Main Menu

Star Wars Episode VIII: The Last Jedi

Started by TordelBack, 23 January, 2017, 04:29:12 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

TordelBack

#675
Quote from: sheridan on 01 January, 2018, 04:25:56 AM
Quote from: TordelBack on 31 December, 2017, 08:48:14 PMbringing the hope of freedom to the enslaved and downtrodden - which, remember, was what L'il Ani promised to do in TPM and then never even tried (in the movies).   

Did he do that in the novels / comics / other EU/Legends stuff then?

The TCW/Comics Anakin has an understandable bee in his bonnet about slavery,  and tackles it several times: most accessibly in the Zygerrian Slaver arc of TCW (Season 4?) and the DH Clone Wars comic that it's based on. There are plenty of more minor examples, and I don't know about the prose novels (there aren't that many Anakin novels anyway).

I would have given a lot to see Anakin's fall derive from actions he took fighting against slavery outside the Republic, in opposition to the Jedi Order's hands-off approach (as virtual slavers themselves they must have been nervous about addressing it). That would have allowed him to be a hero right up until manipulated into some terrible moment of anger that led him to become Vader,  instead of a venal self-absorbed kid with a minor genocide under his belt when he was still an apprentice.

JOE SOAP

Quote from: Professor Bear on 01 January, 2018, 11:26:22 AM
He's not really a stooge of Palpatine so much as simply biding his time, as evidenced by his willingness to turn on Palpatine in the OT, and more recently in the Lucas-approved alternate ending to the Revenge Of The Sith videogame where Anakin's besting Obi-Wan on Mustafar leads him to murder Palpatine.

Aye but it's implied he's not capable of doing it alone; I assume because he's physically unable so as stated needs Luke to confront the Emperor. Until then he can only really function as a servant along with Jerjerrod and the rest. The alternate ROTS ending sounds interesting enough. The film could've done with a bit more that attitude.

Quote from: Professor Bear on 01 January, 2018, 11:26:22 AM
Quote from: JOE SOAP on 01 January, 2018, 05:55:52 AMThe decision to go full evil in that Windu/Palps duel seems to boil down to Anakin being caught in a bunch of convoluted trickery on behalf of the Emperor about cheating death and convincing him the Jedi are carrying out a coup.

Although Anakin was already under Palpatine's thrall by then, Windu actually forces Anakin's hand by attempting to execute the democratically-elected leader of the Republic without trial, while also acknowledging he's acting illegally in doing so.

Though this forces Anakin to make a binary choice between the Republic and the Jedi, he hasn't "flipped" with this one act, he's still the same man he was when he told the Jedi that Palpatine was the Sith lord they were looking for, but Palpatine has by this point groomed Anakin to think that without the Jedi there's only one way forward for him: master the Dark Side and finally discover balance in the Force, just as he was destined to do before politics and romance confused his path.  He slaughters kids not because he's completely evil now, but because he's been duped - thanks in part to the "bullshit tales of midi-chlorians" - into thinking he has no other choice and that the ends - mastery of life and death - will justify the means.

A better actor and script would probably have helped, though.

As you quite rightly point out, by this time Anakin has revealed to the Jedi that Palpatine's the real enemy, but Palps has also just reminded Anakin of how only he has the knowledge that can save his wife. "He must stand trial" and "It's not the Jedi way" are played as though Anakin is feeding Windu a line so he can get what he needs from the Chancellor rather than service to the Republic – though I do enjoy Palpatine from this point on.

I admit it's purely a if I had my druthers view of all this but the grooming and befuddlement of Anakin's motivations make the character and his choice less convincing for me. I'd have preferred the status of Anakin switched at this point to show Palpatine's fear of him until after he's turned into a living cinder and Palpatine keeps him alive, c'est la vie.

Respect to Lucas though for trying to tie the 'conflict' threads together but leaving most of the heavy work until the second half of the last film did him no favours.

TordelBack

"This is not going to go the way you think".

Well he got that right. But what exactly did unhappy fans expect from Luke in TLJ?  Let's say, for the sake of argument, that he was actually a happy balanced Jedi Master busy doing urgent Snoke-defeating research of some kind on Ahch-To, rather being than a broken hermit like the two generations of masters that preceded and indeed taught him. 

Rey shows up, hands him his lightsabre and asks him to come back with her, train her and save the Resistance.  "Wizard" says Luke, "I've never run from a fight yet.  Let's do this!".   (And there go arguably the best bits of the film, but onward...). 

