Meg 246: Invasion!

[scutfink]

I'm assuming Moore would reach some kind of mutually amicable deal whereby he could write the stuff and someone with a printing press could run off copies of it for a degree of financial reimbursment agreed by both parties. The person or persons producing this printed material (Just for fun, let's call them the 'Publishers'.), could as part of their agreement, include a clause allowing them to regularly re-print said material producing further finacial benifits for both parties...

Or something, maybe I'm being naive...

[Satanist]

So it would all be gathered together in some kind of book except with sequential pictures.

Like oh I dont know...some kind of "Graphic Novel" perhaps?

[nick-is-at-home]

Black Siddha is fantastic. the most original concept in ages and that art is realy doing it for me on this strip. also, it's one of the only strips which demands to be re-read again and again. Not just because it gets a bit confusing sometimes but because it's just so darn goood.

-in my opinion anyhow

Dredd strip great

Alan Moore bit interesting, written features work better in the Meg if they're actually about comic creators. Even though i liked reading up on classic TV like the Avengers and The Prisoner it wasn't worth the extra ?2.

The Meg is on top form at the moment.  

[Jim_Campbell]

"Or something, maybe I'm being naive..."

Yes ... but the _point_ is that Moore wants the copyright back and has referred to the (various) publishers of 2000AD in fairly inflammatory terms up to and including [1] 'a bunch of thieves' ...

None of which would indicate that if he _did_ get the rights back, he would necessarily do more Halo Jones for 2000AD.

Under which circumstances, _I_ wouldn't go for such a deal if I were Rebellion.

It seems we're back to _this_ again:

I've signed a work for hire deal and seen material I helped create exploited for significant profit with no financial benefit to me.

So what? I knew the terms when I signed the contract, and, in Moore's case, 2000AD weren't offering a noticeably worse deal than any other publisher in the market at the time.

You don't like it, don't sign it. That simple.

Cheers

Jim

[1] If memory serves. As usual, it probably doesn't ...

[nick-is-at-home]

Halo Jones Book One was better than the last two. The more character based plot worked better than the more action filled scenes. I know that when it was published originally 2000AD was a boys comic or whatever but now 2000AD has adapted and if it did return i'd hope that Moore would be allowed to use the character they way he wanted to.

Although there was talk about Gibson buying the rightsa to the tory and doing the writing and the art himself.  
 

[Funt Solo]

Two sides to the argument:  those that think any deal is fair, and those that think some deals aren't.

When the deal is "do with a deal with us or face never having a career doing what you love most", then there's some pressure there to agree to something that's perhaps not in your best interests.

Example:  I once sold something for ?10 that was worth ?50.  I had to - I needed ?10.  The deal was fair in the sense that we both agreed to it, and also unfair in the sense that I was being ripped off.

"You don't like it, don't sign it. That simple." is a trite argument that ignores potential complications of context.

It's kind of odd to use hindsight to argue in defence of something that happened in the 80s, where perhaps creators who were just starting out didn't have a full realisation or understanding of the consequences of the deal.

As for more Halo Jones - I doubt that it would live up to anyone's expectations.  It went out on a high.

[paulvonscott]

I'd agree with Jim, Though I think the original point made by droids in the 80's was royalties on spin offs and merchandise not originally envisaged when they signed to contracts.

I can't begrudge them wanted a perecentage of that, even if legally they weren't entitled to it.  Just because you later decide a contract isn't fair based on new circumstances doesn't mean you can get out of it, coz, er, it's a contract.

Moore's argument seems to stem from this, but has reached the point where if they gave him back the rights, he still wouldn't give them any new work.  I don't entirely agree with his argument, but hey, he's a grown man, he can do what he wants to.

Also, these days, the money is in the intellectual property, not the printing presses. The IP that companies collect, is in effect their asets, without them, they'd have nothing.

You can point to Europe where things are more creator orientated, but then there's a proper market for comics there and presumabley money in publishing creator owned works.

There's always a choice to go off and do your own thing, pay for it and publish it yourself.  But as we've seen with a lot of creator driven initiatives, it's easy to lose an awful lot of money.

It's over, bridges have been burnt, and I can't see Rebellion worrying about that, the argument predates them anyway.  Moore's run on 2000AD comes to four collected books, and that's all there ever will be.  No point hoping othwerwise, we may as well see what new stuff comes up in 2000AD.

