks or taking basic precautions because, 'you know, it's summer. You don't get sick in summer.'

Maybe this should be on the stupid things people said thread. *sigh*
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Tjm86 on 28 July, 2020, 10:18:09 AM
Quote from: TordelBack on 27 July, 2020, 01:16:58 PM
...feeling like a stupid prick and being aware that my mental health is akin to a fire in a council tip, and thus largely unreliable as a guide, and having watched the giant 30-kid rucks that have been everywhere since the end of May , and that they're going to jammed into a classroom by govt mandate in a few weeks, I decided that I was being completely paranoid and let them the fuck out.  I mean what are the odds that I'm the only one that's right?

a) right now I think that the sort of 'paranoia' that MHC's confer on some of us is probably the most accurate type of thinking going.
b) you aren't the only one
c) with the utterly insane (to my thinking) decision to let everyone jet off all over Europe on holiday, September might well turn out to be a rather unpleasant surprise

Quote from: TordelBack on 27 July, 2020, 01:16:58 PM
... in tandem with the ever-accelerating global numbers, and government exhortations to get out there and holiday and consume and play contact sports and for God's sake spend money.

The economy has taken the sort of shock that is going to take decades for it to recover from with a vaguely competent government.  What we have now is so far on the other pole that the HST would struggle to see it.

Far too many folks are watching the news about the end of the furlough scheme with a growing sense of dread.  Even folks in relatively stable jobs are eyeing economic news with uncertainty.  Get out and spend?  More like stay in and save.

I think that the "Inverse Johnson Law" has to be the safest approach for some time to come:  if he or any of his ministers suggest it is a good idea, don't do it.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: sheridan on 28 July, 2020, 10:21:28 AM
MHCs?  major histocompatibility complex ?
HST?  high speed train?
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 28 July, 2020, 10:40:06 AM
Quote from: Tjm86 on 28 July, 2020, 10:18:09 AM
if he or any of his ministers suggest it is a good idea, don't do it.

My long-standing support for the BBC largely stems from applying this principle to anything Rupert Murdoch says.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Tjm86 on 28 July, 2020, 11:57:26 AM
MHC - mental health condition
HST - Hubble Space Telescope.

As for the Beeb, Jim.  I find myself struggling continuously to make sense of some of the complaints from some quarters. 

Everyone seems to think that the Beeb is biased against them.  So either the Beeb is not biased or it is equally biased?  Go figure.

TBH my bigger problem on breakfast news is with the simpering presenters. 

My news consumption covers pretty much the entire spectrum from Spikd, Mail, Express through Grauniad to Newsthump and Daily Mash.  Sometimes I struggle to tell the difference between the satirical websites and the real ones though.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: CalHab on 28 July, 2020, 12:34:04 PM
The guy who does the Scotland Coronavirus tracker dashboard now does a UK one:
https://www.travellingtabby.com/uk-coronavirus-tracker/

I find it interesting to look at these, as the daily data and the narrative in the news frequently don't match (this seems to be a particular problem in Scotland). It may be less reassuring at the moment if you live in NW England, however.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 28 July, 2020, 12:44:14 PM
Quote from: Tjm86 on 28 July, 2020, 11:57:26 AM
Everyone seems to think that the Beeb is biased against them.  So either the Beeb is not biased or it is equally biased?  Go figure.

No... the Brexit right (for example) complain, without basis, that the BBC is biased against them whenever a sole remain voice is given air-time. You only have to look at the Question Time panel composition over the last few years to realise that these complaints are baseless.

The left, on the other hand, point out the revolving door between senior news positions and the Conservative party, and offer evidence of systemic bias against anything leftwards of Tony Blair and are dismissed out of hand.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Professor Bear on 28 July, 2020, 02:21:53 PM
The straw man argument here is that politics is a binary rather than a spectrum.  Rather than striking a "balance" between two viewpoints as they'd like to you to think, the BBC instead represents a neoliberal consensus slaved to the class interests of its own staff, whose output is framed by preexisting cognitive bias.  They really do need to employ more people who didn't go to school with Tory ministers.

Quote from: Tjm86 on 28 July, 2020, 11:57:26 AMAs for the Beeb, Jim.  I find myself struggling continuously to make sense of some of the complaints from some quarters.

As with all things, take each incident on its own merits.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: CalHab on 28 July, 2020, 02:26:30 PM
An interview from a public health expert focusing on eliminating the virus, rather than reducing numbers:
https://www.spiegel.de/international/europe/what-europe-can-learn-from-scotland-in-fighting-the-pandemic-a-43c59573-f8f1-489e-ba4b-269974a73eee
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: sheridan on 28 July, 2020, 04:17:07 PM
Quote from: Professor Bear on 28 July, 2020, 02:21:53 PM
The straw man argument here is that politics is a binary rather than a spectrum. 

Straw Man?  More like Wickerman!  In the UK and US at least...
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 28 July, 2020, 04:49:44 PM
Apologies. Having moaned about other people Political Thread-ing this thread, I've gone and done it myself. Ignore me, please!
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Funt Solo on 29 July, 2020, 04:29:24 AM
Quote from: TordelBack on 27 July, 2020, 01:16:58 PM
So feeling like a stupid prick...

It's SO difficult to know what the right thing to do is from moment to moment with all the conflicting signals we're getting, whether it be from agenda-driven governments or conspiracy-fueled relatives or just plain ignorance or carelessness (or cognitive dissonance). The science is having so much trouble trying to get through all that noise - it would be a miracle if we could consistently make the safest or sanest decisions in that environment.

You're doing your best, which is more than a lot of people are even attempting.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 07 August, 2020, 03:01:45 PM
Since the government cancelled their daily briefings (for what they were worth) info has been harder to come by.

I ‪just missed the Independent Sage video conference on the latest Covid19 update.‬ ‪However, if you're interested, this thread provides the key info discussed.‬

https://twitter.com/independentsage/status/1291714527692824582?s=21
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: The Doctor Alt 8 on 19 August, 2020, 01:18:09 PM
How the covid pandemic will end..?

https://youtu.be/XmjsLyTW5EY
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IAMTHESYSTEM on 21 August, 2020, 09:10:12 AM
Nation-States will be the winners after the pandemic. It wasn't the free market that took the strain, millionaires like Richard Branson shamelessly used the crisis to cash in while demanding their workforce take three months unpaid leave. So that might not be quite such good news in the long run, as it will reinforce the 'bugger you' narrative we've seen espoused by Farage and Trump.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: paddykafka on 21 August, 2020, 06:18:59 PM
Meanwhile, here in the Emerald Isle, the so-called elite have been shown up for what they all are. Only one fucking day, after telling the rest of us little people what we should be doing to reduce the spread of Covid 19, they are all caught by the bollix. Among some of the attendees were a number of politicians, senators, an Irish E.U. Commissioner and a Supreme Court Judge who "advised the government on legal matters, including assistance on the Covid-19 emergency laws introduced during the pandemic."

https://www.thejournal.ie/dara-calleary-resigns-5181639-Aug2020/

https://www.thejournal.ie/seamus-woulfe-apology-clifen-golf-dinner-5181845-Aug2020/

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40035884.html

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40035683.html
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Dandontdare on 21 August, 2020, 09:31:04 PM
Quote from: paddykafka on 21 August, 2020, 06:18:59 PM
Meanwhile, here in the Emerald Isle, the so-called elite have been shown up for what they all are. Only one fucking day, after telling the rest of us little people what we should be doing to reduce the spread of Covid 19, they are all caught by the bollix. Among some of the attendees were a number of politicians, senators, an Irish E.U. Commissioner and a Supreme Court Judge who "advised the government on legal matters, including assistance on the Covid-19 emergency laws introduced during the pandemic."

https://www.thejournal.ie/dara-calleary-resigns-5181639-Aug2020/

https://www.thejournal.ie/seamus-woulfe-apology-clifen-golf-dinner-5181845-Aug2020/

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40035884.html

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/arid-40035683.html

"..the event which went ahead over Tuesday and until Wednesday night..."

"Former Attorney General and Supreme Court Judge Seamus Woulfe has since apologised for his attendance at the event, stating he was not aware there was dinner involved."
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IAMTHESYSTEM on 22 August, 2020, 12:18:31 PM
'Do as we say, not as we do.' Our leaders all seem to suffer from a self-entitlement disease. How that Mega-Mind look-alike Dominic Cummings got away with his 'I'll see if I'm okay to drive-by driving' is almost beyond belief. Oh yes, he's pals with the Prime minister, that's why.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: The Doctor Alt 8 on 31 August, 2020, 06:01:11 PM

I can report at least a small piece of good news. The gaming cafe,  Ludoquist has survived the lockdown  :D

In fact Adrian & myself are going down there tomorrow afternoon.

If your local to Croydon and interested there website is here.
  https://www.theludoquist.com/
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Tjm86 on 31 August, 2020, 08:36:22 PM
Quote from: The Doctor Alt 8 on 31 August, 2020, 06:01:11 PM


If your local to Croydon and interested there website is here.
 

I thought the Beast ate Croydon?
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: The Doctor Alt 8 on 01 September, 2020, 02:41:02 AM
 :lol:

He tried. but we're so poisonous we were thrown back up...
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: sheridan on 01 September, 2020, 08:46:15 AM
I thought Croydon got teleported to the moon?
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 01 September, 2020, 01:14:10 PM
Mini-IP back to school on Thursday. Sense of dread and inevitable doom building...
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 01 September, 2020, 01:29:26 PM
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 01 September, 2020, 01:14:10 PM
Mini-IP back to school on Thursday. Sense of dread and inevitable doom building...

Seven day rolling average is rising fairly steadily already — well over 1,000 new cases per day, with 1700+ on the 30th, which is the highest since early June. :-(
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 01 September, 2020, 05:24:46 PM
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 01 September, 2020, 01:14:10 PM
Mini-IP back to school on Thursday. Sense of dread and inevitable doom building...

So why send them?

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Tjm86 on 01 September, 2020, 06:09:59 PM
Let's be a little fair here.  All the data suggests that youngsters are asymptomatic virus carriers that escape the ravages of Covid-19 with little lasting damage ...

Unfortunately not a lot of good after it's gone through family and friends leaving them the last one standing.

:o
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 01 September, 2020, 06:37:20 PM

Assuming that's true; why risk it? Why send one's children into a situation one believes to be dangerous?

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 01 September, 2020, 08:55:24 PM
Because of multiple reasons. First, my kid has basically spent the vast majority of her time since March in isolation. It is having an impact on her mental wellbeing. That is not a small thing. She's not _that_ fussed about school, but she is feeling alone, and becoming unhappy. That is heartbreaking. Then there is the basic impact on her education, which isn't that critical at her age, but foundations are important. Thirdly, there is the financial aspect—the LA have stated parents will be fined if their children aren't returned to school.

The last of those can be got around by withdrawing your child from the education system. But then that means effective isolation from all her friends (and as I and Mrs IP spent a lot of our childhoods friendless, that cuts to the bone), along with the likely eradication of her pathway through the local school system if we were to return her later. (At that point, it would be "wherever there is space", meaning she starts from scratch, possibly in a new town some distance away.)

This is one of those cases where there are no good options. We are just — just — coming down on the side of sending her back, but that doesn't mean we have to like it, or that we aren't scared; but it also doesn't mean it isn't the best (rather than the 'right') thing to do under the circumstances. Essentially, it's an impossible choice.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Funt Solo on 01 September, 2020, 09:47:12 PM
Best of luck with it IP, and I hope mini-IP enjoys getting back to her schooling.

Here (WA, US), the schools aren't going back, and so the mini-Solo is going to be doing her education entirely online for the foreseeable, with both of her parents working from home.  It is heartbreaking, because her school life is so important to her - she gets to be a different person at school than the one she is at home, and I know she loves school way more than I ever did. A lot of that is down to the relationships she's built up with her teachers and friends.

If the schools were back, I'd send her in a flash.

The side effect of the schools not going back is that all sorts of fee-paying before, during and after school clubs have started up, some of which are hiring the empty school rooms. So, you pay money and these non-teachers look after your kids, who will have computers with them to access their online teaching from the real teachers who can't enter the building. It's weird, and (as ever) it's going to hit the poorest in the pocket (either directly, now, or later when they find themselves with less of an education than everyone else).

Cheer up with Max the Miracle Dog (https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-cumbria-53757023)!
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 01 September, 2020, 10:08:05 PM

I feel for you - and all parents facing this present nightmare - I honestly do. We may disagree on many things and never come to terms in this regard, but I wish you nothing but love and good fortune and strength and health.

I'm sure such words of mine are of little consolation, and even smaller consequence, to you but I firmly believe that after a period of widespread sniffles and ills as people's isolation-induced depressed immune systems spin back up to speed, the vast majority of us will be fine.

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 01 September, 2020, 10:21:34 PM
I do hope so. My concern is that I've yet to hear from anyone who's had COVID in the age bracket of 35–55 who's fully recovered. A local parent is a medium-distance runner and had COVID back in March. She said she was basically out for two weeks, and even now has moments where she's exhausted from walking upstairs. Her general trajectory is improvement, but, well, it's six months later and she's still randomly not well, despite having no prior health problems.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 01 September, 2020, 11:38:11 PM

Well, I can only speak for myself and in February or March I was talking to a friend's daughter who had just returned from Korea as it was all kicking off there. I spent the next week or so in bed with something flu-like. Whether this was that or not I don't know but I've been fine ever since I recovered.

Also, I've listened to 'The Great Courses' 24 part lecture series 'Mysteries of the Microscopic World' (I love these courses! Currently doing one about Famous Romans) which is very informative and, frankly, casts the current media hysteria in a rather dim light. Recommended.

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: sheridan on 02 September, 2020, 08:19:17 AM
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 01 September, 2020, 10:21:34 PM
I do hope so. My concern is that I've yet to hear from anyone who's had COVID in the age bracket of 35–55 who's fully recovered. A local parent is a medium-distance runner and had COVID back in March. She said she was basically out for two weeks, and even now has moments where she's exhausted from walking upstairs. Her general trajectory is improvement, but, well, it's six months later and she's still randomly not well, despite having no prior health problems.


Same here - the only people whose health is back to normal are those who may have had it but aren't sure.  Meanwhile at least one other person has basically been housebound for the past five months.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 02 September, 2020, 09:05:34 AM
I'm running parallel to IP's experience in many respects,  and I sent my youngest back to school yesterday.

To this point we've been no-messing religious fanatics in our Covid-19 activities, trying to protect one extremely vulnerable family member and three others who would be at considerable risk, and the kids have seen only 1 friend each for the past 6 months. For ourselves we haven't socialised, travelled, bought a coffee etc. even once, saving our notional 'risk quota' for the essentials, such as accessing medical care for my Dad and necessary on-site work.

Not being in any kind of contact with other humans has meant I felt able to help out with my Dad without too much fear,  but since he's now been repeatedly in and out of hospital again over the past few months the risk-needle has swung the other way (hilariously he gets a test each time before he goes in,  but not when he comes out).

So the decision to send the kids back has been a very, very hard one. Since my daughter walked back in the door yesterday afternoon from the nonsense-theatre of 'pods' and open windows, we've put everyone back at risk again. I don't believe for a second that any of the half-hearted school measures it took the government six months to come up with (before foisting the full responsibility on individual Principals) are worth anything, or intended to be anything other than a con-trick for persuading parents go back to work. They closed the schools on March 12 when there were 72 cases total identified in Ireland.The 7-day average for daily new cases is currently 115.

But with no plan or end in sight, and my kids isolated and genuinely eager to get back to school, I don't know what else we can do but roll the dice.

Six months of this, starting with trying to keep my team safe on a filthy building site, and ending with completely losing control of my kids' environment, has left my mental health (depression kicked-off by anxiety in a delicious circle) in the worst state it's been for a decade, although at least these days I have coping strategies that make me slightly less of a nightmare to be around, most of the time.

And likely years of this left to go.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: The Doctor Alt 8 on 02 September, 2020, 02:28:50 PM

I suppose i shouldn't be surprised to find out this...   https://youtu.be/17oCQakzIl8?t=220
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: The Enigmatic Dr X on 02 September, 2020, 08:15:59 PM
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 01 September, 2020, 10:21:34 PM
I've yet to hear from anyone who's had COVID in the age bracket of 35–55 who's fully recovered.

My missus is in that age bracket and made a full recovery. She had a positive test at the time.

I had the same symptoms as her - run down, blood blisters, change of taste - but they were, to be fair, super super super mild for us both.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 03 September, 2020, 09:24:54 AM
Good to hear, Dr X!  :thumbsup:

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 03 September, 2020, 09:27:33 AM
Glad to hear you and yours made a full recovery, Dr X.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 03 September, 2020, 11:22:10 AM
As a too-necessary venting practice,  I wrote a sub-sub-Swiftian 'A Modest Proposal' thing in the comments of a popular Irish news site, suggesting we come up with firm targets for Covid deaths and ICU admissions for groups based on their aged uselessness and/or existing sickliness and work towards those numbers as a clear roadmap for the stages of reopening.

Predictably the responses so far are mainly agreeing with me, or better yet  "I suspect you are being sarcastic, but I think it's a good idea anyway". We haven't changed much since 1729.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: paddykafka on 03 September, 2020, 12:27:46 PM
My favourite Swiftian quote ever!

"When a true genius appears in this world,
you may know him by this sign, that the dunes
are all in confederacy against him."

Jonathan Swift:

"Thoughts on Various Subjects,
Moral and Diverting."
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: paddykafka on 03 September, 2020, 12:29:06 PM
PS: Glad to hear that all is okay, DR X!
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 03 September, 2020, 12:29:56 PM
Well, mini-G is now back. My gut's been doing backflips all morning since. I guess the dice has been thrown now—and will be every day for the foreseeable future.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: JayzusB.Christ on 03 September, 2020, 01:08:48 PM
Quote from: TordelBack on 03 September, 2020, 11:22:10 AM
As a too-necessary venting practice,  I wrote a sub-sub-Swiftian 'A Modest Proposal' thing in the comments of a popular Irish news site, suggesting we come up with firm targets for Covid deaths and ICU admissions for groups based on their aged uselessness and/or existing sickliness and work towards those numbers as a clear roadmap for the stages of reopening.

Predictably the responses so far are mainly agreeing with me, or better yet  "I suspect you are being sarcastic, but I think it's a good idea anyway". We haven't changed much since 1729.

The Journal, I'm guessing - every day I tell myself I won't read the comments, read them anyway, and despair of my country.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Professor Bear on 03 September, 2020, 02:15:28 PM
Newspaper website comments sections are where bots and algorithms are tested.  Most of those posting on them aren't human.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Tjm86 on 03 September, 2020, 04:43:18 PM
That figure rises even further when you visit the Mail or Express websites.

:o
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 03 September, 2020, 07:59:01 PM
Quote from: Tjm86 on 03 September, 2020, 04:43:18 PM
That figure rises even further when you visit the Mail or Express websites.

But you don't,  right?  You don't.

Can someone please explain to me the dominant belief I'm encountering that because we currently have a very low level of deaths we're doing something wrong. This isn't f*cking elephant repellent we're talking about.

When levels of infections get high,  they spread beyond the supposedly bulletproof to the vulnerable, through family,  carers,  medical staff and incidental contact. And then people start dying,  in numbers, and there's no going back. This is just a simple fact, with a huge amount of international evidence to back it up.

We're keeping deaths low: that's what we're supposed to be doing. It's worked.  It's working. The narrative now seems to be that this is misjudged, because those lives have no value.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: JOE SOAP on 03 September, 2020, 08:22:23 PM


6-8 weeks is when the deaths go up exponentially.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 03 September, 2020, 10:27:03 PM
Indeed. I'd personally only give it 5 or 6 weeks before we see serious numbers. But we seem to have decided that this won't happen this time, for absolutely no reason other than we're completely fed up.

I took the Boy down to the Fortyfoot for an afterschool swim today, and it and Sandycove were jammed solid with the usual hardy ancients, sitting hip-to-hip with gym bodies with fresh fades, gaggles of schoolkids, families (including hypocritical us) and office types: not a hint of social distancing to be seen, copious warning signage ignored. A study in complacency and fatigue.

Once this thing is back in the community in quantity, nothing is going to stop it spreading to every part of society.

I have to believe a fundamental public deficency in simple maths is at play here; the alternative is that we're consciously deciding to let the untermenschen die for the betterment of the motherland
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Definitely Not Mister Pops on 03 September, 2020, 11:42:37 PM
Quote from: TordelBack on 03 September, 2020, 10:27:03 PM
I have to believe a fundamental public deficency in simple maths is at play here

No. Most people can understand "simple maths"*. It's the minefield of statistical obfuscation and demographic misinformation presented by humanities graduates who think they understand "simple maths" is the issue.

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Funt Solo on 04 September, 2020, 03:31:05 AM
Quote from: TordelBack on 03 September, 2020, 10:27:03 PM
I have to believe a fundamental public deficency in simple maths is at play here

Exponential growth bias: The numerical error behind Covid-19 (https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20200812-exponential-growth-bias-the-numerical-error-behind-covid-19)

The article points out that exponential growth bias effects lots of people, educated in math or otherwise. It seems like humans are just built to more readily understand linear growth models, so we slip into that way of thinking.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Funt Solo on 04 September, 2020, 06:29:08 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/H9VifKA.png)

Gullibility?
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 04 September, 2020, 08:56:26 AM
The 7-day rolling average for new UK COVID cases is now over 1400/day, up almost 50% in two weeks. Yesterday, over 1700 new cases were recorded.

By comparison, on March 24th, when the schools were already closed and the pubs were ordered to shut, there were 1400 new cases. The effect, and it's impossible to believe there will be no effect, of re-opening the schools won't be seen in the figures for at least two weeks and the government is insisting that everyone goes back to their offices.

The death rate, however, remains very low, supporting reports that more cases are being detected amongst younger people (who, anecdotally at least, seem to have been less concerned about social distancing and avoiding mixing in large groups) but the danger remains that it will start to rise sharply if older and COVID-vulnerable people resume pre-COVID behaviours... which is exactly what the government is encouraging.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 04 September, 2020, 09:55:25 AM
Quote from: Mister Pops on 03 September, 2020, 11:42:37 PM
. It's the minefield of statistical obfuscation and demographic misinformation presented by humanities graduates who think they understand "simple maths" is the issue.

That's undoubtedly a big part of it, and these days it always seems to be, but does it even get as far as that for most?  I don't think many people are getting beyond a boiling-a-frog reaction to increasing numbers (plus the "healthy people [internalised as "me"] are fine").

Constantly referring to elevated numbers of suicides, cancer deaths etc. (awful, please resource services properly) as if they behave statistically the same way as an infectious disease with frequently asymptomatic presentation and up to two weeks incubation... It's just crazy to think that people en-masse can be befuddled by what's essentially the rice-on-a-chessboard trick.

The most confounding thing is that the relative success here in getting numbers down in the Spring is used as ammunition against public health measures in the Autumn. I always thought the recidivism of both Pharaoh and the Israelites in Exodus was deeply implausible: they've seen the reality of God's power, but they seem to keep forgetting and going right back to pissing Him off. I'm now reappraising the pedagogic value of these particular myths.

We accept that we have to live with this for years to come, but can't we be sensible about it?

EDIT: Just read Funt's link and most of the above is covered there. Apologies.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 04 September, 2020, 01:00:22 PM
Outdoor learning reaches the parts classrooms can't (https://educationbusinessuk.net/features/outdoor-learning-reaches-parts-classrooms-cant) Why Can't We Just Have Class Outside? (https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2020/07/outdoor-schools-coronavirus/614680/)
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 04 September, 2020, 01:09:34 PM

Sorry, that first link doesn't work properly so you'll have to pick the article out of the rest when you get there.

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 04 September, 2020, 01:34:40 PM
More outdoors time: good. All day outside in the UK: not really viable much past September!
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 04 September, 2020, 01:49:49 PM

As it says in one of those articles, open the classroom windows.

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Tiplodocus on 04 September, 2020, 01:59:36 PM
Corridor Crew did a fun video explaining exponential growth a few months back.

https://youtu.be/e02eiX866N4 (https://youtu.be/e02eiX866N4)
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 04 September, 2020, 05:29:18 PM
Quote from: The Legendary Shark on 04 September, 2020, 01:49:49 PM

As it says in one of those articles, open the classroom windows.

No argument from me, on any grounds!  I had a very jovial history teacher from Castlebar who used to jolt each flagging classroom with the bellowed instruction "Staaay with me lads*!  Staaay with me!  Throw open those windows, let in a blast of the Atlantic** breeze! "

*it was a mixed school.
** it was in Dublin.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 04 September, 2020, 07:23:25 PM
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 04 September, 2020, 08:56:26 AM
Yesterday, over 1700 new cases were recorded.

1940 cases today. I think our days of tentatively venturing to the pub are at an end...
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 07 September, 2020, 08:15:02 AM
Although, as I noted above, the headline covid death rate has fallen and remains low, there have been numerous reporting changes to the figure (some of the reporting criteria have been problematic and did need addressing) but excess deaths are unaffected by these.

Since it was reported that the UK deaths had fallen below the statistical five-year average a few weeks back, it's been rising steadily since.

(https://i.imgur.com/4Pc5ubK.jpg)

I'm not sure if we're supposed to think that the small-but-steady rise in 'flu like deaths' means that we're experiencing some kind of minor flu epidemic in August, but it doesn't seem terribly likely.

Add to that, the 3,000 new cases reported yesterday (when weekend reporting traditionally sees a large drop in cases followed by a statistical correction Mon/Tue) and you have a picture of a situation that the government very much does not have under control.

Their current tactic of telling everyone it's time to get back to normal is either reckless, incompetent, or both.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 07 September, 2020, 07:55:30 PM
Quote
Their current tactic of telling everyone it's time to get back to normal is either reckless, incompetent, or both.

It's murderously criminal is what it is.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: The Enigmatic Dr X on 08 September, 2020, 08:52:32 AM
Quote from: shaolin_monkey on 07 September, 2020, 07:55:30 PM
Quote
Their current tactic of telling everyone it's time to get back to normal is either reckless, incompetent, or both.

It's murderously criminal is what it is.

But surely the alternative is economic armageddon? (Genuine question).

Damned if they do, damned if the don't?

I see no right course of action, and I fear that national consensus is fracturing. Too many point out the negatives of a course of action without highlighting the negatives of their counter-proposal.

I worry about society. This is polarising when there are no clear alternatives to choose between. And we are in danger of entering a world of local house arrest and censorship lifted straight from 1984, thought police included; "agree or be re-educated as to why you should agree."
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 08 September, 2020, 09:03:23 AM
Quote from: The Enigmatic Dr X on 08 September, 2020, 08:52:32 AM
But surely the alternative is economic armageddon? (Genuine question).

This is an entirely false dichotomy. Firstly, if the government was prepared to magic up the same amount of money they did on "quantative easing" (aka, recapitalising the banking system) then they could have run the furlough scheme and carried the increased benefit bill for two years. Recapitalising the banks saved not one single life.

Secondly, if the government was operating an effective mass-testing system, testing asymptomatic people in the general population at random, coupled with a functioning contract-tracing system, then localised outbreaks could be identified far more rapidly, and far more local restrictions brought into place. You could probably lock down to specific post codes and lock them right down. If that means telling people to stay in their houses and government bringing them food and essential medications for two weeks, so be it.

Not doing the first was a political decision, the failure to do the second was also political, in as much as the government chose to secretly dole out responsibility for testing and tracing to its palpably incompetent cronies. (Seriously... Dido Harding? She's been a fucking disaster everywhere she's gone.)
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 08 September, 2020, 09:20:01 AM
A boring footnote on "quantitative easing", and government borrowing in general.

As a rule, the government borrows money by issuing bonds on the bond market. All government money comes this way — the idea that your tax goes into a big old pot that the government uses to pay nurses and teachers is a fiction. The government decides what it's going to spend in a given year, then issues bonds to raise that money. These bonds will typically have two-, five-, ten-year yields.

What the government does with your tax money is pay off the bonds from previous years that have fallen due, effectively maintaining the government's credit rating. Note that this number is already known to the government for any current year — it knows exactly how much money it will have to find to service previous years' debts that are now due in the current year.

The Tories favour issuing short term bonds on the general markets because that means they can shovel money into the pockets of their already-rich mates who buy them, but in exceptional circumstances, you can issue ones with much more long term yields. For example, as part of the abolition of slavery, the government of the day decided to simply buy out British slave-owners. It issued bonds to raise this money that weren't paid off for about 150 years.

Alternatively, the government can get the Bank of England to buy the bonds (as it basically did with quantitative easing). Since the BoE is literally able to create money out of thin air, the terms for those could be as favourable as the government likes — they could create a special 'Covid Bond' on a two-hundred year yield, the BoE could quietly write them off fifty years down the line, there are loads of jolly little wheezes a government can use when it issues its own currency via a state bank.

It's true that you can't run a government indefinitely this way because of the upwards inflationary pressures it creates in the medium to long term (hyperinflation in the Weimar Republic in the 30s, or in Zimbabwe more recently are often cited as examples) but current economic theory holds that some inflation is economically necessary and inflation has been at historic lows for over a decade — there's lots of wiggle room here before you reach the point of people taking a wheelbarrow of money to the shops to buy a loaf of bread.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 08 September, 2020, 09:47:52 AM
(Note: that last wasn't specifically aimed at you, Dr X, in case it sounds horribly patronising. I've only really wrapped my head around the whole bond market thing recently and I just thought, as a general point, it was worth explaining why, in exceptional circumstances, that the government literally can create money out of thin air.)
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: sheridan on 08 September, 2020, 10:02:33 AM
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 08 September, 2020, 09:20:01 AM
. For example, as part of the abolition of slavery, the government of the day decided to simply buy out British slave-owners. It issued bonds to raise this money that weren't paid off for about 150 years.


I didn't know about that.  Though having just done a little research I see that the British goverment was paying descendants of slave owners as recently as 2015.  No money for the descendants of slaves though.  Makes you proud to be British doesn't it?  Though constant refusal of Freedom of Information requests make very much make it look like the government is still rewarding descendants of slave owners (already among the wealthiest in society).
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: sheridan on 08 September, 2020, 10:14:33 AM
Back on topic - any thoughts on the current NHS Test and Trace app?*


* currently in trials on the Isle of Wight and Newham.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 08 September, 2020, 10:31:36 AM

Quote from: Jim_Campbell
link=topic=46306.msg1038221#msg1038221
date=1599553201

A boring footnote....

Not boring at all, Jim, and very clearly presented.

I know we come at things from different perspectives (you as a statist and me as an anarchist) but I think we both want much the same thing - a safe and prosperous society.

One of the major bars to a better society, arguably even the major one, is the current monopolistic money creation process. I would be in favour of a (suitably reformed) state taking full control of this process for the good of society and not, as is currently the case, for the profit of a small "elite" class.

As for "contact tracing," I think it's all very nice until a Hitler or a Stalin gets his hands on it.

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 08 September, 2020, 10:40:07 AM
Quote from: The Legendary Shark on 08 September, 2020, 10:31:36 AM
As for "contact tracing," I think it's all very nice until a Hitler or a Stalin gets his hands on it.

The off-the-shelf solution developed with Apple and Google for mobile phones didn't share *any* personal data off the phone itself. It used anonymised flags so that, on the centralised side, there was no way to connect data to specific people. The government didn't want to use that, because Cummings had sniffed a way to conduct another massive stealth data harvest.

I fear we're inevitably drifting into 'Political Thread' territory, despite the sadly-unavoidable relevance of politics to the government's ham-fisted, inconsistent response to this crisis, so I'll shut up about it.

Apologies to all for another derail.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: The Enigmatic Dr X on 08 September, 2020, 11:03:59 AM
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 08 September, 2020, 09:47:52 AM
(Note: that last wasn't specifically aimed at you, Dr X, in case it sounds horribly patronising. I've only really wrapped my head around the whole bond market thing recently and I just thought, as a general point, it was worth explaining why, in exceptional circumstances, that the government literally can create money out of thin air.)

No offence taken at all.

I do think that my point remains valid, viz: there is no right answer, we need to compromise, we should recognise that, and then have an open debate on what compromises we want to make.

And yes, by compromise I do mean take risk with public health (vs lockdown and consequences, vs economic harm).

This is NOT going away, ever, so we need to find a new way of functioning as a society. I feel the debate is between two extremes when the middle ground is needed. "Stay in to be safe" or "feck it, carry on like before" are not the options.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 08 September, 2020, 11:22:17 AM
Quote from: The Enigmatic Dr X on 08 September, 2020, 11:03:59 AM
This is NOT going away, ever, so we need to find a new way of functioning as a society. I feel the debate is between two extremes when the middle ground is needed. "Stay in to be safe" or "feck it, carry on like before" are not the options.

There is, as I said: continuous, random, mass-testing and targeted lockdowns. If you can get your data to sufficiently granularity for location, and the speed of test/results and response down to a day or so, then you can lock down practically by street. At any one time, small numbers of people are going to be massively disrupted, but they can be given targetted support and there's no need to disrupt the economy at the macro scale, by shutting down entire cites/regions/countries.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 08 September, 2020, 11:31:24 AM
And that support needs to be global—no exceptions. No more "well, you only started your business last year" or "you earn over £50k per year" or "you run a limited company and so we the government think you're a massive tax cheat for some reason".
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 08 September, 2020, 12:09:28 PM
Quote from: The Enigmatic Dr X on 08 September, 2020, 11:03:59 AM
This is NOT going away, ever, so we need to find a new way of functioning as a society. I feel the debate is between two extremes when the middle ground is needed. "Stay in to be safe" or "feck it, carry on like before" are not the options.

One of my (many) issues with the way the Westminster government is handling this is that their idea of "new normal" is "exactly the same as the old normal, only a lot more people die every year". Charitably, this is a failure of imagination. Cynically, it's typical Tory capitulation to their traditional vested interests.

Consider the move to home-working. Ninety per cent of UK workers (https://www.teiss.co.uk/uk-workforce-work-from-home/) would be happy to work from home even if not required to by Covid restrictions. Although not all jobs can be done from home, and not all home environments are suitable for home-working, this is clearly a net good. It improves employees' work/life balance, reduces pollution and fuel consumption from commuting, and there's many a senior manager looking at his company's current bill for office space rental and mentally calculating the potential savings.

The government cries "Oh, noes! Pret A Manger will go bust! Back to your offices, plebs!" I say: fuck Pret A Manger. Imagine, for a moment, that it's simply accepted that commercial office space demand will contract by 75%. All those city centre offices could be repurposed to residential space — you could have people just living in the town/city centres, which would easily replace the footfall lost to absent workers.

You could remake the town/city centre environment. You no longer have to plan and build them around the needs of a transport system that has to move tens of thousands of people into and out of the area en masse, twice a day. Great swathes of public space could be pedestrianised and greened. New businesses will move into the area to service a residential population. We could remake huge chunks of the urban environment.

You know who doesn't want that? The commercial landlords, who don't want the headache of residential tenants, and property developers, who've spent the last 30+ years ensuring that demand for housing exceeds supply in order to inflate their profits. It's basically win-win for everyone else, but the Tories will always support their own, in this case the land and property business lobby.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 08 September, 2020, 01:06:28 PM
Govt: go to work and help save our city centre shops and eateries!

Also govt: why aren't you bastards keeping your local high streets alive?


You mention failure of imagination. That's the Tories all over. They just can't see past how they themselves are, hence the argument that people are slackers unless in the office being watched.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Dandontdare on 08 September, 2020, 01:39:11 PM
.. and while city centre outlets catering to commuters and office-workers have suffered, the local shops that we have been told for years are in dire straits have been thriving as people shop from local grocers and mini-supermarkets.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: sheridan on 08 September, 2020, 03:13:30 PM
Quote from: Dandontdare on 08 September, 2020, 01:39:11 PM
.. and while city centre outlets catering to commuters and office-workers have suffered, the local shops that we have been told for years are in dire straits have been thriving as people shop from local grocers and mini-supermarkets.

The area around my workplace: full of chain caterers (McDonalds, Pret, Costa, etc) plus a few pubs (over-priced and if you tried to have lunch there you'd probably have to go back to work before it arrived).  Never use them, before or after lockdown.

The area around my home: lots of local caterers (cafes, greasy chicken shops) plus a few pubs.  In the first week of working from home used a few of the cafes during lunch hour (none during lockdown).

I know which I prefer.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Funt Solo on 08 September, 2020, 07:25:19 PM
It is interesting how some companies (e.g. Twitter) have said they'd be keen for their employees to work from home all the time but others have said it doesn't feel right not having face-to-face meetings.

I would have imagined that the decision would be driven by cost and productivity, but it seems more like it's ideological for some.

(Cynically, perhaps they would rather have non-recorded meetings! There are some things my boss will only discuss face-to-face for purposes of deniability, which makes sense in a litigious culture.)
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: broodblik on 08 September, 2020, 07:56:36 PM
Quote from: Funt Solo on 08 September, 2020, 07:25:19 PM
It is interesting how some companies (e.g. Twitter) have said they'd be keen for their employees to work from home all the time but others have said it doesn't feel right not having face-to-face meetings.

I would have imagined that the decision would be driven by cost and productivity, but it seems more like it's ideological for some.


The company I am working for do not want us to work from office (if you want to go to office you have to get special permission). The strangest think is that we have been more productive since the lock-down started.  I have been working longer hours as well.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 08 September, 2020, 09:05:18 PM
A company I work with found the same. It enforced holiday time to counter this. (Said time was not taken from your allocation — it was provided in addition to it.)
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Funt Solo on 08 September, 2020, 10:51:22 PM
As regards the wider topic of what works better to both combat the spread of the virus whilst keeping the economy (and other wider aspects of society, such as social care) healthy, I'm interested to view the results from Scotland (low spread, schools back) compared with Washington state (low spread, schools online).

Or: I wish my daughter was back enjoying the full school experience ... but I don't want that to cause her older relatives (including me, funnily enough) to die or become terribly ill.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 09 September, 2020, 12:27:40 AM
My gut feeling on the whole "get people back to the workplace because if the economy suffers we all suffer" is that this is pure Conservative ideology over what we are actually capable of in terms of looking after our citizens, and it always has been - the recent welfare reforms being a great example.