So they're on the Falcon and Luke is doing the whole 'unlearn what you have learned' thing with Rey, then they reunite with Leia and go on to a double-date smack-down with Darth 'Snoke' Plagueis (if we're making fans happy why not go the whole hog) and Kylo Ren, who is so hideously scarred he never takes off his helmet these days.

Luke and Plagueis/Ezra have a big ol' green-versus-blue lightning fight while Rey tries to turn Ben good through the magic of R.P. diction, which all ends in a draw, probably hingeing on the revelation that Obi-Wan is Rey's grandfather, and the fact that while Luke is teh arsome, Rey Kenobi is only a girl so can't beat Kylo, who is a boy and therefore stronger, so she lets the side down and gets captured by the Knights of Ren who are all like subtly different Boba Fetts with crazy lightsabre polearms*. Thus there can be another movie where the boys have to rescue her. 

So basically Luke's arc in this 'improved' version is that he was away on sabbatical while the First Order got in the saddle, but now he's back like he was never away and after 30 years of non-stop lightsabre practice he's the baddest most confident Jedi there ever was. Possibly even a Grey Jedi, although not one that in any way deviates from what everyone understands Jedi to be.

I know that was a childish straw-porg argument, but wasn't it a lot more interesting to see Luke, who defeated the Sith by throwing away his lightsabre and refusing to fight, [spoiler]driven to retreat by the utter failure that the fall of his own nephew, the only child of his best mate and his twin sister, represents, by the realisation that his attempt to recreate the Jedi Order on his own has only served to perpetuate its most poisonous legacy. 

"I was amazed how strongly the Force was with him. I took it upon myself to train him as a Jedi. I thought I could train him as well as Yoda: I was wrong", said Obi-Wan, and you can imagine those words ringing in Luke's ears as he watched his new temple burn.  The cycle repeats, there's something wrong in the setup: either the teacher, or the blood, or the teaching itself. Whichever, the solution is to remove himself from the equation. 

And then in the end, Luke's solution is once again to give his all to fight the darkness by not fighting.  [/spoiler]

I believe in this Luke more than I ever could the great warrior that people seem to have wanted to see. Wars not make one great.



*Meanwhile Poe and Finn jump in another TIE fighter and blow up the FO fleet while quipping away, DJ sees the value of freedom and joins the Rebels and Rose dies tragically trying to save CGI Leia who crashes her cruiser into Darth Ezra's flagship in a new ending filmed after Carrie Fisher's death.  Luke now leads the Resistance, and starts handing out lightsabres to likely looking lads and female Twi'Leks.


JLC

Quote from: TordelBack on 03 January, 2018, 02:20:02 PM
"This is not going to go the way you think".

Well he got that right. But what exactly did unhappy fans expect from Luke in TLJ?
I'm one of the 'unhappy fans' who actually lthought Luke's character was interesting, theoretically, but like everything else in this movie it was poorly executed. What a mess of a movie!

Professor Bear

So Luke runs off to hide for decades as a cranky hermit in a bathrobe, before coming out of hiding to join a young Jedi strong in the Force fight against an evil empire but [spoiler]dying[/spoiler] while stalling the evil black-clad villain - who was once a huffy lank-haired teen - in a lightsaber duel so that the goodies including Princess Leia and a headstrong gifted pilot can escape, and [spoiler]he dies by disappearing from his robes,[/spoiler] happy that he has "broken the cycle"?

This is why the whole "we had to do something different" defence rings utterly hollow to me even before the pretend iconoclasm of "you think I'm going to do this but I'm actually doing this" storytelling approach beloved of the Family Guy Star Wars specials wore down my patience.

TordelBack

It should go without saying that I would far rather have watched an Episode VIII with Prof Bear on the script committee,  and one where it was accepted that Luke lived happily ever after and only appeared as a wryly charming ghost, if at all.

But seeing as the Mouse took against such sensible ideas, I very much enjoyed the version we did get: in this light "something different" is less of a bankrupt defence and more the best we could have hoped for. Was anyone involved really claiming iconoclasm (which as I understand it gets you fired these days), or was it more a case of giving the audience a few surprises within established parameters?  Or even established meter?

I do however believe there is new stuff to see here.