[Jim_Campbell]

"Example: I once sold something for ?10 that was worth ?50. I had to - I needed ?10. The deal was fair in the sense that we both agreed to it, and also unfair in the sense that I was being ripped off. "

And the work I do for my employers is worth far, far more than the pittance that they pay me, but I need the job. At the moment, I have no better offers so I'm stuck with it. Welcome to the real world.

""You don't like it, don't sign it. That simple." is a trite argument that ignores potential complications of context. "

No, it's not. It's the way it is. If Moore didn't like the contract he could have had the courage of his convictions and self-published, or he could have sought out a publisher offering a marvellous creator-rights deal ... except there weren't any of them back then, were there?

"It's kind of odd to use hindsight to argue in defence of something that happened in the 80s, where perhaps creators who were just starting out didn't have a full realisation or understanding of the consequences of the deal."

But there really, really _weren't_ any better deals on offer back then. The US market offered higher page rates, but it was still work for hire.

Plus, of course, if Moore hadn't done work for Warrior and 2000AD, he'd never have been offered the DC gig in the first place and never have achieved the sort of clout that enables him to demand deals that are more favourable to him as a creator.

To be honest, I'd like to see Moore do an interview where he said "I'm grateful to Steve MacManus for hiring me and giving me a showcase for my work, so that I could piss of to work for the Americans on vastly increased money" instead of moaning about loss of rights that he chose to sign away.

Bah.

Jim

[Funt Solo]

What an excellent cover - the most thrilling thing about 2K or the Meg in the past couple of months, for me:

http://www.2000adonline.com/covers/megazine/hires/246.jpg" />

More of this sort of thing, please, your dual-Tharg Mightiness!

Did anyone else find the printing on Dredd to be faded on some pages?  (As in, some pages has black text, but some have grey text?)  I love and hate the art in equal measure.  That tank battle is excellent stuff, for example - totally zarjaz - but then Judge Dredd is some kind of hulk-beast balloon monster and that Cholo bloke is straight out of Final Fantasy.  What's going on?

Special mention to that fantastic article on Alan Moore - brilliant read, excellent presentation.

Funny ha ha from Sprout - what's he on about with Doctor Manhatten's willie?  Is this about which way he dresses?

Ruddler's Cuddlers is a great wee tale, but for Grud's sake, drop the black museum zombie as a bookend device for these stories.  They're good enough on their own, without a rotting Vector 13 clone stumbling around the place.

I Married Ghost Girl was the best from the small press so far - great art and a fun script - and a font we can actually read.  Okay, so it has a tricky third act, but at least it had acts.

Black Siddha's gone from being a great new strip with amazing potential, to a tedious Finn-clone.  Bah.

Gorgeous art in Fiends, and a good story, still building.  Hopefully, we'll get more time in the past, and less time in a tent, in future episodes.

Overall, the Meg just picked up the pace.

[Funt Solo]

::"To be honest, I'd like to see Moore do an interview where he said "I'm grateful to Steve MacManus for hiring me and giving me a showcase for my work, so that I could piss of to work for the Americans on vastly increased money" instead of moaning about loss of rights that he chose to sign away."

Ha.  Fair point.  I can't argue with that.

[Leigh S]

Yeah - the value of 2000AD as a window for Moore to get enable him into the position he's in is one that rarely comes up.

At the time, Alan didn't seem to be angry about being made to work for hire - he put his heart and soul into those strips, gave interviews about them, was passionate about them. I don't know the true facts, or have the releveant interview to ahnd but at some point in the 70s/early 80s, it was claimed that IPCs pay was pretty good compared to even the US publishers (possibly an exchange rate thing) and that IPC paid more as they factored in the "purchase" of the copyright. so presumably, if Alan did want them back, he'd be happy to give back the difference? It seems that the main reason a lot of creators jumped ship was because it gave thema  chance to work on their first love comics, and the exploitation of their works after the event created the rift.
At the time, the deal appears to have seemed reasonable or at least, not so bad that anyone muttered particularly darkly about it in the fanzines (and they weren't slow in coming forward back then).  

"Largely talentless chancers" is the phrase I'm familiar with, Jim!