We are the sixth richest nation on the planet FFS. If we can't give everyone a roof over their head and food in their belly AT ALL TIMES, let alone in this kind of crisis, then what is the point of 'the economy'?

Fucking Tories. I wouldn't let my imaginary dog piss on them if they were on fire.

How many more people must die before we forcibly eject them? What is the line we are waiting to be crossed?
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 09 September, 2020, 03:14:45 AM
I drive by several primary schools at junior pick-up time everyday. The areas in front of the gates are as jammed with chatting parents as ever, but at each one the only people I see wearing masks are grandparents. The message that basic masks protect OTHERS, not yourself, still hasn't even begun to get through.

Meanwhile my brother-in-law has his 75 year old diabetic father doing the school run for him, and he won't be told.

This is going to be the most depressing winter of our lives.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: broodblik on 09 September, 2020, 04:21:19 AM
I think governments world-wide are clueless on how the handle the balance between saving lives and not allowing the economy to go up in smoke. 
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 09 September, 2020, 08:46:28 AM
School: my wife remains literally the only person apart from staff wearing a mask on the school run. She gets funny looks. A parent recently chatted with her about how masks have now become "second nature" and how great that was. She noted the other parent was not wearing one.

As for "give everyone a roof over their head and food in their belly AT ALL TIMES", it's these days now very obvious we don't do that because we don't want to. (We being on a societal basis.) For some countries, this would be tough. For the UK, UBI would be viable. But that would require everyone to actually pay a reasonable amount of tax.

What is interesting in the UK is that we're now rapidly heading towards the US model. There, you had fairly similar societal tiers to the UK, but the rich got richer and richer, squeezing the 'middle class'. (And, yes, I know that term means something a bit different there, but even so.) Here, we're seeing the same. The Tories never gave a fuck about the less wealthy, but now also don't give a fuck about the middle classes either. Only the rich matter. But without that middle class voting pool, the Tories would be toast. I just hope enough of them see through the bullshit next time round and vote in Labour MPs (or Lib Dems in Con/LD marginals).
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 09 September, 2020, 11:49:39 AM
So every Irish radio show, social media feed and newspaper is now just a queue of people wishing this virus away: we have the schools back and now we have an endless wish list of parties, hospital appointments, pubs, sport, travel, no masks.  We want things to go back to exactly how they were, and if we do happen to believe that we're shortly going to be back to hundreds of people dying because of our choices (as articulated by government), we don't give a shit because it won't be us specifically choking on our own lungs far from friends and family.

We spent much of the spring and early summer laughing through our fingers at the dumb Americans. Now we're the exact same. I view this pandemic as a dry run for climate change, with a more understandable immediacy and far lower sacrifices required  to address it, and in that regard the current attitude from government and electorate alike fills me with utter despair.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 16 September, 2020, 02:10:07 AM
Quote from: TordelBack on 09 September, 2020, 11:49:39 AM
I view this pandemic as a dry run for climate change, with a more understandable immediacy and far lower sacrifices required  to address it, and in that regard the current attitude from government and electorate alike fills me with utter despair.

Amen.

(https://i.imgur.com/fvQoJ0C.jpg)
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 16 September, 2020, 09:30:21 AM
I remember reading a piece with a climate scientist, talking about how we're basically fucked, and how he's shielding his kid from this. He wants her to have a childhood with relative plenty because he's certain her adult years will be full of extreme hardship. I look at my 6yo now and wonder what world she will live in, primarily because a small handful of rich arseholes can't think beyond the end of next week. We might deserve annihilation as a species. But we don't deserve disaster for billions of individuals.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 16 September, 2020, 11:11:07 AM
Totally agree. Concerned for my kids too. I haven't shielded then as such, but I've been sure to put literature and educational material in front of them about standing up and making a difference, and making sure the science is accessible, interesting, and has humour throughout despite the nature of the subject. The Cranky Uncle book by Dr John Cook is perfect for teenagers/young adults.

What cuts me the most is that whether it is COVID19 or climate change, the poorest and/or most vulnerable are hit first, and hit the hardest. For example, if we stay on our current trajectory it will mean 3 billion of the poorest people on the planet will likely be wiped out by 2100, despite having made the very least impact upon it, and being the least responsible for the calamity.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 16 September, 2020, 09:52:44 PM
It's pretty clear from the so-called Covid discourse in Ireland that very few give two shites for those most vulnerable to a crisis, it's their fault for being poor/sick/old and their constant whining is the real issue that affects us all. I suspect this is the new model going forward.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Barrington Boots on 17 September, 2020, 01:09:16 PM
I'm just back from visiting my parents / family for the first time in 9 months. Leaving was quite emotional, because I'm not sure when I'll see them again - not entirely because I fear I won't ever (although I can't deny that's been at the back of my mind) but also because we just don't know what's going to happen next and when. Christmas, for example, seems written off although I wouldn't be surprised if the Government relaxes limitations for the festive period just to try and get on peoples good sides and then crank up measures afterwards. At least we can go grouse shooting though, right?
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Professor Bear on 17 September, 2020, 02:53:02 PM
The Boxing Day Hunt being declared illegal didn't stop it happening, and a pandemic certainly won't.  Tories need to rip an animal to shreds and rub its remains on their kids' faces just to make sure they grow up with the right attitude towards the poor.  I mean, what happens if they grow up and aren't sociopaths?  How will they ever become Tory ministers?
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Rately on 18 September, 2020, 11:51:05 AM
Coming as not much of a surprise, Van Morrison continues to prove he is an arse of the highest order.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-54194408

That we live in a society where people will take the word of a fella talented enough to make music, over the words of experts shows how much of a mess the world is in.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: JamesC on 18 September, 2020, 12:22:13 PM
Quote from: Rately on 18 September, 2020, 11:51:05 AM
Coming as not much of a surprise, Van Morrison continues to prove he is an arse of the highest order.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-54194408

That we live in a society where people will take the word of a fella talented enough to make music, over the words of experts shows how much of a mess the world is in.

They played a snippet of one of these songs on the radio. It was no 'Brown Eyed Girl', that's for sure.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Professor Bear on 18 September, 2020, 01:47:39 PM
An actual conversation I walked in on in my dad's house:

Niece (17): It's not real.  They said everyone would know someone who died, but (clearly disappointed) I don't know a single person who's died of it.
Dad (72): I know two people who died from it.
Niece: well, there have been some deaths, but they would have happened anyway.
Dad: They died from pneumonia, they wouldn't have caught that if they hadn't got the virus first.
Niece: SEE?  They didn't die from it, they died with it.  The numbers don't add up, Granda, there's no more people dying than there normally would be.
Me: If the government is lying about the virus, then why is it giving out low death numbers?  Shouldn't they be giving out higher death numbers to back up their lies?
Niece: It's all planned.  It's a plandemic.

Apparantly she (and her mum) had decided "the virus is all planned" because they'd become aware of a Youtube video called PLANdemic, which they had not even watched, but they had figured out the gist from the name.  How do you even fight this?
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Rately on 18 September, 2020, 01:49:39 PM
Quote from: JamesC on 18 September, 2020, 12:22:13 PM
Quote from: Rately on 18 September, 2020, 11:51:05 AM
Coming as not much of a surprise, Van Morrison continues to prove he is an arse of the highest order.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-54194408

That we live in a society where people will take the word of a fella talented enough to make music, over the words of experts shows how much of a mess the world is in.

They played a snippet of one of these songs on the radio. It was no 'Brown Eyed Girl', that's for sure.

Absolute dirge.

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Leigh S on 18 September, 2020, 01:54:19 PM
PLANDEMIC
BREXIT
REMOANER

All the left really need is a great portmanteau to sell their message and we are off..

Socialism? - Glow-cialism, girlfriend!



Quote from: Professor Bear on 18 September, 2020, 01:47:39 PM
An actual conversation I walked in on in my dad's house:

Niece (17): It's not real.  They said everyone would know someone who died, but (clearly disappointed) I don't know a single person who's died of it.
Dad (72): I know two people who died from it.
Niece: well, there have been some deaths, but they would have happened anyway.
Dad: They died from pneumonia, they wouldn't have caught that if they hadn't got the virus first.
Niece: SEE?  They didn't die from it, they died with it.  The numbers don't add up, Granda, there's no more people dying than there normally would be.
Me: If the government is lying about the virus, then why is it giving out low death numbers?  Shouldn't they be giving out higher death numbers to back up their lies?
Niece: It's all planned.  It's a plandemic.

Apparantly she (and her mum) had decided "the virus is all planned" because they'd become aware of a Youtube video called PLANdemic, which they had not even watched, but they had figured out the gist from the name.  How do you even fight this?
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 18 September, 2020, 01:54:38 PM
Quote from: Professor Bear on 18 September, 2020, 01:47:39 PM
Apparantly she (and her mum) had decided "the virus is all planned" because they'd become aware of a Youtube video called PLANdemic, which they had not even watched, but they had figured out the gist from the name.  How do you even fight this?

TBH, this is the most enraging thing about the whole 'conspiracy' angle... it makes literally no sense. It's both insane and idiotic. There's no part of any of the 'conspiracy' stuff that stands up to a moment's rational scrutiny, and yet somehow there's no reasoning with these people.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Rately on 18 September, 2020, 01:56:18 PM
Quote from: Professor Bear on 18 September, 2020, 01:47:39 PM
An actual conversation I walked in on in my dad's house:

Niece (17): It's not real.  They said everyone would know someone who died, but (clearly disappointed) I don't know a single person who's died of it.
Dad (72): I know two people who died from it.
Niece: well, there have been some deaths, but they would have happened anyway.
Dad: They died from pneumonia, they wouldn't have caught that if they hadn't got the virus first.
Niece: SEE?  They didn't die from it, they died with it.  The numbers don't add up, Granda, there's no more people dying than there normally would be.
Me: If the government is lying about the virus, then why is it giving out low death numbers?  Shouldn't they be giving out higher death numbers to back up their lies?
Niece: It's all planned.  It's a plandemic.

Apparantly she (and her mum) had decided "the virus is all planned" because they'd become aware of a Youtube video called PLANdemic, which they had not even watched, but they had figured out the gist from the name.  How do you even fight this?

Phenomenal.

The level of ignorance could power the grid.

My cousin keeps randomly posting bizarre Youtube videos, most of which are right-wing grifts or MLM schemes, to our footy chat group, thinking he is being provocative, free thinking and "separating himself from the herd." I've stomached a few of the videos out of curiosity, and i actually worry for him, because if the level of some of these claims and their "evidence" is all you have, then you really are too far gone to even have a conversation with, never mind the fact that you are being led down the bigot rabbit hole towards the astonishing, newly minted, not at all racist or horrendous view that its the Jews that done it!

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Rately on 18 September, 2020, 01:57:38 PM
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 18 September, 2020, 01:54:38 PM
Quote from: Professor Bear on 18 September, 2020, 01:47:39 PM
Apparantly she (and her mum) had decided "the virus is all planned" because they'd become aware of a Youtube video called PLANdemic, which they had not even watched, but they had figured out the gist from the name.  How do you even fight this?

TBH, this is the most enraging thing about the whole 'conspiracy' angle... it makes literally no sense. It's both insane and idiotic. There's no part of any of the 'conspiracy' stuff that stands up to a moment's rational scrutiny, and yet somehow there's no reasoning with these people.

5G, Jim. I'm tracking you now. You'll be easier followed when you take the vaccine laced with nano trackers...

Now, get your Mask back on so I can take away your freedoms.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Leigh S on 18 September, 2020, 01:58:00 PM
Indeed, what is the plan? Why does every country go along with it?  If there are no more deaths, why are there ACTUALLY 1,000s more deaths? How do you argue with idiots who have been made to feel like they finally know something you don't?

Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 18 September, 2020, 01:54:38 PM
Quote from: Professor Bear on 18 September, 2020, 01:47:39 PM
Apparantly she (and her mum) had decided "the virus is all planned" because they'd become aware of a Youtube video called PLANdemic, which they had not even watched, but they had figured out the gist from the name.  How do you even fight this?

TBH, this is the most enraging thing about the whole 'conspiracy' angle... it makes literally no sense. It's both insane and idiotic. There's no part of any of the 'conspiracy' stuff that stands up to a moment's rational scrutiny, and yet somehow there's no reasoning with these people.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: JamesC on 18 September, 2020, 01:58:33 PM
Quote from: Professor Bear on 18 September, 2020, 01:47:39 PM
How do you even fight this?

Have you tried a cricket bat?
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 18 September, 2020, 02:02:10 PM
Quote from: Leigh S on 18 September, 2020, 01:58:00 PM
Indeed, what is the plan? Why does every country go along with it?  If there are no more deaths, why are there ACTUALLY 1,000s more deaths? How do you argue with idiots who have been made to feel like they finally know something you don't?

That's what I mean... every country in the world agreed to simultaneously tank their economy? And falsify statistics en masse, fake deaths, co opt the entire contingent of healthcare professionals in their respective nations, not one of whom has turned whistle-blower... to what end?

"It's all about control, innit?" the last fuckhead I had this argument with responded, then sat back with the expression of a poker player who'd just laid down a royal flush.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Colin YNWA on 18 September, 2020, 02:18:17 PM
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 18 September, 2020, 02:02:10 PM
That's what I mean... every country in the world agreed to simultaneously tank their economy? And falsify statistics en masse, fake deaths, co opt the entire contingent of healthcare professionals in their respective nations, not one of whom has turned whistle-blower...

To be fair if it was this it would be a glorious example of international cooperation on a scale that's been utterly unimaginable up to now and a source of great hope for the future!... well assuming the next time they decide to cooperation in this unilateral way its done for something positive... like starting a new version of Battle or reprinting Doomlord...

...or something more ambitious...
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 18 September, 2020, 02:21:08 PM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 18 September, 2020, 02:18:17 PM
To be fair if it was this it would be a glorious example of international cooperation on a scale that's been utterly unimaginable up to now and a source of great hope for the future!

Blimey, and Alan Moore thought it would take a giant, teleporting, psychic alien squid. Maybe he doesn't know the score after all!
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: JamesC on 18 September, 2020, 02:26:14 PM
But these people don't believe in multiple governments cooperating (or not) - they believe in a secret illuminati who control everything.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 18 September, 2020, 02:28:41 PM
Do you want a solid and reliable update re what is happening with COVID19 up and down the country right now?

Then read this thread from Independent Sage, a reporting and recommendations group made up of healthcare professionals and scientists with a public health focus.

Absolutely essential reading - bypasses the government's noise to get to the facts.

https://twitter.com/independentsage/status/1306938285177085955?s=21
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 18 September, 2020, 04:17:29 PM
Meanwhile, in Ireland,the population has decided to take its public health advice from the You-tube videos of a chemical engineer turned keto diet guru who churns out carefully cropped graphs and assures them that less people have died than normally would and Sweden ignored Covid-19 so it left them alone,  despite this being not the case, despite every second of his videos being debunked. Unsurprisingly his compelling advice is 'Party on, Wayne'.

His believers are on every form of media, in every comment thread; anyone who disagrees are deluded sheep.

Even as 100s of new deaths are already locked-in by skyrocketing and entirely predictable  numbers and Dublin retires to Stage 4 lockdown.

Our new government counters this by making a good play for bring the most deceitful, incompetent shambles we've ever had.

I'm off for a swim, as of midnight I'm restricted to my fucking county. Again.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 22 September, 2020, 12:29:26 PM
Foolishly, foolishly, oh what a fool was I, went digging into Irish anti-restriction Twitter, with its no-surprise massive crossover into blood nationalism, pro-life, climate denialism and LGTBQphobia. If this is the standard of comprehension, reasoning and critical approach to media of a segment of our population, we have done something terribly wrong as a society.

We squares can get agitated by our own dear Shark's energetic pushing at the boundaries of received wisdom, but this is nothing like that. This is a very pure kind of deep malaise, where ANY unqualified quack or crank that comes along is accorded complete authority, where every misleading graph and cynical fiddle with numbers is greeted with howls of triumph. It's the complete opposite of questioning orthodoxies, substituting the difficult with the easy answer every time.

How did people's preconceptions and selfish desires completely overwhelm the rational parts of their minds, never mind their empathy and compassion?  I can't help but see this as a straight swap for a lost religiosity, a blind faith in what the man in the dress says, and the crueler the better.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: sheridan on 22 September, 2020, 12:46:03 PM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 18 September, 2020, 02:18:17 PM
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 18 September, 2020, 02:02:10 PM
That's what I mean... every country in the world agreed to simultaneously tank their economy? And falsify statistics en masse, fake deaths, co opt the entire contingent of healthcare professionals in their respective nations, not one of whom has turned whistle-blower...

To be fair if it was this it would be a glorious example of international cooperation on a scale that's been utterly unimaginable up to now and a source of great hope for the future!... well assuming the next time they decide to cooperation in this unilateral way its done for something positive... like starting a new version of Battle or reprinting Doomlord...

...or something more ambitious...


It feels like I must have posted this already, but...
Jewish Humour (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_humor#Humor_about_antisemitism)



Rabbi Altmann and his secretary were sitting in a coffeehouse in Berlin in 1935. "Herr Altmann," said his secretary, "I notice you're reading Der Stürmer! I can't understand why. A Nazi libel sheet! Are you some kind of masochist, or, God forbid, a self-hating Jew?"


"On the contrary, Frau Epstein. When I used to read the Jewish papers, all I learned about were pogroms, riots in Palestine, and assimilation in America. But now that I read Der Stürmer, I see so much more: that the Jews control all the banks, that we dominate in the arts, and that we're on the verge of taking over the entire world. You know – it makes me feel a whole lot better!"
   
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 29 September, 2020, 11:31:18 PM
I'm not sure I can adequately describe the raw terror and boiling anger I feel daily, hourly, at the constant lobbying from my fellow citizens to let my most loved vulnerable family members die horribly for their (notional) convenience. It's quite honestly destroying my mind.

Whatever way this ends up, I don't think my mental health will ever recover, I don't there'll be enough pieces of me left to reassemble.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: maryanddavid on 30 September, 2020, 12:10:45 AM
TB, personally I avoid all comments on articles, 99% of FB and Twitter unless its comic related, and even then I avoid a lot of it.
Avoid avoid avoid, especially if you think you might change anyone's mind, think of the Bull McCabe and the sea.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 30 September, 2020, 08:48:48 AM
BIL has it (and so far has—fortunately—mild flu-like symptoms), caught from his job working with vulnerable disabled people in care homes. Two infection explosions in Iceland (not quite doing New Zealand well, but not far off, and without any full lockdown to date) and subsequent fallout have all been linked to two French tourists who tested positive on entry and then refused to isolate. They were shopped by their hotel, by which point it was too late—so the country's infection rate soared because two people decided it was OK for them to head to bars and restaurants in the city. Natch, they're getting away with it because they "misunderstood the rules about quarantine". How fucking difficult is it to understand the rules? If you get a positive test, STAY INSIDE, AWAY FROM OTHER PEOPLE. Gah.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 30 September, 2020, 03:18:41 PM
Quote from: Professor Bear on 18 September, 2020, 01:47:39 PM] How do you even fight this?

Two answers to this

1 - Education, such as Finland's example.

So that's the U.K. fucked - there's no chance of spending on this, given there's already not enough spending on basics like Textbooks and even pencils.

https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2019/05/how-finland-is-fighting-fake-news-in-the-classroom/


2 - An outright ban of social media. Block it. Especially given the harm it is doing, and the way it has been hijacked by fuck knows who, and is actively being used to take down the tattered remains of democracies around the world.

We know what'll happen though. "You're banning our freedom of speech!"

https://www.businessinsider.com/the-six-countries-that-block-social-media-2015-4?r=US&IR=T



Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Professor Bear on 30 September, 2020, 05:22:28 PM
Or we could arrest tech company CEOs.
They knowingly allow the fake accounts and targeted disinformation that is causing all this, because it isn't some unforseen side-effect of human brains being wired to the Matrix or an out-of-control technology like Skynet or something: social media is working exactly as it's supposed to because it makes money this way.

As a follow-up to my earlier comments about family members doing their best to secure gold membership cards in the dipshit moron club, I walked into my dad's house and found the same family members decked out like riot cops, with masks and face shields and I was like "what's this?  I thought it was a hoax" etc because of course they've had to get tested, because of course the people they hang out with have tested positive already.  This is in my parents' house - both in their fucking 70s, both with serious underlying breathing conditions.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Funt Solo on 30 September, 2020, 08:16:56 PM
Mini-Solo (8) has taken to approaching people in stores who wear their masks off their nose or as a chin-cosy and asking them if they would please wear it properly.

Sometimes it works.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: von Boom on 30 September, 2020, 09:40:03 PM
That irritates me no end and I see it a lot.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 03 October, 2020, 04:35:25 PM

Assessing the Age Specificity of Infection Fatality Rates for COVID-19: Meta-Analysis & Public Policy Implications. (https://www.nber.org/papers/w27597)

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: RocketMother on 04 October, 2020, 06:36:42 PM
Right now here in Florida 1 in every 64 people have a confirmed case of Covid.

Meanwhile the governor has said it's ok for bars and restaurants to return to normal

For the last few months (it began far too late but that's another story) a lot of stores had mask mandates. I went out to get supplies a couple of days ago and the signage telling people they must wear masks has been removed and the workers at one of the stores were no longer wearing masks...

I don't think the outside world understands just how bad things are here or how ABSOLUTELY F'ING STUPID the leaders are here. I know they are bad in other countries but having lived in both the UK and the US I can say first hand it's much worse here.

Rant over (for now...)




Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 10 October, 2020, 06:07:49 PM


Public Health Lessons Learned From Biases in Coronavirus Mortality Overestimation (https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/disaster-medicine-and-public-health-preparedness/article/public-health-lessons-learned-from-biases-in-coronavirus-mortality-overestimation/7ACD87D8FD2237285EB667BB28DCC6E9/core-reader) (Cambridge Core.)

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 10 October, 2020, 06:39:34 PM

NIH face mask studies from 2004-2020:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29395560/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32590322/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15340662/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26579222/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31159777/

Cloth Mask Study:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/
PMC4420971/

Other Mask Studies:

https://medrxiv.org/
content/10.1101/2020.04.01.20049528v1...
https://medrxiv.org/
content/10.1101/2020.03.30.20047217v2...
https://nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/
NEJMp2006372...
https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jama/
fullarticle/2749214...
https://cmaj.ca/content/188/8/567...
https://ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/
PMC5779801/...
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19216002/
https://aaqr.org/articles/aaqr-13-06-
oa-0201.pdf...
https://ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/
PMC4420971/...
https://academic.oup.com/cid/
article/65/11/1934/4068747...
https://jstage.jst.go.jp/article/bio/23/2/23_61/_
pdf/-char/en...
https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/
BF01658736...
https://journalofhospitalinfection.com/
article/0195-6701(91)90148-2/pdf...
https://ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/
PMC2493952/pdf/annrcse01509-0009.pdf
https://cidrap.umn.edu/news-
perspective/2020/04/commentary-masks-all-
covid-19-not-based-sound-data...
https://nap.edu/catalog/25776/rapid-expert-
consultation-on-the-effectiveness-of-fabric-
masks-for-the-covid-19-pandemic-
april-8-2020...
https://nap.edu/read/25776/chapter/1#6...
https://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/
article/26/5/19-0994_article...
https://academic.oup.com/annweh/
article/54/7/789/202744...
https://ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/
PMC6599448/...
https://acpjournals.org/doi/10.7326/M20-1342
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 10 October, 2020, 06:53:54 PM
The RB Brown one has been doing the rounds since August, and it's quite a read, but it's pehaps worth noting that while the author is a graduate student in epidemiology, his PhD is actually in psychology.

Events seem to overtaken many of his conclusions. The Sept/October updates to this Medium article  (https://medium.com/microbial-instincts/clarifying-the-true-fatality-rate-of-covid-19-same-as-the-flu-8148e38b9ab5) are worth a look. But I still think Brown makes good points about the psychology of the response.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 10 October, 2020, 07:00:10 PM

Excellent, thank you.

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Rately on 11 October, 2020, 07:45:46 AM
My COVID conspiracy cousin has been strangely quiet in our Group Chat since one of our friend's wives caught the bloody thing, and has been confined to bed for four days.

if he posts anything, even one shitey, snide, "i know better and am free" post, i am seriously going to lose it. Mind you, one off our mates in the chat works as a Software Engineer or summat, for BT, and he argued with him about bloody 5G!
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 11 October, 2020, 08:35:04 AM
[Ulr=https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/oct/10/continual-local-lockdowns-answer-covid-control?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other&__twitter_impression=true]This [/url] is about as sensible a piece as I've read thus far.

My old man, very frail diabetic cancer patient, spent 13 hours on a trolley in A&E yesterday, alone and confused. How 'shielded' do you reckon he was for that time, or even now when he's finally in a ward? How shielded will my mother be if/when she resumes her duties as his 24/7 carer? My vulnerable wife's workplace has reorganised to keep people separated, but how shielded is she when our kids come home from classrooms that have exactly as many kids jammed into them as always?  It's plain nonsense to suggest the vulnerable can be protected long-term.

Consistent social distancing, properly resourced deep track and trace, until a vaccine can be fully rolled out. There's no other way, but 8 months on there's no sign of either, just a cycle of complacency, catastrophe, complacency.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 11 October, 2020, 08:42:10 AM
Ah jeez. That link again (https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/oct/10/continual-local-lockdowns-answer-covid-control?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other&__twitter_impression=true).
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Rately on 11 October, 2020, 08:55:36 AM
Quote from: TordelBack on 11 October, 2020, 08:35:04 AM
[Ulr=https://amp.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/oct/10/continual-local-lockdowns-answer-covid-control?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other&__twitter_impression=true]This [/url] is about as sensible a piece as I've read thus far.

My old man, very frail diabetic cancer patient, spent 13 hours on a trolley in A&E yesterday, alone and confused. How 'shielded' do you reckon he was for that time, or even now when he's finally in a ward? How shielded will my mother be if/when she resumes her duties as his 24/7 carer? My vulnerable wife's workplace has reorganised to keep people separated, but how shielded is she when our kids come home from classrooms that have exactly as many kids jammed into them as always?  It's plain nonsense to suggest the vulnerable can be protected long-term.

Consistent social distancing, properly resourced deep track and trace, until a vaccine can be fully rolled out. There's no other way, but 8 months on there's no sign of either, just a cycle of complacency, catastrophe, complacency.

Just one long continued Day Of Chaos.

Hoping things get better for you and yours TordelBack.

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Tjm86 on 11 October, 2020, 10:02:02 AM
Quote from: TordelBack on 11 October, 2020, 08:35:04 AM
t how shielded is she when our kids come home from classrooms that have exactly as many kids jammed into them as always?  It's plain nonsense to suggest the vulnerable can be protected long-term.

Even in well organised schools the Covid-secure measures are slightly more than a little bonkers.  It is easier for Primary than Secondary school.  The best you can hope for there are "year group bubbles", something that goes out the window the moment the kids leave at the end of the day.

I tend to listen to LBC on the drive home from work just to get out of the echo chamber.  It is fascinating in a "watching a car crash unfold" sort of way.  Someone did make a good point recently on the subject of the "vulnerable".  They suggested that the idea that they should just lock themselves away and not come out until the end of the pandemic was an incredibly unjust proposition.  Granted it might be for their own safety but there is also a sense that they should not burden the rest of us.  Mind you, it feels at times like that's the British way.   :(
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: paddykafka on 11 October, 2020, 10:34:28 AM
Fingers crossed for you and yours, Tordels. All the best and take care.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 11 October, 2020, 11:06:04 AM
My kid has a bubble of 30. But that doesn't work, because her friends have siblings. People go to work. So the bubbles have inevitable overlap. The government doesn't even seem aware of this. We should be distancing at all times, mandating mask use at all times in public areas, and urging people to work from home when we possible.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: von Boom on 11 October, 2020, 11:22:40 AM
I hope everything goes well for you and your family, Tordelback.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 11 October, 2020, 12:56:50 PM

My best to you and yours, Tordels, I hope all goes well for you.

Thanks for the link, although according to the author's Wikipedia page (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devi_Sridharl), she has some interesting ties, including serving on the World Economic Forum's Global Agenda Council on the Health Industry - the same World Economic Forum pushing for "The Great Reset" as a response to current events. This, along with other associations possessing a technocratic global governance flavour, give me pause.

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 11 October, 2020, 12:59:25 PM

Gah - now I'm at it! That link again: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devi_Sridhar

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: JayzusB.Christ on 11 October, 2020, 01:02:04 PM
Thoughts are with you and yours, TB. Dark times.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 11 October, 2020, 02:25:05 PM
Thanks, all. Things with my Dad have been going on for ages, nothing to do with Covid. He's almost 2 years past his initial prognosis, so it's all gravy really. It's more the reality that he usually has hospital appointments almost every week, and he's been hospitalised 3 times this year - which always has to be through A&E, so the idea of shielding him, or by extension my mother, is patently laughable. And they're hardly alone. Yet so much of the anti-restriction lobby rhetoric is about access to health services.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 11 October, 2020, 02:34:41 PM
Aaarggh, meant to add: oh look, kids spread it after all  (https://www.princeton.edu/news/2020/09/30/largest-covid-19-contact-tracing-study-date-finds-children-key-spread-evidence), what a surprise. And our pretend social-distancing measures in schools, even when implemented, mean that kids who sit 1m away for 30 hours a week aren't considered a close contact for tracing purposes.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 11 October, 2020, 02:41:04 PM

Is there any chance he can get home visits instead of having to go out?

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Tjm86 on 11 October, 2020, 03:05:46 PM
Quote from: TordelBack on 11 October, 2020, 02:34:41 PM
...  mean that kids who sit 1m away for 30 hours a week aren't considered a close contact for tracing purposes.

I think you will find that in actual fact they sit mere centimetres apart in class.  In class / year group 'bubbles' there is no social distancing at all.  It is only recently with the latest round of lockdowns that we've started to see more students wearing face masks in the scrum in corridors!
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 11 October, 2020, 03:12:49 PM
Interesting times with our local gym. Mini-IP's gymnastics lessons started up again. Because she's under 8, a parent must stay on-site, in the viewing area. The gym claims it's COVID-safe, even though distancing isn't entirely possible. Last week, 25% of the people in the area were masked, and there was no signage.

I brought this up. I was frankly told by the appalling front of house manager that distancing is the "responsibility of the individual" and that because masks are not mandated by law it would be illegal for the gym to even request (not demand) people wear masks. Which is news to all local schools, I imagine, who are doing just that.

Oddly enough, this week I learn that the on-site thing isn't anything beyond this particular place's own rules. (Other gyms ask you remain nearby, but could stay in your car if you wanted to.) But also: my wife noted there are now signs up, and mask use was up to 75%. But those signs are illegal! They told me so! Etc! Arseholes.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 11 October, 2020, 03:17:53 PM
Oh I'm under no illusions, Tjm. Once 1m was accepted as a functional distance, it became effectively zero everywhere. Watching gaggles of parents outside the school gates it's not just kids that have no clue what 1m is, never mind 2m.

My youngest was put in a pod of 4 within her year bubble, which in itself is nonsense, but we just found out that they change the membership of the pods around every other week... so there's literally no point in them whatsoever.

My brother-in-law works on The Vikings, and because they can't maintain distance they get tested at the production's expense 2-3 times a week. My kids and their teachers in the same boat, never.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 11 October, 2020, 03:20:11 PM
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 11 October, 2020, 03:12:49 PM
I brought this up. I was frankly told by the appalling front of house manager that distancing is the "responsibility of the individual" and that because masks are not mandated by law it would be illegal for the gym to even request (not demand) people wear masks.

Amazing how gyms can insist patrons wear swimming caps in the pool, isn't it.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Tjm86 on 11 October, 2020, 04:11:12 PM
I'm always baffled by the "we can't enforce it" mentality.  All through lockdown, and even now, shops are having people queue up outside to keep the numbers inside down.  They literally don't let people through the door.  Since they're already going that far it isn't too much of a stretch to say that you need a mask as well.

There're any number of rules and regulations that you sign up to for gyms.  Shops are essentially private property.  There's nothing to stop them saying that they are protecting staff and patrons.  If you don't want to, that's fine.  Just do it somewhere else.  (apart from will ...)

As for the old 'confrontation' argument, at the end of the day shops quite cheerfully enforce age limits on alcohol purchases.  That can involve confrontations.  Pubs have the right to eject problematic customers.  that can involve confrontation.  Most reasonable people will go with the flow.  Unreasonable ones just need to go.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 11 October, 2020, 04:51:47 PM
Yep. It's bullshit. I politely pointed out that they were making a choice and if that's so, fair enough, and at least I now understanding that company's own position. But the fact they enforce the other rule about parents remaining inside that specific location is a problem, not least when they then throw the semi-legal "it's your own responsibility to social distance" is reprehensible.

Fortunately, things improved a little this week; had they not, I'd have escalated this for sure.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 12 October, 2020, 01:46:23 PM
An absolutely vital thread from a member of Independent Sage about the four options the U.K. has to get Covid19 under control.

Although it sounds like there really is only one option - no.4.

https://twitter.com/globalhlthtwit/status/1315336234382827522?s=21


Here's a thread reader app unroll for those who can't be bothered with Twitter:

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1315336234382827522.html
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Bolt-01 on 13 October, 2020, 08:30:21 AM
Tords - just dropping a word to say hope your Dad is okay and gets back from the hospital safely. The appalling mess that has become what used to be a reasonably smooth cancer treatment path is just one of the absolute horror shows that is waiting for patients. Routine diagnostic testing is still nowhere near what it should be and that is for those who have decided to present. How many people now are not going to present for a condition because of the current climate.

My very best to you and yours.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 13 October, 2020, 09:30:16 AM
Cheers, Dave. Appalling mess about covers it.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: ChickenStu on 14 October, 2020, 07:46:58 PM
Quote from: TordelBack on 13 October, 2020, 09:30:16 AM
Cheers, Dave. Appalling mess about covers it.

Tord mate. I know how you're feeling, been in the same boat. Drop us a PM if you need to vent mate.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 15 October, 2020, 01:47:24 PM
Cheers, ChickenStu.

This was published in our 'newspaper of record' today:

(http://cf.broadsheet.ie/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/irishtimes.jpg)

The weak must die - and here's why!  Almost every word of this is a carefully twisted misrepresentation. You see these things in 1930s newspapers, and feel ill. To see them in today's Irish Times, I want to hurt someone. Several someones.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Rately on 15 October, 2020, 03:00:03 PM
I still shudder at the mindset that places the economy over any life.

Because they're old it somehow doesn't matter? Christ.

Hopefully Covid passes them and their families over, but i think as this long, endless misery plays out, a lot of re-evaluation will take place, not just with private citizens.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Funt Solo on 15 October, 2020, 03:46:56 PM
It is possible to just print money (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantitative_easing).

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 15 October, 2020, 05:11:04 PM

Yes it is.

So why is just about everybody in the world, and every country, in debt?

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 18 October, 2020, 01:32:31 PM
This is a fascinating article from the Financial Times data team, which tracks the history of Coronavirus by the numbers and statistics.


https://ig.ft.com/coronavirus-global-data
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 19 October, 2020, 10:47:31 PM
Restricted to 5km again. Means I won't see the sea again from Wednesday until sometime next year, let alone swim in it. Even the nearest incredibly-cold lake is outside my cage.  Doubt it's a coincidence that every million-euro home in Dublin won't have this problem.

Bugger.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 20 October, 2020, 04:19:49 PM
"It's likely 2,000 people will die over the next two weeks and 4,000 the two weeks after that."
- Prof. Christina Pagel, Clinical Operational Research Unit at University College London, discusses the 'relentless doubling' of infection rates.

https://www.politics.co.uk/comment-analysis/2020/10/20/a-circuit-break-will-save-thousands-of-lives
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: JayzusB.Christ on 20 October, 2020, 10:26:27 PM
I've recently had to work alongside a chap who immediately started decrying masks and banging on how the public has fallen for the Covid thing 'hook, line and sinker' (the pandemic exists but it doesn't kill anyone, apparently), talking as if I already agreed with him. I assured him I didn't and wore my mask constantly, keeping well away from his stupid infectious face, then decided I'd work in the evening when he wasn't there.  And nor was anyone else working there for that matter - one of the few benefits of self-employment.



Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Funt Solo on 20 October, 2020, 11:05:53 PM
Wot? Ain't you 'eard of the "plandemic", then, Christ, me olde mucker? S'all a plot, innit?! That Gates fella, he's planned the 'ole shebang, he 'as.

It's like Robert Anton Wilson & Robert Shea never wrote The Illuminatis! Trilogy.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Dandontdare on 21 October, 2020, 01:17:21 AM
Not being able to see my parents has been the hardest thing for me. They're both 89, and my dad's been going downhill the last couple of years (dramatically so since I last saw him apparently), slower, more forgetful and confused, whilst my mum still has all her marbles but is frail. She's bored (he hasn't the attention span for "chat") and having to care for him alone. I've only seen them once in the last eight months.

Thankfully, my brother and his family live a few miles away and have been looking after them in their bubble. My nephew's been doing their shopping and stopping by for a weekly socially-distanced chat (he's a primary school teacher) and my niece has been bringing the light of their lives George (2yrs) for visits - she took a short break to squeeze a daughter out in August (who I'm aching to meet), so that's keeping them entertained. Living in Manchester and commuting to work by tram every day, I have to stay away, but it's hard.

I used to get the train over once a month out of habit and a sense of duty, often resenting the loss of a weekend to dull conversation, but I'd give anything to just do a bit of my mum's jigsaw or watch Match of the Day with my dad.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 21 October, 2020, 07:57:46 AM
Feel for you, DDD, that's unbearably shit.

I'm lucky in that I live down the road from my parents (despite not having hugged them since Feb), but they now firmly believe they'll never see my Ozzer brother and his kids in person again, like some 19th C emigration tragedy. My mother has taken to facetiming them every day at 6am, which rather undermines that analogy, but only makes me think of awful desperation. Last night my other brother and his lovely wife,  separated in a different county for over a month now, told us all they were expecting their second sprog ... over fecking Zoom. At the weekend it was the same thing for my sister-in-law's 40th.

