The Political Thread

[JayzusB.Christ]

Genuine question:  Where are you from, milstar?  I'm very curious; partly because of your views, and partly because of your sometimes fluent and sometimes broken English.

[Tjm86]

All I hear is Putin = Hitler, wants to conquer half of the globe, but 1)Cold War ended 30 years ago and 2)Putin isn't mad as Hitler, as Putin knows what he is doing and this was set months, even years ago. I mean, I am tired of paranoid boogey tales of evil Russkies.

Granted the rhetoric around Putin and comparisons with Hitler are misleading.  Same goes with the end of the 'Cold War' however in that regards it has to be remembered that Putin grew up in that environment.

Since Perestroika Russia has seen its status on the world stage diminished to an extent, the rise of a 'criminal aristocracy' that has blurred the lines between politics, business and criminality to the utter detriment of the Russian people and seen a government installed that is quite happy to act aggressively towards its own citizens and other nations.  These are not bogey tales.   There is plenty of documented evidence in this regard.

What happens in Ukraine is solely localized conflict and is definitely not on our doorstep.

Another valid point.  However it does gloss over the reach of Russian military forces as has been evidenced in the regular encroachment of British air and sea borders.  There is also the matter of Russian disinformation practices, a carryover from the Cold War.  Closely linked are cyber-attacks that have been traced back to Russian hackers that may or may not have links to the government.  Not to forget of course the small matter of the Salisbury incident, compelling evidence of which exists suggesting Russian involvement.

To understand this conflict, a one needs to dig in a bit into Eastern European history, starting from 1945 (for example, Crimea has been in the hands of Russians, until it was handed over to Ukrainians over some weird politics).

Here I'm going to refer you to some of my remarks upthread on the Holodomor (Terror Famine) that Ukraine suffered at the hands of the then Soviet regime.  Granted you have to go back quite a way to find a point when Ukraine was fully independent but that can be said of a lot of nations.  What is more pertinent is the way various Russian governments have acted towards the 'regions' or 'republics'.  In that regard there is a longstanding enmity.  Given that this conflict was instigated by Putin though, I'm not entirely sure the history would be particularly illuminating though.

Is Putin 'mad'?  Who knows.  Are nations around Russia justified in their concern?  Arguably, yes.  Are we beyond Russia's reach?  Definitely not.  Putin may not want to conquer the world but it would seem that he is intent on restoring / expanding Russian international standing and has a rather curious idea of Russian nationalism (have a gander at Gumilev's anthropological / historical writings for an idea ...)

All in all, it is definitely sphincter-tightening.

[The Mind of Wolfie Smith]

milstar, it's often difficult to work out what you're saying. however, if english is your second language then we all owe you respect.
but if your comment, "and Balkan...what was, one country committing genocide against another, which was absolutely untrue" means what i think it means, then this is a squalid new low for this thread and this entire forum.
(i say this as a central european, not that this should matter).

[Definitely Not Mister Pops]

I feel I should withdraw my criticisms of milstars incomprehensible posting style. Milstar, if English isn't your native language, then practicing it by composing posts for the complex and nuanced subject that is the war in Europe and Russian politics, in the relatively consequence free environment of an obscure British comics thread is kind of inspired.

[The Mind of Wolfie Smith]

 definitely inspired. i'm a big admirer of the ambitiously prolix.

[Funt Solo]

Genuine question:  Where are you from, milstar?  I'm very curious; partly because of your views, and partly because of your sometimes fluent and sometimes broken English.

I'm fairly sure milstar is Putin's mum. It's difficult to imagine anyone else defending him so ardently while pretending to be neutral. Methinks thou dost protest too much.

I don't really understand the cognitive dissonance that allows people to think of themselves as fair-minded as they lay down excuse after excuse for the violent, murderous behavior of a tyrant. "Oh, if only people hadn't pressured poor Mr. Putin, then he wouldn't need to bomb maternity hospitals! You forced him to do it! It hurts him more than it hurts them!"

If you're going to support that (while vacuously pretending that you're just being fair-minded) you're just a pathetic worm of an excuse for a human. Wriggle around all you like, but there it is.

[Definitely Not Mister Pops]

I'm fairly sure milstar is Putin's mum.

Putin's mum has been dead for years.

Allegedly.