I'd draw the reader's attention to [spoiler]Yoda and Luke's chat. In telling Luke that a Master is someone a student grows beyond,  he is reminding him that Obi-Wan and himself did everything they could to prevent Luke confronting Vader, and subsequently attempting to save him. Their advice, their teaching, was completely wrong (twice): Luke went his own way,  and succeeded.   To some extent this both exonerates Luke from his failure with Ben Solo,  and makes him realise that his most recent student might benefit from his support more than his opposition[/spoiler].

That the events closely mirror Obi-Wan's story doesn't take away from it - rather it highlights Luke's own journey, and maybe the viewers': I like that my childhood hero fails just like I do, and then gets back up and tries another way. 

radiator

It seems like a lot of people dislike this movie purely because of its portrayal of Luke, which I don't really understand. As with the question of Rey's parentage (and as I pointed out at the time of that film's release) it was pretty clear that decisions made in the writing of The Force Awakens had written the sequel into a corner regarding certain things, including Luke - ie that there was no real satisfying way of explaining his absence other than that he had ran away, and given up. It never even occurred to me that Luke having turned his back on the Force was supposed to be a twist or a 'subversion of expectations' in this one.

In a wider sense, pre-requisites of making this sequel trilogy were that:

a) The Rebel victory at the end of Jedi has to be undone.
b) Luke has to be taken out or removed from the action somehow - it was either this or have him dead before the film began (which would have been my preference).

A status quo where the good guys have already won and continue to survive would make for an incredibly boring springboard from which to tell new stories - see basically everything in the old EU.

I don't know why people are surprised, or were expecting anything different.

TordelBack

Quote from: radiator on 03 January, 2018, 06:00:25 PM
It never even occurred to me that Luke having turned his back on the Force was supposed to be a twist or a 'subversion of expectations' in this one.

I don't think it was meant to be,  but everything else you say is correct.  The decision to set the sequels so soon after RotJ was terrible,  but inevitable. However,  I think TLJ managed to be interesting and exciting within the parameters that its timeframe mandated.

JOE SOAP

#683
Quote from: radiator on 03 January, 2018, 06:00:25 PM
It seems like a lot of people dislike this movie purely because of its portrayal of Luke, which I don't really understand.

I don't agree or disagree with it but I understand the sentiment: a lot of people find the idea of their fictional hero dying a lonely death after several years of being a depressed former space-hippy far away from his best friends, abhorrent.* They want a craggier, more adjusted version of 23 year-old Luke from Return of the Jedi, which is fine, but is it going to be that interesting? Same goes for Han Solo.


Quoteit was pretty clear that decisions made in the writing of The Force Awakens had written the sequel into a corner regarding certain things, including Luke - ie that there was no real satisfying way of explaining his absence other than that he had ran away, and given up. It never even occurred to me that Luke having turned his back on the Force was supposed to be a twist or a 'subversion of expectations' in this one.


This might be the precarious path of nostlagia and inverted recycling they chose to go down with the Sequels but the basic Luke in seclusion story was never a problem, and it was the intended corner Lucasfilm wanted the story written into. It also happens to be George Lucas's idea.

Published in the 2 art books, the early Episode 7 pre-production concept art that Lucas had commissioned for his story treatment show a junk-planet urchin girl, known as Kira (renamed Rey), who goes searching for old Luke who's hidden in a temple on a mountain-top during a 30 year funk in which he's re-evaluating his life – Kira finds him, gets Jedi training, and helps him regain his faith. The villain – known as the Jedi-Killer – is an early version of what eventually became Ben Solo.


If you're going to do another full-on Luke story it's the best one to choose as enough time has elapsed for a certain amount of significant dramatic change to occur. Can he be stuck in a supporting role even as a force-ghost without too many fans complaining that it's a missed opportunity to finally show Luke 'da badass'? Wanting to go large with a demonstration of his force/lightsaber skillz doesn't appeal to me as a scene nor suit the character's more pacifist streak.

The scant knowledge gleaned from Lucas's commissioned concept art indicates he wanted the hermit-Luke story of The Last Jedi to be the crux of Episode 7 but it was Michael Arndt who preferred shoving Luke's story into Episode 8 – as is now well known his presence would dominate the story once he's introduced. I think Arndt was right but Abrams and Kasdan didn't fully follow-through with that looking for Luke theme and storyline, as it really only functions as a set-up and framing device in Episode 7.

QuoteIn a wider sense, pre-requisites of making this sequel trilogy were that:

a) The Rebel victory at the end of Jedi has to be undone.
b) Luke has to be taken out or removed from the action somehow - it was either this or have him dead before the film began (which would have been my preference).