Such a terrible cost. It's a fucking mess.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 21 October, 2020, 09:13:30 AM
What gets me is how much of this was plainly avoidable. I have a friend in China who says this is largely over there now. You obviously have to take data from Chinese authorities with a fistful of salt, but he says life is just happening now. Occasionally, a neighbourhood will get locked down but generally, things have mostly returned to normal.

A recent Bunker interviewed someone from New Zealand, and there, too, everything seems to be basically back to how it was. The interviewee seemed a bit concerned about complacency; but by the same token, he was looking forward to a standard stadium rugby game, a trip to the cinema and having a meal at a cafe.

Politically, these two countries couldn't be more different, but they share one thing in common: political will. Those countries who have failed to any great extent have mostly (not all) lacked this. The USA, UK, Sweden and others who went for "ah, it'll all be fine" are perhaps the worst offenders; but you also see countries like Iceland who were doing so bloody well and then fucked everything up because tourism. Had they locked down for a year, taken it on the chin and enacted some form of UBI, they'd have been more like NZ rather than having a rapidly increasing infection rate for the first time.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: JayzusB.Christ on 21 October, 2020, 09:41:06 AM
Quote from: Funt Solo on 20 October, 2020, 11:05:53 PM
Wot? Ain't you 'eard of the "plandemic", then, Christ, me olde mucker? S'all a plot, innit?! That Gates fella, he's planned the 'ole shebang, he 'as.

It's like Robert Anton Wilson & Robert Shea never wrote The Illuminatis! Trilogy.

:lol:
But also  :'(


Sorry to hear about your situation, DDD.  Also yours, TB, and your folks'. 
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Rately on 21 October, 2020, 09:52:41 AM
Love to TB and DDD, I am sure we all have our struggles during this bizarre time, but i can't even begin to imagine how much you and your families are hurting.

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Bolt-01 on 21 October, 2020, 12:58:25 PM
Ah Phil, that's hard.

My mam lives down t'road in Hulme - and even though I've not seen her in the flesh since last christmas - I'm very lucky that she's savvy enough for us to instagram chat every weekend. I've missed out on none of my relations shenanigans and been able to keep my mam updated as to our situations.

I really feel for you in your situ.

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Funt Solo on 22 October, 2020, 04:05:07 PM
Coronavirus: Sweden's isolated elderly urged to rejoin society (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-54643070) ... so they can join the ranks of the dead.

Reading up on Sweden's approach (https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/10/it-s-been-so-so-surreal-critics-sweden-s-lax-pandemic-policies-face-fierce-backlash) it seems to consist of letting the vulnerable die but not counting them in the stats. Now all the economy-firsters point at Sweden and say "See - their death rate is low - herd immunity works!"
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 22 October, 2020, 06:02:29 PM
Quote from: Funt Solo on 22 October, 2020, 04:05:07 PM
Now all the economy-firsters point at Sweden and say "See - their death rate is low - herd immunity works!"

All of which is utterly enraging, because:

1) It's simply not true.

(https://i.imgur.com/QKgxqJ1.jpg)

2) There is no sign that Sweden is anywhere near 'herd immunity'. In fact, there are literally no examples of herd immunity arising through 'natural' infection cycles. No disease in human history has gone away because so many people got it that the population developed herd immunity — you need a vaccine for that.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 22 October, 2020, 08:00:46 PM
Last I heard, they had something like 6–10% immunity in the general population. You'd need, what, 40–50% for that to be remotely effective and around 80–90% to effectively eradicate a disease by leaving it with nowhere to go. Sweden's been a shitshow.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 22 October, 2020, 09:18:10 PM
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 22 October, 2020, 08:00:46 PM
Last I heard, they had something like 6–10% immunity in the general population...

And those antibodies don't even guarantee immunity.  I still can't get over the herd immunity stans: how'd that work out for TB, for one example?  One of my worries through all this is that my mother has impaired lung function due to TB as a child in the late '40s - one of 7000 cases a year then, and the epidemic had been running for 80 years at that point.  Only legally-enforced notification and isolation in sanatoriums and temporary quarantine structures in gardens brought it under control, and even then it wasn't hit on the head until universal vaccination of infants was introduced from the '50s. The natural route doesn't seem like something to pin your hopes on.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Funt Solo on 22 October, 2020, 10:03:22 PM
I had started to wonder if, at the heart of the Swedish policy, was a desire to let the disease cull the weak and elderly.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 22 October, 2020, 10:47:44 PM
Quote from: Funt Solo on 22 October, 2020, 10:03:22 PM
I had started to wonder if, at the heart of the Swedish policy, was a desire to let the disease cull the weak and elderly.

Again,  you mean?
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: sheridan on 22 October, 2020, 11:41:08 PM
Quote from: Funt Solo on 22 October, 2020, 10:03:22 PM
I had started to wonder if, at the heart of the Swedish policy, was a desire to let the disease cull the weak and elderly.

I thought that was what the difference between immunity and herd immunity was - immunity means in individual is now immune, herd immunity means that those who aren't immune are dead.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: JOE SOAP on 23 October, 2020, 12:59:20 AM
Antibodies are not guaranteed to last and T-cell immunity doesn't stop you getting or spreading it, it just helps lessen the severity of your symptoms, apparently.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 23 October, 2020, 11:50:40 AM
So this whole thing (and if I'm being entirely honest probably my steadily deteriorating mental health) has finally pushed me into creating my very own lockdown conspiracy theory. I won't set it out here, because the last thing we need is yet more counterproductive fantasy and for now I'm still clinging to a shred of social responsibility, but I am genuinely struggling with the way it competes with accepted reality.

It's like I'm focusing on a different screen with each eye, and the images swim across each other and blend and obscure, and sometimes I forget which is which. I know one is something I've come up with myself, and the other is what everyone around me is seeing, but it's an effort of will not to parse every piece of news or observation through the former. Even harder is trying not to proselytize those around me in order to ease the dissonance.

I wonder is this disturbing state the common experience of people who fall for things like QAnon?  I realise the latter is a deliberately malicious fabrication by the chan boys, rather than something individuals have made up in their own minds, but is this sense of experiencing conflicting realities, and in a sense being forced to consciously choose one, something that people go through?  Is it a type of mental illness, a form of schizophrenia say, rather than the mix of ignorance and lack of critical thinking that we like to paint it as?  If so, I may just have discovered a point of sympathy with not just the tragic Dave Sim types, but also some of the people I most dislike in this world.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 23 October, 2020, 01:36:25 PM

It's not the way the wind blows, it's how the sails are set.

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 23 October, 2020, 02:15:56 PM

Also:

"Two Windows" - a poem

Two windows made of glass
One is black
One is clear
One window shows me elsewhere
The other shows me here
One window illuminates a world seemingly
gone mad
Spectacles of hatred and everything that's bad
The other instills calmness with clouds up in
the sky
Green grass with dandelions and songbirds
flying by
The first window is bright but the light is
artificial
The second one is lit by none other than the
sun
The first window is selling things and telling me
they're beneficial
Window two has far less for sale than does
window one
The first window shows me people who lie and
steal and cheat
The second one has children riding bicycles
down the street
From the first I get the notion that sex is no
big deal
My wife is pregnant in the other one proving
miracles are real
I see her stewarding our garden with her hands
tending to the dirt
Meanwhile on the first one I see people
getting hurt
The first window has programs and channels to
peruse
And lots of lots of opinions masquerading as
the news
Information from the second indicates that
there's a breeze
By the leaves there gently swaying on the
branches of my trees
Window one I gaze straight into
Window two I look right through
Window one is done with a button
Two turns on with each new dawn to start the
day anew
Oh what would be if window one were here no
more
Would stories revert to verbal like they were
in days of yore?
Would the pace of life slow down, would
attention spans increase?
And what about the rate of crimes, would their
quantity decrease?
Perhaps that day will never come, so all I can
do is ponder
While I glance outside the second one which
inspires me to wander
And get to know the world I'm in, the domain
in which I dwell
The one that I feel warmth in, the one that I
can smell
Window one can be fun but it also likes to steal
My time and my emotions and my sense of
what is real
Window two is just a window and it's clearer
when it's clean
Better to fix one's eyes on nature than to fixate
on the screen

~ Benny Wills, Stand-Up Poet
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Funt Solo on 23 October, 2020, 03:00:46 PM
Quote from: TordelBack on 23 October, 2020, 11:50:40 AM
So this whole thing (and if I'm being entirely honest probably my steadily deteriorating mental health) has finally pushed me into creating my very own lockdown conspiracy theory. I won't set it out here, because the last thing we need is yet more counterproductive fantasy and for now I'm still clinging to a shred of social responsibility, but I am genuinely struggling with the way it competes with accepted reality.

It's like I'm focusing on a different screen with each eye, and the images swim across each other and blend and obscure, and sometimes I forget which is which. I know one is something I've come up with myself, and the other is what everyone around me is seeing, but it's an effort of will not to parse every piece of news or observation through the former. Even harder is trying not to proselytize those around me in order to ease the dissonance.

I wonder is this disturbing state the common experience of people who fall for things like QAnon?  I realise the latter is a deliberately malicious fabrication by the chan boys, rather than something individuals have made up in their own minds, but is this sense of experiencing conflicting realities, and in a sense being forced to consciously choose one, something that people go through?  Is it a type of mental illness, a form of schizophrenia say, rather than the mix of ignorance and lack of critical thinking that we like to paint it as?  If so, I may just have discovered a point of sympathy with not just the tragic Dave Sim types, but also some of the people I most dislike in this world.

It's too abstract a question for me to tackle. If someone asked me if I thought they were hallucinating, I'd need to know what it was they (thought) they were seeing. And if they'd ingested any mushrooms.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Funt Solo on 23 October, 2020, 03:53:41 PM
QuoteInformation from the second indicates that
there's a breeze
By the leaves there gently swaying on the
branches of my trees

It's a nice sentiment: focus on what's in front of you rather than the television.  I did notice that in the poem his wife is toiling in the field doing back-breaking work while he's gazing out the window getting inspiration for his next piece.

There are, of course, arguments in favor of weather forecasting - like warning of an incoming hurricane, for example.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 23 October, 2020, 04:23:45 PM

Worse, his pregnant wife is toiling in the field doing back-breaking work while he's gazing out the window getting inspiration for his next piece.

Now, that's a proper poet...

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Funt Solo on 23 October, 2020, 06:26:40 PM
The other problem with agrarian bliss is that it's bloody hard work (not least if it's all left to the pregnant folk). Also, if you force the issue, you're suddenly Pol Pot. Oh, and it takes up too much room for humanity  - the Dutch are busy figuring out efficient ways to farm at the scale required to make it work for everyone, and not just those hippies in that croft over there.

That entire poem is a bit daft, really. What's the polite term? Parochial.

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 23 October, 2020, 06:59:30 PM

I also know a limerick about a well endowed young Bengali gentleman but it's not quite as refined.

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Funt Solo on 23 October, 2020, 07:10:14 PM
There was a young man that said farming
Was adequate and even quite charming
With science being left for the birds
He sung us a long-winded dirge
But it made no fucking sense
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 23 October, 2020, 07:44:39 PM


There was a young lady named Nelly,
Who gardened with a babe in her belly,
Her hubby, a poet,
Advised her to hoe it,
And to not mistake Life for the telly.

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Funt Solo on 23 October, 2020, 09:29:44 PM
Ah, my 3rd and 4th lines are too long, aren't they.

Reminds me of:

There was a young man from Dundee
Who was stung on the leg by a wasp
When they asked, "Does it hurt?"
He said, "Yes, it does
Thank goodness it wasn't a hornet!"

(In that, it's all in the tempo, not the rhyming.)

---

Also, Covid.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Funt Solo on 26 October, 2020, 12:27:57 AM
Real headline from the BBC:

(https://i.imgur.com/JiKGEmB.png)

(One assumes this story involved an adult finding out the truth after many years of magical thinking.)
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 26 October, 2020, 07:28:21 AM

Aaand there's the story that suggests this current War on Terror Microbes is bedding in for a long stay.

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 29 October, 2020, 08:55:41 AM
Dr Dominic Pimenta, writer of 'Duty of Care', and chairman of "Help Them Help Us', the NHS charity, has been involved in building this COVID simulator. It takes certain key info, such as 7 day death averages, and types of lockdowns, and then works out likely totals over subsequent months.

He says: " This is now an underestimate but gives an idea on the maths."

Try it out.

https://modernsocietyinitiative.org/experimental-covid-sim


If you want to get a more complete understanding of how the simulator works, recommendations based on the numbers it shows, and much more besides, I recommend his thread on Twitter:

https://twitter.com/drdompimenta/status/1318268864799690754?s=21
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Rately on 29 October, 2020, 09:10:31 AM
Rumour in NI is that we are headed into a 6-8 week Lock-down.

I'm still working from Office, but i can't see that being possible very soon, especially if things are going to be as bad as predicted.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Rately on 29 October, 2020, 09:21:57 AM
This is sobering, and absolutely terrifying.

https://twitter.com/Laurie_Garrett/status/1321627987847139329?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 29 October, 2020, 09:52:06 AM
Everything is pointing to the whole of the U.K. needing a hard lockdown right now to avoid the worst of hospitalisations and deaths. And it's going to be bad anyway.

Based on current deaths, here's what the figures look like if we have a hard lockdown immediately, returning to regional lockdowns in a month (see pics).

More info in this BBC report:

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-54723962

(https://i.imgur.com/KKPFRnU.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/mJiiuye.jpg)



Incidentally, SAGE warned the U.K. government of this in September, demanding immediate action. What action was taken? None. In fact, worse than none - it deliberately ignored the advice, and also the protestations from Welsh and Scottish FMs, plus councils around England.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/oct/12/ministers-rejected-four-out-five-proposals-from-sage-to-avert-covid-second-wave
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 29 October, 2020, 09:58:35 AM
Quote from: Rately on 29 October, 2020, 09:21:57 AM
This is sobering, and absolutely terrifying.

https://twitter.com/Laurie_Garrett/status/1321627987847139329?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Etweet

Yeah, that is a crazy picture. It really shows what difference government policy makes.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Rately on 29 October, 2020, 10:02:37 AM
Led by donkeys.

I hope, somewhere down the line, that criminal charges are brought against some of these supposed Leaders.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 31 October, 2020, 05:00:21 AM
Quote from: Rately on 29 October, 2020, 10:02:37 AM
Led by donkeys.

I hope, somewhere down the line, that criminal charges are brought against some of these supposed Leaders.

Agreed! And it gets worse!!

Well, this makes for fury-inducing reading.

Sept 21: SAGE calls for 2-3 week lockdown. PM refuses, keeps their advice secret.

Oct 13: SAGE advice is finally published on the 12th (see link), which is the first time anyone has seen it. Starmer calls for 2-3 week lockdown on the same day he sees SAGE advice. Government dithers.

Oct 30: Government scientists say it's now too late for a 2-3 week lockdown and it'll have to be longer.

Papers are reporting the government will shortly announce a full-on four week lockdown.

So it's over a month since the SAGE advice, cases are now skyrocketing, and a three week lag means we're going to see a horrific number of deaths even while in a four week lockdown.

Throughout this, an already stressed-to-breaking-point NHS will have to somehow stay going as we potentially see a situation WORSE than March/April.

Can we not have Johnson arrested? There MUST be a law against this level of life-ending incompetence.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/fifty-eighth-sage-meeting-on-covid-19-21-september-2020
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 31 October, 2020, 08:39:34 AM
Quote from: shaolin_monkey on 31 October, 2020, 05:00:21 AM
Oct 30: Government scientists say it's now too late for a 2-3 week lockdown and it'll have to be longer.

Papers are reporting the government will shortly announce a full-on four week lockdown.

TBH, I've never seen the logic of a two week lockdown. Someone infected just before the lockdown starts could just about still be in the asymptomatic phase, or exhibiting very minor symptoms when the lockdown ends. That's the reason New Zealand (amongst others) went straight to a four week lockdown at the start — it's two full infection cycles.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: JayzusB.Christ on 31 October, 2020, 12:22:30 PM
We're two weeks into a six-week lockdown here in Ireland.  Seems to be having some results at least.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 31 October, 2020, 02:43:09 PM
Quote from: JayzusB.Christ on 31 October, 2020, 12:22:30 PM
We're two weeks into a six-week lockdown here in Ireland.  Seems to be having some results at least.

Keep us updated! Six weeks sounds like it might be just the thing.

Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 31 October, 2020, 08:39:34 AM
Quote from: shaolin_monkey on 31 October, 2020, 05:00:21 AM
Oct 30: Government scientists say it's now too late for a 2-3 week lockdown and it'll have to be longer.

Papers are reporting the government will shortly announce a full-on four week lockdown.

TBH, I've never seen the logic of a two week lockdown. Someone infected just before the lockdown starts could just about still be in the asymptomatic phase, or exhibiting very minor symptoms when the lockdown ends. That's the reason New Zealand (amongst others) went straight to a four week lockdown at the start — it's two full infection cycles.

Agree 100%. In fact there's a whole host of things NZ did that the U.K. didn't, including airport closures/quarantines, and ensuring the welfare of pretty much everyone during lockdown.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 31 October, 2020, 03:44:43 PM
What do you reckon Johnson's Halloween outfit will be when he makes the announcement?

My money's on this one.

(https://i.imgur.com/mUjR6DG.jpg)

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 31 October, 2020, 03:54:58 PM
Quote from: JayzusB.Christ on 31 October, 2020, 12:22:30 PM
We're two weeks into a six-week lockdown here in Ireland.  Seems to be having some results at least.

It's not a real lockdown though, is it? For example, other than the 5km limit nothing has changed for anyone in my household from Level 3. Construction, schools, shopping centers, most offices etc. all still going. The 4 of us are having exactly the same number of contacts as before, we just can't go for a swim. Centra is still full of unmasked builders buying chicken fillet rolls and shouting into phones, the streets are still full of gangs of kids building bonfires.

My unqualified observer's view would be that there's no chance that this will be as effective as the first lockdown, and slightly improved numbers we're seeing are still the very gradual results of Level 3, not the current confusing, divisive, half-arsed lobbyist-wanking measures.

Six weeks of this followed by Christmas socialising and shopping just isn't going to do it, it's just prolonging misery for those not in WFH employment, and afterwards the complete failure will be used to argue against ever trying lockdown again.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: JayzusB.Christ on 31 October, 2020, 06:00:41 PM
Fair enough. I hadn't realised the half-arsedness of it; I suppose living on my own in a small boat community in the sticks has cut me off a bit. And, although I know it's daft, I'm avoiding the news a bit because it causes me so much anxiety. 
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 31 October, 2020, 06:12:23 PM
You and me both, lad. Please don't mind me, I'm no longer remotely rational about this stuff, I've lost the tiniest bit of faith I had left in politicians and their ability to do anything other than graft in their own interests. It's just one deranged rant after another from me now, but obviously I hope against hope that i am as far detached from reality as I feel, and it all does work as advertised.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 01 November, 2020, 07:57:38 AM

I haven't watched tv (except for films and serials) for about five years now and feel way better for it. It's not easy to break the habit and took me a while.

As to the feelings of fear and disconnection, I sympathise fully. I went through something similar in around 2007 when I learned about certain aspects of certain official narratives. My entire perspective on the world shifted and that was truly terrifying for me, ushering crippling paranoia and paralysing fear into my life.

But these feelings passed, leaving behind a sense of scepticism and a far more relaxed mindset. It was like getting an inoculation to toxic bullshit and was utterly horrid to go through but I'm glad I did.

Everyone I know is constantly afraid, and it's hurting their minds. This is what worries me more than anything else, and what angers me most of all.

Stay well, my friends, and believe in yourselves as far as you can. You will get through this and emerge the stronger for it - because if I can get through it, anybody can.

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 01 November, 2020, 08:48:16 PM
Cheers Sharky, useful perspective.

Kids back to school tomorrow, after a midterm week with little Hallowe'en and no friends or relatives, spent within 5km of the house. This time last year we were reflecting on a great few days tramping around Donegal and Derry, and how we'd have to do it again next (this) year. Tonight my main thought is how nice it was to have a break from wondering if today was the day my kids would come home from school and inadvertently kill my wife. Such larks.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Definitely Not Mister Pops on 02 November, 2020, 01:31:58 AM
Well, I'm just after getting over this wretched disease*. Just in time for my Birthday, which is nice. I believe I caught it because my eejit of a boss caught a serious dose of job insecurity and had me in the office every day since the start of August for no good reason. I walk to work (about a 5 mile round trip, good exercise) and pass half a dozen educational facilities on the way. Primary secondary and tertiary educational facilities with swarms of unmasked wee plague monkeys in orbit. The on site precautions in schools are meaningless outside the gates. So I caught it.

Now, I've had worse doses of the flu, but it always has shifted in a few days, it's never lasted longer than a week. I'm quite healthy and I've been off the fags for about 5 years** now, so I had no fear of this killing me. But the damn thing wouldn't shift. For most of October I have felt like I've been doing serious workouts without warming up properly. Just constant aching and tired. What little energy I have had has been funneled into fury that I had to go into the office in the first place, and that even though I have been wearing face coverings, other people live in scunthorpe.

I take small comfort in the fact that my manager has been officially reprimanded. He's not a bad skin, to be honest I think he had us in because he was fearful for his job. Middle managers*** are redundant in a WFH environment where efficiency is increasing.

TLDR: Caught the COVID, wouldn't recommend. 0.3333333333333333333333/5

*Tested positive on 5th October
**Off the devil's lettuce for 6 years n'all
***Glorified supervisors
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 02 November, 2020, 11:24:39 AM
Ouch, sorry to hear that Mr. P,  sounds like a grim month. So much of this unnecessary office nonsense.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: broodblik on 02 November, 2020, 11:57:49 AM
There is no-logic in working in office when you can work from home.  How some of these people can justify the unnecessary risk they put on others, is just beyond me.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: sheridan on 02 November, 2020, 12:48:04 PM
Quote from: broodblik on 02 November, 2020, 11:57:49 AM
There is no-logic in working in office when you can work from home.  How some of these people can justify the unnecessary risk they put on others, is just beyond me.

Where I work - "because the government recommend it", i.e. the Nuremberg defence.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: JayzusB.Christ on 02 November, 2020, 12:57:26 PM
Quote from: Mister Pops on 02 November, 2020, 01:31:58 AM
Well, I'm just after getting over this wretched disease*. Just in time for my Birthday, which is nice. I believe I caught it because my eejit of a boss caught a serious dose of job insecurity and had me in the office every day since the start of August for no good reason. I walk to work (about a 5 mile round trip, good exercise) and pass half a dozen educational facilities on the way. Primary secondary and tertiary educational facilities with swarms of unmasked wee plague monkeys in orbit. The on site precautions in schools are meaningless outside the gates. So I caught it.

Now, I've had worse doses of the flu, but it always has shifted in a few days, it's never lasted longer than a week. I'm quite healthy and I've been off the fags for about 5 years** now, so I had no fear of this killing me. But the damn thing wouldn't shift. For most of October I have felt like I've been doing serious workouts without warming up properly. Just constant aching and tired. What little energy I have had has been funneled into fury that I had to go into the office in the first place, and that even though I have been wearing face coverings, other people live in scunthorpe.

I take small comfort in the fact that my manager has been officially reprimanded. He's not a bad skin, to be honest I think he had us in because he was fearful for his job. Middle managers*** are redundant in a WFH environment where efficiency is increasing.

TLDR: Caught the COVID, wouldn't recommend. 0.3333333333333333333333/5

*Tested positive on 5th October
**Off the devil's lettuce for 6 years n'all
***Glorified supervisors

Bloody hell. Rough old time for you there.  Glad you're over it now - I think you may be our first infected boarder?
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: von Boom on 02 November, 2020, 07:16:58 PM
Glad to hear you're on the mend MP. Shame you got it since it could have been avoided.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Definitely Not Mister Pops on 02 November, 2020, 08:19:41 PM
Quote from: JayzusB.Christ on 02 November, 2020, 12:57:26 PM
I think you may be our first infected boarder?

HUZZAH FOR ME! IN YOUR FACES LOSERS!
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 02 November, 2020, 09:50:26 PM
Quote from: Mister Pops on 02 November, 2020, 08:19:41 PM
IN YOUR FACES LOSERS!

2m please.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 02 November, 2020, 10:29:24 PM
 

The prize (apart from surviving, that is,) is, I am given to understand, the ideal gift for a desert nomad with a broken heart - a stylish Bedouin stent.

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: paddykafka on 03 November, 2020, 10:57:07 AM
And this week's Darwin Award goes to the knuckle-dragging morons pictured in this video. Proof-positive that there are some brain-dead, selfish cretins in this world who actually enjoy being stupid.

https://www.buzz.ie/amp/news/videos-maskless-protestors-harass-passengers-on-luas-397478

https://www.thejournal.ie/gardacctv-luas-protest-footage-5252925-Nov2020/

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Rately on 03 November, 2020, 11:09:01 AM
Quote from: paddykafka on 03 November, 2020, 10:57:07 AM
And this week's Darwin Award goes to the knuckle-dragging morons pictured in this video. Proof-positive that there are some brain-dead, selfish cretins in this world who actually enjoy being stupid.

https://www.buzz.ie/amp/news/videos-maskless-protestors-harass-passengers-on-luas-397478

https://www.thejournal.ie/gardacctv-luas-protest-footage-5252925-Nov2020/

The mix of arrogance and stupidity is dangerous. Boils my blood to see their stupidity on twitter and FB, but to see this kind of reckless endangerment. Time severe Prison sentences were handed down.

We live in a world where people take their medical advice from Jim Corr, rather than people who have studied and worked hard for years to gain Degrees in Medicine. I despair.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 03 November, 2020, 11:22:37 AM
Prison is a waste of money. Some hurls and a dark alley seem more appropriate, seeing as they want live in a world without laws designed to protect the vulnerable.

Quote from: The Legendary Shark on 02 November, 2020, 10:29:24 PM
...a stylish Bedouin stent.

Also, we need to keep prison space available for the real criminals.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Rately on 03 November, 2020, 11:47:27 AM
Quote from: TordelBack on 03 November, 2020, 11:22:37 AM
Prison is a waste of money. Some hurls and a dark alley seem more appropriate, seeing as they want live in a world without laws designed to protect the vulnerable.

Quote from: The Legendary Shark on 02 November, 2020, 10:29:24 PM
...a stylish Bedouin stent.

Also, we need to keep prison space available for the real criminals.

Not a violent person, but a hurl to the side of the head of some of them seems a nice compromise.

It certainly won't affect their IQ.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 03 November, 2020, 12:19:17 PM
A relative of my kid's classmate (not parents) got confirmed COVID. The kids also spent a few hours on Friday together at a small gathering (within rule of six). In hindsight, we probably shouldn't have allowed that, but the kids are all in the same class bubble anyway and are in each-other's pockets at school. We've been very careful to date, but one slip and, well... I mean, this doesn't mean we're definitely going to get it, but the chances just went up substantially—and now I'm even more paranoid about every little tickle. (I've had a bad throat on and off since the start of the year!)

Fun times...
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: JayzusB.Christ on 03 November, 2020, 01:03:30 PM
Quote from: paddykafka on 03 November, 2020, 10:57:07 AM
And this week's Darwin Award goes to the knuckle-dragging morons pictured in this video. Proof-positive that there are some brain-dead, selfish cretins in this world who actually enjoy being stupid.

https://www.buzz.ie/amp/news/videos-maskless-protestors-harass-passengers-on-luas-397478

https://www.thejournal.ie/gardacctv-luas-protest-footage-5252925-Nov2020/

Dear Grud, my countrymen can be right dimwitted, inconsiderate scumbags sometimes.  Get the decent people out of that tram, seal the windows and doors, pump in some Covid19 and let them enjoy their maskless freedom for a few weeks.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: von Boom on 03 November, 2020, 04:28:16 PM
Quote from: JayzusB.Christ on 03 November, 2020, 01:03:30 PM
Quote from: paddykafka on 03 November, 2020, 10:57:07 AM
And this week's Darwin Award goes to the knuckle-dragging morons pictured in this video. Proof-positive that there are some brain-dead, selfish cretins in this world who actually enjoy being stupid.

https://www.buzz.ie/amp/news/videos-maskless-protestors-harass-passengers-on-luas-397478

https://www.thejournal.ie/gardacctv-luas-protest-footage-5252925-Nov2020/

Dear Grud, my countrymen can be right dimwitted, inconsiderate scumbags sometimes.  Get the decent people out of that tram, seal the windows and doors, pump in some Covid19 and let them enjoy their maskless freedom for a few weeks.
I'll do you one further. Make them guinea pigs for human vaccine trials and revoke their rights to health care if they do come down with covid.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 03 November, 2020, 08:50:30 PM

Yet another "us" and "them" problem. One more division. One more defeat.

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Funt Solo on 03 November, 2020, 09:42:08 PM
Quote from: The Legendary Shark on 03 November, 2020, 08:50:30 PM
Yet another "us" and "them" problem. One more division. One more defeat.

A bunch of moronic, aggressive bullies on a bus, being deliberate turds to those around them. Don't make out that there's some kind of cosmic balance thing at stake. Please.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 03 November, 2020, 10:12:51 PM
Tiny bit of context needed, which understandably some of us may lack: these are people who, if not ones themselves (which I have no way of knowing), have publicly allied themselves with the rallies of violent racists and anti-LGBTQ scum (I use the term advisedly). In the video they are abusing passengers who can be really only on that team as essential workers during a Level 5 lockdown. Said tram runs through one major hospital campus, and to another. Public transport is operating at 25% capacity, so in addition to workers the tram is the only option for many people who need to attend appointments.

I respect the importance of the right to protest government policy,  even at this time. However these actions are a complete abandonment of personal responsibility and decency by a tiny gaggle of utter pricks, really not "us" and "them". They are "us", just the worst of us.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: JayzusB.Christ on 03 November, 2020, 11:10:41 PM
Quote from: TordelBack on 03 November, 2020, 10:12:51 PM
Tiny bit of context needed, which understandably some of us may lack: these are people who, if not ones themselves (which I have no way of knowing), have publicly allied themselves with the rallies of violent racists and anti-LGBTQ scum (I use the term advisedly).

He's not wrong there, folks.  The two figureheads of the Irish anti-mask campaign truly are human drain waste.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 04 November, 2020, 10:03:42 AM

My comment was intended to embrace a wider context. Apologies for my lack of clarity.

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 04 November, 2020, 10:41:01 AM
Quote from: The Legendary Shark on 04 November, 2020, 10:03:42 AM

My comment was intended to embrace a wider context. Apologies for my lack of clarity.

And likewise for misinterpreting your post.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 04 November, 2020, 12:04:06 PM

>Hugz<

:D

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Batman's Superior Cousin on 09 November, 2020, 12:03:41 PM
First vaccine offers 90% protection (//http://://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-54873105)
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Funt Solo on 09 November, 2020, 06:04:51 PM
Quote from: Batman's Superior Cousin on 09 November, 2020, 12:03:41 PM
First vaccine offers 90% protection (//http://://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-54873105)

Yay! Science!
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 09 November, 2020, 07:05:06 PM

Hmm, that link doesn't work for me.

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 09 November, 2020, 07:11:28 PM

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-54873105

In case anyone else is having trouble.

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: JayzusB.Christ on 09 November, 2020, 09:54:50 PM
Cheers, Sharky.   If this works out well, I wonder if vaccination parties (the fun ones, not the political ones) will be a thing.  Either way up, fingers crossed that we're looking at the beginning of the end.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Funt Solo on 09 November, 2020, 11:24:57 PM
Aye, thanks for fixing the linky, Sharky.

I was trying to remember Churchill's speech after victory in North Africa over Rommel: "Now this is not the end. It is not even the beginning of the end. but it is, perhaps, the end of the beginning."
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Batman's Superior Cousin on 09 November, 2020, 11:51:30 PM
Quote from: The Legendary Shark on 09 November, 2020, 07:11:28 PM

https://www.bbc.com/news/health-54873105

In case anyone else is having trouble.

Sorry about the boken link people, I don't know why it wasn't working (though it was working fine on another forum).
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 12 November, 2020, 12:31:53 PM
Fascinated by how eager people are to ensure a third wave of this shite in the new year. Sitting here watching 600 deaths in the UK yesterday (that's over 25 times the average UK suicide and road deaths rate combined, BTW, "with Covid" fans) and my Irish news feeds are basically just people lobbying to have December be business as usual here. How can anyone look at European deaths today and think: "let's forget about restrictions, it's Christmas!".

Halfway through the current lockdown today, and I'm sick to fucking death of it. Not a single person I know personally is adhering to the guidelines, not one, and secondary schools are approaching 50% with confirmed cases and still effectively no testing in the school setting.  Meanwhile HSE just now *considering* including identifying sources of transmission in contact tracing, when this has been established as a priority goal for controlling spread since the spring. Another year of this beckons.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Definitely Not Mister Pops on 12 November, 2020, 12:56:35 PM
Take heart Mister Back. At least the guidelines on mitigating the spread where you are doesn't depend on Sínn Fein and the DUP agreeing on something.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 12 November, 2020, 12:56:46 PM
Ach, please ignore my previous post.  I'm in a right grump this morning, bleating on about what's just part of everyone's life these days is pointless whining. Seeing viral posts about how the Army are mass-microchipping kids in schools when all this is going on, the repetitive stupidity just knocks me down, and sitting in the house alone all day I end up spewing out shite here.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 12 November, 2020, 01:15:29 PM
Quote from: TordelBack on 12 November, 2020, 12:56:46 PM
the repetitive stupidity just knocks me down, and sitting in the house alone all day I end up spewing out shite here.

If spewing out shite here is remotely therapeutic, carry on, TB!
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: JayzusB.Christ on 12 November, 2020, 01:30:21 PM
I don't mean to make light of it all, but..

https://mobile.twitter.com/AccidentalP/status/1326190441352540160?s=08 (https://mobile.twitter.com/AccidentalP/status/1326190441352540160?s=08)
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Rately on 12 November, 2020, 02:55:54 PM
Quote from: JayzusB.Christ on 12 November, 2020, 01:30:21 PM
I don't mean to make light of it all, but..

https://mobile.twitter.com/AccidentalP/status/1326190441352540160?s=08 (https://mobile.twitter.com/AccidentalP/status/1326190441352540160?s=08)

Sweet Christ. Delivery by Yodel.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 17 November, 2020, 06:23:04 PM

Coronavirus came to Italy almost 6 months before the first official case, new study shows. (https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2020/11/coronavirus-italy-covid-19-pandemic-europe-date-antibodies-study?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social_scheduler&utm_term=Italy&utm_content=16%2F11%2F2020+16%3A00)

Caveat: I have little trust in this source as the WEF is using the current situation to advance its own agenda. However, I cannot see how revealing that this ostensibly dangerous virus appeared (at least) six months before it was officially detected without setting off any alarm bells can help their cause. If it was in Italy so early, and with no global house arrests lockdowns or travel restrictions in place, how many other countries were "infected" months before "official" diagnoses?

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Funt Solo on 17 November, 2020, 06:40:40 PM
Why is "infected" in quotation marks?
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 17 November, 2020, 06:50:35 PM

Because I used the word "countries" rather than "people." One suspects that if the word had not been in quotation marks, your question would have been, "how do you infect a country?"

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: M.I.K. on 17 November, 2020, 06:53:27 PM
There's nothing "ostensible" about it. I've a cousin who's been left with an enlarged heart because of it. There was sod all wrong with him before.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Funt Solo on 17 November, 2020, 07:05:07 PM
Quote from: The Legendary Shark on 17 November, 2020, 06:23:04 PM
without setting off any alarm bells

The last paragraph goes some way to explaining that:

QuoteItalian researchers told Reuters in March that they reported a higher than usual number of cases of severe pneumonia and flu in Lombardy in the last quarter of 2019 in a sign that the new coronavirus might have circulated earlier than previously thought.

It took time to realize that what was killing people (mostly older and/or more vulnerable patients) was a new virus. The fact that the exact starting point of the virus remains unknown isn't terribly new news (or very surprising) - but it would seem like the study that's being reported on here sets the start date further back in time than was previously known.

I'm not sure there's an answer to your question, though. How many other countries? Uhm ... some? Many? A few? Maybe we'll know that later. Is it super-important?

M.I.K. makes a good point. If it weren't dangerous, why all the fuss? And the deaths. And the long-term illnesses? Etc.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: sheridan on 17 November, 2020, 07:54:14 PM
Quote from: Funt Solo on 17 November, 2020, 07:05:07 PM
It took time to realize that what was killing people (mostly older and/or more vulnerable patients) was a new virus. The fact that the exact starting point of the virus remains unknown isn't terribly new news (or very surprising) - but it would seem like the study that's being reported on here sets the start date further back in time than was previously known.

True dat.

Reminds me of the origins of HIV/AIDS.  Quiz time - when do you think the first confirmed (from preserved blood samples) death from AIDS was?  [spoiler]1959[/spoiler]  And when would you guess HIV jumped across the species to humans (having come from SIV - Simian Immunodeficiency Virus)?  We don't have convenient blood samples, but it's believed to be [spoiler]1908[/spoiler].
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 17 November, 2020, 08:11:38 PM


Quote from: Funt Solo on 07 April, 2020, 11:44:20 PM

Can't resist the urge to expose the misinformation you presented...



Quote from: The Legendary Shark on 07 April, 2020, 06:17:33 PM
originating in China or the US

Another example of false balance. It was China (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coronavirus_disease_2019).


Quote from: Funt Solo on 17 November, 2020, 07:05:07 PM

The fact that the exact starting point of the virus remains unknown isn't terribly new news (or very surprising)...


I know.

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Funt Solo on 17 November, 2020, 08:20:25 PM
It's still probably China, based on current evidence. No evidence whatsoever suggests the US as the origin point.

I'm willing to be proved wrong on new evidence. That's science, for you.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Funt Solo on 17 November, 2020, 08:39:26 PM
Honestly, I'm pretty angry that you're still peddling the idea that it might be harmless by using phrases such as "ostensibly dangerous", then trying to throw me under the bus for pointing out that you were talking the same shite months ago.

