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2000 AD => General => : -=>DEMONIZER<=- 10 March, 2004, 03:01:40 AM

: -=>DEMONIZER<=- 10 March, 2004, 03:01:40 AM

Video games have mutated into terribly flashy but empty experiences in recent years - does anyone find the current glut of 1st/3rd-person shooters simply boring after a few goes?

Sony with their Playstation 2 have given us one of the best games ever made - GRAND THEFT AUTO (the third one was the groundbreaker, with VICE CITY upping the brilliance even more) - but it has spawned lots of derivative and bland immitations that nevertheless sell by the bucketload.

Innovative new ideas are an increasing rarity - something totally never-done-before like PONG, SPACE INVADERS, BREAKOUT, PAC MAN is simply not going to happen when games producers are preoccupied with the demand for "realistic action" and guns, guns, guns.

I am grateful to Nintendo for refusing to bow to the Sony mentality of churning out macho and hot-selling but soul-less fare aimed at 14-year-olds.

Nintendo certainly make games aimed at kids, but craft their software with thought for adults and an ingenuity that lifts even their most whimsical theme way above the more realistic/serious "that'll-do" games offered by the Playstation mob.
: stront692 10 March, 2004, 06:19:29 AM
i always said this was going to happe when SONY came in to the videogame market - they upped the stakes, a lot of what we are playing now are just 3d versions of the ATARI originals with knobs on

i make a habit of supporting the underdog, it means i can buy less games a year comfortably but i think it keeps a bit of diversity in the market

the dreamcast was brilliant, and there are so many criminally under supported games on that platform SEGA has now sided with NINTENDO as well now (although with SEGA AMERICA largely siding with MICROSOFT and SEGA JAPAN largely siding with SONY but they are making ingenious new title for the under supported platform that go on to be hits bcos of a lack of software support)

NINTENDO pulled the plug on the original PLAYSTATION famicom CD drive bcos they didnt like SONYs ideas for videogames (they were something like the old FMV games and they wanted freedom to make their own, they basically want to converge movies, music and games onto one medium costing ?40 a time with mega sales), i think a lot of people have forgotten this

the old 2d shooters can be good when done right though
: VampiraJen 10 March, 2004, 06:41:26 AM
i'm currently playing grand theft auto: vice city..oh, the mindless violence, oh, the crass swaering...oh, how i wish K-chat radio was real...i'm in heaven.

I was a sega person in my youth, then PSOne, now PS2...so i guess....

: -=>DEMONIZER<=- 10 March, 2004, 07:10:59 AM
Mario games have loads of depth - in comparison Sonic and Bandicoot have not.

The Legend of Zela games have ingenious levels and engrossing puzzles to solve - Tomb Raiders pale in comparison.

Final Fantasy series is highly rated I suppose.

Toad would kick Sonic's spiky ass, let alone Mario!
: Steamboy 10 March, 2004, 07:38:38 AM
Topic close to my heart, I used to love computer games with a passion, it was MY pass time and I knew so much about it and was also good at it. I found that with the passing years and the market push towards 3D action games that everyone can enjoy have led to a massive dumbing down of games and as a result i find I've gone from purchasing a new game every week to getting maybe 2 titles a year, then only if they're worth the time and money to play. I dont want to play Tombraider 10 or Medal of Honour generic shooter I want a bit of originality in my games, dumb ass 3D action games that all control the same because of lazy ass PS2 owners cant be fu#ked learning a new control layout......gah I'm ranting this topic always does that to me sorry if none of thats coherant I guess my main point is I'm fighting with Nintendo Block who you with?
One last thing the best 3D game ever made would have to be Metroid Prime pure sweet original gameplay(sure it looked like a FPS but the gameplay was so well translated from the earlier 2D games it was anything but a FPS).

CU Krestel
: stront692 10 March, 2004, 08:42:09 AM
we have always had this debate since the 8 bits, the c64 owners had the biggest market being popular in america and all - the spectrum had the iggest number of owners while i had an amstrad cpc and was very happy, sure we had to put up with a few spectrum ports but u just bought those on budget and every else took the mick out of us so im used to that but we had a dedicated fanbase that made games for our computer that other machines couldnt cope with

now its moved but u still have playstation with the most titles and units, microsoft coming in with the most money and not much else and again im quite happy with my gamecube (i have an xbox for the essentials mind but if a game comes out cross platform that i like, i buy it on gamecube - just bcos)
: Jared Katooie 10 March, 2004, 02:40:13 PM
Nintendo have a heart albeit a small one. Sony do not. I dearly love sonic but SEGA putting him in games that are sh1t.