[Jim_Campbell]

Allegedly.

You cannnnott killll what doesssss not livvve!

[GoGilesGo]

You cannnnott killll what doesssss not livvve!

You have no idea how on the button you are, Jim.

Putin's mum did, actually, come back from the dead.

I know this sounds like something right out of Fiends of the Eastern Front, but bear with me...

Both of Putin's parents, like little Vova himself, are natives of St Petersburg, formerly Leningrad. Between winter 1941 and January 1944, his mum and two older brothers, found themselves encircled by the Wehrmacht in the Siege of Leningrad. This was one of the grimmest sieges in history. Hardly any planes could land supplies and nothing could get through the German lines. Horses, dogs & rats became prized meals. Cannibalism was a fact of life few dared mention.

Adding to this was the Russian winter, and 1942 was a particularly unforgiving one. Wood was in such short supply, the crematoriums did not function and the ground was so hardened by frost few graves could be dug. The citizens of the city took to leaving bodies, stiff from death and in no danger of rotting due to sub zero temperatures, in piles on the street.

Both of Putin's older brothers, Albert and Viktor, died during the siege. A few weeks later Putin's exhausted and half-staved mother, collapsed in her apartment building. She was taken by neighbours and laid next to  a funeral pile.

She woke, apparently, just before the undertakers could cart her away.

Vladimir Putin was born ten years later.

One of many fascinating and brutal anecdotes chronicled in this amazing book
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B015754S6O/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

[Jim_Campbell]

Vladimir Putin was born ten years later.

HOLY. SHIT.

[milstar]

Genuine question:  Where are you from, milstar?  I'm very curious; partly because of your views, and partly because of your sometimes fluent and sometimes broken English.

Sorry for the late response, Jayzus. In recent weeks, I haven't had much spare time (if any). I saw your reply a couple of days ago, but I forgot about it, 'til now. Anyway, the frequency of responses here is going to be very sparse. (Just don't think I spent this whole week scribbling this comment, though did this whole afternoon).
Where am I coming from? Freshford, Somerset. A few miles south of Bath. We have a lovely inn. Or at least I think we do. I haven't been there in years. The river Frome burbles right through, and another one, the Avon, is close. I used to travel occasionally to Southern Europe, until the lockdown, met people, who were not really keen on western politicians. That probably influenced my views on the world of politics.
My English? Ah, it's a mix of several factors involved, all of a rather trivial nature. I was never a man of particular literacy. Even in elementary school, I had trouble grasping walls of text. I once heard a pretty good statement that native speakers tend to be lazy with their language, with which I can agree. It may sound controversial here, but grammar rules are something I pay little attention to when typing my comments, and I write them quickly as I lay out my thoughts at the time. Additionally, I often use my cellphone (unlike now), where I must wrangle with the tightness of the buttons and autocorrect (often necessary option). I hope these explain my Jekyll-Hyde coherency.
My views? I dare say they are not that weird to some other members of this forum. Over the years, I have observed governmental doings, or better said, wrongdoings, in both domestic and foreign departments. So-called "humanitarian" interventions often ended up miserably, one way or another (Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria, Libya...).
The extent of our leaders' crimes is that they only happen to remember a casual voter right before elections. This left me severely anti-authoritarian, maybe even more so than our Sharky laddie here. I am only baffled about whether I should consider them traitorous or putty-headed.

@Wolfie, I hope my answer satisfies your demands as well.

I was talking about genocide, not nuclear warfare, which is what we're well on the way to. Even the corridor announcement is chilling, since in the past we know how that ends up. (Basically, everyone leave your country so it can be taken over easily; those who stay behind all become enemy combatants by default and therefore fair game.) Beyond that, we've already seen Putin poison people overseas (including in the UK), by way of radioactive contaminants, along with committing atrocities with war-crime-level weaponry. Little to nothing is off the board for him.

And perhaps you're right about the end state. But if the end result of this is Putin killing countless thousands, probably committing genocide, and wiping a sovereign nation forever from existence, you're OK with that? You're like "hey, Ukraine brought this on themselves"? As for the NATO aggression, have you ever thought that ex-Soviet client states saw a shot at independence vs subjugation and therefore went for that? (CIS could have been a much smarter set-up, but Russia didn't want independence – it wanted those countries to do what Russia wanted, hence its failure.)