You managed to pick the one quote that fit your narrative and ignore all the other things you were saying at the time like "natural or man-made", and "lethal or innocuous" and "overblown or under-reported".

I get it: you think the virus is a hoax and blah blah blah. I don't. Can't we move on?
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 17 November, 2020, 09:06:24 PM

See? We do agree. The origin is uncertain, which is why it is "super important" to track its progress in as much detail as possible and to consider all the evidence rather than just pointing at Wikipedia.
(That's science, for you.)

***

Your emotions are not my responsibility.

The original post you picked apart, as I pointed out at the time, took no position on either side and was intended to point out the worrying statistic that around a third of the planet was under lockdown.

I never said the virus was a hoax (though I have to consider that it mightbe). My worry is that the situation is being magnified and capitalised upon by certain globalist factions to achieve goals they've been working towards for decades - such as global governance, the abolition of cash money, increased dependence on authority and so on.

And sure, maybe I'm wrong, but so much of this doesn't add up, so much doesn't seem to get reported very well or at all. And the evidence of my own eyes, looking at the real world I live in locally, sees that the majority of problems are arising from policy and not the virus. Which does not mean "blah, blah, blah," or that the virus is a hoax.

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Funt Solo on 17 November, 2020, 09:15:16 PM
Explain "ostensibly dangerous", please.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Funt Solo on 17 November, 2020, 09:28:56 PM
Actually, forget it. I'm stupid for biting. There's nothing here but pointless conflict.

Sorry for derailing the thread into stupid territory.

I retire.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 01 December, 2020, 08:22:19 AM
Let's say I wanted to kill the maximum number of elderly people.

What I'd probably do is shut hospitality and most of retail for 6 weeks, and stop all visits to nursing homes. Get everyone good and fed up, and oh so lonely.

Then, before new infections drop too much below 300 a day,  I'd open up all the shops on 1st December to ensure the maximum number of bored and frustrated festive shoppers pour into public transport and into town on the same day.

Bur here's the clever part of my plan: I'd restart visits to nursing homes, but I'd do it 1 week later. That extra week should amp up pure desperation for human contact, and be long enough to ensure maximum chance of visitors being infected but not long enough to guarantee symptoms.

If that didn't kill quite enough, I'd send all those shoppers, pub and restaurant goers home to their kids (who already account for 50% of new infections), who can then marinade in classrooms for 2 weeks before being decanted and sent round to their Nana's for a last Christmas hug.

For this kind of genius I expect a salary of not less than  €96,000, plus whatever kickbacks I'm getting from lobby groups.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 01 December, 2020, 08:41:47 AM
Oh forgot to mention, R no.is hovering about 1, and 84% of Irish people polled thought current, (ie prior to today) restrictions were appropriate, or not strict enough.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Definitely Not Mister Pops on 01 December, 2020, 09:08:12 AM
I know it's a bit of a cliché, but never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 01 December, 2020, 09:15:21 AM
Quote from: Mister Pops on 01 December, 2020, 09:08:12 AM
I know it's a bit of a cliché, but never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence.

I'll take the middle ground: greed. I wouldn't ascribe homicidal motives, but the results wont be much different. Competence is provided to government in the public health team's advice, completely ignoring it is all about personal and professional gain.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: sheridan on 01 December, 2020, 10:15:13 AM
Quote from: TordelBack on 01 December, 2020, 09:15:21 AM
Quote from: Mister Pops on 01 December, 2020, 09:08:12 AM
I know it's a bit of a cliché, but never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence.

I'll take the middle ground: greed. I wouldn't ascribe homicidal motives, but the results wont be much different. Competence is provided to government in the public health team's advice, completely ignoring it is all about personal and professional gain.

Ordinarily I'd assume incompetence, but the theory outlined above would help reduce the pensions crisis in this country (and our beloved government do keep banging on about the economy).
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 01 December, 2020, 10:37:28 AM
I think they're a combination of lazy and driven by economics. When you look at everything — COVID; Brexit — through that lens, most of the choices being made make a lot more sense. So they don't care for details, only listen to what they want to hear, and make decisions on short-term economic factors. Hence we have the absurd notion right now of thousands of people being packed into stadiums again, for potentially hundreds of weekly super-spreader events, shops reopening, and Christmas free-for-all, when there are vaccines on the way.

I also suspect the government needs to be setting expectations regarding vaccines a lot better. There's a lot of "we've got this under control" (half true—but that really means flattened rather than squashed) and "life will return to normal next spring". On the last of those, it just won't. We'll need to vaccinate something in the region of 30–40 million people for things to return to something approaching normal. Govt estimate—which, let's face it, was probably very optimistic—was one million a week. Unless that can be ramped up substantially, next Christmas could be normal again, but even next summer probably won't be for many.

(That said, some normalisation can occur with staggered rollouts. For example, if my parents got vaccinated, my kid could start seeing them again.)
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 01 December, 2020, 10:38:51 AM
Spent most of yesterday battling with Covid conspiracy theorists and general-purpose anti-vaxxers on my home town's community Facebook page. The confidence with which they trot out astonishingly obvious falsehoods, utterly debunked 'sources', or fall back on "I'm not going to do your research for you — it's all on the internet" is terrifying and depressing in equal measure.

I'm increasingly coming to the view that, although I've found social media to be a net benefit in my life, in aggregate it's doing far more harm than good.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 01 December, 2020, 12:07:21 PM
It's the manner in which parroted slogans and concepts proliferate over social media that really irritates me. Over and over again you see the same half-dozen nonsensical phrases thrown into every argument, each time as if they've just pulled a royal flush out of their arse and you're just too dumb to recognise the cards. "Great reset!".

I'd differentiate this from people who present complex arguments, with different priorities or weightings given to studies and projections etc. And thus different (wrong) conclusions.  It's frustrating, but they're at least trying to navigate this mess through observation and reason (and bias) same as the rest of us.

Or even perhaps those that present personal anecdotes as evidence (I'm thinking of anti-vax horror stories here): while it's unwise to place your individual experience ahead of the merciless number-crunching of science, I can still at least understand the impulse (having done a fair bit of it myself recently).

But chanting internet slogans in lieu of any argument, I just don't get.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 01 December, 2020, 01:10:09 PM

A closer look at U.S. deaths due to COVID-19. (https://web.archive.org/web/20201126163323/https://www.jhunewsletter.com/article/2020/11/a-closer-look-at-u-s-deaths-due-to-covid-19)

(Note - the above link is to an archived version as the original was deleted by JHU, explanations here (https://mobile.twitter.com/JHUNewsLetter/status/1332100155986882562) and here (https://www.jhunewsletter.com/article/2020/11/a-closer-look-at-u-s-deaths-due-to-covid-19).)

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Funt Solo on 01 December, 2020, 02:36:03 PM
The article was removed because it was COVID-denial bullshit dressed up (poorly) as science and published in a student newspaper by some conspiracy twonk. Do you wonder how the writer sleeps at night, as they willingly provoke the death of others by spreading misinformation about the deadliness of a global pandemic?

Not something anyone around here would do, thankfully.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 01 December, 2020, 02:43:10 PM

If it was poor science, all it needed was some good science to balance it out, cast doubt, add to, or disprove it. The figures can be checked by anyone. Well, if they aren't deleted of course.

To simply remove it is politics, not science (in which we are supposed to trust).

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 01 December, 2020, 03:10:30 PM
If you want 'balance', perhaps read the retraction and why it was deleted: https://retractionwatch.com/2020/11/27/johns-hopkins-student-newspaper-deletes-then-retracts-article-on-faculty-members-presentation-about-covid-19-deaths/

The whole 'COVID hasn't made any odds' angle is baffling. Every single country has seen a massive spike in excess deaths this year. Sure, that _could_ in some cases be coincidence, but that it aligns worldwide with a pandemic suggests otherwise, even before you take into account death certificates.

And I'm tired of crackpot papers needing to be disproved by good science when there is a ton of good science out there. This is no different from people arguing the Earth is flat and yelling at people to prove it when we've had photos of our roundish planet for ages.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Funt Solo on 01 December, 2020, 03:14:08 PM
There is good science to balance it out, already extant, which you didn't bother to link to (because you have an agenda, which has nothing to do with truth-seeking).

You're not suggesting that each article written with an agenda requires an equal amount of words in another article in order to refute it, I hope. Because that would be stupid, right? Arguments aren't see-saws.

(Your third link, anyway, does the disproving.)

Mind game: imagine I want to make you believe something. Apparently, all I have to do is dress up in a white coat, carry a clipboard, present some charts and (this is key) appeal directly to your prejudices, and you'll be entirely under my spell.

Quote from: The Legendary Shark on 01 December, 2020, 02:43:10 PM
If it was poor science, all it needed was some good science to balance it out, cast doubt, add to, or disprove it. The figures can be checked by anyone. Well, if they aren't deleted of course.

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Funt Solo on 01 December, 2020, 03:50:52 PM
Covid: US doctor's video simulates what dying patient sees (https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-us-canada-55081711)

Yes, but - aha! Who's to say he isn't part of the global governmental conspiracy set up to reset the economy in order to - YES - control the sheeple! If you think otherwise you are a sheeple person. I have other clever catch-phrases - like plandemic! AHA! Yes. And ... G5! To control us! Gates! Tin foil hats! Illuminatis! Mushrooms! Ahahahaaaaaa...
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 01 December, 2020, 05:07:18 PM

Quote from: IndigoPrime
link=topic=46306.msg1046086#msg1046086
date=1606835430


If you want 'balance', perhaps read the
retraction and why it was deleted: https://
retractionwatch.com/2020/11/27/johns-
hopkins-student-newspaper-deletes-then-
retracts-article-on-faculty-members-
presentation-about-covid-19-deaths/



I posted two other links alongside the link to the article in an attempt to present balance and context.

Quote from: Funt Solo on 01 December, 2020, 03:14:08 PM


Mind game: imagine I want to make you believe something. Apparently, all I have to do is dress up in a white coat, carry a clipboard, present some charts and (this is key) appeal directly to your prejudices, and you'll be entirely under my spell.




That's certainly at least a part of it. (https://www.simplypsychology.org/milgram.html) A very worrying part.


What to make of it all is for you to decide.

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Funt Solo on 01 December, 2020, 05:25:05 PM
All I'm doing is presenting a flame to this petrol that I've poured on the floor - whether it catches light is entirely up to the petrol.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 01 December, 2020, 05:38:31 PM

"All you're doing" is throwing fallacies about like confetti.

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Funt Solo on 01 December, 2020, 05:58:59 PM
Uhm ... I am rubber, you are glue?

---

Q. Why did you post up the first link? Was it to open up a free debate about the nature of truth? Was it to try to expose a deeper conspiracy? You must have had a motive. If you don't reveal it, I'm left with no option but to make assumptions based on the information I do have.

From what you've said before, it would seem that the motive is to tie in to your favored conspiracy theory about a secret global cabal with nefarious intent. Part of that is to suggest that Covid is less harmful than it actually is.

Sometimes you hide behind the false logic that if there are two sides to an argument, then it's fair to suppose that either could be correct. (See also: supernatural beings.) Thus, my response to your "balance and context" approach. It's still not a see-saw. 
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Definitely Not Mister Pops on 01 December, 2020, 06:01:46 PM
Quote from: The Legendary Shark on 01 December, 2020, 05:38:31 PM

"All you're doing" is throwing fallacies about like confetti.

Accusation of using fallacies (in this case maybe false equivalence? possibly just a bad metaphor)

Quote from: The Legendary Shark on 01 December, 2020, 02:43:10 PM

If it was poor science, all it needed was some good science to balance it out, cast doubt, add to, or disprove it.


Request to prove a negative.

Quote from: The Legendary Shark on 01 December, 2020, 02:43:10 PM
.. science (in which we are supposed to trust).


Didn't someone recently warn us that science shouldn't be treated like a religion?

Anyways, I read the article. It seemed fairly sensible until it wasn't. It seemed a very wordy, graphy way of saying that people are dying "with" covid but not "of" it. It just seems a bit mean spirited to suggest medical professionals aren't being diligent enough when recording deaths. They have an unusually large workload at the minute.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Funt Solo on 01 December, 2020, 06:28:05 PM
Quote from: Mister Pops on 01 December, 2020, 06:01:46 PM
...people are dying "with" covid but not "of" it...

I suppose it would be like saying someone didn't die of AIDS because the illness that ultimately killed them was an opportunistic infection. AIDS fucks over the immune system, and you might die of something you had before you contracted HIV. But if someone used that argument to try to disprove the veracity (or ferocity) of AIDS, they'd be talking shite.

Same deal with Covid, effectively. The virus weakens you to the extent that you die of something (like a severe pneumonia, for example). So, in all probability, the scientific consensus is that the death rate (if anything) is being under-reported due to a lack of knowledge. Or (as is the case in Sweden) for political aims.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Definitely Not Mister Pops on 01 December, 2020, 06:32:25 PM
Quote from: Funt Solo on 01 December, 2020, 06:28:05 PM
Quote from: Mister Pops on 01 December, 2020, 06:01:46 PM
...people are dying "with" covid but not "of" it...

I suppose it would be like saying someone didn't die of AIDS because the illness that ultimately killed them was an opportunistic infection. AIDS fucks over the immune system, and you might die of something you had before you contracted HIV. But if someone used that argument to try to disprove the veracity (or ferocity) of AIDS, they'd be talking shite.

Same deal with Covid, effectively. The virus weakens you to the extent that you die of something (like a severe pneumonia, for example). So, in all probability, the scientific consensus is that the death rate (if anything) is being under-reported due to a lack of knowledge. Or (as is the case in Sweden) for political aims.

Pretty much.

I had the bastard in for October. A whole month. Everyday felt like I had shit kicked out of me after smoking a zillion fags. And I'm a super cool and healthy guy and all the chicks and dudes admire my big muscles. If I had any underlying problems I would not have lasted October.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Funt Solo on 01 December, 2020, 06:47:13 PM
Quote from: Mister Pops on 01 December, 2020, 06:32:25 PM
And I'm a super cool and healthy guy and all the chicks and dudes admire my big muscles.

I was going to feel bad for you but now there's tea all over my keyboard.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 01 December, 2020, 07:58:58 PM

I posted the link because I found it interesting, as I find many of the links posted by others.

But yes, I do have a worldview that drives my actions and choices, and I make no bones about it. The Powers That Shouldn't Be, of whatever stripe (there are many), lie. For a multitude of reasons. They demonstrably lie. They constantly lie. Not about everything, to be sure, but about much. (And if this theory is true then it must make a prediction, which is; we will be lied to again.)

Of course, past form does not prove present form - but it's a powerful indicator.

I do not come to this view entirely through books, blogs and Youtube, but experience. Back when I believed, as you do, I took a seat on the local parish council. The word ENTRANCE over the door to the council meeting room might just as well have read ENCHANT, because trying to get anything done was like playing blind man's buff in a hall of mirrors with eggs in your shoes. The lies were many, the challenges ignored or suppressed. And this was over things like allotments and dogshit bins. The final straw for me came when a local MP first raised (unfounded) fears concerning the closure of a piece of vital local infrastructure and then, after sufficient public reaction, took credit for averting the (nonexistent) crisis.

A long, hard road brings me from there to here - but I wouldn't change a minute of it. For through my own actions, for which I accept full responsibility, I have seen the lie again and again, on the lips of councillors, counsellors, constables and magistrates.

But I don't think it's really about some shadowy cabal of cigar-smoking trillionaires deciding the fate of humanity around a solid gold table in a castle on the Moon - I think it's more about a shared ideology. So long as they don't unduly threaten one another's interests or positions (outside the general run-of-the-mill internecine wars), they generally just back one another up. These are the people who believe, for whatever reason, that they deserve to be on top. Maybe they were born closer to God, or spring from a particular lineage, or possess superior attributes, or have the most money, but they are better than the masses.

It feels like some huge blind spot, forcing us to set against one another instead of taking a step back and counting to ten before re-reading something emotive. I've done a lot of learning over the last few years. I've listened to podcasts on all sorts of stuff, and audio books, but mostly academic lectures from "reputable" sources like Yale, Harvard, Oxford and the like - many of them over 20 individual lectures covering all manner of subjects from African history to microbiology to forensics to quantum physics and all points in between. Of course, I listen while I'm working (not being a fan of music) so most of it doesn't go in. I don't make any notes so I hardly remember any of the details and I don't read any of the suggested texts so I don't understand all of it - but it's fun, and it feels worthwhile. Self-improvement and all that. Great for story ideas too.

All this blather, from lectures to podcasts to Babylon 5, also colours my worldview - at least as much as my experiences - but leads me to optimism for the future. I mean, serious optimism. Humanity is like Andy Dufresne, currently crawling through his mile of shit towards a new life.

I guess what I really want to do is be one of those who occasionally points at the pipe to prove the world isn't just shit. The shit is just something we have to go through to get out of this f*cking pipe - the pipe the warden prefers we wander for eternity.

So yes, consider the possibility that all is not as it seems. Even the things that seem to be something else might not be the same as the things we'd expect to see in the mirror.

WTFL;DR - I post links I find interesting, little nuggets that might illuminate or challenge, cause at least a momentary question - a fleeting glimpse of the attitudinal shit pipe and a reminder that we are capable of so much more once we get to Mexico and Red turns up.

AYFKM? STFUA! - I am Sharky. Deal with it.

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: paddykafka on 01 December, 2020, 08:01:03 PM
Pfft! Until Mister Pops posts photos to the contrary, I'm just going to assume that this is him, lol.  :)

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CnLa9RWXYAA_Yfg?format=jpg&name=small

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Definitely Not Mister Pops on 01 December, 2020, 08:04:33 PM
Quote from: paddykafka on 01 December, 2020, 08:01:03 PM
Pfft! Until Mister Pops posts photos to the contrary, I'm just going to assume that this is him, lol.  :)

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CnLa9RWXYAA_Yfg?format=jpg&name=small

ZOUNDS! I HAVE BEEN HACKED!
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Funt Solo on 01 December, 2020, 10:24:39 PM
Shark - in response to your giant post - that's (mostly) all fair enough - just not sure what it has to do with Covid.

The "back when I believed, as you do" is weird because it separates us into two churches - one of belief and one of disbelief - but it doesn't say of what. So, yeah, that feels weird. All I've ever argued is that we should follow the science. I'm not sure how that's a belief system, as opposed to a fact-finding mission. Two different things.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Definitely Not Mister Pops on 01 December, 2020, 11:36:03 PM
Quote from: The Legendary Shark on 01 December, 2020, 07:58:58 PM
I am Sharky. Deal with it.

Feck off, I'm not your parent
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 02 December, 2020, 07:32:13 AM

Back when I believed in government and its processes, I meant.

Science is great, but not when viewed through the lens of politics. Politics reduces science to religion. Politics reduces most things to religion, I think.

Mister Pops, surely you're everybody's daddy? :D

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 02 December, 2020, 08:55:13 AM
Quote from: The Legendary Shark on 02 December, 2020, 07:32:13 AMScience is great, but not when viewed through the lens of politics. Politics reduces science to religion. Politics reduces most things to religion, I think.
I think this is a conversation for your politics thread though, not this one.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 02 December, 2020, 10:09:56 AM

Perhaps so. I do feel that it has no small relevance here, though, as politicians (again) glorify the believers and marginalise the heathens.

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 02 December, 2020, 10:18:00 AM
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 02 December, 2020, 08:55:13 AM
I think this is a conversation for your politics thread though, not this one.

Also, some fairly unequivocal guidance on, shall we say, outlier opinions here. (https://forums.2000ad.com/index.php?topic=46306.msg1024798#msg1024798)
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: JayzusB.Christ on 02 December, 2020, 01:16:18 PM
Quote from: The Legendary Shark on 02 December, 2020, 10:09:56 AM

Perhaps so. I do feel that it has no small relevance here, though, as politicians (again) glorify the believers and marginalise the heathens.

Except for the most powerful one in the world, and hugely powerful members of his party.  Not to mention his mini-me in Brazil and, before things got so bad he couldn't ignore it any more, Boris Johnson.

Anyway - my motorbike is out of action and I'm forced to use public transport.  I find myself in constant fury as people whip off their masks as soon as they get on board, pay no heed whatsoever to the seats that are clearly out of bounds, and laugh as the people they sit beside get up and as far away from them as possible.      The quicker my bike is fixed the better.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Definitely Not Mister Pops on 05 December, 2020, 03:49:47 AM
Quote from: The Legendary Shark on 02 December, 2020, 10:09:56 AM

Perhaps so. I do feel that it has no small relevance here, though, as politicians (again) glorify the believers and marginalise the heathens.

I'm sorry but no. Covid-19 or Novel Corona or whatever the fuck you want to call it exists.  I have had this disease and I have the square root of fuck all to gain from lying about it. Over a month later, I can not claim to be fully recovered, I'm always tired. At random intervals I feel like I've been punched in the ribs. This should not be a culture war. This is not a question of belief. These "heathens" are not being marginalized. If you had the desire for retribution for being infected that I have, you'd agree. People who refuse to wear masks properly are just festering cum-puddles, yet they face no serious government sanctioned consequences for their selfishness.

Reading loads of articles, listening to podcasts and audiobooks is grand, a fine use of your time but it's not research. It's the early stage of research, the literature review, but it is not the actual research. More like the prelude to research. And even before that you need to go down a path of intense specialized education to properly understand the subject matter.

Sometimes I think science communicators, making science more accessable, is counter-productive. You know how people are always saying wikipedia isn't a proper source of information? Well it is for maths and most of physics. Because no one outside the field understands the language and notation well enough to sabotage any articles.

So I suggest an alternative to your statement. This whole covid mess is largely down to the fact that politicians couldn't admit that someone might know better than them*.

*this could also be applied to brexit and climate change
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 05 December, 2020, 06:08:52 AM
Aye.

This discussion reminds me of one of my favourite quotes from a scientist friend:

Quote
Study 3 years for degree.
Study 3 more for PhD.
Join lab, start working.
Spend years studying problem.
Form hypothesis, gather evidence.
Test hypothesis, form conclusions.
Report findings, clear peer review.
Findings published, reported in press.
Guy on internet: "Bullshit."
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Tjm86 on 05 December, 2020, 08:41:50 AM
There is an aspect of Sharkey's observation that I would suggest does have small merit.  This idea that politicians are elevating science in a way that is problematic.  The old "we are following the science / led by the science / guided by the science" mantra appears to be less about measured and reasonable actions and more about trying to find some sort of shield.

What I mean is that science is not always completely certain or correct.  It is an ongoing process rather than a finished product.  Covid has illustrated that more than anything else this year.  As time has gone on more data has become available that has allowed us to make better decisions.  One example is asymptomatic infection.

The danger now is that politicians have simultaneously raised expectations whilst undermining confidence in scientists.  So much is pinned now on the vaccine despite the fact that there is still considerable work to be done.  On the other hand since scientists have been refining their guidance throughout the year as more data becomes available, this has undermined the 'absolute certainty' inference that politicians have employed to support their own flawed decision making.

So now we do have this insane situation in which perfectly reasonable guidance to wear face coverings to try and minimise transmission comes up against the intransigence of certain individuals.  Twitter and Facebook are laughably seen as more trustworthy and reliable than the BMJ.  The 'guy on the internet' is seen as more knowledgeable and reputable than someone who has spent decades studying the problem in minute detail.

At its core though I would politely suggest that the "believers" to whom Sharkey refers are these types who will seize on whatever dubious remark made online takes their fancy and the "heathens" are those who turn around and say, "well, based on science there is a greater probability that ..." and try to approach it rationally.  ... and yes the likes of Trump, Johnson and Bolsanaro need to be held accountable for this.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 05 December, 2020, 09:53:21 AM
Re-reading Robert Jungk's superb Brighter than a Thousand Suns at the moment* , the seminal account of the Manhattan Project (and its 30-year background) by an Austrian Jewish*** physicist in those years who interviewed basically everyone involved over the subsequent decade (it has its shortcomings and biases, but as a near-contemporary synthesis it's hard to beat). 

The relevance here is the extent to which most of those brilliant physicists and chemists did not trust their own or any other governments one single inch, from the early '30s when the neutron cascade became a real possibility, right on to the end of the war and beyond.

It's a story of continual fear about how states might use their work, both in the democracies and totalitarian states, with brave and principled resistance at every stage. Even in the (completely misguided) belief in 1942-3 that the Nazis would have their own Hydrogen Bomb within the year, the motivation of those few Manhattan participants that were actually aware of what they were working on was to create a MAD-style counter that would remove the choice to use such a weapon from everyone's hands.

Even as the first successful test was still a top-level secret, project physicists, engineers and technicians were holding illegal polls and signing petitions begging their governments not to use the bomb they had worked so hard to build. The overwhelming consensus was that a demonstration should be as far as it went, either on US soil with invited Japanese observers, or in Japan itself, followed by an opportunity to surrender.

So my point is to draw a clear line between scientists, science and governments, even in times of darkest crisis. Scientists are indeed flawed, greedy, arrogant, fallible people, just like all the rest of us. Science as a collection of epistemologies and resulting ontologies works hard to counteract those human weaknesses through constant review, repetition and refinement, and it will eventually win out, but in the moment it is still embedded in our imperfect societies, and in the practical limitations of time and space.

Most critically, politicians will ignore, elevate, distort and deploy 'the science' without reference to scientists' expertise or concerns, just as it suits them. In theory reality will eventually expose their manipulations as such, but again, in time.

So getting to the truth of 'the science' and its practical applications can never be easy, especially as a layperson who can grasp only the executive summary, at best. But even as a layperson, it simply has to be the best statistical bet to try to filter out government (and opposition) spin and listen as directly as possible to the majority of scientists than to random voices and their choruses on the internet who largely exist outside of any system of check or accountability.

And failing that, Pascal's wager applies to almost all our current dilemmas. What do you have to lose if you're wrong, versus what do you have to gain if you're right.


*If you never have, do - histories don't get more gripping**
**Feynman's firsthand account is a lot more fun, but being Feynman, it's all about Feynman. Which is a major positive, but a minor negative.
*** I mention this because the charity he extends to colleagues who could reasonably (if not necessarily accurately) be accused of collaborating with the Nazis is quite extraordinary in this llght. Heisenberg, for example, is afforded long footnotes in his own words to explain what he paints as momentary failures and necessary compromises in a career of "passive resistance" as head of the Nazi's Uranium Group.

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Tjm86 on 05 December, 2020, 10:00:59 AM
That's pretty much where I come down, Tordels.  Given a choice between a scientist and a politician I'll go with the scientist any day of the week and twice on Sunday.  The charlatans in 'power' at the moment?  Aye, right!

My real concern at the moment though is that the way science is being presented undermines its efficacy in the public eye.  That's a dangerous road.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: JayzusB.Christ on 05 December, 2020, 01:36:02 PM
I'm saddemed that this thread, started, I presume, to give people an opportunity to express their anxiety, advice and so on during this weird and difficult time, has become an argument as to whether the coronavirus is a hoax or not.

Offering the non-mainstream viewpoint on this issue is not providing balance to anything. There is no balance - the idea that the virus doesn't exist or isn't dangerous is what's spouted by populist demagogues and rabbit hole-dwelling conspiracy theorists*, while the idea that it does and it is is the one that people who study viruses have, give or take a fraction of a percentage point, unanimously arrived at.

And, if that isn't enough, there is that Pascal's Wager that TB mentions (never knew it had a name, thanks for that).  -  if, even in the face of overwhelming evidence, the people who know most about this issue are wrong, we've needlessly had a miserable year and may have lost jobs. If the autocrats and Internet voices are wrong, thousands of people die.

*who may not like the term,  but if they subscribe to an unproven theory about a huge conspiracy, what other name applies?

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 05 December, 2020, 02:11:39 PM
Aye. When Johnson said "I shook everyone's hands" and then Whitty said "wash your hands and don't shake hands"  I damn well stopped shaking hands and exponentially increased my hand washing. Know what I mean?
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Tjm86 on 05 December, 2020, 04:19:06 PM
Quote from: JayzusB.Christ on 05 December, 2020, 01:36:02 PM
I'm saddemed that this thread, started, I presume, to give people an opportunity to express their anxiety, advice and so on during this weird and difficult time, has become an argument as to whether the coronavirus is a hoax or not.

Fair point.  Then again I wonder if latching on to conspiracy theories is a way of managing anxiety?

When you think about it, things are completely and utterly out of control at the moment.  In a "well, we are totally screwed" kind of way.  There is little scope for exercising personal control, especially since so much of our personal life is highly regulated now, up to and including who we can spend time with.

So any tiny opportunity to exercise some sort of personal control is likely to be seized on.  If that is just what you can believe then so be it?  It gives a tiny sliver of control over circumstances.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: JayzusB.Christ on 05 December, 2020, 04:44:59 PM
The problem there is that a million and a half people have died of this virus, and some of them would still be alive if they, or more ominously the people around them, had accepted the facts and exercised the appropriate caution.

Not that I'm going to argue with anyone about how dangerous the virus is. This, for me, would be like arguing with somebody who has read an essay on a website that says the moon is a paper cutout, with a few figures to back it up, and decided to go along with that viewpoint while ignoring all the data that says it's a lump of rock. I might not have all the facts and figures to hand that says they're very, very, very probably wrong, but if that's their starting point it won't massage any difference anyway.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: JayzusB.Christ on 05 December, 2020, 05:07:04 PM
*make, not massage. Bleeding autocorrect
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: M.I.K. on 05 December, 2020, 05:38:12 PM
My aforementioned cousin has apparently had people he knows say to his face that it's all a hoax and nothing to worry about. My cousin who almost died, was bedridden for a fortnight and has been left short of breath with an enlarged heart. When he has pointed this out to them they've gone "Yeah, I know you've had it bad but they're definitely exaggerating how bad it is. It's just a hoax".
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Tjm86 on 05 December, 2020, 06:06:13 PM
Hey, I'm not saying it is sensible or rational.  All I'm saying is that it is scary as f*** and denial is quite often a coping mechanism.  Think of people who stay in abusive relationships and rationalise their abuser's behaviour, kids who are stuck in insanely traumatic situations and think it is normal ...

Personally I'm with you.  I don't know anyone who has had this.  I don't know anyone who has died from it.  Enough people tell me that they have had it and they've lost friends / family / loved ones because of it.  That is enough for me.

So ... face mask, social distancing, washing aplenty .... Everything and anything to keep others safe.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: JayzusB.Christ on 05 December, 2020, 07:59:59 PM
Quote from: Tjm86 on 05 December, 2020, 06:06:13 PM
Hey, I'm not saying it is sensible or rational. 

Ah yeah, I knew that. Wasn't directing my comments about denialism at you or anything.

Personally I know quite a few people who have had it, including, worryingly enough, my elderly parents' next door neighbour, who didn't do a great job of either informing them or avoiding them. Thankfully it seems that particular danger has passed.

A friend (and ex student) of mine is a doctor in Madrid - she and her Irish husband were the first people I knew who contracted it. They felt like shit but fortunately were young and healthy (and of course lucky). enough to get through it.

Two people I know personally have lost family members to it, and another almost lost her husband (only in his fifties).

These people, I feel, have had enough to deal with without other people telling them their experiences didn't exist. (Again, not aimed at you, tjm.)
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 05 December, 2020, 08:13:06 PM
One of my kid's friends had it. We found out her family was positive a day after they'd spent four hours playing with two other bubble friends in rule of six. No-one outside the infected kid's family got sick. Bullet dodged. Lesson learned.

Now we hear two kids in mini-IP's year are confirmed COVID. Their entire class is now isolating, but their siblings are still *legally required* to go to school unless showing symptoms (by which point they've been infected for days). It's all a fucking mess.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: JayzusB.Christ on 05 December, 2020, 09:42:27 PM
Ah man, that's brutal. A mess, as you say. Hope things work out OK
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Tjm86 on 06 December, 2020, 09:31:46 AM
Quote from: JayzusB.Christ on 05 December, 2020, 07:59:59 PM

These people, I feel, have had enough to deal with without other people telling them their experiences didn't exist. (Again, not aimed at you, tjm.)

Didn't take it that way.  Just feel that it is important to be clear.

I think more than anything the last decade has really shown up the fault lines in our society.  There's a sense in which everything is hunky dory and we can just carry on blithely.  Then you just scratch the surface and see the mess beneath.

All this crap about face masks, civil liberties, vaccines and scams just highlights how badly we are being failed by our 'leaders'.  At the risk of spilling worms everywhere, there is almost enough to support Sharkey's political viewpoints (please note the 'almost)!

This situation offered the perfect opportunity for Johnson et al to bring the nation together.  He could have gone a ways to healing the rifts of the referendum.  It could have been a chance to reset our attitudes to some of the fear-mongers like Farage.  Did that happen?  Did it f***!

So now we have to deal with muppets like that.   :( :o :o
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 06 December, 2020, 11:35:26 AM
And most of that comes down to our electoral system forcing us vs them. When you only need around a third of the vote to rule in an absolute manner, you're never aiming to bring people together, but instead to shore up your base. It's notable that countries that have done a lit better than us mostly fall into two camps: those that are effectively dictatorships (and so can do whatever the hell they like, without popular support) or those that utilise a proportional system (thereby forcing everyone to work together for the common good—at least to some degree).

Elsewhere, the idiocy of the rules became starkly clear for me this week. Mini-IP is in Y2. One of the Y2 classes in her school had the two-cases trigger and the entire class is now on 14-day isolation. Siblings are split. Because government guidance states that entire households only have to isolate if someone's showing symptoms, said siblings legally have to go to school. One is in mini-IP's class. So there's now a direct vector into my family, because the government guidance is nonsensical. Surely, _households_ should isolate, not just individuals—doubly so with children. But then that would impact the economy! So: more spread/less containment. I'm just so fucking hollow right now from everything.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Tjm86 on 06 December, 2020, 11:52:53 AM
The 'covid-secure' measures in schools are an absolute joke, more so in secondary than primary.  The idea of bubbles at least works better when the kids are in year groups all day with the same teacher.  In comp the kids stay in one place and the teachers move around except in year 10 and 11 where they have options.

Even so, staggered starts actually mean kids hanging around outside the school gates for different lengths of time and mixing freely.  So those efforts aren't even a joke.  They're beyond laughable.

Then there is this malarkey about how much of a transmission vector school kids are.  "Not likely to get it?"  All of a sudden talk is of comps being one of the main vectors.  Let's just agree that the evidence is not robust enough to state with any degree of certainty.

Not that it matters too much.  It isn't Covid that is going to bring down teachers, it's burnout.

Right now I'm about an inch away from going out and finding someone with this f***ing disease and hoping I'm one of the 1%.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: JayzusB.Christ on 06 December, 2020, 01:19:54 PM
I'm in Dublin city centre. Apart from the queues outside shops, you'd think it was a normal December. My god, we are going to pay for this in January.

I also see that the front page of the Irish Mail says that our president will take the vaccine. It's a strange day when it's newsworthy that an elderly man is planning to use the healthcare system to protect himself from getting ill. I know, I know, we haven't seen the longterm effects of the new vaccine, but if the arguments against it are of similar quality to existing anti-vax arguments, I'll be first in line for my jabs (after the essential workers and the vulnerable of course).
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 06 December, 2020, 01:40:26 PM
Quote from: Tjm86 on 06 December, 2020, 11:52:53 AMIn comp the kids stay in one place and the teachers move around except in year 10 and 11 where they have options.
They never did when I was at school. Right from the first year (now Y7), you'd move to the specialist classroom for any given subject (maths; science; arts; music; CDT; home ec; etc). Has that all gone?

But, yeah, the 'bubble' at secondary is even more ridiculous. It's the entire school and all overlaps.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Funt Solo on 08 December, 2020, 03:51:45 AM
Just got invited to a whole bunch of family gatherings over Chrimbo - which is nice on the one hand, and head-shaking on the other. Washington State is currently on a no-indoor socializing and only five outdoor (but it's a limit not a target). We're having a post-Thanksgiving surge in the US just now as well. So, planning to repeat that, but even worse, for Christmas, is odd.

I'm looking forward to everyone getting vaccinated.*


* So we can move forward to our ultimate aim of a cashless society controlled by our lizardine masters from Sirius. "Yes, Miss Moneypenny" was just a code phrase! All (sheep) for one master, and one master for all (sheep). The Gates have been opened. The reset begins!
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Tjm86 on 08 December, 2020, 10:01:43 AM
On this side of the pond a couple of London based super-spreaders are doing a whistle stop tour of the UK, a-la-Trump.

Somehow someone somewhere actually thought that was a good idea?

:o
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: sheridan on 08 December, 2020, 10:39:16 AM
Quote from: Tjm86 on 08 December, 2020, 10:01:43 AM
On this side of the pond a couple of London based super-spreaders are doing a whistle stop tour of the UK, a-la-Trump.
:o


Which London based super-spreaders are they then?  Is this an abstruse reference to something in the news?
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Tjm86 on 08 December, 2020, 11:21:58 AM
Yep.

Sturgeon weren't too impressed yesterday, today is Gething's turn.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: sheridan on 08 December, 2020, 12:12:33 PM
Quote from: Tjm86 on 08 December, 2020, 11:21:58 AM
Yep.

Sturgeon weren't too impressed yesterday, today is Gething's turn.

So a Scottish and a Welsh MP are criticising someone from London?  Boris Johnson?  Cummings?
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Tjm86 on 08 December, 2020, 01:17:46 PM
Cambridge
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 08 December, 2020, 06:22:31 PM
Quote from: sheridan on 08 December, 2020, 12:12:33 PM
Quote from: Tjm86 on 08 December, 2020, 11:21:58 AM
Yep.

Sturgeon weren't too impressed yesterday, today is Gething's turn.

So a Scottish and a Welsh MP are criticising someone from London?  Boris Johnson?  Cummings?

Presumably you mean those Royals?
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Funt Solo on 08 December, 2020, 06:37:35 PM
Sorry to ruin this enthralling guessing game:

Covid: Royal visit during pandemic questioned by minister (https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-wales-55229410)


Let's play "Which Privileged Person Has Adopted The As I Say Not As I Do Approach This Week?"  Well, if it's good enough for Cummings...


See also: Patel gets rewarded and backed by the Prime Minsiter for bullying her colleagues.
See also: Jeremy Clarkson gets rewarded and backed by Amazon for punching an underling.
See also: Trump gets rewarded by lots of people for locking children in cages and stealing them from their mothers, who he then deports.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: JayzusB.Christ on 08 December, 2020, 09:59:37 PM
I've been back teaching in a classroom this week - all very well distanced, masks, perspex screens, sanitiser everywhere, and very few students. It's hard to describe how mind - blowing it all is - most never turned on their video for the online classes, and people who have been a name on a black square on Zoom for months now exist in 3d.  (One woman I've been teaching for 6 months, it turns out, looks like a 6 foot tall supermodel - but then again she's my student so forget I said that.)

It won't last of course, I expect January will be Zoom city for everyone.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Funt Solo on 09 December, 2020, 10:23:28 PM
Being invited to some relatively large-scale seasonal gatherings and having to turn them down, my mind turned to the mathematics of communication.

Like, when there are two people, there is one line of communication, and when there are three, it's three lines. But when there are four, it's six lines. And you could map this onto potential Covid transmission vectors during a gathering of n people.

And there's a formula - and it's n * (n-1) / 2

So, our current state limit for groups is five people from outside your household at one outdoor meeting, which gives you 10 vectors of transmission.

But the limit for a wedding or a funeral (indoors, even) is thirty people, which gives you 435 vectors of transmission.

And, because we all fear God, the limit for a religious gathering is two hundred (or twa hunner if you're terribly Scottish indeed), which gives you an astounding 19,900 potential vectors of transmission. God wins!
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: M.I.K. on 09 December, 2020, 10:34:14 PM
Quote from: Funt Solo on 09 December, 2020, 10:23:28 PM
And, because we all fear God, the limit for a religious gathering is two hundred (or twa hunner if you're terribly Scottish indeed)

Or "twae hunder", allowing for slight regional variations in dialect.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Definitely Not Mister Pops on 09 December, 2020, 11:11:06 PM
Quote from: Funt Solo on 09 December, 2020, 10:23:28 PM

And there's a formula - and it's n * (n-1) / 2


'sright, it's from graph theory. You have n people (nodes) who can infect everyone but themselves. So that's n(n-1) possible vectors (arcs). Since person A infecting person B is the same arc as B infecting A, it halves the total number of arcs, hence (n(n-1))/2.

Or in Ulster Scots*:

A rake a fowks geein a diffren' ween of fowks the lurgee.

*It was recently discovered that approximately half of all scots language articles on wikipedia had been translated by a teenage brony from the states who had never been to Scotland and was just rewriting articles phonetically in a scottish accent, seasoned with the odd word translated from an online dictionary.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: JayzusB.Christ on 10 December, 2020, 12:44:14 AM
I was trawling through a lot of Irvine West's stuff recently and it suddenly occurred to me to ask one of you Scots boarders whether Johnny Lee Miller's Edinburgh accent was convincing (given that Irish accents are almost never quite convincing when they're tried by non Irish actors).  But then I ended up chatting to my Scottish rockabilly neighbour and he says it was pretty good.  But I'll ask you anyway.  Was he convincing as an Edinburgh schemie, albeit one that fancies himself as a bit of a high flyer?
Sorry, very much off topic, but you heid-the-baws brought it up.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Funt Solo on 10 December, 2020, 01:14:04 AM
Ho! Fanny-baws! Whit are daen takkin aboot accents when its ra climate we're oan aboot?

---

I was entirely convinced by everything in Trainspotting except for The Filthiest Toilet in Scotland. That was actually owned instead by a friend of mine and, once he'd cleaned it, it caused continual heart attacks for surprised visitors in the weeks and months following.

But I've never spent all that much time in Edinburgh, so I'm not sure.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Definitely Not Mister Pops on 10 December, 2020, 01:18:47 AM
Quote from: JayzusB.Christ on 10 December, 2020, 12:44:14 AM
...given that Irish accents are almost never quite convincing when they're tried by non Irish actors...

I have yet to hear any non-native deliver a Northern Irish accent. Not even you Southers can really manage it. Although Liam Neeson sounds more Northern Irish whenever he tries not to.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 10 December, 2020, 02:58:38 AM
Here's a thought. The daily deaths in the US from COVID-19 yesterday were 3000. The US population is about 5 times that of UK.

So the number of deaths in the US would be the equivalent of 600 people dying in a day in the U.K. recently.

Which they have.

(https://i.imgur.com/omSVzvI.jpg)
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 10 December, 2020, 08:26:26 AM
The whole enormous range of NI accents are impossible to 'do' because there's no such thing.  Nordies just put on whatever accent suits them in the moment to befuddle outsiders (defined as people from the far end of the same street). No-one could really talk like that all the time, courtship would sound like a punishment beating*.

I've seen a number of threads about the staggering UK Covid death rates that go something like "So?  That many people die of cancer,  what about them? ". So Covid can simultaneously be unimportant/a hoax/the flu, and as lethal as the collective daily impact of cancer. A suite of 100 diseases that shape regulations and taxes across society, the second largest cause of death globally, despite not being contagious. That's quite a perspective.



*I kid because I love. There are few families of accents more enchanting. Try living in Tallaght, it's like your ears are being attacked with a Lidl own-brand Multitool. Sometimes literally.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: JOE SOAP on 10 December, 2020, 06:27:33 PM
Quote from: Mister Pops on 09 December, 2020, 11:11:06 PM
Or in Ulster Scots*:

A rake a fowks geein a diffren' ween of fowks the lurgee.

Can't stand the host but this was funny.

https://twitter.com/vinnybelfast/status/1047486551415033856
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Funt Solo on 10 December, 2020, 07:16:26 PM
I only just discovered the other day that when Americans (that's USA-peeps, I mean) describe themselves as Scots-Irish, it's not just that they're confused or can't tell the difference, or have a mammy from Glasgow and a Pappy from Port Rush, but it refers instead to their being descended from Ulster Protestants (whose ancestors had come over from that there lower bit of Scotland or upper bit of England a while before that).

---

That Covid though, eh? Is it all in the mind? *


*Joking!
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Dandontdare on 10 December, 2020, 07:43:06 PM
The thing I love about taking calls from NI customers, is that before telling you what they are calling about, they insist on telling you that they are about to tell you what they are calling about - "How can I help you?" "Well, I'll tell you what it is.....".

Even better if they're from County Down, just so I can hear them pronounce those words when I check the address.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: JayzusB.Christ on 17 December, 2020, 10:52:56 AM
Good man, Gandalf!  https://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-55345131 (https://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-55345131)
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: sheridan on 19 December, 2020, 05:51:21 PM
Wednesday.
Boris Johnson: "not by imposing endless lockdowns or cancelling Christmas" (mocking Keir Starmer for suggesting a christmas lockdown).

Today.
Boris Johnson: creates a new Tier 4 for London and the South-East, doing exactly what Starmer was calling for.  But a few days late and after people had finalised christmas plans...
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 19 December, 2020, 06:57:47 PM
Same exact thing happened here with Lockdown 2. Varadkar mocked the CMO on a fucking chat show for calling for stricter restrictions, and then two weeks later imposed the exact same restrictions, but by then they were needed for twice as long. Pricks the lot of them.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Barrington Boots on 19 December, 2020, 07:13:15 PM
My brother is a librarian. He's now in tier 4, but libraries are staying open. So he has to go to work, but he and his children cant go to my Mum and Dads, who have been isolating in preparation for his visit.
I mean... tier 4 but you can still go to the library. WTF.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Professor Bear on 19 December, 2020, 07:37:08 PM
When there are no consequences for lying or incompetence, why would you bother being competent, or honest, or even consistent?
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Tjm86 on 19 December, 2020, 08:08:53 PM
Welsh Assembly has libraries down for "click and collect" only, same as non-essential retail.  Similar in England?  TBH I can see the logic there.  For some folks library services are a life-line.

My father had a pace-maker fitted back in the summer (well, he is nearly 80!).  Mam wanted to meet up at the start of December to exchange presents.  We knocked that on the head with the climbing infections in these parts.  In the last few weeks of term literally every student in school has had to isolate because of cases within each year group.  My daughter was sent home the last day for the same reason.  She ends isolation today.  No way am I chancing getting anywhere near my father under these circumstances.

What is even more infuriating is when you suddenly realise that PHE flagged this mutation five days ago and Hancock even mentioned it in the HOC.  BBC reported on it but hardly anyone paid attention because of where it  was buried.  It's also worth noting that it would have taken PHE time to pick up on the trend from the data so this would have been going on for weeks now.  Just think of all of those lovely pictures of p***-heads in London. 

I've spent a bit of time reading Hansard and some of the crap Johnson has been spouting as well as how Starmer has been discussing measures.  I would say 'ironically' today's news is no surprise but it is just one more thing to p*** everyone off with.  He was calling Johnson out for dithering again and for more robust measures.  How many lives will now be lost because of that?
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 19 December, 2020, 08:17:26 PM
Again, here's the law in England:

- Minimum two confirmed cases within a class for that class to go into isolation
- If class goes into isolation, siblings in other classes or schools MUST attend school

And the government wonders why this is spreading so fast in schools.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Barrington Boots on 19 December, 2020, 09:03:41 PM
UK libraries are open fully from what I'm told. It's to allow essentila internet access for those who dont have it. In reality, certainly where my brother is based, he's forever evicting people for using the PCs for watching porn or beheading videos.

Libraries aside, this entire clusterfuck is because our shambles of a government at very step has lacked the political will to address issues. Instead its half measures introduced too late at every stage, and the gradual erosion of trust due to their incompetence and cronyism where the rules dont apply to them and their mates, has led to weak measures being shrugged off by an increasingly disillusioned public. I feel guilty getting het up when I'm in a position some people are not where I still have my job and my health, but I'm so, so tired of this.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Funt Solo on 19 December, 2020, 09:39:57 PM
It is sad: an over-privileged (bullying, nationalist), buffoon is elected, and then you get buffoonery as policy.

My folks are going to visit close relations during the festive period because the government has said it's okay. They've followed all advice so far to the letter - so they're going to follow that as well, despite it being shite advice.

Christmas is like some kind of weird spell that's been cast on people. I imagine if a river of lava sat between those people and their tradition on the far bank, they'd wade right on in on the basis that tradition trumps any other consideration - including being burnt alive in a river of lava through your own volition.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Tjm86 on 19 December, 2020, 10:07:32 PM
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 19 December, 2020, 08:17:26 PM
And the government wonders why this is spreading so fast in schools.

Leaving aside the fact that in comps it is impossible to socially distance in any meaningful sense in school and that no one is enforcing it the moment kids pass the school gates, trying to keep classes ventilated is a nightmare as you're fighting school management who don't want kids wearing coats in class on one hand and kids who are freezing on the other.

Mind you, the government is adamant that schools are not significant transmission vectors for this.  The same government that didn't believe in asymptomatic transmission not that long back.  Go figure!
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Barrington Boots on 19 December, 2020, 11:31:49 PM
The attitude the government are taking towards schools is ludicrous.

I agree that Christmas is seen by many as a sort of holy grail.that they'd happily risk life and limb (be it their own or everyone else's) so they could have it and it's insane. What seems so unjust on this count is the last minute sheer incompetence of it. The Eton Mess has had dozens of chances to handle this better and instead days ago he was saying the opposite. I do think we needed tighter controls over this period but it should have been discussed weeks ago.

It's all been said before, I'm just annoyed to see people whose made sacrifices all year have one more thing taken away from them. These sacrifices are worthwhile if it keeps them and others alive, but our government are wasting what opportunities they're buying to sort this out.

Anyway, I'm just venting, apologies.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: sheridan on 20 December, 2020, 12:41:50 AM
...and don't forget that if you go to church, synagogue, mosque or temple then you can continue to do that.

Because $deity protects or something?
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Funt Solo on 20 December, 2020, 01:55:13 AM
(https://images.theconversation.com/files/341560/original/file-20200612-153822-1e2lj95.jpg)

(https://i.imgur.com/2yRWJps.png)
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 20 December, 2020, 10:17:00 AM
We're tier 2, bordered by tier 4 on north and east of our district council. A friend at the north-east tip reports his daughter has been ill—as have at least four of her class of 30. But, yes, keeping the schools open with the threat of legal action was a good move. Well done, Tories (who I note today are already blaming everyone else but themselves).
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 20 December, 2020, 10:30:45 AM
"New More-Infectious Strain" is the greatest get-out-of-jail-free card Our Leaders have ever been handed. Expect to hear nothing-but from now on.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 20 December, 2020, 11:20:30 AM
It'll buy them a small amount of time, but the second kids return to school, that's all over.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Professor Bear on 20 December, 2020, 01:03:17 PM
Quote from: TordelBack on 20 December, 2020, 10:30:45 AM
"New More-Infectious Strain" is the greatest get-out-of-jail-free card Our Leaders have ever been handed. Expect to hear nothing-but from now on.

A post-truth world of neverending chaos serves the ruling class too well to be allowed to stop, and epidemics and climate collapse, far from being something they're afraid of, are things they need to happen if they're to cling to power - they've known all along that their own incompetence would create the perfect conditions for them to thrive, so realistically, things are only going to get worse because that's what serves them best.

I say this because I finally gave Shock Doctrine a read, and what strikes me is how much faith Naomi Klein had in governments that she actually never saw the last few years coming - in which we've had one high-profile disaster after another that resulted in the funneling of public money into private hands - despite literally writing a book about it in which she says this is definitely what is coming, and yet somehow her predictions were that social changes would pull us back from the brink.
It's an interesting snapshot of the failings of liberal thinking even on (what is considered) the far left.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 20 December, 2020, 02:46:02 PM

Careful - you're starting to sound like me... :-D

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: sheridan on 20 December, 2020, 03:10:12 PM
Quote from: The Legendary Shark on 20 December, 2020, 02:46:02 PM

Careful - you're starting to sound like me... :-D

Got to admit, I was wondering when Shark was going to make an appearance after reading that first paragraph :-)
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 20 December, 2020, 03:37:46 PM
A grim Covid milestone to note: yesterday's cumulative Public Health England 28-day fatality total (not the more contentious 60-day figure) of 67.1K deaths equals the UK's entire number of civilian casualties in World War 2.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Funt Solo on 20 December, 2020, 04:02:52 PM
Quote from: Professor Bear on 20 December, 2020, 01:03:17 PM
A post-truth world of neverending chaos serves the ruling class too well to be allowed to stop, and epidemics and climate collapse, far from being something they're afraid of, are things they need to happen if they're to cling to power - they've known all along that their own incompetence would create the perfect conditions for them to thrive, so realistically, things are only going to get worse because that's what serves them best.

Although there's an obvious difference between opportunistic carpetbagging and the idea of a "plandemic". The "they've known all along" bit is pure supposition and lends your enemy an almost mystical power. If they're so darned smart, does it make sense to sail the ship so close to economic collapse? Or right over the edge of a climate disaster of E.L.E. proportions? Wouldn't it make more sense, if we're imagining sitting at the round table handling those levers of power, to create a docile underclass, rather than a febrile, chaotic one?

Or were you being ironic?
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: JayzusB.Christ on 20 December, 2020, 04:40:51 PM
Quote from: Funt Solo on 20 December, 2020, 04:02:52 PM

Or were you being ironic?

Have to admit, I've been finding it increasingly hard lately to know whether the Prof is taking the piss or not, particularly in the 'serious' threads like this one.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 20 December, 2020, 05:59:04 PM

I don't think it's a case of deliberately releasing a virus (or flying 'planes into buildings or poisoning the planet, etc.) as part of some over-arching master plan but, rather, taking these things and exploiting them to increase power and profit.

As Winston Churchill (I think) said, "never let a good crisis go to waste."

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Funt Solo on 20 December, 2020, 06:12:01 PM
Quote from: The Legendary Shark on 20 December, 2020, 05:59:04 PM
...exploiting them to increase power and profit.

Well, yes, indeed:

Go-between paid £21m in taxpayer funds for NHS PPE (https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-54974373)
Revealed: Private firm running UK PPE stockpile was sold in middle of pandemic (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/22/revealed-private-firm-running-uk-ppe-stockpile-was-sold-in-middle-of-pandemic)
UK's record spending on PPE comes under growing scrutiny (https://www.ft.com/content/27dfb02e-7442-4c9d-9cd5-538b88758764)
Covid-19: UK government faces legal action after awarding £250m in PPE contracts to jewellery company (https://www.bmj.com/content/371/bmj.m4489)
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: JayzusB.Christ on 20 December, 2020, 06:20:57 PM
Well, there'll definitely be profit to be made by the vaccine companies and producers of anti-viral gear, in the same way warm clothing companies make more money in the winter.

But I would question whether crippling the tourism and hospitality industries (among many others), bankrupting many small businesses and some large ones, making enormous social welfare payouts to the hordes of newly unemployed people, and pissing off both the pro- and anti-lockdown sides simultaneously are good ways to increase power and profit.

That's all I'm saying about it though.  Sorry if that's a cop-out but I really hate arguing about conspiracy theories, both online and in real life. 
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Professor Bear on 20 December, 2020, 08:43:52 PM
Well, they've made 11 billion pounds so far for themselves and their donors, just from being shite at their response to the pandemic.  The next election is four years away, so what consequences are they going to suffer for continuing to be shite?
Actually, that pretty much sums up Naomi Klein's book.  You needn't bother reading it now.

Quote from: Funt Solo on 20 December, 2020, 04:02:52 PM
Quote from: Professor Bear on 20 December, 2020, 01:03:17 PMthey've known all along that their own incompetence would create the perfect conditions for them to thrive

Although there's an obvious difference between opportunistic carpetbagging and the idea of a "plandemic". The "they've known all along" bit is pure supposition and lends your enemy an almost mystical power.

You have, of course, sidelined some context from my post, which specifically discusses disaster capitalism and post-truth, not conspiracy theories.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 21 December, 2020, 04:18:50 PM
Here's our very own forum superstar healthcare professional Eamonn Clarke getting the vaccine!

Nice one Eamonn!!

(https://i.imgur.com/hRLjtoM.jpg)
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 21 December, 2020, 04:21:00 PM
I'm just surprised he didn't take the dose away and raffle it for charity.

Also: woot!
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: JayzusB.Christ on 21 December, 2020, 07:06:03 PM
Fair play, Eamonn!  Must feel like a huge weight off the shoulders, apart from the split second of intense pain.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Dandontdare on 21 December, 2020, 07:19:51 PM
Good grief, have the NHS requisitioned allotments now? Or is that one of our World BeatingTM hospitals?

Well done Eamonn, and thank you for all the useful and sensible advice and updates you've given us over the year.

As for me, despite railing against the rule-breakers, my own Christmas will be unavoidably in breach technically. We're still fine with our 3 household Christmas lunch at my brother's, but the lack of public transport means I will have to stay over at my mum's for a few nights. As I'll be seeing her anyway and we'll be seeing no-one else, I can't see any increased danger, and I'll be damned if I miss seeing my mum for only the 2nd time in 10 months. My dad had a mini-stroke and fall in November and won't be coming home, he's currently on the Covid ward of the local hospital (positive test, 8 days no symptoms) awaiting a place in a nursing home. Mercifully, the fall seems to have accelerated his gradually worsening dementia right past the confused/distressed/lashing-out stage, to childlike placidity. No clue what's going on, but content and being well looked after. These last few months have really taken a toll on my mum's health (they're both 89), so I'm not missing this chance over one of Boris's fag-packet technicalities. Oh, and I'll get to meet my 5 month old grand-niece for the first time too!
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 21 December, 2020, 08:03:10 PM
Some shitty situation to navigate, DDD. Hope you have a brilliant time nonetheless.

Some light relief amongst the horror:

My son's favourite teacher is English, and of course won't now being going home for Christmas, about which he is understandably and vocally aggravated. Nevertheless, he decided to follow with ancient tradition and treat his class of 14yr-olds with a Christmas movie.


Die Hard.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 21 December, 2020, 08:10:46 PM
And just for reference, in addition to some top-class gore, cocaine and a couple of boobies, Imdb reports that's: "56 uses of "fuck" (along with 2 uses of "Yippee-ki-yay motherfucker"), 34 uses of "shit" (3 paired with "bull"), 2 uses of "sh*thead", 14 uses of "asshole", 14 uses of "ass", 13 uses of "Goddamn", 3 uses of "dickhead", 1 use of "bastard", 3 uses of "Christ", 2 uses of "jerk off".

Oh,  and presumably 1 additional "fuck it" from the teacher in question...
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: JOE SOAP on 21 December, 2020, 08:38:12 PM
A class act
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Funt Solo on 21 December, 2020, 08:45:55 PM
Maybe they were watching the melon-farmer version.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 21 December, 2020, 08:52:26 PM
Definitely not.  :lol:
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Old Tankie on 21 December, 2020, 09:24:51 PM
Me and the wife both have Covid, feeling rough but still at home and hoping for the best.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Funt Solo on 21 December, 2020, 09:29:27 PM
Ah - so there's a sense in which (rather than being blundering), the seemingly half-witted response demonstrated by Boris Ltd. might be a deliberate agenda-driven policy that has as its end goal financial gain? (Or, power-gain, which is sort of the same thing.)

I have wondered how they can keep making the same mistake over and over again (of getting the timing of lock-downs almost exactly wrong) without learning from it. It would make more sense if it were deliberate. I'm not sure, though. Couldn't it also just be a lack of nous?

I have wondered if Sweden have been, well, allowing the vulnerable to die (https://www.france24.com/en/20200916-they-sacrificed-the-elderly-how-covid-19-spread-in-sweden-s-care-homes). It's certainly been the result of their early policy decisions. And I know that aging populations cost governments money, so it's not as if there's no motive.

Quote from: Professor Bear on 20 December, 2020, 08:43:52 PM
Well, they've made 11 billion pounds so far for themselves and their donors, just from being shite at their response to the pandemic.  The next election is four years away, so what consequences are they going to suffer for continuing to be shite?
Actually, that pretty much sums up Naomi Klein's book.  You needn't bother reading it now.

*Sorry that I conflated your earlier point with conspiracy theories - I was thrown by some of the hyperbole. I often get distracted by trees.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: JayzusB.Christ on 21 December, 2020, 09:47:04 PM
Quote from: Old Tankie on 21 December, 2020, 09:24:51 PM
Me and the wife both have Covid, feeling rough but still at home and hoping for the best.

Long time no see!  Hope you and your missus have a speedy recovery.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Old Tankie on 21 December, 2020, 10:02:11 PM
Thanks, we have been affected in different ways, I seem to be doing a bit better than my partner who has a bad cough and terrible fatigue, I completely lost my taste and smell and feel like I've got a bad headache and cold.
We have no idea how we have caught the virus, test and trace has worked well in our case.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 21 December, 2020, 10:02:26 PM
Quote from: Old Tankie on 21 December, 2020, 09:24:51 PM
Me and the wife both have Covid, feeling rough but still at home and hoping for the best.

Good to see you Tankie, very sorry about the circumstances. Sincerely hoping you two blast through it in no time.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Old Tankie on 21 December, 2020, 10:05:15 PM
Thank you.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Bolt-01 on 22 December, 2020, 08:07:34 AM
Crappy circumstances, but it is great to see your name on the board again!

Hope you both make a speedy recovery.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IAMTHESYSTEM on 22 December, 2020, 11:12:48 AM
There are 'Go' lights Green for entry, Red to remain outside the main Tesco Superstore Doors now. Quite big queues due to Christmas, Covid-19 and I suspect worries over the looming deadline for Brexit. Not much fun standing in the rain yesterday and I probably have to look forward to it again before Friday comes. A lot more people now walk on the roads around here indeed I almost ran into somebody in my car driving home from work. A lot more cyclists as well and I now feel I'm missing something if I don't have mask inside a pocket, ready to be pulled out at a moments notice. Hope everyone's feeling okay, it's a ghastly marathon we're involved in here, and the reports of a new strain of the virus are worrying. Stay safe as you can folksy!
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 23 December, 2020, 09:50:25 AM
Chris Giles, economics editor of the Financial Times, has been working on refining the data with his team since it all started.

84,400 excess deaths in the U.K. alone.

For perspective, 67,100 U.K. civilians died in World War II.

You read that right. More citizens have died in the U.K. in 9 months as a result of the mishandling of this virus, than died in all six years of WWII.

https://twitter.com/chrisgiles_/status/1341365349795721216?s=21


Someone reminded me that this is still less than the 120,000 deaths linked to the welfare reforms of IDS and the Tories.

However, awful as that remains, those deaths are between 2010 and 2017. No doubt they continue to grow, and exceed those reported in the initial findings presented in the BMJ, but those fatalities didn't all happen within one year.

https://bmjopen.bmj.com/content/7/11/e017722
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 23 December, 2020, 10:39:00 AM
Quote from: shaolin_monkey on 23 December, 2020, 09:50:25 AM
84,400 excess deaths in the U.K. alone.

For perspective, 67,100 U.K. civilians died in World War II.

This estimate is also the size of Britain's entire regular army (plus marines)*.  Significant demographic differences (opposites?) aside, imagine the impact of the army being completely wiped out in 9 months.


* According to Wikipedia,  at any rate.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 23 December, 2020, 10:58:05 AM
More than one in a thousand dead, many of which were due to how the government mishandled this. And yet the Tories still appear to have a floor of at least 35% (and possibly as high as the low 40s).
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 23 December, 2020, 11:50:45 AM
Quote from: shaolin_monkey on 23 December, 2020, 09:50:25 AM
or perspective, 67,100 U.K. civilians died in World War II.

As I noted a couple of pages back, even the PHE 28-day figure, arguably the least controversial measure, passed that milestone a few days back.

On top of that, recent polling shows 59% of the UK population think the entire PPE/Covid response process has been corrupt. And yet, as IP observes, when you'd expect the Tories' polling to be in the toilet, they'd almost certainly still be in power if there was a general election tomorrow.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 23 December, 2020, 12:05:58 PM
To add to the festive Covid cheer...

On 8th December, the UK government announced, with much fanfare, that the Covid vaccination programme had begun.

Thirteen days later, they announced that 500,000 doses had been administered.

In order for things to (possibly) be something approximating normal by Christmas 2021, the government needs to vaccinate somewhere near 50M people... and the current vaccine has to be administered twice, meaning that they should be delivering around 250,000 doses per day.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 23 December, 2020, 12:06:30 PM
Quotethey'd almost certainly still be in power if there was a general election tomorrow.
In part, because the Tory base is on-side and our electoral system is a shitshow. I do hope at some point, Labour recognises this, gets into power, and enacts electoral reform. At least then, the likelihood of this level of disaster ever happening again is dramatically reduced.

At this point, you do wonder what's required for even fairly moderate English Tories to switch to Labour or the Lib Dems en masse. "Johnson yesterday accidentally nuked Bristol." "We can't blame him—it's really tough being Prime Minister. And besides, I can't stomach the idea of SIR Keir being PM—I've had enough of the elites!" "But your mum lived in Bristol." "She would have wanted it this way."

That all said, a lot now hinges on vaccination. We now know we, for no good reason, paid well over the odds for the vaccine. And there's a reasonable chance they'll fuck up the rollout. Hard to see them coming back from the latter. (But if the vaccine is rolled out at reasonable speed and proves effective, that could be the shield the Tories need to get them through a big chunk of 2021 at the very least.)
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Tjm86 on 23 December, 2020, 12:31:40 PM
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 23 December, 2020, 12:06:30 PM
At this point, you do wonder what's required for even fairly moderate English Tories to switch to Labour or the Lib Dems en masse. "Johnson yesterday accidentally nuked Bristol." "We can't blame him—it's really tough being Prime Minister.

To be fair if he decided to nuke Suffolk he would have my vote!
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Professor Bear on 23 December, 2020, 01:42:56 PM
I note that commentators are starting to ask why the mutant strain of Covid that the government was briefing about in September is only becoming an issue right now, when highlighting it as a "new" threat is only likely to cause unnecessary panic, so while I am a big fan of calling the government response incompetence rather than conspiracy, I think it's probably safe to call this out as the exact same Dead Cat mass-distraction bullshit the Tories have been pulling for at least the last decade (and for which they infamously gave political strategist Linton Crosby a knighthood).

Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 23 December, 2020, 12:05:58 PMmeaning that they should be delivering around 250,000 doses per day.

This vaccination calculator  (https://www.omnicalculator.com/health/vaccine-queue-uk)will take your details and calculate how long until you can realistically expect to be vaccinated - though it assumes a rate of 1 million doses a week to make its calculations, so multiply whatever results you get by 4.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 23 December, 2020, 02:06:35 PM
There is no more depressing feeling than agreeing with the Prof 100% on the Politics-and/or-Covid thread.  At least when you find yourself nodding along with the Shark, there's a air of boundless optimism to embrace.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 23 December, 2020, 03:08:38 PM
I think we need to be a little cautious on the "they knew about this in September" line. However, they unarguably did know about this in early December, yet still blazed ahead with the Christmas relaxation bullshit messaging. The suggestion is when Johnson was presented with an "apocalyptic" scenario for February, he finally started listening.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Professor Bear on 23 December, 2020, 04:13:23 PM
TB, I am the most optimistic person I know.  At least half the time, anyway.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Funt Solo on 23 December, 2020, 04:55:23 PM
There's a tendency to endow one's enemy with supernatural powers when your agenda is to paint them as preternaturally competent at being evil.

An article (https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/coronavirus-strain-covid-vaccine-rules-b1776788.html) in (on?) the Independent has the new variant being identified in October from a sample taken in September.

The COG-UK Showcase Event (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G3CT9N89L-c&feature=youtu.be) is TOO LONG TOO WATCH, but the sections on mutant strains demonstrate that there's a huge difference between recording data, interpreting data, summarizing data and then (at some point further down the line) distilling that data and providing it (if relevant) to a politician, who will then interpret it further and so on.

So, not quite as easy as "detected in September - the government KNEW ALL ALONG!" Except, you know, in the febrile, hoary fiction of the dinner table. Or the keyboard.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: JOE SOAP on 23 December, 2020, 05:25:27 PM
Their power is that they are in power and everyone else isn't, and their particular compentency to gaslight a nation with whatever information is available, is well observed.

I believe hammer met nail in a recent Rafael Behr article as to how BJ operates.

(http://i.imgur.com/GKOmrzp.jpg) (https://imgur.com/GKOmrzp)

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/dec/15/boris-johnson-pandemic-britain-christmas-covid
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Professor Bear on 23 December, 2020, 10:16:16 PM
This is why the Dead Cat is such a great strategy for Tories: it's entirely reactionary, and by its nature requires no skill to pull off - even if they fail and everyone talks about their transparent ploy at misdirection, that's just as good.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 24 December, 2020, 10:15:35 AM
So I was wondering about two things now we're in tier 4: schooling and shopping, given that the former is a massive vector locally and the latter is something that's going to cause problems in terms of access.

Schooling, judging by the current rules, isn't set to change at all. Guidance still suggests secondary pupils mask up only in corridors, because presumably COVID doesn't actually hang around in the air, and secondary pupils no longer mix, thereby making for a bubble that can be anything up to 1.5k in size. Also, luckily, primary kids don't get COVID, and so there are no extra measures; this will come as a shock to a friend who informs me 15% of his kid's class were confirmed until the contact tracing shut off for schools.

Actually, I lie about there being nothing new: schools are "promised" more fast testing capabilities, so that's OK then. A sensible solution that the govt won't take: keep all schools shut for at least one extra week.

Shopping is an odd one. My parents have been doing click and collect from a local supermarket that has its shit together. Collections take place at the far end of an open air car park. There is no interaction with other people and plenty of hand sanitiser. It is very safe. But it's also over LA boundaries and not the most local option. So I asked a councillor: should my ageing parents continue to shop there (an approx. 4.5 mile drive) or is that now illegal? The details, natch, do not permit a specific travel limitation.

His response was a wonderfully entitled "well, I just order locally from local firms because I'm a Tory and local firms are great, even if you have to pay more". OK, thanks. That answers... nothing. He did at least admit it would be safer for my parents to continue using click and collect rather than braving the cramped, smaller and usually understocked supermarket in their home town. But this shouldn't even be something you have to question — you certainly don't if you're living in Spain or France, because they stipulate the specifics. You know precisely how many times a day you can leave your home and how far you can travel.

Meanwhile, the number of local truthers continues to skyrocket. Lots of people running with "I don't see why we should lockdown when the survival rate is over 98%". Yes, let's forget the survival rate is heavily reliant on hospitals being able to help those in need, the random nature of the degree in which symptoms affect people, the long-term effects of COVID that a large percentage of people are still very unwell months later, and the increasingly high likelihood that you can catch a form of this more than once. Well, that and 2% of the UK's population being well north of half a million people.

I thought with Brexit the UK had plumbed the depths of human arrogance, selfishness and idiocy; apparently not.



Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 24 December, 2020, 10:37:30 AM
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 24 December, 2020, 10:15:35 AM
I thought with Brexit the UK had plumbed the depths of human arrogance, selfishness and idiocy; apparently not.

I spent the most depressing afternoon in recent memory (ie: this week) on a local community FB group I help admin. I posted a suggestion that the government's Christmas relaxation of Covid restrictions was not 'following the science' and posted the joint editorial from the BMJ/HSJ practically begging them to reconsider.

The vast majority of responses were along the lines of "Well, you don't want to believe what the government tells you" and, when I pointed out that they obviously hadn't read either my post or the linked article because I was doing the exact opposite of that, the responses were: "Well, you can't believe what doctors say, either."

So who, then, are they believing? It appears to literally be 'something my mate Dave saw on YouTube'.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 24 December, 2020, 10:40:49 AM
Emergency statement from Independent SAGE.

Immediate lockdown is required.

Independent SAGE is made up of some of the best epidemiologists, doctors, and health professionals the U.K. has to offer.

If they are saying an immediate lockdown of the entire U.K. is needed right now, and Xmas be damned, I believe them!

Their full statement attached.

https://twitter.com/independentsage/status/1342051746307338240?s=21


Quote
NEW: Independent SAGE met last night to discuss the worsening crisis. The govt admits Tiers 1-3 cannot contain the virus. We fear Christmas Day mixing in context of new strain will create 1000s of dangerous super-spreading events.

The entire UK needs to go into Tier 4 *TODAY*.

The situation across the UK, particularly
England and Wales, is rapidly worsening.
Evidence is now strong that the new variant of
Covid-19 (B117) is significantly more infectious
than previous strains. This is making a bad
situation worse. Cases in all tiers are rising,
even where the variant is still rare. As Matt
Hancock announced on 23 December, Tiers
1-3 are not able to contain spread of the new
variant. Dr Jenny Harries confirmed that the
new variant is also present across the UK and
its dominance is spreading outwards rapidly
from the South East across England. Modelling
from the London School of Hygiene and
Tropical Medicine estimates that the new
variant will account for 90% of new cases by
mid-January. Christmas Day mixing of
households indoors for prolonged periods of
time, as allowed in tiers 1 to 3 in England and
across the devolved nations, sets the scene for
thousands of super-spreading events. In the
context of the new strain, this is incredibly
dangerous.

We believe that the government must
immediately:
1. Rescind a relaxation of the rules and ban
household mixing on Christmas Day (apart
from exemptions and pre-existing bubbles)
2. Place all regions of England in Tier 4 to
suppress spread of the virus as far as possible
while scientists continue to learn more about
the new variant. The devolved nations should
bring forward their own national lockdowns
from Boxing Day to 24th December. Tier 4
should include enhanced travel restrictions.
3. Put in place an emergency plan to enable
safe education in January and February.
4. Focus all efforts on mass roll-out of
vaccination.
The inability to control COVID-19 is leading to
emergence of variants with increasing
transmission potential. The new variant and
the potential emergence of others requires a
complete rethink of all mitigation strategies.
Independent SAGE will release a more detailed
plan for control and suppression of the new
variant over the weekend.[\quote]

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Tjm86 on 24 December, 2020, 11:36:52 AM
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 24 December, 2020, 10:37:30 AM
So who, then, are they believing? It appears to literally be 'something my mate Dave saw on YouTube'.

This is where the likes of NewsThump are terrifyingly accurate in their satire.  Some of their articles hit the nail on the head so hard it goes right through the wood!  Couple of examples;

Scientists urged to seek advice on new Covid strain from bloke off Twitter  (https://newsthump.com/2020/12/15/scientists-urged-to-seek-advice-on-new-covid-strain-from-bloke-off-twitter/)

'I'm not letting a vaccine alter my DNA' insists 3rd generation criminal with family history of depression and coronary heart disease (https://newsthump.com/2020/12/03/im-not-letting-a-vaccine-alter-my-dna-insists-3rd-generation-criminal-with-family-history-of-depression-and-coronary-heart-disease/)

I don't trust that vaccine, insists man whose last line of blow was cut with cattle dewormer  (https://newsthump.com/2020/12/02/i-dont-trust-that-vaccine-insists-man-whose-last-line-of-blow-was-cut-with-cattle-dewormer/)

University of Life's Epidemiology class of 2020 leaps into action  (https://newsthump.com/2020/12/02/university-of-lifes-epidemiology-class-of-2020-leaps-into-action/)

Then you have politicians like Priti Patel telling the nation that the government has been "ahead of the curve" throughout the pandemic.

So I guess I can see why people are responding as they do!  :o
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Funt Solo on 24 December, 2020, 05:44:16 PM
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 24 December, 2020, 10:15:35 AM
Lots of people running with "I don't see why we should lockdown when the survival rate is over 98%".

That's been a persistent refrain since the outset - people are just failing to understand a percentage when applied at the scale of a population. I think even if you shook them by the shoulders and said "Dear God! 2% of the population is going to die!", they'd still respond with "Oh well, not too bad then! What's all the fuss about?"

The more successful we are at containing the spread of the virus, the more that plays into a theme of "what's all the fuss?"

My neighbor stopped for a chat the other day, and I popped back inside to get my mask - and he said "No need - I've not got Covid!" Which is more of that "common sense" nonsense. He doesn't know if he does or not. He doesn't know if I do. That's what the fucking mask is for! And the distance. And...

I've also been a little bewildered about how pathetic the government message around Xmas has been: isn't it possible to say "I know you like Xmas and hugs and shit, but grow a pair - it's a global pandemic". Instead of "Xmas & hugs are so important that you should all meet up and catch Covid", which seemed to be the Boris-approved play. No Blitz spirit anymore? Did it run out?

[/rant]
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 04 January, 2021, 02:42:29 AM
If you haven't seen this latest episode of BBC's Casualty yet, I urge you to do so as soon as you can.

Casualty, Series 35: Episode 1

www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m000r0dl
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 04 January, 2021, 09:27:43 AM
Having wrestled with the decision all weekend, mini-IP is staying home today, because our Tory majority council is to gutless to do anything beyond "relaying concerns from parents" to the DfE. Yeah, great. Our COVID rates are shooting up, are in some cases beyond the numbers in London, and our local hospitals are both on code black. But let's send the kiddies back to school!

Also: fuck Labour on this for not taking a stand and playing to the crowd and headlines. The shadow education minister has spent time slamming the Tories for the chaos, but not the policy. Starmer and Labour leaders are arguing for a November-style lockdown—which didn't work—versus the March one, stating schools should be the last thing to close. Depressing to find not only that we are ruled by ideological idiots, but that there's a different stripe of ideological idiot waiting in the wings. (The Greens got it right in Brighton, for all the good it will do them.)
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Trooper McFad on 04 January, 2021, 03:31:27 PM
Well that's Cal-Hab back in what's essentially full lock down till February and maybe longer. So plenty of time to finish some more projects. Though with my big birthday around the corner I should be vaccinated by May 🤞🏻.
It's still shite as that means grassroots football is still further delayed just as I was getting the boys back up to speed since the last lockdown 🙁
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Batman's Superior Cousin on 04 January, 2021, 04:38:23 PM
BBC reckons that we'll end up in Tier 5, aka Total Lockdown yet again!!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/explainers-52634739
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Tjm86 on 04 January, 2021, 05:21:21 PM
We'll have all schools in,
we'll have all schools out,
in, out, in, out,
Your head will spin about ...

You do the Covid-cokey,
And you cough and croak,
That's until Johnson's out!
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 07 January, 2021, 08:50:59 AM
Check out this fantastic new pamphlet discussing the facts, the myths, and the reliable sources of information on #COVID19 and the vaccines!

This free PDF has been carefully written and designed by experts to help deal with the disinformation on the subject.

https://hackmd.io/@scibehC19vax/home

Alternative PDF download sites:

https://osf.io/f6a48/

https://figshare.com/articles/online_resource/The_COVID-19_Vaccine_Communication_Handbook/13521605
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 07 January, 2021, 09:34:34 AM
I cannot emphasise enough just how bloody great this pamphlet is!!

If you're a medical professional, an educator, a policy maker, or anyone else who has to engage with the public over COVID-19 and the vaccine, this is an essential piece of your toolkit!

For everyone else, take 20 mins out of your day to look through it - so much great information in there about how to deal with the misinformation around the subject!

https://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/pfigshare-u-files/25971167/TheCOVID19VaccineCommunicationHandbook.pdf
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 07 January, 2021, 10:30:34 AM
It's great, many thanks for the heads-up.  Have already started firing at those I feel could use it.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: JayzusB.Christ on 07 January, 2021, 10:34:29 AM
Quote from: shaolin_monkey on 07 January, 2021, 09:34:34 AM
I cannot emphasise enough just how bloody great this pamphlet is!!

If you're a medical professional, an educator, a policy maker, or anyone else who has to engage with the public over COVID-19 and the vaccine, this is an essential piece of your toolkit!

For everyone else, take 20 mins out of your day to look through it - so much great information in there about how to deal with the misinformation around the subject!

https://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/pfigshare-u-files/25971167/TheCOVID19VaccineCommunicationHandbook.pdf

Thanks, shaolin, that's great stuff.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Tiplodocus on 13 January, 2021, 11:53:14 PM
This is just fucking grim now.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Rately on 14 January, 2021, 10:40:01 AM
How the Tories haven't had to resign, at this stage, depresses me so completely.

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 14 January, 2021, 10:57:38 AM
When their polling is holding up so well, why would they feel the need to change at all? It doesn't help that Brits have normalised this now. Other countries are broadly back to normal, with brief periods of lockdown. Their peaks are like our best days. But Brits now think a thousand deaths a day is bad rather than insanely catastrophic and that a few dozen a day is fine, despite that being the sort of thing many countries have yet to even suffer. It's insane and ludicrous and I don't know what it'll take to wake Brits up from this.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Rately on 14 January, 2021, 11:54:01 AM
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 14 January, 2021, 10:57:38 AM
When their polling is holding up so well, why would they feel the need to change at all? It doesn't help that Brits have normalised this now. Other countries are broadly back to normal, with brief periods of lockdown. Their peaks are like our best days. But Brits now think a thousand deaths a day is bad rather than insanely catastrophic and that a few dozen a day is fine, despite that being the sort of thing many countries have yet to even suffer. It's insane and ludicrous and I don't know what it'll take to wake Brits up from this.

A thousand people plus a day. My God.

Is there even any value to a single human life? How anyone in this Government can look themselves in the mirror, killing people so their cronies can profit.

To see the Tories still topping polling says it all about how far Britain has fallen.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 14 January, 2021, 11:59:52 AM
The total PHE 28-day figure is now nudging 85,000.

Remember Live Aid? Remember the capacity crowd at Wembley? That was about 85,000 people. Or the entire population of St Albans or Hemel Hempstead.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Professor Bear on 14 January, 2021, 12:16:10 PM
To the Tories, this is just solving the surplus population question.  Their only concern is with the optics, and four years away from an election, with the media still very much on their side and the opposition playing purity-politics games that keep the working classes split, the Tories aren't even particularly concerned with optics.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 14 January, 2021, 12:36:23 PM
The normalisation of avoidable mass deaths is sobering, and not just a UK or US issue.  As a nation we (rightly) still get exercised about the killing of 14 civilians a century ago on Bloody Sunday 1920, or 14 civilians 50 years ago on Bloody Sunday 1972, but yesterday alone we notified 63 additional Covid deaths here, over twice the combined totals of those tragedies.  And yet our Health Minister, an ambulatory boiled egg, continues to demonstrably lie and tell us his government followed public health advice (they didn't), and it's actually all our own fault.  Goes as far as to state that our bacchanalian revels on New Years Eve were the cause of high case numbers on New Years Day (an obvious impossibility), and yet somehow he retains his job.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 14 January, 2021, 01:12:12 PM
Interesting Twitter thread (https://twitter.com/rowlsmanthorpe/status/1349459843833352192?s=20&fbclid=IwAR3a7y6T9I-Aymfc9RXszvzu5XJUvuFgP0tnQL5LwY4dZSyUT0dvY_edBXI) here on the UK government narrative that the Covid rules are sufficient, but there's not enough compliance.

TL;DR version: there's good compliance with most rules, excellent compliance with many. The one that's falling short is the one that's most importance, and which (possibly not coincidentally) the government gives least emphasis to... self-isolation.

(https://i.imgur.com/VHb94Ta.png)

With the new variant being so much more contagious, this should be 1) legally enforcible, and 2) supported by the most generous support package imaginable. Literally, whatever you're earning now, we will pay you for twenty days to stay at home. If you live alone, we will bring food and medication to your doorstep. Now, stay the fuck indoors or you'll get a fine so big your children will be paying it off. And that goes for everyone else in your house.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 14 January, 2021, 02:00:41 PM
This government's entire way of operating is to get quick headlines, do little or no work, ignore key details, and blame others when things go wrong. COVID is just another example. It was always going to be someone else's fault. In this case, the blame is placed on the public. Depressingly, polling suggests most of the public agrees. (I don't think the public doesn't share the blame. Plenty of people don't do what they should, and we've been a 'least possible' culture throughout this pandemic. But the government has been a shambles and should have done much better. Mind you, policing of the style seen in South Korea or even Spain wouldn't be possible here, because we just don't have the numbers for enforcement. Locally, it's all now down to community 'officers'.)
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Eamonn Clarke on 15 January, 2021, 09:13:02 PM
Quote from: shaolin_monkey on 21 December, 2020, 04:18:50 PM
Here's our very own forum superstar healthcare professional Eamonn Clarke getting the vaccine!

Nice one Eamonn!!

(https://i.imgur.com/hRLjtoM.jpg)

Just catching up here. Thanks, SM.

We have a vaccination hub at a nearby practice in two poly tunnels that were erected by volunteers. I have been administering both the Pfizer and the AstraZeneca jabs for the last few weeks and apart from some sore bruised arms no serious reactions. Blooming cold in the tunnels though.

It won't surprise you to learn that our biggest problem is getting the vaccines. We've had deliveries cancelled and others turning up with a few days notice. Still we haven't wasted any vaccine doses. If they give us the jabs we'll get the job done.

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: JayzusB.Christ on 16 January, 2021, 10:14:34 AM
Good man, Eamonn, you're one of the best.

Here, however, is one of the worst, a literal waste of oxygen deservedly being torn to shreds. https://www.thepoke.co.uk/2021/01/16/laurence-fox-has-got-himself-a-mask-exempt-badge-7-responses/ (https://www.thepoke.co.uk/2021/01/16/laurence-fox-has-got-himself-a-mask-exempt-badge-7-responses/)
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 16 January, 2021, 11:19:21 AM
Top stuff, Eamonn.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Trooper McFad on 16 January, 2021, 12:29:11 PM
Top man Eamonn hope the supply issues are resolved. Busy time ahead for you and all the others involved 👍🏻
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 18 January, 2021, 06:09:17 PM

It seems some Italian restaurants may be kicking off - #IoOpro.

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Rately on 18 January, 2021, 08:27:47 PM
Quote from: JayzusB.Christ on 16 January, 2021, 10:14:34 AM
Good man, Eamonn, you're one of the best.

Here, however, is one of the worst, a literal waste of oxygen deservedly being torn to shreds. https://www.thepoke.co.uk/2021/01/16/laurence-fox-has-got-himself-a-mask-exempt-badge-7-responses/ (https://www.thepoke.co.uk/2021/01/16/laurence-fox-has-got-himself-a-mask-exempt-badge-7-responses/)

Awful. I just don't get what somebody is thinking when they get on like this. Contrarian to the end. More worrying as well to see the number of people jumping in to defend him.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: JayzusB.Christ on 27 January, 2021, 01:34:49 PM
Here in Ireland, according to the Worldometer, the number of new infections has dropped from over 8000 on January the 8th - worse than the worst projections a week prior to that - to less than 1000.  Of course, it shouldn't have got so bad so quickly, but it's something of a relief to see that the new restrictions are working.

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 27 January, 2021, 02:46:40 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/pGhQxsq.jpg)
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: judgeurko on 27 January, 2021, 06:49:41 PM
Boris Johnson is a mass murderer
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 28 January, 2021, 09:58:35 AM
Cast your mind back to the first week of May last year, when the UK racked up the worst Covid death total in Europe, a milestone even the Tory-friendly arms of the media couldn't ignore. That was 29,000 total deaths.

We will have racked up 30,000 deaths in January 2021 alone. This is a direct result of not closing the schools months earlier (as the scientists whose work the government claims to be guided by were begging them to do), a half-arsed tier system when a lockdown at least as strict as the one in March '20 was required (and which they still haven't done) and the utterly deranged Christmas relaxation of the rules.

On Jan 1st, epidemiologist Dr Deepti Gurdasani tweeted:

QuoteUnfortunately between 20-25,000 deaths in January are already baked in, given most of those who will die in the next 3-4 weeks have already been infected. But if we don't act now, we'll see many more in February, and the real risk that the NHS will not be able to treat everyone.

People reacted with horror, but that turns out to have been an underestimate. I'm genuinely unable to comprehend why even the staunchest Tory media outlet isn't calling for Johnson's head.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 28 January, 2021, 10:44:42 AM
Because he looked very, very sad in that photo. (I mean, let's then ignore the fact he then said now is not the time to reflect on past mistakes, and nor will the future be, because we'll just have to get on with things.) But he looked so very sad. The poor man. There's really nothing more anyone could have done*, because no-one has a crystal ball**.

* except listen to the scientists

** because we have fucking scientists
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Huey2 on 28 January, 2021, 03:11:44 PM
He might have looked sad but he still didn't deem the situation important enough to comb his fucking hair when speaking to the nation.

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: JayzusB.Christ on 02 February, 2021, 07:50:29 AM
New infections here in Ireland are about one-eighth of what they were three weeks ago, and we're still up there with the highest numbers of the two previous spikes.  I really hope next Christmas isn't such a shitshow.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: paddykafka on 02 February, 2021, 02:41:40 PM
At last, some commonsense and rationality is being introduced to the Covid discussion.  ;)

https://www.dublinlive.ie/news/dublin-news/god-blackrock-exorcism-catholicchurch-coronavirus-19716757

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Molch-R on 08 February, 2021, 08:11:45 PM
Please be aware that we will not allow this forum to be used to post dangerous conspiracy theories, even obliquely. Offending posts will be removed.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 09 February, 2021, 02:57:13 PM

Tordels, you have mail.

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: JayzusB.Christ on 10 February, 2021, 08:19:59 AM
Quite a reassuring drop-off here in Ireland from over 8000 new cases a month ago to just over 500 now.  The resulting death toll of the last spike is still worryingly high though.  Just wish we could get those vaccines rolling out as quickly as you're doing it in the UK - anti-Brexit as I am, the EU has really dropped the ball here.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 10 February, 2021, 11:19:11 AM
Although it does now turn out a great many of our vaccines are Oxford, which will do fuck-all against the SA variant. That's fine if we stay in semi-lockdown until autumn boosters, but given this govt...
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Funt Solo on 13 February, 2021, 05:41:03 AM
A nice wee story in a difficult time: I saved dad's business with a single tweet (https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-glasgow-west-56001799)
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 13 February, 2021, 12:16:02 PM
Also an excellent example of the need to market your services.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 14 February, 2021, 07:11:28 PM


Disabled people more likely to die of COVID. (https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-56033813)

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 19 February, 2021, 12:47:15 PM
The Good Law Project has won the first of several court actions against the U.K. government related to dodgy contracts given out to Tory mates due to COVID19 (ie PPE, marketing and communications, ICU equipment, track and trace etc etc), without oversight, scrutiny or tender. The court has found the government has acted illegally.

" The High Court has ruled "The Secretary of State acted unlawfully by failing to comply with the Transparency Policy" and that "there is now no dispute that, in a substantial number of cases, the Secretary of State breached his legal obligation to publish Contract Award Notices within 30 days of the award of contracts." We have won the judicial review we brought alongside Debbie Abrahams MP, Caroline Lucas MP, and Layla Moran MP.

In handing down the judgment, Judge Chamberlain brought into sharp focus why this case was so important. "The Secretary of State spent vast quantities of public money on pandemic-related procurements during 2020. The public were entitled to see who this money was going to, what it was being spent on and how the relevant contracts were awarded."

The Judge went on to say that if Government had complied with its legal obligations we "would have been able to scrutinise CANs and contract provisions, ask questions about them and raise any issues with oversight bodies such as the NAO or via MPs in Parliament."  When Government eschews transparency, it evades accountability.

Government's behaviour came under criticism in the judgment. If it had admitted to being in breach of the law when we first raised our concerns, it would have never been necessary to take this judicial review to its conclusion. Instead, they chose a path of obfuscation, racking up over £200,000 of legal costs as a result. 

We shouldn't be forced to rely on litigation to keep those in power honest, but in this case it's clear that our challenge pushed Government to comply with its legal obligations. Judge Chamberlain stated that the admission of breach by Government was "secured as a result of this litigation and at a late stage of it" and "I have no doubt that this claim has speeded up compliance". It begs the question, if we hadn't brought this legal challenge, what other contract details would have remained hidden from view?"

https://goodlawproject.org/update/the-judgment-is-in/

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 20 February, 2021, 07:08:58 PM

Vaccine refusers will be kept to 'supermarkets, pharmacies' when Israel opens up. (https://www.timesofisrael.com/government-plans-to-punish-businesses-that-serve-unvaccinated-customers-report/)

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 20 February, 2021, 08:16:25 PM

I've just read an  international statement by health professionals, medical doctors and scientists, (including Nobel laureates) which has been sent to the governments of thirty countries. Unfortunately, I can't tell you what it was about, what it said, or where it is.

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Funt Solo on 20 February, 2021, 08:22:55 PM
Quote from: The Legendary Shark on 20 February, 2021, 08:16:25 PM
I've just read an  international statement by health professionals, medical doctors and scientists, (including Nobel laureates) which has been sent to the governments of thirty countries. Unfortunately, I can't tell you what it was about, what it said, or where it is.

Memory loss: When to seek help (https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/alzheimers-disease/in-depth/memory-loss/art-20046326)
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Funt Solo on 20 February, 2021, 08:28:04 PM
Quote from: The Legendary Shark on 20 February, 2021, 07:08:58 PM

Vaccine refusers will be kept to 'supermarkets, pharmacies' when Israel opens up. (https://www.timesofisrael.com/government-plans-to-punish-businesses-that-serve-unvaccinated-customers-report/)

Seems entirely reasonable, given the circumstances. For years, people in my current country who refuse to vaccinate their children are not then allowed to send said children to federally funded schools. Because that would be endangering everyone else for no good reason.

I also had to provide evidence of my own vaccination history (can't recall what for, off the top of my head - maybe it was MMR) in order to do my job in a federally funded school. Because if I didn't make sure I was vaccinated I'd be endangering everyone else for no good reason.

Anti-vaxxers are determined to endanger everyone else (often including their own children - who they're supposed to care for) for no good reason.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: von Boom on 21 February, 2021, 01:20:21 AM
Anti-vaxxers irritate me no end. They should just wear hats saying 'Let's Make Polio Great Again!'
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 21 February, 2021, 10:02:09 AM
Humanity has a short collective memory. Because many in the west no longer find themselves experiencing how these diseases are — either first-hand or through friends/family — some immediately leap to bizarre arguments like how we should just be natural. My FIL was the last year in his country to miss the polio jab. He got polio. The result is a lifetime of physical challenges and, recently, increasingly obtrusive surgeries.

To eradicate diseases from circulation, those diseases need nowhere to go. Fully vaccinating the population is impossible and so we need to shield those who are very young or who have conditions that mean it is unsafe to vaccinate them. I find it terrifying and upsetting that in the UK, we are fast heading to a place where diseases that shouldn't even be on the radar could well make a comeback. (The USA is much further down that road.)
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: JayzusB.Christ on 21 February, 2021, 10:22:18 AM
Quote from: The Legendary Shark on 20 February, 2021, 08:16:25 PM

I've just read an  international statement by health professionals, medical doctors and scientists, (including Nobel laureates) which has been sent to the governments of thirty countries. Unfortunately, I can't tell you what it was about, what it said, or where it is.

I'm guessing this is some kind of satirical jibe at some person or group, but I'm honestly not getting it. Sorry if I'm being naive but could you explain it?
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 21 February, 2021, 12:14:20 PM

If I explained it, that explanation would be deleted.

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: JayzusB.Christ on 21 February, 2021, 01:14:58 PM
OK.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Tjm86 on 21 February, 2021, 02:51:48 PM
Quote from: Funt Solo on 20 February, 2021, 08:28:04 PM
Anti-vaxxers are determined to endanger everyone else (often including their own children - who they're supposed to care for) for no good reason.

On the plus side, it does actually decrease the likelihood of long-term damage to the gene pool of the likes we are seeing at present.

By the way, I've just read a statement by my next-door neighbour's poodle, the Alsatian up the road and a chihuahua that strolls our streets from time to time.  I can't tell you what it said, where they've posted it or why but I feel fairly sure that it is barking ...
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: JayzusB.Christ on 21 February, 2021, 04:41:43 PM
Ah, the penny drops.  It was a real statement saying that Covid 19 isn't as harmful as everyone says, but it'll be deleted if posted here.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Funt Solo on 21 February, 2021, 05:19:52 PM
Ah! A clear sign that the admins are part of the lizard cult, or..?

Nope. I can't think of anything more reasonable than that. Lizard cultists it is.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 21 February, 2021, 05:30:55 PM
I can confirm we are in fact members of the lizard cult. Either that or we're just adhering to previously stated rules about not spreading disinformation on this particular thread.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Funt Solo on 21 February, 2021, 05:52:43 PM
The homemade special effects livening up lockdown (https://www.bbc.com/news/av/uk-northern-ireland-56119823) - I really value the more upbeat news stories these day.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 21 February, 2021, 08:35:02 PM

Quote from: IndigoPrime
link=topic=46306.msg1053548#msg1053548
date=1613928655


..we're just adhering to previously stated rules about not spreading disinformation on this particular thread.


Which I get. Really.

However, where's the line between disinformation and information? Is it Government Approved Facts or nothing? Who decides?

I am unlikely to come here and post a link to some lunatic who claims invisible ghost elves are using Venusian mindstones to create death rays out of cellphone masts, but if I do post a link to a scientist who has some interesting observations about Mars, that post is treated much as if I'd posted the first. They're both filed under Anti-Something and ignored, entirely because of that label. (Metaphors. Staying in-line is quite a challenge for me...)

Maybe the entire forum's walking a fine line, I don't know. I hope not - because if it was, that would be terrifying.

I recently passed the milestone of becoming a CALL-ME-KENNETH!, which means only that I've been around here for a while, become what in the Old Dial Up Modem Days was called a reg, and folk hereabouts know me. Yeah, I'm a bit unique (just like everyone else), but I hope I've demonstrated by now - through words and deeds - that I do not mean anyone any harm. Precisely the opposite. Because being a CALL-ME-KENNETH! means also that I care about this site and the people on it. I don't do FaceTube or any of that cobblers (which is just like broadcast television, which I don't do either), just this place. You only have my word for this, but I haven't been coming here all these years just to piss people off. But I'm not going to pander to them, either.

If I post a link it's because I think it's important. What people do with that is up to them. I may give my view but that's it - I expect people to make up their own minds.

Just remember one thing about me when you're reading my posts and you won't go far wrong - I will never tell you to think, believe, say, or do anything you don't want to.

If the forum is walking a thin line then let me know - I don't want to stumble into being the cause of its demise - and I'll shut up. Or we'll do PMs or e-mails or smoke signals or something.

If it's not - let the forumites decide. Some kind of democratic vote, maybe? Two buttons on each post, "yay!" and "boo!"? "Adulate!" and "Exterminate!"? "Discuss" and "Hush"?

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Definitely Not Mister Pops on 21 February, 2021, 09:05:51 PM
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 21 February, 2021, 05:30:55 PM
I can confirm we are in fact members of the lizard cult. Either that or we're just adhering to previously stated rules about not spreading disinformation on this particular thread.

You can't fool me, I know your're really mole people!
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: JayzusB.Christ on 21 February, 2021, 09:15:17 PM
Quote from: Mister Pops on 21 February, 2021, 09:05:51 PM
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 21 February, 2021, 05:30:55 PM
I can confirm we are in fact members of the lizard cult. Either that or we're just adhering to previously stated rules about not spreading disinformation on this particular thread.

You can't fool me, I know your're really mole people!

I went to see David Icke do a talk once in Trinity College, for the craic.  It was run by the  Science Fiction Society and the disappointing fecker didn't mention you lizard people once.  Also, I love the fact that I just looked him up to check the spelling of his surname, and his description in Google is 'David Icke - Footballer'.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 21 February, 2021, 09:27:49 PM

I seem to recall Icke saying something about the lizard-people being taken out of context, that he meant people driven by their lizard (primitive) brains rather than their evolved brains.

Then again, he also claims to have been engulfed in divine fire on top of a pyramid in South America.

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Definitely Not Mister Pops on 21 February, 2021, 09:34:54 PM
Quote from: The Legendary Shark on 21 February, 2021, 08:35:02 PM

Quote from: IndigoPrime
link=topic=46306.msg1053548#msg1053548
date=1613928655


..we're just adhering to previously stated rules about not spreading disinformation on this particular thread.


Which I get. Really.

However, where's the line between disinformation and information? Is it Government Approved Facts or nothing? Who decides?


Certainly you can't be trusted to decide, because *gestures broadly at Shark's post history*

Rebellion decides. They can't tell you what to believe, but they can tell you not to say it on their website. Don't like it? Then buy the company or go somewhere else that isn't so weary of your boobery.

Also, I've mentioned this elsewhere, David Icke was denied entry to Canada because they claimed the whole lizard people thing was an anti-semitic dog-whistle. His publicist then tried to convince Canadian immigration that Icke genuinely believed in lizard people. At this stage, he has made so many, unfounded, contrarian, outlandish or downright stupid claims that the person in question here can't be taken seriously.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Funt Solo on 21 February, 2021, 09:46:16 PM
Quote from: The Legendary Shark on 21 February, 2021, 08:35:02 PM
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 21 February, 2021, 05:30:55 PM
..we're just adhering to previously stated rules about not spreading disinformation on this particular thread.
Which I get. Really.

1. I don't know if any of your posts on this thread have actually been deleted.

2. If you want to post a link but it gets deleted from this thread, why not start a new thread - you could call it "My links that got deleted from the Covid-19 thread by an admin". Or "Links I think will get deleted from the Covid-19 thread by an admin".

3. You said "I will never tell you to think, believe, say, or do anything you don't want to" but you do have a tendency to redefine words to suit your current argument, so I have to call bullshit on that. Plus you've effectively started a sub-thread on this thread, several times now, about why you should be able to dominate this thread with pseudo-scientific drivel links. So ... you actually often give off the whiff of someone who really does want to control how other people think.

4. What I don't really comprehend is why you keep doing the same thing and expecting a different result. Oh, and I've never got any kind of a handle on what you actually, really, genuinely think about Covid - except you give hints that you've not entirely bought into its existence or its effects or its source. You say you don't want to piss people off, but then why undermine the validity of commonly held scientific knowledge - especially in such a febrile topic where people could be genuinely hurt (both emotionally and actually) by disinformation?

5. "Government Approved Facts" - of all the places on the Interwebs, you can't accuse the locals here of being government hand-jobbers. Catch thyself on.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: JayzusB.Christ on 21 February, 2021, 11:21:51 PM
Quote from: Funt Solo on 21 February, 2021, 09:46:16 PM

1. I don't know if any of your posts on this thread have actually been deleted.


At least one has, in fairness.

As for Government-approved-facts - in my case, if I went along with them rather than what the science says, I'd be injecting bleach.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: von Boom on 22 February, 2021, 12:04:12 AM
Quote from: JayzusB.Christ on 21 February, 2021, 11:21:51 PM
Quote from: Funt Solo on 21 February, 2021, 09:46:16 PM

1. I don't know if any of your posts on this thread have actually been deleted.


At least one has, in fairness.

As for Government-approved-facts - in my case, if I went along with them rather than what the science says, I'd be injecting bleach.
Fortunately, that's not one of my government's-approved-facts!
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Definitely Not Mister Pops on 22 February, 2021, 12:34:04 AM
Quote from: von Boom on 22 February, 2021, 12:04:12 AM
Quote from: JayzusB.Christ on 21 February, 2021, 11:21:51 PM
Quote from: Funt Solo on 21 February, 2021, 09:46:16 PM

1. I don't know if any of your posts on this thread have actually been deleted.


At least one has, in fairness.

As for Government-approved-facts - in my case, if I went along with them rather than what the science says, I'd be injecting bleach.
Fortunately, that's not one of my government's-approved-facts!

I am genuinely amazed to discover the UK Government approves of facts.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: JayzusB.Christ on 22 February, 2021, 08:05:48 AM
Quote from: von Boom on 22 February, 2021, 12:04:12 AM
Quote from: JayzusB.Christ on 21 February, 2021, 11:21:51 PM
Quote from: Funt Solo on 21 February, 2021, 09:46:16 PM

1. I don't know if any of your posts on this thread have actually been deleted.


At least one has, in fairness.

As for Government-approved-facts - in my case, if I went along with them rather than what the science says, I'd be injecting bleach.
Fortunately, that's not one of my government's-approved-facts!

Well, mine neither, I suppose. It's approved by a government, though. Or an ex-government now, fortunately.

Not saying my own government has played a blinder by any means, but I seem to remember Boris Johnson going with a vaccine - free herd immunity policy till the facts caught up with him.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 22 February, 2021, 07:00:15 PM
Funt:

1: I'll reply in PM.

2: I guess there's the "Truth...?" thread but I feel, and think, posting there would be just as bad as your suggestion. It simply shifts the problem instead of addressing it.

3a: The definition of terms is used in many arguments. It's not a way of imposing a definition by one upon another but of choosing a mutually acceptable definition for the purposes of a specific discussion so that participants don't end up arguing past one another. I make no apologies for requesting or suggesting a definition or context.

3b: I've gone back through my last ten posted links on this thread (going back to October) and found 2 links to the BBC, one each to the Times of Israel, simplepsychology.com, the World Economic Forum, an archive.org copy of a deleted JHU web page, the National Bureau of Economic Research, Wikipedia and one mammoth collection of a couple of dozen official scientific mask studies. I do not see how any of these are "pseudo-scientific drivel links." Nor, I think, is ten links in five months particularly dominating (though it could be argued, at a push, that the mammoth mask studies links post drives the average up considerably if taken individually).

4a: What result do you imagine I'm after? It's an ongoing conversation, a fluid situation with no last word. I think we've disagreed about this kind of thing before - the differences between arguing to advance knowledge and understanding and arguing to win, and all the other reasons. I have no result in mind, no goals beyond (admittedly selfishly) using counter-arguments to test my own beliefs. I would like nothing better than to believe that lockdowns and masks and all that will save civilization, it would be so comforting. I wish you could convince me.

4b: I'll reply in PM.

5: In the absence of any specific guidelines as to how misinformation, disinformation, and information are to be assessed, the idea of a list of Government Approved Facts is as valid as Donald Trump's Book of Wisdom or Tony Blair's Book of Honest to God Truths as the hypothetical basis upon which decisions are made. (I should stop trying to use sarcasm - it never works.)

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Funt Solo on 22 February, 2021, 08:06:51 PM
Shark - to keep it brief, I would suggest we move this side conversation to a different thread. I think it's an edge topic around ideas of free thought and expression, and not really much to do with Covid, when all is said and done. You might disagree, but let's not dominate here with an extended back and forth.

(It probably isn't possible to PM me - I locked some of those functions out months ago because I was being harassed by an ex-boarder through his spy-account.)

---

Meanwhile, the BBC has Covid: US on verge of exceeding 500,000 deaths (https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-56159756). It notes that deaths due to Covid are at least ten times that of the previous year's flu.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 22 February, 2021, 08:30:37 PM

Agreed.

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: JayzusB.Christ on 24 February, 2021, 05:50:11 PM
My brother in Leicester had his first shot yesterday - he was sick as a pike for the whole day afterwards and probably still is now.  Must be a bit of a relief, though.  He works in a prison and with underprivileged communities, see, and is needed back at work asap. 

While I'm delighted for him, I really wish they'd get their shit together over here - my parents, in their late 70s, still haven't had any news and probably won't for a while yet.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 24 February, 2021, 06:35:15 PM
Quote from: JayzusB.Christ on 24 February, 2021, 05:50:11 PM
While I'm delighted for him, I really wish they'd get their shit together over here - my parents, in their late 70s, still haven't had any news and probably won't for a while yet.

My 93 year old aunt only had her first jab today (thank jovus), so I wouldn't hold your breath.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Funt Solo on 24 February, 2021, 06:35:57 PM
I hope your folks get their chance soon, JBC. My folks and folks-in-law have all had their first injections (in Glasgow and Washington state, respectively) - and my wife got her first injection rather by happenstance due to the local native reservation having spares that were going to go off if they didn't use them up. They opted to gift them to the local school staff.

Hurt her arm for a few days, quite badly, but no other side effects.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: JayzusB.Christ on 24 February, 2021, 08:22:37 PM
Thanks, Funt.  Glad to hear so many of your family are nearly out of the woods.  Long may it continue.

TB, yeah, I know.  We're going nowhere fast.  Good news about your aunt, though; hope all goes well for her.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Funt Solo on 25 February, 2021, 04:46:33 AM
The colourful fridges popping up on American streets (https://www.bbc.com/news/av/business-56176965) - helping to tackle food poverty exacerbated due to economic impact of Covid.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 25 February, 2021, 09:41:46 AM


Alarm bells have been ringing for months that COVID-19 could push fragile African countries "closer to the abyss" of famine as jobs are lost, local markets close, and poverty deepens. (https://www.thenewhumanitarian.org/special-report/2020/10/14/Africa-coronavirus-famine)

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 25 February, 2021, 03:14:40 PM
A paper on COVID19 transmission amongst children.

Even a quick skim of this shows how foolhardy and irresponsible it is to re-open schools without transmission mitigation measures (masks, ventilation, reduced class sizes etc etc) to prevent transmission to the wider community.

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.5694/mja2.50823

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 25 February, 2021, 03:39:47 PM
Mm. The new variant blazed through a junior school class a friend's kid goes to. And the government's latest that it will "hope" secondary schools do the right thing is yet another abdication of responsibility. Mandate masks for the rest of 2021! It's not difficult. But no. So I don't doubt we'll soon have another letter from our school's headteacher, responding to arseholes who've complained over her head about having to wear a mask when picking up their children.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Tjm86 on 25 February, 2021, 03:44:37 PM
Quote from: TordelBack on 24 February, 2021, 06:35:15 PM
My 93 year old aunt only had her first jab today (thank jovus), so I wouldn't hold your breath.

I thought the boxing gym's were still closed ...    ::)
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Funt Solo on 25 February, 2021, 04:02:21 PM
Quote from: Tjm86 on 25 February, 2021, 03:44:37 PM
Quote from: TordelBack on 24 February, 2021, 06:35:15 PM
My 93 year old aunt only had her first jab today (thank jovus), so I wouldn't hold your breath.

I thought the boxing gym's were still closed ...    ::)

Reminds me of Bill Hicks bit about opportunities in movies for the terminally ill (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HAQDndldjaI).
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Dandontdare on 25 February, 2021, 04:15:25 PM
I had my jab on Saturday - I was surprised to be called so early, but apparently the combination of asthma and angina ticked enough boxes to get me in this group, so I'm a happy bunny.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 25 February, 2021, 07:51:48 PM
My missus came up with a plan for us to stuff our faces until our BMIs get us moved nto a higher-risk cohort. I see no downsides.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 25 February, 2021, 08:06:13 PM
More seriously, our govt are currently running a radio ad every 15 minutes that starts: "It's safe to return to school", before telling us to stay in our 5km and stay away from work and people. Not "we believe the benefits of in-person education outweigh the risks", which would be fair, but literal lying propaganda. No additional ventilation, no extra space or reduced class sizes,  no proper track-and-trace, no antigen tests, and still at 230+ cases/100K, 600+ daily, plus the more contagious variant.

Almost 6 months of lockdown, barring 3 weeks of a Christmas murder spree, and no positive action taken and the same exact lies.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: paddykafka on 25 February, 2021, 08:17:17 PM
Quote from: TordelBack on 25 February, 2021, 07:51:48 PM
My missus came up with a plan for us to stuff our faces until our BMIs get us moved nto a higher-risk cohort. I see no downsides.

Coming soon, the new-look Tordelback in Anger.  :)

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Dc6L3rkXUAIMDvI.jpg
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Funt Solo on 25 February, 2021, 08:28:23 PM
Poor nations delighted to get leftover vaccines after promise by Boris Jo.......... aaaaah f*ck! (https://newsthump.com/2021/02/22/poor-nations-delighted-to-get-leftover-vaccines-after-promise-by-boris-jo-aaaaah-fck/)
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Funt Solo on 26 February, 2021, 11:11:53 PM
In my home state: Covid-19: US high school band students rehearse in individual bubbles (https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-us-canada-56205697)
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 27 February, 2021, 08:32:21 AM
The differences between a political party that gives a shit about its citizens and one that doesn't is repeatedly underscored by the Welsh versus English government.

Yet again, Wales are acting based on SAGE advice, returning kids to school in a careful, phased approach, watching the rate of infection careful, while Johnson is basically just opening the floodgates in England allowing every kid to return pretty much immediately:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-56182131


Meanwhile we STILL have health professionals and epidemiologists screaming from the rooftops that no school mitigation measures have taken place (compulsory mask wearing, properly ventilated classrooms, smaller class sizes etc), so the likelihood of another wave is high as children mix and bring the virus into the wider community.

https://youtu.be/rpJnk1g-098

https://twitter.com/dgurdasani1/status/1362390053029306368?s=21


Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 27 February, 2021, 09:47:30 AM
UK govt is again going for "it's your fault". Not mandating mask use in schools but "hoping" schools, parents and pupils will do the right thing. Last time, our headteacher was forced to write to all parents confirming masks on campus were not compulsory due to idiots complaining. So this is all going to go swimmingly.

Best-case now seems to be one more belated lockdown, probably over part of the summer holiday. Worst case doesn't bear thinking about, involving vaccines not outpacing cases (govt, note, is using *hospitalisations* as primary unlocking data, and they lag by weeks) and more variants arriving that could even make the entire vaccination rollout moot.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 27 February, 2021, 11:07:22 AM
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 27 February, 2021, 09:47:30 AM
UK govt is again going for "it's your fault". Not mandating mask use in schools but "hoping" schools, parents and pupils will do the right thing. Last time, our headteacher was forced to write to all parents confirming masks on campus were not compulsory due to idiots complaining. So this is all going to go swimmingly.

The government should have mandated indoor mask-wearing for under-18s from the outset to normalise it. If you can get the little darlings to put on shoes and a coat, you can get them to put a damn mask on.

Given that masks don't stop you catching covid, they stop you spreading it, every time you go into a supermarket and a parent has a couple of unmasked kids running up and down the aisles, it defeats the point of anyone wearing a mask inside the shop.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Tjm86 on 27 February, 2021, 11:35:15 AM
The thing is, schools are like any other premises.  Owners / management can set out what is worn.  Schools enforce uniform codes.  They should enforce smoking regulations (like to see the little scrotes fined when they are caught smoking on sight just like anyone else would).  They can enforce mask wearing .