I dont care whether kids can play a game or not. I buy it if it's good. Or rather I would except I have no money.

Sony have gotten away with murder for years. Cursing and violence subtly creeping into their adverts and crap game after crap game selling millions.

The playstation 2 is regarded as the best console out there game-wise and even power-wise despite the fact that the X-Box has a better processor, spectacular games and a free hard drive which makes memory cards unnecessary.

Even the gamecube a fairly processor weak console has graphics which easily outstrip those of the PS2 but does anyone care? No, because the Playstation can afford to hang onto grand theft auto so every child in the world can nag their idiotic parents into buying them one and the gamecube is for "babies" and the X-box is for "nerds".

Games are my life, not just playing but studying them experiencing the world of games. Unlike comics games are successful but like comics profiteering is killing them.

The new X-Box will come without a hard drive. Why? Because it's more cost-effective to take the Sony route and rip people off with expensive memory cards than it is too be generous and hope younger gamers will be smart enough to realise it. They wont. They're stupid and rich and all they want is the game their friends tell them they should want.

I'm sorry if it appears I've gone insane but this is the one subject in the world which is really important to me. I like games but I'm not rich enough to play them anymore. And with todays consoles you cant win anyway...


So in answer to your implied question I like Nintendo better.

But if you want a company with a future look elsewhere.

: Matt Timson 10 March, 2004, 03:00:19 PM
Ok people, it looks like we have a problem.  Somebody switched Jared with some other thoughtful, sensitive kid.

Jaredkatooie in "straight from the heart" shocker!

: Jared Katooie 10 March, 2004, 03:15:05 PM
Bah! I have no heart. I'm just... bitter because others make more money than I do!
: Matt 10 March, 2004, 03:28:50 PM
GGGRRRRRRR....now all this Sony slating has gotten me in a fighting mood. Okay the PS2 may not be the most powerful console on earth, and yes there is a huge glut of developers churning out pap games, but with a little help from the likes of Gamespy it's not too hard to short out the wheat from the chaff. Over the past year I've being fortunate to play some of the best games on PS2 that I've ever experienced, and I've being playing games week in week out since the speccy 48k. Splinter Cell, Vice City, Prince of Persia, Everything or Nothing, Hitman, Freedom Fighters, SSX 3 and Manhunt have all kept me enthralled and fired my love affair with the console.

As for "...azy ass PS2 owners [who] cant be fu#ked learning a new control layout", all I can say is if it ain't broke don't fix it. The Dual Shock pad is still one of the best control pads going. And I don't buy this arguement that Sony = big corporation = capitalist scumbags. I think you'll find that most PS2 games can be bought online for under 30 quid. You try finding Nintendo new releases that cheap.
: Matt 10 March, 2004, 03:33:53 PM
"I want a bit of originality in my games"

What like Mario Kart, Super Mario Kart, Mario Kart 64 and Mario Kart Double Dash? And don't even get me started on Mario Land, Starfox & Mario Party. All bursting with originality eh ;)
: Slippery PD 10 March, 2004, 03:42:02 PM
I always find these arguments great.  Its pretty poor all in all and quite indicative fo the Brittish mind set, if something is doing something well and is popular its about time we knocked them down.  

In all forms of entertainment, the most popular things tend to be toned down and bland.  Look at books!  Look at the music charts!  Look at comics!  Look at Films! All the same.  Its quite astounding that anyone thinks that games will be different...

As with most things popular means that things will be copied, if someone pays for something once why not try and get them to pay for something similair again.  Its how making money works.......  

Anyone should be able to distinguish a good game by reading reviews etc, and similarly know if they will like it or not.  The MAJOR advantage the PS2 has is that it was backward compatible, allowing all PS1 games to be played on it.  No one really wants three old systems lying around in their house taking up space, just so they can play an old game every now and then.

Jared - loved yer post.  But holding up Microsoft as a Paragon of Virtue against Sony is rather funny :)

Yer Slips  
: Jared Katooie 10 March, 2004, 03:49:25 PM
"Jared - loved yer post. But holding up Microsoft as a Paragon of Virtue against Sony is rather funny :)"

That wasn't quite the point I as trying to make Slips, but I'll let it slide. >:)
: Jared Katooie 10 March, 2004, 03:52:58 PM
: Pyroxian 10 March, 2004, 04:11:28 PM

  No, no Lara is dead - Eidos have killed the license with the latest few games.

  Now Prince of Persia, that's how Tomb Raider should've been...

  Still prefer my Dreamcast though ;) Mmm, Ikaruga...

: Satanist 10 March, 2004, 04:25:04 PM
I had to post on this one.I've played games for the last twenty years and truly believe we've never had it so good.
I own all three of the main consoles and play each one whenever it gets a good game.I don't play the machine because of who made it but whats been released on it.Do you blame Sony if theres nothing on the telly you fancy tonight just cos they built the TV?
At the moment I'm playing through KOTOR on Xbox(2nd time round after using the dark side to win).
That doesn't mean I don't like the big N or Sony just that I'm waiting until something I fancy comes round.
But if push comes to shove and I'm forced to choose a side then I'd agree with most that Nintendo games do seem a lot more polished than most.
: IndigoPrime 10 March, 2004, 05:47:49 PM
The difference, of course, being the fact that there was still considerable innovation on the 8-bit platforms. How many innovative games are released these days? Very, very few, I'd wager.
: Pyroxian 10 March, 2004, 06:00:10 PM
>How many innovative games are released these

  Not many, but I think that's a technology issue, there's been no considerable leap in tech since the move to make all games 3D. About the most innovative thing to come out recently is Eye-toy...

: stront692 10 March, 2004, 06:01:15 PM
SONY is not a computer company, they bought their way in the same way that MICROSOFT is doing now - NINTENDO is the traditional game company so its an argument between old and new games players

i think that SONY with their typical japanese attitude towards commerce actually believe they can take over 100% of the market, the problem is that if they do that - yerslips point will strangle the market and lead to another carsh so that will never happen (the people making games for the console will keep re using the same idea ad infinitum bcos they can and jump on any new idea that someone else has) - u need choice in a healthy market, not domination and whenever a companys market share gets too big there is a backlash against them

im not knocking sony bcos they are doing well, i am knocking bcos i do not want to play their games ad infinitum - i dont mind tehm every now and then but i resent the way they are using a strong home market to undercut their console abroad and make us play these games

if METRIOD PRIME was released on the SONY, it woul onlyt register a blip - while CRASH BANDICOOT only registers a minor blip on the NINTENDO and i prefer the former, they are different styles
: VampiraJen 10 March, 2004, 06:50:07 PM
"No, no Lara is dead - Eidos have killed the license with the latest few games."

Sigh...i'm begining to wish i hadn't said anything now...truth is, i actually liked TR6, i took a while to look past the annoying controls and all, but there was more of a story there than some of the earlier games and it goes without saying that the graphics are amazing.  Admittidly, it could have been better, but what with crystal dynamics taking over, i remain hopefull.

TR5 was pish, for the same reason i don't much like TR3, playing wise, they are fun, but the story i don't like, i'd rather one big story than several mini games.

as for sonic, give me a break, i was 8 the first time i played it and had never played a computer game before that.  it blew me away.  this blue hedgehog was zooming past the screen so fast i couldn't keep my eyes on him.  bloody fantastic.




he's the keeper of my child hood and innocence, he's the reason i'm addicted to computer games, the reason why my eyes have gone square, and the reason i look back on some memories and smile.

sonic and road rash.  or was it road rage?  the one where you are in a street race and everyone is trying to beat the crap out of the other.  how quaint (says she who is playing gta:vc :))
: Jared Katooie 10 March, 2004, 06:53:15 PM
Road rage! Yo?ve somewhat redeemed yourself in my eyes after your criticism of Mario (as in Mario, the greatest game character who ever lived, Mario).
: Satanist 10 March, 2004, 06:56:53 PM
" i dont mind tehm every now and then but i resent the way they are using a strong home market to undercut their console abroad and make us play these games"

Who exactly is MAKING you play these games?I mean if you don't fancy a certain title then don't buy it.If you don't like Microsoft then don't buy an Xbox.
Games are evolving slower now not because the evil corporations dont care for the little guy its cos theyre so expensive to make and if you were throwing a few million at a title you want it to appeal to the masses.
: Oddboy 10 March, 2004, 07:02:49 PM
: VampiraJen 10 March, 2004, 07:07:34 PM
"Road rage! Yo?ve somewhat redeemed yourself in my eyes after your criticism of Mario"

*wipes away sweat off of forehead*

feewww...that's nice to know...
: Jared Katooie 10 March, 2004, 07:20:42 PM
Ah, but could you handle the secret black bike?
: IndigoPrime 10 March, 2004, 07:22:32 PM
I think it's precisely because of the technology that innovation has been killed. Everything now has to be 3D, otherwise marketing execs think it won't sell. Projects cost many thousands of pounds, to get 'realism', when they used to be created by a single person in their bedroom.

Oddly, the GBA is one place where some innovation still exists, partly because it's not powerful enough to do 3D. Therefore, you get games like Wario Ware.

I wish software houses would take a good long look at classic 1980s games and discover what made them so great. Immediacy and playability are things that cannot be replaced by pretty graphics, a pumping soundtrack and cut-scene movies. Also, why does everything have to have a 'story' and 'game time' these days? I used to love open-ended games! Even most versions of things like Tetris now come with a welded-on 'story' mode.
: Oddboy 10 March, 2004, 07:27:58 PM
Oh yeah! I was the *master* at that game RR2. After a while, I took a vow of pacifism, and completed the game without so much as a raised fist.
: Mr C 10 March, 2004, 07:53:25 PM
: Satanist 10 March, 2004, 07:59:20 PM
Sony vs Nintendo Vs Dell?

Nah,doesnt sound right
: Priv8eye 10 March, 2004, 08:00:57 PM

(apart from the fact you have to upgrade every couple of minutes to play stuff)
: Jared Katooie 10 March, 2004, 08:08:16 PM
PC is best.

Consoles only for the games they could release on PC easily but wont, like Mario and Fable and the like.
: Pyroxian 10 March, 2004, 10:02:56 PM
Yeah, but can't play PC games with a Joypad on my sofa in front of my 32" telly with surround sound on.

Have to sit at my desk on a dining-room chair hunched over a keyboard and mouse...

Which is fine for FPS's and RTS's, but not so good when you want to play a driving or platform game.

: VampiraJen 10 March, 2004, 10:14:10 PM
the only thing i've ever played on pc is red alert 2, which does work better on pc that consol, but i just can't imagine trying to play something like tomb raider on pc, give me a control pad any day of the week...must be a thumb thing...

my obiding memory of road rage is that i never actually owned that game, a friend did, and i whooped his arse at it, and borrowed it off of him once (in exchange for streets of rage, i think), but not for long enough to get very far with it.

I think electronic art were kind of ahead of the game back in those days.  Remember Desert Strike?
: VampiraJen 10 March, 2004, 10:16:37 PM
mr c - you might want to go to a doctor about that cough...

"ahead of the game" - sorry, no pun intended...:(
: Pyroxian 10 March, 2004, 10:49:52 PM
>Remember Desert Strike?

  Yep, Great game (bloody hard though) although I had it for the Amiga, not the Mega-drive. I've now got the Mega-drive version though :)

: -=>DEMONIZER<=- 11 March, 2004, 01:29:39 AM

The Commodore Amiga - now that was a machine!

Remember the old Amiga vs ST wars in the magazines and at school?

And before that, C64 vs Spectrum [no contest, but the ZX was still one hell of a machine].

ZX81 anyone? ZX80 even?
: Pyroxian 11 March, 2004, 02:05:58 AM
Got 'em all (except for the ST - the only game I can think it's worth getting one for is Oids), oh and I don't have a ZX80 because the ZX81's exactly the same really, except faster.

Speccy, great games, nice sharp graphics. C64 had fantastic sound and colour, but the graphics were a bit blocky :(

Love the Amiga still and still get my A1200 out of the box and play some games on it now and again, the rest I just play on Emulators as I can't be arsed to wait 5 minutes for a tape to load! I'm toying with the idea of getting a 2nd x-box, chipping it, sticking in a bigger hard-disc and loading it up with hordes of emulators so I can play classics on the big-telly without having to unpack one of my consoles beforehand.

: Pyroxian 11 March, 2004, 02:16:59 AM
Just to get back on topic slightly - towards the end of the 16-bit era, games had lost their originality, we were subjected to many generic 2D platformers (we used to joke that they had a construction kit program to bash them out, I've since found out that's not too far away from the truth...), generic 2D beat 'em ups and shoot 'em ups.

Once Doom came out, it revitalised the industry and made the console companies (OK, well Sony as the Saturn was going to be a 2D console until Sega saw the Playstation) think that 3D was the next best thing, which meant for a while we started getting new ideas thrown into market.

Still, there's plenty of original ideas out there the problem is a) getting Marketing divisions to understand them and b) getting the teenagers to buy them instead of Tomb Raider VII: This-time-we've-ballsed-up-the-control-system-so-bad-you'll-strangle-yourself-with-the-controller-cable

: -=>DEMONIZER<=- 11 March, 2004, 05:21:22 AM
ZX81: I remember 3D Monster Maze and some Star Trek game with fondness... have u got those? How blown away I was at the time, man....

ZX Spectrum 48k: Manic Miner, JSW, Wally games(Automania, Pyjamarama), Dragontorc, Sabre Wulf, Atic Attac, Underwurlde, Knight Lore, Football Manager... remember FAIRLIGHT? Where the hell is that 3-channel sound coming from!!??

Blocky graphics were a critisism of the C64 for sure, but when you got Impossible Mission, Parallax, Uridium, Bubble Bobble and loads of other classics that escape me... who cared?

It's a bit old-fartish, but I dont't care - they simply do NOT make 'em like they used to!
: stront692 11 March, 2004, 06:34:13 AM
the GBA has also been flooded with loads of 16 bit ports and snes games as well, though

as u say its due to the high cost of gaming at the moment, software groups re relying on bread and butter conversions while trying to come up with a hit (it got this way towards the end of the 8 bit era and again at most eras since, the only exception is the dreamcast which was flooded with high end software just before they stopped making it - i had a great xmas that year)
: stront692 11 March, 2004, 06:43:21 AM
games are evolving slower bcos they are being treated like product, every year they tout that games make more money than the film industry - at ?40 a pop im not surprised (films cost ?5 a time and are a weekly experience, i dont many people that can buy a game a week)

if games ever do become like films then we are in big trouble cos then we will be battered with endless big summer blockbusters and sequels even worse than now - every time someone makes a new game it will copied to deaht for the next 2 years just like the trends in the cinema (dinosaurs after jurassic park, aliens after men in black, superheroes at the mo)
: Steamboy 11 March, 2004, 07:55:41 AM
Matt, the games you mentioned in your earlier post as top PS2 games are all available or will be available soon on Xbox(some on cube) with improved graphics, I meant the PS2  has very few decent Exclusive(and i mean fully exclusive not exclusive for 6 months) titles with a couple of exceptions(main ones I can think of are the Gran Turisimo games, the best racing games around). The controller coment was based on my belief that all most all PS2 games have a generic button layout and use the controller in the same way leading to titles playing the same, I for one like the challenge of learning a new game not playing the same game with dif graphics.
The Double Dash point I agree very similar same as Mario but atleast the new elements they add work and dont shit up the gameplay. My main point is the whole market is becoming stagnant and stale because mainstream gamers dont want to take a chance on titles they've never hear of. Whats a bet we get a Tomb Raider sequal next year but not a Prince Of Persia sequal, look at sales figures over Christmas
Big Sellers - MOH:Rising Sun bellow average sequal to top selling game last year(not even half as good IMO)
           - Tony hawks Underground(5) yawn been there done that a couple of years ago with Agressive Inline(awsome game didn't sell simply because it didn't have a big name attached)
           - Need For Speed Underground oh look Fast and the Furiouse game....yawn below par graphics wow 2 player games online, but you can give your car a nice flash paint job
All three of these games outperformed(in Aust market anyway) Prince of Persia not one could hold a candle to the quality that is P.O.P. I suppose  its something we have to live with when a medium goes mainstream doesn't mean we have to like it.

CU Krestel (did I mention how much I like Metroid Prime)

: Devons Daddy 11 March, 2004, 01:06:03 PM
i get to see the comparison game wise here .

with so many pirate versions of games easily avaible i am able to make direct comparisons.

i have found PS 2 tend to have 30 basic games and 10 versions of them each which they like to pretend = 300 games.

XBOX has 30 basic games but 3 -4 quality version of each.

Game cube. some outstanding games. but such a small market out here i think it will go to the wall in five years.

sony are happy to churn out crap. microsoft seem to be more quality orientated.

but innovation is nintendo, but such a small fan base its not going to cut it in the long run.