Indigo, I am a man of peace. I am against war, any war. Meaning you have to go al lthe way. I was just saying that while I don't support the invasion, I said that he had reasons, unlike waking up one day and going off the rocker, like "let's massacre and conquer a neighbouring country." I am assured this was in the boiling pan for quite some time. At its optimal, Putin probably seeks to restore a mix of imperialist Russia and the Soviet union, albeit in redux form. What is especially troubling is how the whole war trickled into the media, and I don't doubt both sides use propaganda for their purposes (well, one must be blind and notice extreme polarisation). No, I wouldn't throw the word "genocide" that lightly, giving it its weight. Ukraine has millions of refugees now, right? What if they return when the conflict is over? Additionally, what is spine-tingling is that Ukraine had a biological (biochemical, perhaps) lab seized by Russian forces. Under US supervision. Only a naive person, extremely naive, would think one side is exclusively good, and the other exclusively evil. Conflicts, at least in modern times, have rarely been that. I only feel sorry for the pain that the Ukrainian people have to endure as a result of NATO, Russia, and their own regime's actions.
Of what I've named as probable outcomes, I think the most likely one is where Ukraine loses a portion of its eastern part and is barred from joining NATO.

@Tjm86 without going part by part, I'll just say that I agree with you on a good number of your comments. I'll just add this. I am aware of Putin's statement on the fall of the Soviet union, and it is obvious that he seeks to restore Russia's influence worldwide, much in the vein of the US. In fact, Putin may already have reached that point when he decided to intervene in Syria. I seriously doubt a country like the UK could be of any interest to him, politically and geographically. Ofcourse, I don't claim we are beyond his reach, but that is not the point I am trying to make. If we haven't been invaded during the Cold war, I don't see that happening now. I am also fully aware of, and I've read somewhere pretty good reasoning on why some countries feel antagnistic toward Russia, blaming the Soviet era (well, more Soviet than tsarist). And quite rightfully so. Then there is the situation with eastern Ukraine with Azov neonazis adding fuel to the fire. Another problem is that both sides are spouting propaganda (the first casualty of war), which has seethed to extremely polarising levels. I'm not going to call Putin Hitler; in fact, I don't think Trump deserved that dreadful moniker; and Trump was certainly a madman. Politically illiterate.
Now, this whole situation is horrible. But what would be a more horrible outcome is if we go to war with Russia. That would be catastrophic. Well, I slightly walk that back. It would be castrophic, unless they do invade us.
Anyway, I don't expect this conflict to drag on, and if I have any clairvoyant skills, I don't see more of this in six months. And you, sir, seem well versed in Eastern-European politics and culture? Fancy giving some books to read?

Anyway, I think Oliver Stone gave a pretty good view on this (I'll leave the link instead of the whole post):
https://deadline.com/2022/03/oliver-stone-criticizes-putin-ukraine-1234973037/

My only disagreement is that I don't think anyone is happy about this, Russian nationalists too, and those others, the legion if they are happy about this, I don't consider them humans.
There's also the documentary "Ukraine on Fire," in which Stone appears, and which I watched and felt quite educated on the entire Ukraine crisis situation (that movie, by the way, is either forbidden or has been removed from Youtube).

But just so that a war can be tragicomical, here's one example:
https://www.newsweek.com/russell-texas-bentley-interview-pro-russia-donbas-ukraine-1684450

@Funt Solo which one? I take it's well known he had two of them.

But yeah, I'd rather be a pathetic human with a neutral PoV; than a fascist one, being conditionally demanded to use a designated label for the bloke.

[Definitely Not Mister Pops]

...I had trouble grasping walls of text...

Understandable

[The Legendary Shark]

Nicely put.

If my previous post was offensive, I apologise. Sometimes I have difficulty discerning comedy and reality, but my intent is never to hurt.

[Funt Solo]

Claiming neutrality is disingenuous when you spend your entire time repeating disinformation as if it's fact from one side (the invading side), defending the leader of one side (the invading side) and minimalizing attacks on civilians by one side (the invading side).

If you repeat the lies of a fascist, defend the honor of a fascist and excuse the crimes of a fascist, what does that make you?

[Richmond Clements]

...I had trouble grasping walls of text...

Understandable

Ironic.