Certainly there are exemptions needed, the same as in the adult population.  At the end of the day though, if parents want to kick off for no reason then they can argue their case with a judge in court when they end up being fined for attendance issues.

Ultimately the question of the individual 'human rights' not to wear a mask (and I really do need someone to explain that one to me) just because they don't want to has to be balanced against the risks posed to others by their antisocial attitudes.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: JayzusB.Christ on 27 February, 2021, 12:09:18 PM
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 27 February, 2021, 11:07:22 AM
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 27 February, 2021, 09:47:30 AM
UK govt is again going for "it's your fault". Not mandating mask use in schools but "hoping" schools, parents and pupils will do the right thing. Last time, our headteacher was forced to write to all parents confirming masks on campus were not compulsory due to idiots complaining. So this is all going to go swimmingly.

The government should have mandated indoor mask-wearing for under-18s from the outset to normalise it. If you can get the little darlings to put on shoes and a coat, you can get them to put a damn mask on.

Given that masks don't stop you catching covid, they stop you spreading it, every time you go into a supermarket and a parent has a couple of unmasked kids running up and down the aisles, it defeats the point of anyone wearing a mask inside the shop.

Yes, that does bother me too.  It seems that every time I go into a supermarket there's at least one kid without a mask, and their parents seeming pretty much oblivious to the whole thing.

As for the whole 'human rights' argument - people used to cite this one for motorcycle helmets. Probably still do, but thankfully not many people listen these days.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 27 February, 2021, 01:00:21 PM
Quote from: JayzusB.Christ on 27 February, 2021, 12:09:18 PM
It seems that every time I go into a supermarket there's at least one kid without a mask, and their parents seeming pretty much oblivious to the whole thing.

Parents deserve a share of blame (although there's plenty to go around). "Supervised" kids in shops aside, there are groups of 10-20 tweens and teens wandering around our estate and surrounds constantly, in and out of the shops, never a mask to be seen: where do their parents think they are? 

My missus has tried confronting them, and after the obligatory "we're all from the same household" and more novel "we've all had the vaccine", it's just the familiar torrent of abuse. I've plenty of sympathy with what kids have had to put up with (trying to imagine spending a year of my teens locked in the house with my parents, kerriste) but it can't be helping the cause of getting out of this nightmare.

But then when they are *repeatedly* told by the govt that groups of 30 in the same unventilated classroom are perfectly safe, it's easy to see why their parents don't give a shit what they do.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 27 February, 2021, 01:19:58 PM
Quote from: Tjm86 on 27 February, 2021, 11:35:15 AMThe thing is, schools are like any other premises.  Owners / management can set out what is worn.
That's only true to a certain extent. Our school's head was forced to write to all parents to 'clarify' her previous demand about parents wearing masks at drop-off and pick-up, and state that this wasn't mandatory and instead was voluntary. Enough people had complained over her head. So who is the owner/manager at that point? The LA? Once you're above the headteacher, you're well beyond anything you can seek to influence.

Because the UK government is so gutless, and because it's only made a recommendation, this means the school could 1) only make a request, and 2) state it cannot even do much about people who refuse to comply. (This is the bullshit our local gym came out with when herding parents into a tiny viewing area when our kids were at a gymnastics session, and I complained because only 30% were wearing masks.)

Perhaps things are different elsewhere, but that's the case at least in England. And at secondary schools in particular, this will be a fucking disaster. Again.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Tjm86 on 27 February, 2021, 03:27:15 PM
Quote from: TordelBack on 27 February, 2021, 01:00:21 PM
But then when they are *repeatedly* told by the govt that groups of 30 in the same unventilated classroom are perfectly safe, it's easy to see why their parents don't give a shit what they do.

... but the kids are perfectly safe.  Likely to be asymptomatic carriers, only get mild versions if they do get it all and at present apparently unlikely to get long covid.

Granted anyone that comes within 6 feet of the little sods would be safer taking a cleaning job at Sellafield but then again there isn't much difference between now and pre-Covid days really.

As for how much parents care ... just look at their precious dears 'funny' and watch the fur fly!

IP, that's a fair point actually.  Worse in England with all the Academies I would imagine.  Can't have the parents upset ...

... and yes, at secondary level it is an absolute bloody joke.  In year 10 and 11 when kids have to move to other classrooms for sets they are about as likely to social distance as a stock trader in a strip club.  Never mind trying to square the circle of needing to have properly ventilated classrooms but kids aren't allowed to wear coats even though there is an ice cube in the corner complaining of hypothermia.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 27 February, 2021, 06:54:56 PM
Claiming we don't have to wear masks or go into lockdown because it violates our freedom focuses on individual rights while ignoring our responsibilities. Being a member of a free society means respecting the right of others. Our freedom to behave however we want should be limited if that behavior endangers the health of others.

See also: helmets on motorbikes, seat belts, gun control, smoking bans.

EDIT: sorry, forgot to do the bit where you quote the origiginal poster - I was agreeing with Jazus's post above re 'freedom'.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 28 February, 2021, 10:50:54 AM
Quote from: Tjm86 on 27 February, 2021, 03:27:15 PMat present apparently unlikely to get long covid
Unlikely but not zero. There are cases.

Quote... and yes, at secondary level it is an absolute bloody joke.  In year 10 and 11 when kids have to move to other classrooms
When I was at secondary, class movement began in the first year (now year 7). So we would move between 6–7 rooms per day. COVID doesn't follow the infected—it sits in the air. Things then only get worse. (We had sets from year 8, not year 10.) So for a secondary school, the bubble is effectively the population of the entire school. But then even in primaries, there are risks. If that new variant gets in, it blazes through kids and families, as we saw locally in December.

As for freedoms, I see COVID sceptics now being offered jabs are going with "I was forced to take this jab against my freedoms and beliefs, but I urge you to push back against being jabbed". Because they are arseholes.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Tjm86 on 28 February, 2021, 12:24:16 PM
A lot of comps have restructured school days quite radically.  Kids are taught in forms rather than sets for most year groups.  The exception being exam years (year 10 / 11 ... form 4 / 5 in old money ...).

To further minimise 'risk' lessons are now nearly twice as long and cut down to three a day.  So imagine trying to teach a class of 30 or so kids maths for nearly two hours at a stretch.  You can't go within 2m of the kids to see how they are doing and provide discrete support.  You have to hold the conversation with them from the from of the class.

Then when you've finished with one group you've got to hot-foot it as fast as you can to the next class who will be unsupervised until you get there.

It's not so much during the school day when there is some vague pretence of distancing and bubbling.  Come 3 when the kids are all released in intervals they all end up as one mass a couple of yards from the school gate.

As for anti-vaxxers as arseholes .... yep!
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 28 February, 2021, 01:45:29 PM
I find that bizarre. When I was in the current equivalent of year 9, the people in my form were split across four different bands of maths and French, and three in science and English. Quite how teachers are currently dealing with that, I've no idea then. Also, my school had specialist rooms for every subject, and so that in itself required a certain amount of movement.

As for kids mixing, I see that a lot in town. Our local skate ramp always has young teens on it. In town, you almost never see anyone under 18 wearing a mask anywhere. Mind you, parents are often little better. Last time I took mini-IP to school, I'd say about 10% of parents wore masks on the single-lane 1m-wide path to and from two schools with a total of around 600 kids. I realise risks of infection are greatly reduced outside and in fleeting moments, but when there's the morning crush, I wish people would be more cautious.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 28 February, 2021, 01:46:52 PM
Woah woah woah!! Did I just read 'kids unlikely to get long Covid'?!

That is not the case! According to one of the UKs top epidemiologists, Dr Deepti Gurdasani, the ONS data shows 10%-15% of kids who are infected suffer from Long Covid, a broadly similar percentage to adults.

Listen to her discuss this on BBC 5 Live a couple of weeks back - the figures are startling!

Go from about 17:28

https://youtu.be/eLfHTsrOmJY


The whole 30 minutes is worth a listen to be honest, as she discusses the essential transmission mitigation measures needed in schools, takes down the hollow arguments from a Tory MP, and a colleague who has missed this in the ONS data.


EDIT: Here's more info on Long Covid rates in children from Dr. Christina Pagel, who is on Independent Sage.

https://twitter.com/chrischirp/status/1363473889951637504?s=21


Summary - primary schools kids are twice as likely to bring COVID into the home as adults, secondary school kids seven times as likely to bring COVID into the home than adults, 10% to 15% of children who are infected exhibit Long Covid even if previously asymptomatic, and schools are one of the main ways COVID is transmitted into the wider community.

That is why, without significant transmission mitigation measures in place in schools we are very likely to see children suffering, an increase in the R rate, more deaths in the wider community, and probably another wave/lockdown.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Definitely Not Mister Pops on 28 February, 2021, 02:04:27 PM
To be fairrr, the government has been trying to starve kids to death, so that means less kids getting infected.

Also they're not anti-vax, they're pro-disease.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 28 February, 2021, 03:46:53 PM
Quote from: Mister Pops on 28 February, 2021, 02:04:27 PM

To be fairrr, the government has been trying to starve kids to death, so that means less kids getting infected.

Also they're not anti-vax, they're pro-disease.

That's wrong.

It's fewer kids...   

:-P

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Tjm86 on 28 February, 2021, 08:33:55 PM
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 28 February, 2021, 01:45:29 PM
I find that bizarre. When I was in the current equivalent of year 9, the people in my form were split across four different bands of maths and French, and three in science and English. Quite how teachers are currently dealing with that, I've no idea then. Also, my school had specialist rooms for every subject, and so that in itself required a certain amount of movement.

That's the thing.  At the moment that has gone out the window.  Kids are taught in forms for every subject.  So in year 9 where GCSE work has to start in Maths for instance, you are teaching kids who may be doing any one of three tiers.  Bear in mind that there is material that may only be relevant to kids in one or two tiers quite often.

The schools still have specialist rooms but you may well end up teaching a form every subject in that room.  When you consider the layout of some of these rooms ....  :o

Quote from: shaolin_monkey on 28 February, 2021, 01:46:52 PM
Woah woah woah!! Did I just read 'kids unlikely to get long Covid'?!

No, ... 'less likely' ... however I am willing to defer to the expert cited here.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 28 February, 2021, 09:23:27 PM
My apologies - probably my brain working overtime. But yeah, kids who get Covid are far from safe from long term effects.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 02 March, 2021, 02:14:39 PM
More on Long Covid in kids here:

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/mar/02/long-covid-uk-children-date-cause-concern-scientists-say
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 02 March, 2021, 02:20:44 PM
On the above, note that it's government policy that if a child in class A gets confirmed COVID, that class should isolate (although some schools have triggered this only on a second confirmed case), but the siblings of isolating children are legally mandated to continue going to school—when they will be in different class groups (or possibly different schools).

But, yes, this is all fine.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Tjm86 on 02 March, 2021, 03:25:00 PM
Quote from: shaolin_monkey on 02 March, 2021, 02:14:39 PM
More on Long Covid in kids here:

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/mar/02/long-covid-uk-children-date-cause-concern-scientists-say

Yep, read that one as well.

LSS - data is still equivocal but starting to grow.  I suspect that one problem regarding the impact of Covid on youngsters is that up 'til now priority has been given to adults in testing etc.  If the bairns get it then they just shut them up at home for a spell (or not as the case may be ...)

Some 'expert' was on the Beeb this morning spontificating over the most likely transmission routes for teachers.  Apparently its because teachers are constantly clubbing together in the 'common room' and that's why they keep getting it.

Just goes to show, doesn't it.  I mean, the number of schools that have 'common rooms' for staff ... then the amount of time teachers have to go anywhere near them.  With the current 'covid-insecure' guidelines pretty much everything is done virtually now (staff meetings are now so much more productive on Zoom / Teams ... switch off the camera and get on with something useful instead).  But apparently that's how teachers are coming down with it all the time ...   :o
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 02 March, 2021, 04:44:26 PM
Yeah, it's some real facepalm stuff, eh?

Anyone who has kids knows damn well that even in the non-plague years they infect each other with goodness knows what cold and flu germs, measles, chickenpox etc etc etc etc, giving it to the adults either at school or at home. Kids in schools have ALWAYS been vectors of transmission.

So even without solid data, due to lack of testing or whatever, when I hear anyone suggest it ISN'T coming from the kids it makes me want to scream, and throw my phone through the bloody window.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 02 March, 2021, 04:56:02 PM
Quote from: shaolin_monkey on 02 March, 2021, 04:44:26 PM
Anyone who has kids knows damn well that even in the non-plague years they infect each other with goodness knows what cold and flu germs, measles, chickenpox etc etc etc etc, giving it to the adults either at school or at home. Kids in schools have ALWAYS been vectors of transmission.

So even without solid data, due to lack of testing or whatever, when I hear anyone suggest it ISN'T coming from the kids it makes me want to scream, and throw my phone through the bloody window.

Epidemiologist Dr Deepti Gurdasani (who I'm sure you already follow) has had a lot to say about this subject recently, far too much to meaningfully link to but suffice to say that she is entirely unconvinced by the official line on this, and she's been right about a whole fuckton of stuff in the last year or so. Any forum members also on Twitter who want some clear, informed, expert opinion on this whole covid mess could do worse than add @dgurdasani1 to their follow lists...
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 02 March, 2021, 05:07:20 PM
Number of really bad colds across the entire winter in our house: none. Number of small, short-run bouts of coughing or sneezing: three or four. The kid had the sniffles for about a week too. That is way, WAY below what we usually have.

I really hope if nothing else changes because of COVID, people's attitudes towards illness will. If you're an adult and ill, wear a mask. Also, stay the fuck away from other people if you can. The same with kids. "Don't worry—it's only a head cold" is not OK. Stay off school for a couple of days so it doesn't spread.

But of course, the above also requires support, from employers and others. It's not viable without flexibility, and we all know how flexible the Tories aren't.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 02 March, 2021, 05:18:49 PM
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 02 March, 2021, 05:07:20 PM
Number of really bad colds across the entire winter in our house: none. Number of small, short-run bouts of coughing or sneezing: three or four. The kid had the sniffles for about a week too. That is way, WAY below what we usually have.

Statistician Dr David Spiegelhalter was on R4 today explaining that the falling number of excess deaths will probably see the UK week-by-week number of deaths converge with the five-year average in the very near future, largely due to the almost complete absence of flu fatalities this winter. This is a direct result of the covid distancing/mask wearing/hand washing measures (and also, ironically, because a chunk of the deaths in the summer were elderly care home residents who the winter flu season would probably have seen off anyway).
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Tjm86 on 02 March, 2021, 05:41:54 PM
Quote from: shaolin_monkey on 02 March, 2021, 04:44:26 PM
Anyone who has kids knows damn well that even in the non-plague years they infect each other with goodness knows what cold and flu germs, measles, chickenpox etc etc etc etc, giving it to the adults either at school or at home. Kids in schools have ALWAYS been vectors of transmission.

Aye.  That's why anyone who works in school normally has an immune system so robust it laughs at Ebola!  After a couple of years you've had a run at pretty much anything and everything.

Crimbo before last (just before the pandemic) we went to London and I came down with a hell of a cold for the first time in I don't know how long.  It completely, and I do mean completely, wiped me out.  My wife is still convinced it was Covid even though it was earlier than the official 'release date', so to speak.

On the subject of Prof Spiegelhalter, I would highly recommend his book on stats and his podcast series.  For such an eminent statistician the guy is amazingly clear in his communication.  Ironically it is his passion, risk communication clarity!
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 02 March, 2021, 06:10:31 PM
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 02 March, 2021, 04:56:02 PM

Epidemiologist Dr Deepti Gurdasani (who I'm sure you already follow) has had a lot to say about this subject recently, far too much to meaningfully link to but suffice to say that she is entirely unconvinced by the official line on this, and she's been right about a whole fuckton of stuff in the last year or so. Any forum members also on Twitter who want some clear, informed, expert opinion on this whole covid mess could do worse than add @dgurdasani1 to their follow lists...

Yes indeed! And her segments on TV despite being short are hard hitting!

Here's the 30 mins on BBC 5 live that I posted above, where she is stellar:

https://youtu.be/eLfHTsrOmJY


Here she is again on BBC breakfast, once just herself, and again with a colleague, but both times giving solid info, and all worth a watch:

https://youtu.be/rpJnk1g-098

https://youtu.be/ZEzsRyggFBI

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 02 March, 2021, 06:31:08 PM
That BBC 5 Live show above with Dr Gurdasani? Someone has taken the most crucial parts, edited it to 10 minutes, and turned it into an info cartoon of sorts. It is very good indeed - highly recommended:

https://youtu.be/vAEPTII_r2c
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: The Enigmatic Dr X on 03 March, 2021, 10:27:06 AM
On a shallower note, I've been working from home now for just short of a year.

I am lucky enough to be full time, and busy, but I do miss being in the office. There seems a split between "Returners" and "Homers". What Block are you fighting with?
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Barrington Boots on 03 March, 2021, 10:55:18 AM
Same here, coming up on the anniversary.

I'm surprised how much impact it's had on me - aside from the huge amount of weight I out on and am subsequently trying to work off, it's completely changed my working routine and therefore a lot of other aspects of my day and that's without factoring in all the other changes Covid has made.

I miss some parts the office environment but I don't miss a lot of stuff that went with it - commutes mainly. Part of me would like to remain at home full time, but I do miss interacting with people outside of my little socal bubble. I'd welcome a home / office split in the future.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 03 March, 2021, 11:02:03 AM
I'm with Homers block, with the occasional foray into the office for a four-cred freeze whip and to say hello.

I much prefer working at home. I've just been watching This is Spinal Tap while writing a training course on financial regulation. Not possible in the office!

Plus I don't have to deal with other peoples choice of music anymore. The bloody radio did my head in!! Shite music, interspersed with people talking absolute fucking drivel - it drove me mad! Now I can listen to Iron Maiden and as much classical music as I want.

Plus I don't have to deal with people. I was (technically still am) the department subject matter expert, a referral point, but that meant people would wander up and ask me about ANYTHING - literally the kind of bollocks a 30 second Google would have answered. It got to the point where I'd say "I'll email you the details" and then send them a Let Me Google That For You link. Of the 8 hours in the office I barely got four hours work done 'cos of this.

And how much money have I saved?! No bus fares, no stupidly expensive cups of tea, no canteen that would charge you three loaves of bread for yesterday's dry sandwich, etc etc.

And how much time have I saved?! Not just in terms of being able to do more work, but I've clawed back two hours of my day every day from travel time, and I bloody love it! I wake up at 7.30 and I'm working at 8. I finish my day at 4.30pm and I'm instantly at home. Bloody brilliant! More time with my partner, more time for my own studies - climate science courses, harp etc - more time to read, play games, go for a nice walk etc etc etc. It's magic!

I hope that answers your question. 😄

So, why do you like going to the office then?
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 03 March, 2021, 11:02:49 AM
Having worked for home for 20 years, I'm in the "afford people the flexibility to make decisions that better their lives and properly support them" block. It's a long name and not very catchy, but I hope it wins. I fear it won't.

Most people I know want neither a return to the office nor WFH. They want a mix. Two or three days a week seems to be a sweet spot. But also, plenty of people haven't been well supported. Companies expect them to use their own kit. They don't supply workspaces. They don't care about health and safety nor ergonomics. Companies pushing for WFH also need to figure out how to foster a sense of workplace community.

Personally, I think WFH also provides an opportunity to boost local communities — shift your social circle towards being more local again. But that requires opportunity, services availability and will — and the Tories have massively eroded two of those things. Moreover, it provides the means for workers to be more involved with their own families, if they've young kids. One friend used to commute into London daily and barely saw his daughter. Now, he's home, present and involved with both of his children.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 03 March, 2021, 11:09:28 AM
Agree with the above, and I feel totally blessed to work for a company that quickly supplied its workforce desk, chair, laptop etc etc to get everyone up and running at home ASAP, and is now talking about making that permanent for those who want to - flexible working, a couple of days in, but you don't have to, but equally allowing people to come in all week if they're the type that crave company.

I kind of like other people, but ones I choose to hang out with, not ones I'm forced to endure just 'cos we both have to earn a wage.

As such, I recognise how massively, hugely lucky I am with my workplace, because I know many won't have that choice, haven't had that choice, will never have that choice, and some aren't even employed anymore.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 03 March, 2021, 11:23:17 AM
A company a friend works for has decreed from on high that everyone will have to return as soon as possible. His department is programmers. They're all far more efficient working from home and can work whenever they like. It's all about getting the job done, but a certain kind of middle manager — presumably now fearing for their very existence — wants to see bums on seats from 9 to 5. It's so regressive and needs stamping out.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Barrington Boots on 03 March, 2021, 11:31:43 AM
That's unfortunate and so backwards thinking. I work with a lot of programmers and most of them barely speak to anyone anyway!

My company is fairly progressive - they've happily given us laptops and all the support we need to stay home and have cheerfully been calculating how much they can save by reducing the need for office space, parking spots etc but there's certain old school people at the top who I think can't abide the idea of everyone at home all or even most of the time. We're pushing for two days in / three at home (with the option to come in every day, if so desired) but it remains to be seen really.

Whilst I feel a little cut off from my workmates, the time saved not commuting, and the stress not endured by commuting, is invaluable to me let alone the money saved. And being able to listen to my own music instead of the radio is absolute bliss.

Oversall this feels like a turning point for work attitudes and I'm hoping we take a progressive stance on this in general and companies make the shift.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 03 March, 2021, 11:47:33 AM
I remember the commute for my last 'proper' job. A grand total of 6.5 miles, and it'd take me 50 minutes to drive that distance. (There were no viable public transport options, and you'd only cycle if you liked the notion of dying on those roads.) One day, my manager got wind of this. She knew where I lived and asked me why it took so long. Traffic coming off of the motorway, I said; and if only I could rock up a bit late every day, I could leave the house 45 minutes later and cut my commute to well under 15 minutes. Her immediate response: "Well, why don't you? You often stay late anyway." (She rightly surmised that was down to the same traffic going the other way.)

Then I moved departments. By then, I'd started arriving at around 9:10 every day. I was a web designer back then. It didn't matter a bit when I did the work, as long as it got done—which it did. The tech director one day, angry and possibly hungover, saw me come in and berated me in front of the entire floor. I was called lazy. Told I was setting a bad example for everyone. I shot back that he didn't seem to mind—or even notice—I worked an hour late almost every evening. Cue: a trip to THE OFFICE. My (new) manager backed me up. The director was fuming. I kept my job, but he wanted me in on time every day or there would be consequences. The net result was I worked precisely to my hours, spent a lot more wasted time in my car, and lost all respect for the company.

This was around 2000. I'd hoped attitudes would be more like my old manager by now, but they really aren't. It's insane that the UK is still obsessed with people looking like they're working hard rather than actual productivity. This is the same bullshit that's for decades kept the entire country as one of the least productive of comparable nations and infused a lack of meritocracy. (My wife had something similar. Her desk was a mess at one job, because she had so much to deal with. Her co-worker did less work but her desk was neat, and so she was always praised as being great. No-one checked the data. It was all about appearances.)

Fuck all that. Things need to change. You don't live to work—you work to provide for your life.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: JayzusB.Christ on 03 March, 2021, 12:13:31 PM
Both, in my case.  I used to teach adults in a classroom, and now I teach them on Zoom.  I would be happy with a mix of both, really - the teaching is more effective face-to-face, and it's a much better way of getting to know my students - but I really like not having to commute.  I don't mind being at home, but on the other hand I live on my own in a boat and it's easy to go stir-crazy after a short time.  But I get out now and again for my other job.

I'm also a mural painter and have been very fortunate over the last few months to have had quite a few jobs to do that are not too far away, and where there aren't any other people around.  Even the giant games rooms complex I've been painting for a few months now has been empty apart from me since January.  Before Christmas, there were a few other people working there, including a full-on Covidiot who refused to believe that the coronavirus could kill anyone, and refused to wear a mask.  (He was also in the fake moon landing camp - finally our client explained to him that everyone was laughing at him.)
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Definitely Not Mister Pops on 03 March, 2021, 12:19:54 PM
Quote from: shaolin_monkey on 03 March, 2021, 11:02:03 AM
Plus I don't have to deal with other peoples choice of music anymore. The bloody radio did my head in!! Shite music, interspersed with people talking absolute fucking drivel ...


On the radio or in the office? I would add peoples choice in TV shows here. I don't have to hear people bang on about I'm a Strictly X-factor on Ice or whatever other shite the terrestrial channels spaff out on Saturday nights.

As for people asking dumb questions? I actually got more of this in lockdown. It's my own damn fault, I failed to conceal how tech-savvy I am and became the de facto IT department when people couldn't get through to our clearly overworked, actual IT department.

Quote from: IndigoPrime on 03 March, 2021, 11:23:17 AM
... a certain kind of middle manager — presumably now fearing for their very existence — wants to see bums on seats from 9 to 5.

Had one of these, brought everyone in fulltime in September, and the Covid burned through the office like wildfire. I have made a lateral move since and thankfully my new boss is much keener on working from home, and has informed us that they will be looking into the possible likelihood of investigating whether there's any chance of doing a feasibility study on returning to the office in September, although that might be postponed. The final decision will be made much higher up the food chain, but the union (who were orchestrating a strike before this all kicked off), have made it clear they will be advocating for increased flexibility.

I never had a problem with commuting before all this, but I think a lot of people are waking up to the ballache of it all now. The illusion of a 9-5 working day being just 9-5 is out the window. I have an extra 2-3 hours of free time every day. That's 10-15 extra hours a week. I can enjoy a proper breakfast instead of just shoveling some weetabix into my guts*. I can have a freshly made sandwich at lunch, instead of one that's been sitting in the fridge with slightly stale bread which is also soggy from the tomato juices. I've never needed a full hour lunch break, but now I can take care of some homelife logistics instead of just sitting with my thumb up my arse.

The fly in the ointment however, is that all our systems have been going down for the last two weeks. There are unconfirmed rumours that this is due to a sustained cyber attack, personally I think it's the IT department shutting just stuff down because they're sick of dealing with computer illiterate people.

* I still have my weetabix, but I can savour its blandness now.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 03 March, 2021, 01:01:32 PM
What's notable is how people's work/life balance is often shredded by commuting. That 2–3-hour daily stint is, when you look at it now, fucking insane. Spending 15% or so of your weekday waking life on a train (and getting to/from the station) is nuts. But also, work spills into that time. One company I work with had to tell its staff to work fewer hours, because they'd just merged their commute times with their working days. So even if they were contracted 9–5, they'd do 7:30–6:30, like they were used to. That's your time, not your company's time—unless they pay for it.

One ex-manager also said she quite liked commuting, because it was her 'me' time. She'd tootle on slowly, in her car, listening to her music or her podcasts, free from family life and in her own space. Then she realised: she could keep the same thing anyway—it was being out of the house that was important. So she started 'commuting' to work again, by going for a half-hour run that started and ended at her house. Commuting eradicates such flexibility.

Also, I realise this comes from a place of entitlement. Not everyone has these opportunities. But the point is, many should have them. And by rethinking how we work and how we live, literally millions of lives will be better off in tiny ways.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 03 March, 2021, 01:07:43 PM
I
Quote from: Mister Pops on 03 March, 2021, 12:19:54 PM
Quote from: shaolin_monkey on 03 March, 2021, 11:02:03 AM
Plus I don't have to deal with other peoples choice of music anymore. The bloody radio did my head in!! Shite music, interspersed with people talking absolute fucking drivel ...


On the radio or in the office?


Both, definitely. Some people I liked chatting to because they were witty, articulate, and I could learn a lot from them. Most have nothing in their lives but soaps and reality shows, which may be fine for them, but now I don't have to feign interest.

Also, my workplace is one of those happy clappy places where they try to be fun and cool, which is just not me. I want to get in, work hard, do a good job, get the hell out, and back to my actual life. Although the company has tried very hard to retain that culture at a distance I've been able to duck out of most of it, and I know I'm not the only person breathing a sigh of relief.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Tjm86 on 03 March, 2021, 02:20:41 PM
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 03 March, 2021, 01:01:32 PM
And by rethinking how we work and how we live, literally millions of lives will be better off in tiny ways.

... and this is where we start to merge with the 'warm/wet/cold/hot/what ..' thread ...

My pet hate in the old environmental debate is where there is this incessant debate about how people travel.  What this ignores is that the 'how' is dictated by the 'why' and the 'where.

If you look at school-runners there are a lot of parents who kick their kids out of the car on their way into work.  The same is true at the end of the school day.  The car gets picked over walking / cycling / public transport because of necessity as much as anything else.

A lot of businesses have sold up their city-centre office blocks and moved to 'trading estates' on the outskirts, miles away from communication hubs.  Those old offices have, in turn, been turned into flats.  So now all those staff that used to catch the bus or train in are forced to use their cars.

One of the debates in these parts is about the M4 relief road at Newport.  leaving aside the political arguments, by the time it gets finished traffic will have grown beyond what the new road can take.

So the real question is "why are we spending a fortune on a road that will never be fit for purpose when we should be spending that money growing businesses where people live so that they don't need to drive to Bristol for work."

Simply put, transport is not a transport issue, it's a planning / business / health / education .... issue.
< .... and breeeaaathe ....>
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 03 March, 2021, 02:33:45 PM
Quite. Most of our town's primary schools sit at the far south of a several-miles north-to-south catchment area. A big chunk of the north end was supposed to get a school, but the Tories at the time said they'd instead forever fund a bus service. (I'm sure you can guess what happened there.) The route from those houses goes over a road that leads to the M3 and where a Tory councillor attempting one morning to prove the route was safe for children as young as 4 very nearly got killed by a speeding car.

Elsewhere, we have Tory county councillors fuming that people aren't walking their kids to school, and there have been suggestions to enforce parking bans on all roads nearby. During normal times, my wife would drive to the school, park in a fairly nearby street (about a five-minute walk), drop off the nipper and then continue to work. She'd pick her up on the way back. Quite efficient. The Tory plan is that one of us should walk the 1.5 miles to the school, walk home, and then do the journey again at 3pm. That's quite the assumption about people's free time.

Cycling would of course be faster—approx. a 20-min round-trip for an adult vs. 50-min for a fast walker. But that doesn't entirely work with children who are 4, along roads lacking cycle paths and where commuters have vary curious ideas about what 30mph means. Not that anything's going to change. Our district council pedestrianised half of the high street due to COVID and the Tories went fucking ballistic. Everything got overturned and this one action will likely flip the council in May. Natch, said Tories nonetheless prattle on about "green pathways" around our town. How? How are you going to create those, if you can't even stomach a small area of the high street being pedestrianised? GAH.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 03 March, 2021, 04:05:22 PM
I think I have a picture which sums up everything you've both said, plus the attitude to COVID19, plus the attitude to environmentalism/climate science.

(https://i.imgur.com/cWCjrtg.jpg)
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Funt Solo on 03 March, 2021, 04:42:24 PM
Thread so long now...

Quote from: Steve Green on 06 March, 2020, 10:53:46 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ESaXzXaU0AEIXjL?format=jpg&name=medium)
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: shaolin_monkey on 03 March, 2021, 05:29:32 PM
D'oh!
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: sheridan on 04 March, 2021, 01:21:17 PM
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 03 March, 2021, 11:47:33 AM
This was around 2000. I'd hoped attitudes would be more like my old manager by now, but they really aren't. It's insane that the UK is still obsessed with people looking like they're working hard rather than actual productivity. This is the same bullshit that's for decades kept the entire country as one of the least productive of comparable nations and infused a lack of meritocracy. (My wife had something similar. Her desk was a mess at one job, because she had so much to deal with. Her co-worker did less work but her desk was neat, and so she was always praised as being great. No-one checked the data. It was all about appearances.)


Unfortunately my latest department manager is the same on both respects.  In the midst of the pandemic last year they were intent on getting everybody back in to the office.  Those that were forced (against their will, including at least two with long-standing medical issues) to go in to the office.  They weren't even allowed to concentrate on the two or three things that had to be done in the office, but were instead put on the same rotas as all the WFHers.  Back in the before-times they went around the office late one night and put post-it notes on desks which they felt weren't up to scratch.  To the extent that they wrote out a post-it for a stray staple.  We thought they were joking.  At first.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Definitely Not Mister Pops on 04 March, 2021, 01:42:57 PM
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 03 March, 2021, 02:33:45 PM
Elsewhere, we have Tory county councillors fuming that people aren't walking their kids to school, and there have been suggestions to enforce parking bans on all roads nearby. During normal times, my wife would drive to the school, park in a fairly nearby street (about a five-minute walk), drop off the nipper and then continue to work. She'd pick her up on the way back. Quite efficient. The Tory plan is that one of us should walk the 1.5 miles to the school, walk home, and then do the journey again at 3pm. That's quite the assumption about people's free time.

I think the assumption is probably that it will give the women a chance to get out of their kitchens.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Modern Panther on 05 March, 2021, 10:42:20 PM
Are twitter users across the UK getting targeted ads informing them that Westminster is paying for covid testing, or is this particularly nasty politicisation of the virus limited to Scotland?  Is this 2021's "eat your cereal"?
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Funt Solo on 07 March, 2021, 04:00:38 AM
There's a push in Washington State to get teachers vaccinated to go along with a push to move schools partially back to in-person (as long as Covid numbers remain within parameters) - and I've managed to get set up with an appointment for next Saturday.

That will be one year (almost exactly - it's five days out) from the day when we were sent home from work due to the pandemic.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: JayzusB.Christ on 07 March, 2021, 06:23:29 AM
Good stuff, hope all goes well.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Tjm86 on 07 March, 2021, 07:49:49 AM
Quote from: Funt Solo on 07 March, 2021, 04:00:38 AM
There's a push in Washington State to get teachers vaccinated to go along with a push to move schools partially back to in-person ...

See I get the argument on one level but I have a couple of problems with the whole "we HAVE to get teachers vaccinated" debate ...

1) there are other groups that have been demonstrably shown to be much higher risk;
2) the figures for fatalities / worst case infection in teaching are incredible low;
3) ... mainly because the age profile of the profession is skewed towards the lower age range.

Don't get me wrong, there are older, at risk teachers out there but as a rule the age profile is more towards the 20's/30's age range than the 40+.  As I've repeatedly said:  if you are a male teacher in your 40's and 50's then you are more at risk from management than Covid (and the stats, such as they are, back this up!)
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 07 March, 2021, 10:10:06 AM
What concerns me is that "vaccinate the teachers" is seen by some as a magic bullet. But the bigger issue in schools is children being a general vector and taking COVID home after rapid spread. With 10–15% long COVID numbers, we need parents to also be vaccinated to stop spread. That won't be completed until the summer holidays. I suspect we've one more lockdown to come (or Easter will be extended by a week or more as a circuit breaker).
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 07 March, 2021, 01:21:59 PM
Current Irish plan is to skip vaccinating the 35-55 cohort (aka parents of schoolgoing children) completely, and go straight to the 18-35, on the basis that they have more social contacts, public-facing jobs and shared housing. That makes sense, but leaves school kids going home every day to a completely unvaccinated population.

And still my 78yr old diabetic cancer-patient father, who has to attend three different busy outpatient depts on alternate weeks, hasn't had even a hint of when he might be getting a vaccine.

It wouldn't fill you with optimism generally.



Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: milstar on 07 March, 2021, 03:43:47 PM
http://metro.co.uk/2021/02/25/every-single-prosecution-under-the-coronavirus-act-has-been-unlawful-14143868/amp/

Is this true?
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Funt Solo on 07 March, 2021, 05:51:45 PM
Quote from: Tjm86 on 07 March, 2021, 07:49:49 AM
Quote from: Funt Solo on 07 March, 2021, 04:00:38 AM
There's a push in Washington State to get teachers vaccinated to go along with a push to move schools partially back to in-person ...

See I get the argument on one level but I have a couple of problems with the whole "we HAVE to get teachers vaccinated" debate ...

1) there are other groups that have been demonstrably shown to be much higher risk;
2) the figures for fatalities / worst case infection in teaching are incredible low;
3) ... mainly because the age profile of the profession is skewed towards the lower age range.


I understand your concerns. First of all, I'd say there's no perfect way of dealing with the global pandemic and the current efforts to combat it through vaccination. My wife (a school employee, but not in a high risk group beyond that) got vaccinated earlier than we would have expected through happenstance, really. The local tribe (Tulalip) had spare vaccines that were going to lose their efficacy if they weren't used, so they decided to donate them to the local school district.

As regards the current move to vaccinate all the teachers in Washington State, that's coming after we've had a period of vaccinating the most vulnerable. So, medical staff, the older age groups and those with prevailing medical conditions or in vulnerable groupings (e.g. care homes) have all been offered the vaccine.

The move to get schools back up and running is not a one hundred percent return - it's a hybrid model in which any parent can opt out and still have online support at the same level we currently run. Additionally, there have been months of discussion with teaching unions in order that safety is held as a priority - so it's a planned, phased return with lots of caveats.

Lastly, the entire thing is predicated on current numbers of cases and deaths remaining within parameters that are being decided by health care professionals who are working with the state government in arriving at policy.

I'm sorry if things are shittier at your locale - the entire pandemic is something of a shit-show, and I'd gladly pass up my vaccination if I could help someone more vulnerable get their dose first.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: The Doctor Alt 8 on 09 March, 2021, 04:04:03 PM
Well due to the dreadful situation re distribution of Covid vaccine in Belgium.... it is beginning to look like he will not be able to visit us for the second year. This is not good for various reasons.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 09 March, 2021, 04:25:29 PM
Quote from: Funt Solo on 07 March, 2021, 05:51:45 PMI'm sorry if things are shittier at your locale
A key difference in the UK is the lack of choice. You are legally obliged to send children to school. Even if one of your kids is isolating, the other has to go to school, unless someone in the family is confirmed positive, at which point family isolation kicks in. All of which is neatly incoherent and anti-safety, but there you go.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Definitely Not Mister Pops on 11 March, 2021, 12:19:05 AM
It's crazy how such a small thing has caused so many big problems.
So small that it's been calculated if you gathered all of it together, it would probably fit in a coke can. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVgBjRFSMYs)
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: TordelBack on 11 March, 2021, 12:39:03 PM
Currently listening to the Zoom call preparing my youngest for going back into school,  and I understand how the Hitler Youth worked. Never mind the systematic lies of your government, won't it be nice to wear those smart uniforms and go on lovely marches. Everyone tell the class now how you have no reservations whatsoever and just want to please your leaders. What's that you say small child on the Zoom call in front of all your happy friends,  you're concerned that no-one in your family is vaccinated yet, daily cases and deaths are still sky-high, no changes have been made to the school environment? Nonsense, you're just workshy.

