The Political Thread

[The Legendary Shark]

Yes, I do want to engage in another topic; exploring the question of what government is for, not whichever particular form it takes or what it currently does.

If we can agree on a definition then that gives us a solid basis for any further discussion, should we choose to engage in one.

As I said, if you want to use the definition you found on Wikipedia then that's fine. It is, however, a definition based on what government does, which isn't the same as defining what you think government is for, what its foundational purpose is.

We might, for instance, first be able to agree on a few things societies use governments for, such as organisation and then build our own mutually acceptable definition from there.

Look, I'm not trying to be awkward here, or lead you into some sophistic trap, or change your beliefs, or even to win an argument. To be frank, I thought it might be fun to explore our basic, core beliefs and see how they hold up. I don't want a slanging match, that's what politicians are for...

Anyhoo, I propose that, for the purpose of this particular discussion concerning what government is for, we adopt the definition for government as, "that part of society tasked with the organisation and maintenance of public infrastructure and services." This definition, to me, encompasses what government is for without any reference to method (eg., enforcement). It also assumes that government is a part of society and not apart from it, and I think it's a fairly neutral definition that can describe all governments no matter their flavour, methods, or size.

[Funt Solo]

There's a software engineering adage of "what's the problem?". Until you've defined the problem (well), what is that thing you're building actually for? What's the problem?

[The Legendary Shark]

What's the problem with what?

[Tjm86]

Maria?

[The Legendary Shark]

Thanks, Tjm. Now I have drinking chocolate dripping out of my nose.

[Funt Solo]

She's a terror with curtains.

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I mean, what's the point of your project to do with imagining a form of government. What is the problem you're trying to fix? What are you striving towards?

What's the problem? (And, if there isn't one, then there's nothing to build. Or is that art?)

[The Legendary Shark]

I think the problem is a discussion for the future. There may be many problems, few, or none.

I figured that if we first identify what government is for, then we can judge from that starting point what it's actually doing well, what it's doing badly, the directions it might take and the consequences of doing so. Who knows? We may even come up with something useful - even if it's only a deeper understanding of our own and each other's perspective.

[Funt Solo]

I guess the conclusion I'm arriving at is that I don't want to be a member of the committee for developing a definition for a new form of government for an unspecified task. Too ephemeral for me. Good luck, though.

[The Legendary Shark]

Who mentioned a committee?

Never mind. I guess we'll have to leave things as they are and hope to improve things by, I don't know, voting harder or something.

[von Boom]

The problem is that government is run by the wealthiest portion of the population and have no intention of letting the rest of us have a say.

[Professor Bear]

You're thinking of feudalism.  What we have these days is plutocracy, which is different and better.

[Funt Solo]

Who mentioned a committee?

Right? I mean, what's a committee even for? 

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Talking of government, I wrote a planet generator for the Traveller RPG ... let's see now - the planet Sut is a low gravity, temperate, desert world with only a trace atmosphere and a population of over ten million, run by a feudal technocracy - although there's are three factions on the planet (one a military dictatorship).  Rather than countries, every citizen is a member of a corporate media empire whose CEO is chosen based on the number of monthly up-votes generated via their various mass-communicated opinion-dissemination platforms.

[The Legendary Shark]

You're thinking of feudalism.  What we have these days is plutocracy, which is different and better.

I prefer "kakistocracy." It seems to fit fairly well.

[TordelBack]

I prefer "kakistocracy." It seems to fit fairly well.

I'll get the plunger.

[shaolin_monkey]

Who mentioned a committee?

Right? I mean, what's a committee even for? 

I think it's important we first agree a definition for 'committee'.