The Political Thread

[Dandontdare]

In the 70s we had an abundance of affordable housing and almost full employment, a working man could expect to have a job for life and support his family. The bosses of companies earned maybe 10 or 20 times what their most basic workers earned.

Now we have mass unemployment as a permanent fact of life, and those people lucky enough to have a job are likely to be on casual or zero-hour contracts. Three in four benefit claimants are workers who need to claim benefits as well because they cannot support the family on what they are paid. CEOs now earn 100-200 times what their workers earn. Many children of workers who were thrown on the scrapheap by Thatcher when entire industries were destroyed have never known employment in their household - this world of benefit-dependency that the ConDems are always banging on about is her legacy.

So yes, she "won" against the unions - and ever since, the rich have gotten richer, the poor have gotten poorer, the bosses shaft us time and again and then walk away with payoffs and pensions - and the people we blame are the unemployed! I work for a big company in an office and people are always  bitching about their pay and changes that are being made to shifts/holidays etc. The difference is that they feel absolutely powerless, they can't even conceive of a system in which they'd have a say in this.

[judgefloyd]

Why not put a lovely header above your link, like Racist Thatcher the truth is out!

I always love this sort of stuff from people who know you can't slander the dead and end up in court. I could waffle on about Australias navy not long ago stopping those same migrants trying to get into the country but that wouldn't be fair.

Why did he wait until now to say that, apart from not being able to be taken to court. He says that he couldn't believe what she said and luckily his wife was out of earshot, as she is Malaysian born. What a joke, if that had been me I'd have called her out and made her repeat it in front of my wife and other witnesses. That fact alone speaks volumes about the man if you ask me.
Very poor point put forward, must try harder!

By the way, I shall take all you lot going on about the milk song to task later. If you want to save me the trouble search the web and look at what Labour did the decade before and also why she was actually against stopping the milk. Damn I've given it all away

Facts do ruin things don't they!

Why didn't he say anything about it earlier?  Well everyone is giving their two cents about Thatcher, why shouldn't Bob Carr give his?
  I'm not sure what your point is in asking why he didn't make her repeat it in front of his wife.  Is picking fights with foreign dignitaries what politicians are supposed to do?It's great to hear that you'd have done it differently - that'll come in handy the next time a foreign PM drops in on the UK and says something to you that would offend your wife.  I don't have to worry about these situations myself; (a) because I married a Japanese, not a Malaysian and (b) because I don't meet Prime Ministers.

[Proudhuff]

A bit off topic, but I never really got my head round the 'Palace coup' that slung her out, without giving vent to the Giant Lizard school of thought, I'd be interested in what (some) of you think?

I know there is a general handwave about the Poll tax but that seems to be it, was it really Pat Mills greysuits?

[Frank]

I don't know how old Old Tankie actually is, but his description of the seventies sounds a lot more like the collective picture of the seventies drawn by TV and newspapers than a personal reminiscence, drawn from direct experience. I remember the regular power cuts he mentions (which lasted well into the eighties), but I'm sure I gained my knowledge of unburied bodies in seventies Liverpool from the same sources as he did.

I'm 56 next month which makes me more than old enough to remember the 70s personally ... You can't personally experience everything that happened in a decade all round the country!!  ... I do have personal experience about the "wonderful" pre-Thatcher days.  It's not me who's getting their history through the media.

That was my point, Tankie; your personal experience of the seventies is just that. Your impression of what happened in the wider world during that decade, on the other hand, is mediated by the same second hand sources as that of someone reading a newspaper account or a historical study of that time. For example, my Dad was a fireman at the time of the industrial action by the FBU to which you refer; consequently I have a very different personal experience and opinion of that episode than your own. That doesn't invalidate your experience of those events anymore than yours invalidates mine; all it proves is that subjective experience differs wildly, and that the only real way of discussing such matters is a sober analysis of the facts.

Any appraisal of the Thatcher government's response to the appalling industrial unrest which afflicted the country in the seventies has to also take into account the fact that the process of deregulation of the financial sector (continued by successive administrations) led directly to the greatest depression in recorded history, and that adjusting the balance of power in favour of employers has resulted in a situation where real-terms income for the majority of people are falling, and the incomes of those workers in the bottom 60% of earnings have been falling for the last three decades.  Whether you think our current difficulties are any better or worse than than those of the seventies probably depends on your own subjective experience and what you read in the papers.

[COMMANDO FORCES]

If you think the Oz situation couldn't be resolved on the spot diplomatically then so be it. If this did happen and he was terrified that it would've caused a diplomatic incident, probably along the lines of when some Oz bird touched the back of the Queen the other year, then god help us all.

It really is quite simple I would've thought. The racist Thatcher says her piece and he does a polite laugh. He then says to Maggie something along the lines of 'You must say that to my wife, she will love that' and then he introduces her. Now that wouldn't cause a major incident would it!

Now if he was so terrified that we would invade because of this, why not wait until the next day and go on the news about it then. I refer you to my earlier post about not being sued by the dead.

Anyone seen the info about the Milk Snatcher bollocks yet, interesting that isn't it

And one last thing, I agree the bosses are getting richer and that is bad and strangely the gap widened faster under LABOUR. They are all as bad as each other and when  people go on about Blair being Tory, then every Labour MP must've been Tory as well. Perhaps they would just obey him and do ANYTHING to get into power!

As for the houses, I take you again to an earlier post. Did those Labour councils build new homes with the money they earned from selling the council stock off!!!!

I work for an average wage, so all these horrible things should be killing me but somehow they don't. Plus, why should you have a job for life. What happens when your company is being undercut by a competitor, do you cut your prices and cut them again because that in the end would make your wages impossible to pay!

I left the forces and was prepared to do any job just to pay the mortgage and managed to get a job that was enjoyable and after a long time was made redundant, along with everyone else of the 100+ workforce and I was the SHOP STEWARD (I bet that shocked you all) and so had loads of stuff to sort out for everyone else as well as look for a new job myself.
I cried my eyes out and cursed the Labour government, the company, the new company that took the contract away, baby Jesus, Santa, Manchester United, etc... I lie, I didn't blame anyone, I just looked for another job and got on with it as that my good friends is life in this evil world!

[Frank]

I work for an average wage, so all these horrible things should be killing me but somehow they don't. Plus, why should you have a job for life. What happens when your company is being undercut by a competitor, do you cut your prices and cut them again because that in the end would make your wages impossible to pay!

I left the forces and was prepared to do any job just to pay the mortgage and managed to get a job that was enjoyable and after a long time was made redundant, along with everyone else of the 100+ workforce and I was the SHOP STEWARD (I bet that shocked you all) and so had loads of stuff to sort out for everyone else as well as look for a new job myself. I cried my eyes out and cursed the Labour government, the company, the new company that took the contract away, baby Jesus, Santa, Manchester United, etc... I lie, I didn't blame anyone, I just looked for another job and got on with it as that my good friends is life in this evil world!

That doesn't surprise me at all, John; you have the organising instinct, sense of community and bolshie streak that make a good shop steward.

People tend to discuss these matters in absolute terms; the behaviour of unions across Europe in the seventies was out of hand and unrealistic, but economies like Sweden and Germany managed to negotiate their way out of similar difficulties to our own without the social and political division experienced here. In Sweden today, union membership is still as high among executives as it is among their employees, disputes are resolved through collective bargaining, and they managed to reform working practices without doing away with almost the entire industrial sector of their economy, as we did.

I think the crucial difference might be that their unions are unaffiliated to a particular political party, and the fact that UK unions and associated industries were targeted by cuts which were driven as much by ideology and political self-interest as they were by practical reality is probably as much a fault of the unions and their financial control of the Parliamentary Labour Party as it is of the Thatcher government.

[Dandontdare]

I agree the bosses are getting richer and that is bad and strangely the gap widened faster under LABOUR. They are all as bad as each other and when  people go on about Blair being Tory, then every Labour MP must've been Tory as well. Perhaps they would just obey him and do ANYTHING to get into power!

As for the houses, I take you again to an earlier post. Did those Labour councils build new homes with the money they earned from selling the council stock off!!!!

So you agree Thatcher fucked the country, but Labour didn't put things right?

WE AGREE 100%!  When John Smith died and Blair's cabal created the tory-lite monstrosity that is New labour by ditching clause IV and (and all their left wing principles) we were well and truly screwed - but he was only apeing Thatcherism, so them  outcome of Thatcher + Blair is the situation w have today.

[COMMANDO FORCES]

You need your eyesight testing. I never said she fucked the country, I seem to be okay on the average wage and living in one of the most expensive parts of the country.

If some people want to feel as they are victims all the time well good for them. Maggie gave everyone the chance to better themselves, some people took it and others didn't. I wonder who we can blame for that!

If you voted for Blairs Labour lot three times then look deep inside yourself, especially if you are true left. I'm sure you could've voted for some socialist person on the ballot form but then again voting for socialism is a wasted vote as it doesn't work. North Korea anyone!

Don't keep blaming Thatcher for todays so called ills. There must've been a few true left wing MP's in that Blair lot when they got into power, why didn't they stand up with the unions and shout Blair down. I shall tell you why because they became hypocrites and wanted to cling to power at the cost of their beliefs and the left kept voting for them. I rest my case!

[vzzbux]

Slightly off the Thatcher Debate.
These benefit cuts seem to be having some positive effect. The work shy scumbag that lives next to my mum looks like he has got himself a job.
If he can get a job (finally after years of not trying) then there must be some out there.





V

[Richmond Clements]

Anyone seen the info about the Milk Snatcher bollocks yet, interesting that isn't it

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/uk/2000/uk_confidential/1095121.stm

Responding to the demands to end free school milk, Mrs Thatcher said: "I think that the complete withdrawal of free milk for our school children would be too drastic a step and would arouse more widespread public antagonism than the saving justifies."

She proposed the compromise, later accepted, that milk would only be available to pupils in nursery and primary schools.

So, yes, she only withdrew it from some schools. The woman was a saint.

[COMMANDO FORCES]

Just like when the Labour party withdrew it from all secondary schools the decade earlier. Labour are saints too

[Richmond Clements]

Just like when the Labour party withdrew it from all secondary schools the decade earlier. Labour are saints too

Really don't see the point you're trying to make here.

[Zarjazzer]

I fear all she and her wretched credo will ultimately bring is the war of all against all.

[COMMANDO FORCES]

All the parties are as bad as each other in the end. This thread is constantly a point of hilarity for me as it seems to be an area where people like to constantly bemoan the tories and all the evils that only they have done. I pop on now and again just to point out, as I said above it's all parties!

All you have to do is look around the web and you will see points that show how all these parties do their dirty work but some people can't be bothered and just cherry pick points to their own end.

I think this latest bout all stemmed from the champagne socialist Billy and his points and so I placed up the counter argument which showed yet again that all the parties are doing the same thing.

Thatcher stole the milk from children in the 70's but that was under orders of the cabinet. The decade before the Labour party stopped (see how I don't write stole) the milk for secondary schools but you don't see that getting spouted out because it ruins some people points.

[Dandontdare]

people like to constantly bemoan the tories and all the evils that only they have done.

Show me one post in this thread slagging off Thatcher that says ONLY she was evil or claims that labour are saints.