The Political Thread

[Jimmy Baker's Assistant]

I know further up the thread I advocated giving violent murder a go as a political philosophy, but that should not be taken as an endorsement of the Troubles, which I experienced first-hand and were a bit of a downer.
My observation is that we have... whatever it is we have right now because of how things played out, and some in similar situations tried a different tack and they didn't end up with the same thing as we did, so it can be equally claimed either way that the Troubles helped or hindered progress based on other examples of ethnic nationalist conflicts.

You have a good point. A few decades of violent stalemate probably did wear everyone down in the end.

These things are extraordinarily tricky because potential peacemakers have to take their whole community with them. It's why the Ulster Unionists and SDLP could never deliver peace but the DUP and Sinn Fein managed it (approximately). It's also why the peace process in Israel and Palestine is still such a clusterf*ck after all these years.

[ZenArcade]

My analysis is a wee bit different. The centre ground did in fact deliver an agreement in 1998. The IRA were pretty much riddled with informants by the mid 1990's and their political wing were offered a way out by John Hume. The DUP were politically marginalised in the 1998 talks and subsequent agreement.
The difficulty (as I see it) for the centre ground parties was: when Adams et al got their feet under the table they used the disarmament (decommissioning) issue to destabalise the initial agreement; this coupled with Paisley playing on deepset unionist fears led to the centre parties being bypassed by the British and Irish administrations resulting in the agreement mark 2, the St Andrews agreement more suited to what Sinn Fein and the DUP wanted.
This has led to a state of affairs where there is a marginalised and demoralised centre ground and 2 more extreme parties holding the reigns of power.
My issue with this is that the 1998 agreement was destabalised by the extremes. That when the extremes then took up their roles in the government they have quite simply not governed. This is through a mixture of sheer innate inability to so govern and a complete arrogant ambivelance towards carrying out their electoral remit, that is, serving their community.  We now resultingly have an assembly which has passed no meaningful legislation in years and is near the point of collapse. Z

[Jimmy Baker's Assistant]

As I'm not from NI I am sure you are better informed than me, ZenArcade.

I remember being somewhat appalled with the early DUP and SF Stormont victories, but I have since come to the view that the peace process without them wouldn't have much chance of success. Not that I've become a fan, I hasten to add, but it's clear they did/do represent a fair old section of each community.

Also, I would imagine it would be pretty hard for any government comprising of all elected parties to deliver too much in the way of legislation.

[Definitely Not Mister Pops]

I remember being somewhat appalled with the early DUP and SF Stormont victories, but I have since come to the view that the peace process without them wouldn't have much chance of success.

Only in the sense that they held the rest of us to ransom until they could get things their own way. It is not in either of these party's interests to genuinely reconcile the 2 communities here

[ZenArcade]

Well said King Pops...Z

[Definitely Not Mister Pops]

Thank you Mister ZenArcade.

[Theblazeuk]

You have to invite murderous bastards to the peace talks really.

[Dandontdare]

well, one bit of news has cheered me up - Andrew Mitchell has just lost his "plebgate" libel action and it's likely to cost him about £2m.

It probably won't cost him anywhere near that much. Rich people sell "shares" in their legal defence. Investors chip in to pay the legal bills in the hopes of getting a percentage of the winnings, just like trading on the stock market.
.
Doesn't this country just make you so proud?

Metro says it's £3m, Guardian says £1.5m, but even if he doesn't have to pay it all he's been officially and publicly confirmed as a lying arrogant cockweasel bully (I think that was in the judge's summing up actually!  )

[Richmond Clements]

You have to invite murderous bastards to the peace talks really.

My view also. You'll never get peace if you just talk to your friends.

[ZenArcade]

True, but when you get them to the table, it is generally not good negotiating strategy to sell the pass to them. In no way helped by your 'facilitators' i.e. the British and Irish administrations undermining you as the extremists are the only ones who can deliver....deliver what we ask, we are then told to be grateful there are no bombings, murders and whatever other horror they can visit on us. So I am grateful that our new masters aren't slaughtering us anymore; but if they aren't kept permanently in power then this could happen again. I swear to Christ, you couldn't make this lunacy up. Z

[Jimmy Baker's Assistant]

I don't think peace would have been possible without Paisley and Adams signing up to it (well, NI voters could have abandoned their parties en masse, but that has never seemed likely). I don't really agree that the British and Irish governments sold out to them, except that it was obvious everyone had to make serious concessions to make progress. Better that than continued violence.

[Professor Bear]

The reason extremists hold sway in the political process is because Northern Ireland was polorised along religious and political lines long before the current Assembly came along, and as a result there simply wasn't any middle ground of significance in the voting population with which to present an alternative to the parties composed of convicted murderers and sectarian bigots - who are arguably what constitutes the actual middle ground of Norn Iron politics, no matter what sanity says should be otherwise.

To put it another way: this place is a fucking shithole and we got the politicians we deserved.

[ZenArcade]

Oh AA on that point I'll agree...we got what we voted for in spades. Z

[Dandontdare]

a neo-nazi squaddie hoardes guns and ammunition and builds a pipe-bomb - he's just got 2 years as the prosecution said " it was accepted that rifleman McGee was not a terrorist or intended to help a terrorist group." Meanwhile people are being banged up for downloading books, travelling to other countries or simply expressing "radical" thoughts.

Glad to see that everybody is treated equally in this fair country.

[Theblazeuk]

Filibustering happens in Britain too??

God bloody strewth. Pathetic.