To me the end of Jedi is not undone – they still won – but the Sequels have put it into a bigger story and context. Unfortunately, as with the set-up of Luke in 7, the context and nature of the antagonism isn't developed enough to support the idea of what-the-fuck happened since Jedi? This could easily have been rectified.

*Reluctantly, it behooves me to refer to Star Wars and The Hero's Journey since I've read a few fans citing it as proof that The Last Jedi's 'subversion' of Luke's character negates the culmination of his hero journey in the OT; they need to actually read it or are missing the Rescue from Without section from their crib-sheet.

Richard


GrudgeJohnDeed

Quote from: radiator on 03 January, 2018, 06:00:25 PM
It seems like a lot of people dislike this movie purely because of its portrayal of Luke, which I don't really understand. As with the question of Rey's parentage (and as I pointed out at the time of that film's release) it was pretty clear that decisions made in the writing of The Force Awakens had written the sequel into a corner regarding certain things, including Luke - ie that there was no real satisfying way of explaining his absence other than that he had ran away, and given up. It never even occurred to me that Luke having turned his back on the Force was supposed to be a twist or a 'subversion of expectations' in this one.

The premise of Luke living in solitude on its own isnt a big deal, but they weren't completely in a corner, Luke's personality, his reasons for being there and his subsequent arc could've been written differently.

For example what if rather than ignoring the force, he was training on this planet, a holy Jedi place where the force is strong, summoning and conversing with Jedi ghosts and meditating to attain further wisdom and mastery. 'After seeing the power of Snoke/Ren and my own limitations, I needed to know more, to prepare'.

Although not a whiney crank like in ep 8, he could still be left disturbed and fearful by his experiences with Ben Solo, be apprehensive about Rey and training her at first, yet eventually relent - but in this version find hope in her as she trains. Perhaps developing a paternal relationship, the father she never had. Ultimately, with newfound optimism and resolve he leaves the island with Rey 'I've been away too long' to take a corporeal part in the rest of the film up until his optional Obi-Wan style sacrifice later (I might've left that for the next one).

Rey would've got some shit-hot training if Luke had been channelling Jedi ghosts into the mix too! Show Rey your gorilla press, dad! :D

radiator

QuoteFor example what if rather than ignoring the force, he was training on this planet, a holy Jedi place where the force is strong, summoning and conversing with Jedi ghosts and meditating to attain further wisdom and mastery. 'After seeing the power of Snoke/Ren and my own limitations, I needed to know more, to prepare'.

I see what you're saying, but I still don't think there was a satisfying way of resolving what was set up in TFA - ie that Luke has thrown a strop and knowingly abandoned the galaxy to the First Order and Snoke.

I think Johnson did the best he could with a bad setup, with one exception - having Luke even contemplate murdering a teenager in cold blood is - just did not sit right with me, and just felt like a rather hollow attempt to get us to sympathise with Kylo Ren.

GrudgeJohnDeed

I don't think anyone categorically said in episode 7 'he's turned into a right moody knob' did they? Maybe something was said I don't remember but I dont think they were locked into the stroppy prick angle.

I think if you say the reason he did one is that he had to regroup and steel himself with training, reaffirm his oneness with the force and have a chat with the masters, you're got a good explanation. You could go into detail with that if you wanted, with something like Luke admitting to Rey that his understanding of the force was never equal to Yoda's or Obi Wan's, that he should've made this pilgrimage long before trying to train the next generation.

Perhaps theres a darkness in him somewhere caused by the tragedy of Ben Solo and that has been holding him back, stopping him from completing the final stage of his training (that's why he's been stuck there so long), and when he finds some hope and redemption in training Rey, he too completes his final task and will be a space ghost when he dies or whatever you get when you go blackbelt.

Quote from: radiator on 03 January, 2018, 11:49:59 PM
having Luke even contemplate murdering a teenager in cold blood is - just did not sit right with me, and just felt like a rather hollow attempt to get us to sympathise with Kylo Ren.

absolutely agree with that.

radiator

Am I imagining it or was there an early story leak during preproduction of TFA that suggested that Luke had gone into exile as he had become so powerful with the force he could not contain it, and ultimately ended up inadvertently killing Han?

GrudgeJohnDeed

I've not heard about that, the idea was he basically got the gush?? I'd have watched it!  :lol: