Why is 2000AD and the Meg so childish?

[Generally Contrary]

Despite reading these threads discussing the childish nature of 2000AD and the Meg I still don't understand what GB means by 'adult'.  Does he mean stories that would get an '18' certificate?  That tells us nothing of the content of the story or the ideas being explored.  After all Britain's Bum Bandits and the like are only available to adults, but I would hardly describe them as intelligent, mature explorations of anything, no matter how entertaining one might find them.

I also don't understand why adult seems to be connected to a particular style of artwork.  Why should the art of 'Master Moves' be taken to signal that the whole story is childish?  Are Speigelman and Clowes et al. practitioners of 'adult' art in this regard?

I want to read intelligent stories.  And I judge these individually, attaching no weight in themselves to the amount of sex, swearing, violence or realistic art.  And Master Moves and Cookie might, or might not, fail in this assesment.  But no pipes through the head, graphic sex, swearing or photo-realistic painted artwork would have made them more so.  So what is it that you want?  

[-=>DEMONIZER<=-]

I would guess stories pandering to real-life adult situations through their themes and subtexts.

That is to say grim, unfantasic violence, casual and frank but not necessarily tittilating nudity, and council-estate, un-hollywood style profanity.

"Normal people in fantastic situations" could be a way of looking at Gerald's ideal sci-fi stories - we get the far-out ideas, but without the far-out protagonists normally necessary to please fans and "fit-in" with the proceedings.

TRAINSPOTTING in space?

Sure I'm wide of the mark, though Gerald!

[GeraldBostock]

You're actually pretty much correct. Fantastic situations with normal people is the kind of thing I'm looking for. "The Killing Joke" had an inherently silly character in the Joker, but the characters were treated in such a way that the story became more feasible, and less childish than the Batman stories of the 60's.

JimBob you may be pretty accurate about Asimov and Clarke but those guys were writing in the sixties so they don't have the cutting edge of todays stuff. However, they are still fantastically entertaining, without being either ludicrously silly or overly scientific. And what about Ben Bova? You don't mention him? Asimov and Clarke didn't need swearing or sex (or even women, like you mention!) to write a gripping story, but they were still, for the most part, serious, thought provoking, intelligent tales.
Some people still don't know what I'm looking for so here's some Dredd tales I thoroughly enjoyed last night (found them in the loft, forgot I had them) - "The Pit", "The Tale of the Dead Man", "Fetish" " and Slaine's "The Treasures of Britain". Dark without being overly so, with some humour but no stupid "zany" crap like robot Chef's on talk shows.

[Pyroxian]

>but no stupid "zany" crap

    But, the 'Zany crap' is what makes Mega-City 1 such an interesting place - let's be honest, Fatties are pretty Zany as are bat-gliders, knee-pads etc. etc. MC1 has to be Zany in order for Dredd to work - he's effectively the straight-man opposed to MC1's comedian act.

    I do appreciate the odd darker story though, but I prefer 2K and the Meg to be a nice balance between the two, and I think most of the people here do too.

    Steve

[thrillpowerseeker]

By what definition are you deciding its childish?..Some stories work for me some dont but the only things I can think of lately as being 'childish' are the Droid Lifes and they have been laugh out loud funny just lately whether you are a child or adult...I still dont think there is a magic formula that will attract a legion of youths to start buying either prog or meg, but what you dont want to start doing is alienate your readers any further by including half arsed 'street-cred' bollocks like Roxillas Reviews and Tharg spouting a load of snow board jargon in ads

[Generally Contrary]

It still confuses me that you seem to equate 'dark' with adult/mature work.  I too prefer dark, realistic strips, but I do not think that this is the only way to approach adult, relevant themes in an intelligent way.

You've already recanted on the previous postings that suggested that swearing, sex and violence were the markers of an adult story.  Marking the 'zany' out for being inherently childish is, for me, at odds with much of the best short sci-fi, which looks at possible futures and extrapolates current trends, reducing them to absurdity, exploring serious themes while keeping the reader entertained.

Just as an aside, what do you think of Kurt Vonnegut.  Myself, I've always found both Asimov and Clarke's writing to be cold and dry, if that makes any sense.  

[thrillpowerseeker]

One of the most disturbing stories I can remember was a Dredd tale concerning state sponsored euthenasia..It featured a 'Miss Marple' caricature and read like a typical throwaway Dredd of the time..but I remember the ending quite shocked me and left a bitter taste in my mouth for reasons I wont go into on this board ( but any Dutch squaxx will know what I mean)..what I'm trying to say is that tooth has a good rep of appealling to most people most of the time..You cant say fairer than that

[Woolly]

'Some people still don't know what I'm looking for so here's some Dredd tales I thoroughly enjoyed last night (found them in the loft, forgot I had them) - "The Pit", "The Tale of the Dead Man", "Fetish" " and Slaine's "The Treasures of Britain". Dark without being overly so, with some humour but no stupid "zany" crap like robot Chef's on talk shows.'


I agree with you on all but 'Fetish' there.
'Treasures of Britain' ranks as one of my favorite Slaine stories but i dont really feel that its all that 'dark'. The bit with Ukko doing his jester act is superbly daft!

As for 'Fetish', im afraid i found it cold and dull. Each to their own i guess!

Cant really say much else, as we all have our own ideas of what makes a comic strip great, and i'd hate to think i was discrediting anyones opinions.

Suffice to say, its a shame some of 2000Ad's more lighter strips arent pleasing you. Cause they really are good if given a chance!!

And dont worry about the darker stories, they do exist in 2000AD, and there will definately be more in the future.

[-=>DEMONIZER<=-]

Those three DREDD's you mention definately have a lot in common.

Between the three, there is a lack of outright comedy often associated with the character, and even minimal black humour and social commentary.

They are by-and-large straightforward gripping stories, without any need for "zany" elements.

They are also fairly long stories [THE PIT was epic, THE DEAD MAN business surrounded NECROPOLIS] and we know from the first episodes we are in for some gritty stuff - to that end, none of these three disappoint by staying on the no-nonsense track and not hitting us with too much tongue-in-cheek.

I have plenty time for "zany" [I know everyone hates that word, but the endearingly comical is just what some of our favourite sci-fi stories are] one-offs, but the darkness of THE PIT, THE DEAD MAN and FETISH is refreshing.

[GeraldBostock]

"It still confuses me that you seem to equate 'dark' with adult/mature work"
 Well, the Beano doesn't have many "Dark" strips does it. I don't see what's confusing you. Generally, darker things are adult are they not?

As for Kurt Vonnegut, I don't know if I've ever read any of his stuff - I've read so many SF books over the years, mostly from the "Golden Age" from the 50's to the 70's. A lot of people find Asimov lacking somewhat, but I love his settings, while admitting his characters were not that great. Golden Age SF was, for me, about imagination - what would the galaxy be like in the future, rather than what would the PEOPLE be like in the future. If you see what I mean, and I'm not sure even I do! Check out "The Robots Of Dawn" or "Robots and Empire" to see what I'm on about.      :-/

[Generally Contrary]

I don't think that the argument, "the Beano does not contain 'dark' strips, the Beano is for children, therefore the defining characteristic of of an adult (in the best sense) strip is 'darkness'" really stands up.  After all, there are plenty of other things that strips in the Beano do not contain, such as graphic sex, realistic violence and swearing, which we have established do not, in themselves, make a strip adult in anything but the most basic, shallow sense (a sense of the word 'adult' that I do not think counts as a recommendation).  Strips in the Beano also contain plenty in common with your definition of adult strips, after all, they use the same medium.  So, the special nature of 'darkness' and, expanding this, 'grittiness' as not only, in your argument, not only making an adult strip but being the only definition of an adult strip requires further, better argument.

I doubt we will meet on this argument, GB, as I can see no reason why a non-realistic art style, and a non-realistic fictional world containing absurd elements cannot still be adult and intelligent.  However, of course, this comment is not meant to close the argument - I am not trying to have my say and then declare further discussion void. ;)

[-=>DEMONIZER<=-]

Come again?

[Noisybast]

"Death saves a neighbours cat from falling from a tree and gets a ?5 reward..."

Does he spend it on a slap-up meal (bangers & mash) at the Hotel De Posh?

[Cthulouis]

darkness doesent always make something "adult". it can however make things "angsty" which isnt always good. a well thought out story that amuses, enlightens or provokes thought while still remaining light harted in tone is more worthy of the term "adult" than something which simply contains a lot of violence and swearing just cause the writter wanted it to be "gritty". Im not saying that dark gritty comics are bad, but some peole can make such things ressemble purile shallow trash.

[Dudley]

An excellent take on this issue from PJ Holden has just gone up on the 2000adreview.co.uk forum... to paraphrase, as you get older, you grow progressively less afraid of being childish.

Link: www.2000adreview.co.uk