Paraphrased, but not loosely.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: sheridan on 12 March, 2021, 01:28:53 PM
How to get a COVID supply contract (tip - it helps if you live next door to the Health Secretary).
the usual litany of lies, half-truths and corruption (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/11/covid-test-kit-supplier-joked-matt-hancock-whatsapp-never-heard-of-him-alex-bourne)
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Definitely Not Mister Pops on 13 March, 2021, 12:15:25 AM
(https://preview.redd.it/kcl4fxxsbmm61.jpg?width=976&auto=webp&s=c1da6e135c8de2f792aea9571ac7a67138f2fc6b)

To nobody's surprise, the Prime Minister does not know how to use a prophylactic correctly.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Funt Solo on 14 March, 2021, 03:31:31 AM
Well, I got my first shot of a vaccine. I was expecting some side effects but so far nothing. Bill Gates is great, though. Maybe a little sensitivity around the injection site, but nothing to write home about.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: JayzusB.Christ on 14 March, 2021, 10:25:44 AM
Things are very, very slow round these parts, vaccine-wise.  People have fecked up in fine style.

Glad to hear you got yours, though, Funt, and that there haven't been any side effects.  Must be a massive relief all round.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Tjm86 on 14 March, 2021, 10:52:56 AM
Well, having attended our 'training session' for the return to school over the next week or so, I've some good news for those of you worried about the risks of your offspring.

So now face-masks are to be worn by everyone at all times in and out of classes, unless they have a medical exemption.  ... or unless they decide they don't want to because they can't be forced to wear it ... but management will keep telling them to put one on until they decide it is not worth the hassle ...

Please not that this includes teaching staff who are expected to remain socially distanced from all students at all times.

Yes, teachers are now expected to communicate verbally with students at a distance with a face-mask on throughout the session (of nearly two hours at a time).

Students will have a single seating plan for all subjects and assigned desks from which they should not move.  Except for years 10 and 11 (form 4 and 5 in old money) who will continue to move from room to room during the day for options.

Oh, and having spent the day at the same desk to ensure that the school has a clear idea of who they are seated by at any time, students will line up in whatever order they want at the end of breaks, walk up and down corridors with anyone (but they are wearing masks ... except if they don't want to ... or they have an exemption ...)

As always the regulations are a mass of contradictions and loopholes.   :o :-\
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: JayzusB.Christ on 17 March, 2021, 01:05:47 PM
One of my brothers is vaccinated; the other isn't.  The latter's manager felt 'feverish' in his own words but decided to come to work anyway, interacting with all the other staff, before going home early sick.  Test results aren't in yet, but it's not looking good for everyone that works there.  It's an animal sanctuary, so there may well be a lot of animals going unfed for weeks.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 28 March, 2021, 05:58:54 PM
Lasting immunity found after recovery from COVID-19. (https://www.nih.gov/news-events/nih-research-matters/lasting-immunity-found-after-recovery-covid-19)
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 28 March, 2021, 06:47:41 PM
Although lasting in these cases currently means up to eight months. Long-term, we are likely to be in for booster jabs forever.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Funt Solo on 28 March, 2021, 07:12:15 PM
Great news, though - it suggests that vaccines (or, getting it and surviving) can be of real (at least) medium-term benefit. There had been worries, earlier in the pandemic, that reinfection could pose a serious short-term risk.

Still unknown (AFAIK) is whether a vaccinated person can still be a carrier & transmitter.

Safest approach for everyone is still: get vaccinated.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: JayzusB.Christ on 28 March, 2021, 07:34:10 PM
My elderly parents' next-door neighbour is an ambulance worker, and has had the virus twice in the space of eight months.  (Worryingly, he had a chat with my folks over the garden wall the first time around, and neglected to tell them he was infected and thus putting them in danger.)

So yeah: The quicker we all get vaccinated the quicker we'll be out of this mess.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 28 March, 2021, 08:27:39 PM
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 28 March, 2021, 06:47:41 PM
Although lasting in these cases currently means up to eight months. Long-term, we are likely to be in for booster jabs forever.

Well, no. The article states,

"Virus-specific B cells increased over time.
People had more memory B cells six months
after symptom onset than at one month
afterwards. Although the number of these cells
appeared to reach a plateau after a few
months, levels didn't decline over the period
studied."

The antibodies will naturally decrease as the need for them subsides, but the cells tasked with remembering how to build them remain should the war break out again. This is what happens naturally, it is hoped the vaccine will have the same effect.

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Robin Low on 28 March, 2021, 08:52:12 PM
Quote from: The Legendary Shark on 28 March, 2021, 08:27:39 PM

The antibodies will naturally decrease as the need for them subsides, but the cells tasked with remembering how to build them remain should the war break out again.

Which might be fine just so long as the virus doesn't mutate, which it's doing all the time, because that's what viruses do. This why we repeatedly get colds, why new flu jabs are offered every year and why there'll probably be new covid jabs every year too.

Also, it depends on surviving Covid in the first place, which quite a few people have sadly failed to do.

Regards

Robin
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Professor Bear on 28 March, 2021, 09:06:07 PM
Considering the trouble getting the vaccine rolled out atm, I wouldn't have much faith in the establishment of a booster regimen for the entire country (even if you could get everyone to submit to such a thing).  I suspect that older patients will get a jab as usual, but the rest will be left to fight it off and eventually we'll be conditioned to think of the extra thousand deaths a year as the new normal.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: JayzusB.Christ on 28 March, 2021, 09:21:23 PM
Quote from: JayzusB.Christ on 28 March, 2021, 07:34:10 PM
My elderly parents' next-door neighbour is an ambulance worker, and has had the virus twice in the space of eight months.

Sorry to quote myself, but I suppose there are four possibilities here:  1) I'm lying. 2) My parents are lying.  3) My parents' neighbour is lying. 4)  Natural immunity isn't enough to keep you safe.

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 28 March, 2021, 09:22:41 PM

Well, yes, viruses mutate all the time, swapping genetic material between themselves and other viruses and themselves and their hosts in a process of horizontal gene transfer. They are a marvel of adaptation, a malleable organism. They can mutate into more deadly forms or into more benign ones, as did syphilis and scarlet fever, whose historical forms were far more destructive than modern versions.

And if viruses are impressive, then our immune systems are even more so. They deal with these ever-shifting invaders as a matter of course. Do they need a helping hand sometimes? Sure. Do I think mine needs one right now? Well, that's my decision to make.

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 28 March, 2021, 09:32:09 PM

Sorry, JBC - I didn't mean to ignore your point.

One study can't cover everybody and some people will get the virus twice, or two viruses once (and a medic must consider this possibility, being exposed to more viruses than most).

I don't think you or anybody you mention is lying. Even the article I linked to did not find a 100% adherence to this pattern, so exceptions are logically, statistically, and practically very probable.

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: JayzusB.Christ on 28 March, 2021, 09:45:55 PM
Quote from: The Legendary Shark on 28 March, 2021, 09:32:09 PM

Sorry, JBC - I didn't mean to ignore your point.

One study can't cover everybody and some people will get the virus twice, or two viruses once (and a medic must consider this possibility, being exposed to more viruses than most).

I don't think you or anybody you mention is lying. Even the article I linked to did not find a 100% adherence to this pattern, so exceptions are logically, statistically, and practically very probable.

Fair enough.  We're agreed on that point at least.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Funt Solo on 28 March, 2021, 09:54:50 PM
Quote from: JayzusB.Christ on 28 March, 2021, 09:21:23 PM
Quote from: JayzusB.Christ on 28 March, 2021, 07:34:10 PM
My elderly parents' next-door neighbour is an ambulance worker, and has had the virus twice in the space of eight months.

Sorry to quote myself, but I suppose there are four possibilities here:  1) I'm lying. 2) My parents are lying.  3) My parents' neighbour is lying. 4)  Natural immunity isn't enough to keep you safe.

It's in all probability (4) - natural antibodies (through virus contraction) keep us safer (especially after the body has some time to get it's shit together - something like three months after getting it), but they naturally don't provide a 100% shield. Plus, just catching it on purpose (the "herd immunity" approach) runs the double-risk of allowing it to mutate further, and of killing you. Ha!

The vaccine also doesn't offer a 100% shield, but (as those clever pandemic experts keep pointing out) does offer a method of controlling the spread of the virus, lowering the chance of mutations as we lower the spread. Plus - it doesn't kill you. Ha!

Choosing not to get vaccinated because "God built us sturdy" is noodly-cabbage thinking from the mad hatter brigade, I'm sorry to say.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: JayzusB.Christ on 28 March, 2021, 11:20:09 PM
Coincidentally, I've just been listening to Michael Palin reading his audiobook version of Erebus, where it was mentioned that the smallpox vaccine was developed in 1798!  I had no idea we'd been using vaccines for so long.   (Also, a quick look at Wikipedia tells me that smallpox was eliminated completely in the 20th century. Nice work, conventional medicine!)
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Funt Solo on 29 March, 2021, 01:04:49 AM
C4 News did a report (https://www.channel4.com/news/covid-rates-in-central-europe-are-among-the-highest-in-the-world-as-third-wave-hits) today where they pointed out the difference (in new cases) between the UK (with its relatively good vaccine roll-out figures) and EU countries (which are struggling to match those vaccination numbers).

This chart rather neatly demonstrates what's happening:
(https://i.imgur.com/SU29JlA.png)


Of course, if there were no vaccine - and we simply had to rely on our natural immune system, these figures would be far worse. Obviously.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Definitely Not Mister Pops on 29 March, 2021, 01:21:23 AM
Where did you find that chart? The scaling on the x-axis looks a bit screwy.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Funt Solo on 29 March, 2021, 03:08:50 AM
It's a freeze frame off the C4 News report I linked to. The x-axis is not uniformly scaled, no. Even if it were, though, the general theme remains the same, no?
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 29 March, 2021, 07:05:07 AM
Quote from: Funt Solo on 29 March, 2021, 01:04:49 AM
Of course, if there were no vaccine - and we simply had to rely on our natural immune system, these figures would be far worse. Obviously.

This is one of the many things I struggle to process in the largely free pass this government has received over its handling of this pandemic: the many months where "herd immunity" was its explicit, and then clearly its implicit, entire strategy for handling covid.

In the absence of a vaccine, "herd immunity" means: "everyone gets it, and everyone who is likely to die from it, dies. Once they're all dead, the remaining herd is immune."

That was it. For months. The government's strategy, for want of a better word, was to let ~0.5-1M people just die. That's not incompetence, that's actual evil.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Definitely Not Mister Pops on 29 March, 2021, 09:50:57 AM
Quote from: Funt Solo on 29 March, 2021, 03:08:50 AM
It's a freeze frame off the C4 News report I linked to. The x-axis is not uniformly scaled, no. Even if it were, though, the general theme remains the same, no?

Well my point is, it's difficult to say. The scale on the x-axis is just a load of random dates, unevenly spaced, and that would be ok if they were dates that marked some significant change in trends, but that's not the case. On top of that, it doesn't look like the scale is consistent. Maybe it is? It's difficult to tell because it's just a load of random dates, unevenly spaced. On top of that, the plots are way more granular than the scale of the x-axis. And if they got one axis wrong, then that casts its perpendicular partner in a dubious light too.

If this was a graph on Fox, attempting to discredit ***reviews Fox agenda*** reality, would you just accept its general theme?

It looks like it was slapped together by a graphic designer, rather than plotted out by someone who had looked at the data and understood how a graph works. For me the information there has no value. It's a piss poor graph, a worthless data-visualisation and I don't think you should just ignore that, and accept what it's (poorly) trying to tell you just because it confirms your bias.

The general theme here is, if I was a maths teacher, my pupils would fuckin' hate me.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Tjm86 on 29 March, 2021, 11:15:53 AM
Quote from: Mister Pops on 29 March, 2021, 09:50:57 AM
For me the information there has no value. It's a piss poor graph, a worthless data-visualisation and I don't think you should just ignore that, and accept what it's (poorly) trying to tell you just because it confirms your bias.

The general theme here is, if I was a maths teacher, my pupils would fuckin' hate me.

Well, speaking as a Maths teacher,  I f***ing hate it!  Media graph presentation and interpretation is generally poorer than the weakest year 7 student's efforts by a mile. 

One thing about the last year has been the increasing prominence of the likes of Spiegelhalter with efforts to educate journalists.  Unfortunately it is a massive job!
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Tiplodocus on 29 March, 2021, 11:19:36 AM
 Looks ok to me. It's mostly 20 day intervals which seem consistent but last interval is correspondingly larger for the larger date range. I think.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 29 March, 2021, 11:39:45 AM
Even looking at the raw numbers, I suspect many journalists are missing the point about the severity of lockdowns being out of step. Expect EU numbers to drop now they're locking down again and ours to continue to rise now we're moving beyond just schools being open.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Definitely Not Mister Pops on 29 March, 2021, 12:28:02 PM
Quote from: Tiplodocus on 29 March, 2021, 11:19:36 AM
Looks ok to me. It's mostly 20 day intervals which seem consistent but last interval is correspondingly larger for the larger date range. I think.

Well this is my point, it looks OK. The intervals are 17 days, 20, 20 then 31. 88 days in total, why not have regular 22 day intervals? Is there significance to those specific dates? Again, they don't seem to pinpoint any significant change in trends in the UK or any of the other 5 countries. Why were just those five countries chosen to represent the rest of Europe?

So we have poor formatting and perhaps cherry picking?

I actually went and watched the report Funt took this from and the graph is only on screen for about four seconds. It was definitely not intended to be scrutinized to this extent. I'm not even disputing the basic thrust of the report, but if the headline on the graph was

"england do gooder then other europ country's"

I doubt many would let that slide. We expect a certain amount of competence in English communication from our media, but allow poor standards for Maths and Science communication. The last year has shown how important this is.

There, I think I dragged that back on topic.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Professor Bear on 29 March, 2021, 01:29:31 PM
Quote from: Funt Solo on 29 March, 2021, 01:04:49 AMOf course, if there were no vaccine - and we simply had to rely on our natural immune system, these figures would be far worse. Obviously.

I can't help but feel that it probably says a great deal if the next step down from the government's actual response is "doing literally nothing".

Which, it goes without saying, they also failed at doing the moment they took any action at all, since the concept of "herd immunity" relies on the government doing nothing and letting the virus run its course, so... they even fucked this up by their own bullshit standards of logic.  I am pretty sure this means there isn't any possible timeline where they didn't fuck this.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Funt Solo on 29 March, 2021, 02:42:49 PM
Quote from: Mister Pops on 29 March, 2021, 09:50:57 AM
just because it confirms your bias.

Catch yourself on. Look, I'm not your fucking research monkey, but chart (https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/world/europe/united-kingdom-coronavirus-cases.html). And chart (https://graphics.reuters.com/world-coronavirus-tracker-and-maps/countries-and-territories/united-kingdom/).

Take your bias accusation and look in a mirror.

My ONLY point in posting on this thread was to point out WHAT ALL THE SCIENTISTS AGREE ON (i.e. vaccine better than our immune system at tackling pandemic) in order to undermine our resident anti-vaccine nutter - who keeps trying to satisfy his obvious bias by (carefully) promoting an anti-vax agenda.

C4 News - I'm a consumer, but I don't always agree with their reporting. The UK government - I do hate the Tories and much of what they stand for and do - but that doesn't mean that they do everything wrong. And I was surprised by what that chart demonstrated - because I didn't have a preconceived notion of how the numbers looked in the UK vs. those other countries.

Summary: vaccine better than our immune system at tackling pandemic.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Definitely Not Mister Pops on 29 March, 2021, 04:16:49 PM
Quote from: Funt Solo on 29 March, 2021, 02:42:49 PM
Quote from: Mister Pops on 29 March, 2021, 09:50:57 AM
just because it confirms your bias.

Catch yourself on. Look, I'm not your fucking research monkey, but chart (https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/world/europe/united-kingdom-coronavirus-cases.html). And chart (https://graphics.reuters.com/world-coronavirus-tracker-and-maps/countries-and-territories/united-kingdom/).

Take your bias accusation and look in a mirror.

My ONLY point in posting on this thread was to point out WHAT ALL THE SCIENTISTS AGREE ON (i.e. vaccine better than our immune system at tackling pandemic) in order to undermine our resident anti-vaccine nutter - who keeps trying to satisfy his obvious bias by (carefully) promoting an anti-vax agenda.

I was typing out an equally aggro reply, but then the image a research monkey in a wee lab coat and safety goggles came into my head and my heart melted.

I wasn't referring to you specifically Funt, I was using you in the plural form. The royal you? I don't need to look in a mirror because everyone has bias, and scrutinizing information that you* agree with is just as important as debunking that which you know to be false.

And sometimes you just have to point out that some fecker is stealing a living producing graphs for channel four news that would fail a GCSE maths question. The easy first part of the question at that.

To prove I did not mean to cause any turmoil for you, I shall now make a statement what I view as so bleedin' obvious, trivial and uncontroversial I don't believe I have to make it:

Vaccines help eradicate disease.

I am also willing to admit that the tories have done a good job rolling out the vaccine, but my bias kicks in and tells me that's because it was the only thing they seriously put any effort into, anyone who died in the interim just should have had a better immune system.

Yes that was me actually trying to not be snarky.

I've just realised that my mental image was of a chimp in a labcoat and goggles, not a monkey.

And he had a bow-tie.

*plural
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Funt Solo on 29 March, 2021, 04:43:40 PM
Well, I'm also in love with the monkey. Or the chimp. Or any simian that'll have me, frankly.

Sorry for being overly defensive.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: The Mind of Wolfie Smith on 29 March, 2021, 07:59:45 PM
always expected orban to take the lead at some point in this horror (and do recall that his borders have been pretty much sealed off for a long time).
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Leigh S on 29 March, 2021, 08:59:08 PM
Not to twisted up with that x axis - I presume the dates have been chosen for some specific reason that wasnt evident in the final report - they are spaced out in proportion to the gaps, that's all that matters to me.

AS for vaccines vs herd immunity, let me tell you the tale of how I reckon I caught this fucker back in March - so mild I didnt know I had it until my sense of smell returned sometime a month or so after.   Over the course of the Summer I hae felt low level crap, to the degree I've been mithering my GP and having my self a scan or two due to a weird throaaty/reflux wheeziness/discomfort....didnt restirt my exercise, just didn't feel "right"

Got my jab last Thursday and since, I have been significantly better with just a mild tickling niggle rather than the almost always naggng feeling I had had up to then...

Short story - get a sodding jab!
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 29 March, 2021, 10:09:35 PM

Quote from: Funt Solo on 29 March, 2021, 02:42:49 PM


Take your bias accusation and look in a mirror.

My ONLY point in posting on this thread was to point out WHAT ALL THE SCIENTISTS AGREE ON


That's not a scientific statement. That's about one molecule this side of religious dogma. "Trust the scientists" is beginning to sound an awful lot like "trust the priests."

Plenty of scientists disagree - like the ones who got ridiculed and even fired for suggesting that ventilators often made things worse, which it turns out they did. Government scientists, mainly administrators, said one thing and front-line scientists (doctors) said another - but the ones standing next to Donald Trump were believed - at the cost of many lives.

Plenty of scientists are concerned that this current rush to vaccinate the majority of the planet's population with a vaccine that isn't only new but of a completely new type is dangerous and irresponsible. Plenty of scientists are concerned that this new type of vaccine hasn't been tested on children, adults, the elderly, the chronically ill, or pregnant women. But the scientists standing next to Boris (or offering in absentia moral support from Barnard Castle) say it's all safe and nothing to worry about. I know which scientists I think it's worthwhile listening to, as do you.

So, trust the science - yes, absolutely. Trust the scientist? Depends on the scientist, doesn't it?

I don't think that makes me an anti-vaxxer. Indeed, ever since the first European doctors witnessed the ancient Chinese method of blowing dried cow pus up people's noses to inoculate them and brought that knowledge home, the method has indeed saved countless lives and I'm all for that.

But now billions upon billions of dollars are involved. It's not just about saving lives any more, it's about profit as well. Lots of profit. Enough to fill countless brown envelopes - and we all know how fond of fat brown envelopes our trustworthy and humanitarian parliamentary representatives are.

Anti-vaxxer? No. Anti-overvaxxer? Absolutely.

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Leigh S on 29 March, 2021, 10:33:03 PM
Assuming that your supposition re scientists being more interested in cash than actually tackling the disease, which even if true, wel yes - money, duh!  Your alternative solution is.... note you are on the clock here as doing nothing is definitely killing those vulnerable people.

Quote from: The Legendary Shark on 29 March, 2021, 10:09:35 PM

Quote from: Funt Solo on 29 March, 2021, 02:42:49 PM


Take your bias accusation and look in a mirror.

My ONLY point in posting on this thread was to point out WHAT ALL THE SCIENTISTS AGREE ON


That's not a scientific statement. That's about one molecule this side of religious dogma. "Trust the scientists" is beginning to sound an awful lot like "trust the priests."

Plenty of scientists disagree - like the ones who got ridiculed and even fired for suggesting that ventilators often made things worse, which it turns out they did. Government scientists, mainly administrators, said one thing and front-line scientists (doctors) said another - but the ones standing next to Donald Trump were believed - at the cost of many lives.

Plenty of scientists are concerned that this current rush to vaccinate the majority of the planet's population with a vaccine that isn't only new but of a completely new type is dangerous and irresponsible. Plenty of scientists are concerned that this new type of vaccine hasn't been tested on children, adults, the elderly, the chronically ill, or pregnant women. But the scientists standing next to Boris (or offering in absentia moral support from Barnard Castle) say it's all safe and nothing to worry about. I know which scientists I think it's worthwhile listening to, as do you.

So, trust the science - yes, absolutely. Trust the scientist? Depends on the scientist, doesn't it?

I don't think that makes me an anti-vaxxer. Indeed, ever since the first European doctors witnessed the ancient Chinese method of blowing dried cow pus up people's noses to inoculate them and brought that knowledge home, the method has indeed saved countless lives and I'm all for that.

But now billions upon billions of dollars are involved. It's not just about saving lives any more, it's about profit as well. Lots of profit. Enough to fill countless brown envelopes - and we all know how fond of fat brown envelopes our trustworthy and humanitarian parliamentary representatives are.

Anti-vaxxer? No. Anti-overvaxxer? Absolutely.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 29 March, 2021, 10:48:53 PM
The point with science is that it's always the best response at the time. But it evolves. With COVID, we have effectively seen science in fast-forward. Lots of people are freaking out about the vaccines, not recognising that we've seen typical creation processes that have just been streamlined to the nth degree due to a fuck-ton of money going into COVID research, because it has paused half of the planet and had the potential to wipe out—at the very least—70 million people.

The notion that plenty of scientists are against vaccination is just not the case. It's fringe anti-vaxx rot. Concern relating to children is on the basis we'd ideally want to be vaccinating children now. Guess what? Tests are ongoing. It will happen—but not until it's deemed safe enough.

As for "anti-overvaxxer", that has more than a whiff of Andrew Wakefield about it, and we all know how that turned out.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: The Enigmatic Dr X on 29 March, 2021, 10:53:18 PM
It is of course any person's right to refuse a vaccine.

In the same way that anyone can choose to be selfish.

Should someone decline, and then fall ill with COVID, would they feel guilty taking up treatment? Should they be treated?

This is not about civil liberties. This about global health.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Funt Solo on 29 March, 2021, 10:55:03 PM
"WHAT ALL THE SCIENTISTS AGREE ON" was hyperbolic shorthand for scientific consensus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_consensus).

At this point, though, I just have to trust the majority of people reading here won't be taken in by any (more) anti-vax rhetoric.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: von Boom on 29 March, 2021, 11:35:11 PM
I usually try very hard to accept a person's beliefs but in this case I think everyone must be vaccinated. For the anti-vaxxers I would track them down like animals and use a tranquilizer gun to give them the jab.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 30 March, 2021, 07:59:07 AM
Quote from: Funt Solo on 29 March, 2021, 10:55:03 PM

scientific consensus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_consensus).



Which states:

"In public policy debates, the assertion that
there exists a consensus of scientists in a
particular field is often used as an argument
for the validity of a theory and as support for a
course of action by those who stand to gain
from a policy based on that consensus."


Quote from: Leigh S on 29 March, 2021, 10:33:03 PM

Assuming that your supposition re scientists being more interested in cash than actually tackling the disease, which even if true, wel yes - money, duh!  Your alternative solution is....


First, some scientists are more interested in cash, not all. Second, my solution is... Pay attention to the science.

As an example, where politicians are using the Excess Deaths figure as an object of fear, a scientist would examine some of this number's other functions, such as years of life lost per excess deaths. The highest figure I've seen for this is 11 years, but this was from a "brute force" analysis collating all deaths mentioning COVID. A more refined analysis gave out six years and the lowest figure I've seen, coming from a statistician claiming even more accuracy separating death from COVID and death with COVID, is one year of life lost per excess death.

As the YLL per ED is so low, it indicates that the majority of excess deaths are being suffered by people in their last decade of life - or even their final year if that last figure is accurate.

My solution based on this science - protect the old and infirm, otherwise carry on as normal.

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: JayzusB.Christ on 30 March, 2021, 08:13:29 AM
Exactly what Johnson was proposing this time last year.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Colin YNWA on 30 March, 2021, 08:16:20 AM
Quote from: The Legendary Shark on 30 March, 2021, 07:59:07 AM
My solution based on this science - protect the old and infirm, otherwise carry on as normal.

An arguement that loses all credibility as the way to protect the old and infirm is to restrict the spread of the disease in its entirety which means restrictions for all.

Well unless you propose clearing say the Isle of White - can identify and dump all the 'old and infirm' there - if the odd one or two die on the way who cares they'd have been dead in a year or two anyway - just look at the stats not then actual humans involved - and then we have the rest of the country to do as we please with - PARTY!!!!

Heck we can use the Isle of Man as a place to stash others with illness that makes them more vulnerable to Covid - though they might get upperity about their sovereignty so we might be best using Anglesey instead?

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Leigh S on 30 March, 2021, 08:49:07 AM
Well, yes Colin, all reasonable arguments... but thinking like that doesn#t allow us to not be inconvenienced by havng to moderate our own behaviour.  As ever Sharky, your altruism always seems to circle back to "let me do what I want".  It's not really those pregnant/elderly/children/vulnerable people you care about - it's someone telling you what to do.

If it really WAS money that was behind all this, you think shutting down the entire economy is a good way for those evil scientists and politicians (of all political stripes) to achieve that?

And the Politicians who did lean your way, with their herd immunity arguments, did they protect more people or less? (answer: less, by some degree)  And they did it against the advice of those scientists you profess to believe in.  It seemss that curiously it's only the ones whose conclusions are the least impactful on yourself that you think should be believed.

Simultaneously, in Post Government SharkWorld, we have learnt that everybody will spontaneously make the right choices for their communities and not be selfish at all and just look after each other.  I assume if the vaccine had been developed by the local GP (sll local GPs would ahve been tasked with developing their own vaccine), and no one was putting any pressure on you to take it, you'd be first in the queue.

But yeah,this is only the real world, so fuck old people, they can fend for themselves - if they catch it, it is their fault for leaving their house. Heck most of them arent even really dead, it's just Statistics, man, making it look like they are.

Quote from: Colin YNWA on 30 March, 2021, 08:16:20 AM
Quote from: The Legendary Shark on 30 March, 2021, 07:59:07 AM
My solution based on this science - protect the old and infirm, otherwise carry on as normal.

An arguement that loses all credibility as the way to protect the old and infirm is to restrict the spread of the disease in its entirety which means restrictions for all.

Well unless you propose clearing say the Isle of White - can identify and dump all the 'old and infirm' there - if the odd one or two die on the way who cares they'd have been dead in a year or two anyway - just look at the stats not then actual humans involved - and then we have the rest of the country to do as we please with - PARTY!!!!

Heck we can use the Isle of Man as a place to stash others with illness that makes them more vulnerable to Covid - though they might get upperity about their sovereignty so we might be best using Anglesey instead?
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Mikey on 30 March, 2021, 08:56:06 AM
Quote from: Funt Solo on 29 March, 2021, 10:55:03 PM
"WHAT ALL THE SCIENTISTS AGREE ON" was hyperbolic shorthand for scientific consensus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_consensus).

At this point, though, I just have to trust the majority of people reading here won't be taken in by any (more) anti-vax rhetoric.

I admire your persistence here Funt, but in my experience it's a waste of pixels. You'll only be accused of appeal to authority, to those wealthy and influential scientists, many of whom are technicians doing the actual practical lab work during this pandemic.They don't make as much as field staff gathering evidence for climate change, but it's still in the millions I imagine.

If only they'd supply the vaccines at cost.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 30 March, 2021, 09:51:25 AM
Having read that last Shark post, I'm almost speechless. Then again, there is that weird place in the political spectrum where you realise the vast gulf between liberal and libertarian thinking. The notion of "protect the old and infirm, otherwise carry on as normal" is scientifically incoherent and astonishingly callous. Carry on as normal while, what, COVID blazes through the entire population, leaving hospitals overwhelmed, many thousands more dead, and probably six or seven million people with long COVID and a good chunk of them with permanent health problems? Right. And given that the virus would mutate at speed, the old and infirm wouldn't be protected anyway, unless fully separated and sealed off from the world, which doesn't seem like any way to life. I don't even.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Definitely Not Mister Pops on 30 March, 2021, 10:08:23 AM
Sure those old and infirm people would be dead in ten years anyway. Who among us would even be bothered to keep on living if we found out we only had a decade left?
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Jim_Campbell on 30 March, 2021, 10:12:16 AM
Quote from: Mister Pops on 30 March, 2021, 10:08:23 AM
Sure those old and infirm people would be dead in ten years anyway. Who among us would even be bothered to keep on living if we found out we only had a decade left?

My favourite response to this absolutely terrible attitude to covid was: "If you exclude people with pre-existing conditions, Harold Shipman didn't kill anyone."
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: The Legendary Shark on 30 March, 2021, 10:30:04 AM

Wow.

The statistics - from trained scientists (or nutters, in your (the "royal" you) view) - point to a much greater vulnerability for the old and infirm, so that makes me heartless? The only solution is to lock everyone down, destroy countless small businesses (thus concentrating consumers more and more towards big businesses), spread fear and misinformation, force everyone to take an experimental mRNA vaccine whose safety precautions have been replaced with the much more scientific political Warp Speed, and all that?

All the money that's been spent or lost, all the people acting to ease the situation (or profit from it), all those resources - in my view they'd be better employed protecting the most vulnerable. (Which, apparently, can only be done by herding people (presumably in cattle trucks) to an island somewhere to die out of sight of the rest of us.) Why not put a soldier, constable or volunteer on the door of every care home to uphold quarantine practices? I bet even such an unwieldy plan would be cheaper than devastating the economy. But no, send them off to die because they're old and useless - that's all you can come up with?

As I said at the start of all this, COVID certainly isn't nothing and poses a very real danger to some sections of society, but it does not pose the same level of danger to everyone.
Sorry, but the politics bears little relation to the science.

Anyway, look on the bright side - the dose I refused will be available to save the life of someone more worthy. If they live and I die then that's a fair swap, even I can see that. But I'm not going to risk my already questionable health on the word of Boris Johnson and his hand-picked experts.

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Definitely Not Mister Pops on 30 March, 2021, 10:44:31 AM
Are you referring to a different Boris Johnson? You can't think anyone here trusts the prime minister Boris Johnson, and are basing their views on his, so you must be talking about a different Boris Johnson I haven't heard about.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: IndigoPrime on 30 March, 2021, 10:45:56 AM
Quote from: The Legendary Shark on 30 March, 2021, 10:30:04 AMThe statistics - from trained scientists (or nutters, in your (the "royal" you) view) - point to a much greater vulnerability for the old and infirm, so that makes me heartless?
They are at greater risk of death, yes. But everyone else's risk goes up as well if the health services are overwhelmed (which is what would happen if you went full herd immunity and only protected the "old and infirm"). This disease is not picky. It will go for a wide range of people. It will leave one in ten with long-term health problems and a significant number effectively disabled. I know plenty of people who pre-COVID were fit and health. Now? Not so much.

QuoteThe only solution is to lock everyone down, destroy countless small businesses (thus concentrating consumers more and more towards big businesses), spread fear and misinformation, force everyone to take an experimental mRNA vaccine whose safety precautions have been replaced with the much more scientific political Warp Speed, and all that?
No. This is just bullshit. This is the kind of rot you'd see from full-on anti-vaxx. In fact, this is quite literal misinformation. The vaccine is not experimental. In fact, it's not one vaccine—we have several solutions to a disease problem, approaching it in different ways. This is science in fast forward, sure, but only because resources were thrown at it in a manner unseen in modern history. That doesn't mean a few boffins in a lab fucked around for a bit and said "that'll do". So much effort went into this, precisely because of the clear and imminent danger to the entire planet.

Arguably, this is what should happen elsewhere. I suspect a lot of eyes have been woken up to "well, why haven't we dealt with X or Y better then?" Flu is an excellent example in the west. But to suggest this is some half-arsed thing just thrown out there without regard for safety is just outright wrong.

Quoteprotecting the most vulnerable
OK, then: how? You've responded to this point a few times in a snarky manner. So how do you "protect the vulnerable" in your world where we immediately open everything back up and, presumably, radically reduce the number of people having the vaccine?

QuoteBut no, send them off to die because they're old and useless - that's all you can come up with?
Shark, your plan so far is quite literally radically increasing their risk of death.

QuoteAs I said at the start of all this, COVID certainly isn't nothing and poses a very real danger to some sections of society, but it does not pose the same level of danger to everyone.
This, at least, is correct. You are much less likely to die from COVID if you're 20 than if you're 40. And you're less likely to die of it at 40 than 60. And so on. But, again, let it run through the population and, according to even the most optimistic statistics out there, you're talking 3.5 million Brits with long COVID. Averages are more like 7 million. A significant number of them will have permanent disability, from something that was probably avoidable, if we just have a bit of patience and ensure people are vaccinated.

And THAT is why I described your thinking about this as callous.

QuoteAnyway, look on the bright side - the dose I refused will be available to save the life of someone more worthy. If they live and I die then that's a fair swap, even I can see that.
Only vaccine-based immunity doesn't work like that. By not taking the vaccine, you become a more likely transmission vector. We need to leave the vaccine nowhere to jump to. We can see from the return of measles what happens when a lot of (in this case, mostly entitled middle-class white people) start thinking they know better than centuries of vaccination science.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Mikey on 30 March, 2021, 10:48:34 AM
Quote from: Mister Pops on 30 March, 2021, 10:08:23 AM
Sure those old and infirm people would be dead in ten years anyway.

That's in essence the defence case in the killing of George Floyd from what I understand. He might have died anyway, in the same way the person kneeling on his neck may well have expired while kneeling on George Floyd's neck.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Barrington Boots on 30 March, 2021, 11:03:25 AM
I try and stay off the heavier debates on this board, but I'm pretty disgusted by some of what I'm reading here.

Quote from: IndigoPrime on 30 March, 2021, 10:45:56 AM
Only vaccine-based immunity doesn't work like that. By not taking the vaccine, you become a more likely transmission vector.

This is 100% the case.

Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Colin YNWA on 30 March, 2021, 11:24:14 AM
Heavens to murgatroyd this is why I keep away from threads like this the vast majoroity of the time and today I made the error so incensed by a couple of things I read. But I'm here now so...

Legendary Shark the island herding was indeed facetious to underline the fact that the argument that if we just protect the ill and infirm we can all carry on our happy lives lacks the credibility I also mentioned.

Okay so let's set aside the facetious way I suggested as you've taken herding to islands off the table - damn thought I'd sussed it there. So let's see what you suggest the answer to that puzzler is - given that the idea of just keeping out of each others way while the disease runs rampant to suppress it doesn't work for you.

How do you suggest we:

1) Identifiy those who are old and infirm who need protection

2) protect them from a getting infected - how would you isolate them from the rest of the population who are carrying on as normal and thus allowing the disease to spread.

3) How do you propose those vulnerable to the disease in other ways (including the as not yet understood Long Covid as Indigo Prime points out) are identified

4) How do you proposed those who are vulnerable to the disease in other ways (including the as not yet understood Long Covid as Indigo Prime points out) are isolated them from the rest of the population who are carrying on as normal and thus allowing the disease to spread.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Link Prime on 30 March, 2021, 11:41:00 AM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 30 March, 2021, 11:24:14 AM
I keep away from threads like this the vast majoroity of the time and today I made the error

Error x 2.

Threads like this and 'The Political Thread' are to my eyes equal parts pointless, tedious and heavy handed cringe on the few occasions I've read them.

Quote from: The Legendary Shark on 30 March, 2021, 10:30:04 AM
Anyway, look on the bright side - the dose I refused will be available to save the life of someone more worthy.

Mark - you seem like a good bloke and I often enjoy reading your posts on the forum.
Previously you've shared details about your underlying health condition with us.
Disregarding all other bullshit, on a personal note, I hope you reconsider your stance on the COVID-19 vaccination.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: JayzusB.Christ on 30 March, 2021, 12:34:11 PM
I thought of a few things to say, but I won't.  I'm just going to stay away from this thread for a while.
Title: Re: Day of Chaos 2: a.Covid-19 thread.
Post by: Molch-R on 30 March, 2021, 12:53:03 PM
This thread is now locked. Despite a warning, individual posters have continued to use this thread to spread misinformation and conspiracy theories during a public health emergency. Further posts and threads will be deleted.