[Floyd-the-k]

you're right that he (presumably) knew the terms when he signed the contract.  But so what? He's quite a drawcard now. Giving him the copyright back on the condition that he write more Halo Jones for 2000AD would be a good deal.
  As for this leading to the loss of Dredd/Strontium Dogs and so on, I don't see that that follows. You'd just have to say to the other creators 'you want the copyright to ABC warriors? Let's talk about it when you're as big a drawcard as Alan Moore' (or some polite version thereof.

anyway, what would I know, not a comics publisher or professional etc

[Roger Godpleton]

Cover: Really sticks out next to SFX et al in MK Smiths. Great Stuff.

Dredd: Great premise, although it is a bit too knowingly contemporary. I hope this lasts for several episodes, as it seems like this is a fairly major development in Dreddworld. I like the artwork, but it's a bit too "obvious" in places. Good Stuff.

Fiends: Bishop does a good job building everything up at a slow (but not ponderous)pace. Colin is lovely. Very Good Stuff

Mooremanshort: Best Meg article since TPO. If only they were all like this... Very Good Stuff.

Black Siddha: This is really annoying, TBH. This is like the opposite of the classic Mills stories, as the bizarre humour is detrimental to the whole caboodle. The whole thing seems like it's trying far too hard to be arch and witty. Also, why wouldn't Obi Wan just tell our hero the consequences of killing without "being told to"? And what happened to all that stuff about Earth being a prison for lobster monsters? Last time around we were exposed to Pat's views about Mental health, and a bunch of excrutiating scenes set in a brothel. Thus far, we don't seem to have any equivalent sub-plots, and so I won't feel physically angry whilst reading, but this is still a pretty unsettling (in a bad way) read. Really Bad Stuff.

Ghost Girl: I want to read more, so it obviously works. Good Stuff

Black Museum: Best use of this format yet, this reads like a Dreddworld Future Shock. The art is astonishing, I'd forgotten about Maley's greatness. Seemed a bit too grim towards the end, but not in a totally offensive way. Great Stuff.

10 things: Hilarious. I laughed till I cried. [sarcasm off]. REALLY Bad Stuff.

Overall: This feels like a return to the halycon days of 2004, where the Meg beat the Prog hands down every time. Keep up the Good Work!

[Leigh S]

"'you want the copyright to ABC warriors? Let's talk about it when you're as big a drawcard as Alan Moore' (or some polite version thereof."

But in real terms, the comics bread and butter has been Mills and Wagners characters, and the comic has survived with varying degrees of success without Alan Moores characters. Take away Dredd and the comic folds - take away Halo Jones and the comic carries on regardless.

I can't see how this would work in practice, anyhow - give Moore back the copyright and how long before he takes his Halo off to whichever company hasn't pissed him off that week?  

[IndigoPrime]

:: Fiends: Hurrah! This was much better on the lettering front.

It's still not exactly good though, and, for me, it's really beginning to distract from the story. Colin's a great artist, but I really wish someone else had lettered this, seeing as the kerning clearly needs sorting, and the font is terrible.


:: You don't like it, don't sign it. That simple.

Or argue the toss and try to get an improvement in your contract. I've managed that with freelance writing a few times, although it is pretty rare. Generally, you have to be resigned to losing your copyright, or at least having it "locked" for a year. Typically, reprint rights are a thing of dreams.


:: Although there was talk about Gibson buying the rightsa
:: to the tory and doing the writing and the art himself.

More like, Gibson wanted to write and illustrate the thing for 2000 AD. I don't recall him ever wanting to buy the rights. Frankly, after the nightmare that was Skizz III, I'd sooner let Halo Jones just stay as it is.


:: It's kind of odd to use hindsight to argue in defence
:: of something that happened in the 80s, where
:: perhaps creators who were just starting out didn't have a
:: full realisation or understanding of the consequences of
:: the deal.

If you don't understand a contract/work-for-hire deal, find someone who does and discuss it with them?simple as that.


::  Giving him the copyright back on the condition that he
:: write more Halo Jones for 2000AD would be a good deal.

Right up until the point that all the other creators realise a precedent has been set, demand their rights back too, leading to a loss of profits for 2000 AD, and possible eventual closure of the magazine. Really, this isn't worth Rebellion pursuing. Frankly, I doubt another book of Halo Jones would increase readership levels all that much anyway.