The Political Thread

[Jim_Campbell]

The turnout, if anything, showed that despite what we are often told, people care passionately about politics. They just don't care about politicians.

I'm not even convinced it even shows us this. What it shows us (IMO) is that when you put an actual choice before the electorate, they engage, debate, become enthused and turn out.

When you present them with a selection of parties whose manifestos are all peddling broadly the same neolib, free market, austerity agenda with a few minor concessions to their traditional support base around the edges... well, why would you get enthused? You want to know why UKIP are getting so much support even though their policies are BARKING MAD? It's because they're the only party* not promising more of the same.

I've linked to it before, and I'm going to keep linking to it because it's so desperately relevant — if you've already read it, my apologies, but voter apathy is a direct result of the focus-group-driven political model that's given us the Beige Dictatorship.

Cheers

Jim

*Well, there's the Greens, with whom I have a lot of sympathy and whose complete lack of media coverage speaks to systemic bias in the media.

[Dudley]

The turnout, if anything, showed that despite what we are often told, people care passionately about politics. They just don't care about politicians.

I'm not even convinced it even shows us this. What it shows us (IMO) is that when you put an actual choice before the electorate, they engage, debate, become enthused and turn out.

When you present them with a selection of parties whose manifestos are all peddling broadly the same neolib, free market, austerity agenda with a few minor concessions to their traditional support base around the edges... well, why would you get enthused? You want to know why UKIP are getting so much support even though their policies are BARKING MAD? It's because they're the only party* not promising more of the same.

I've linked to it before, and I'm going to keep linking to it because it's so desperately relevant — if you've already read it, my apologies, but voter apathy is a direct result of the focus-group-driven political model that's given us the Beige Dictatorship.

Cheers

Jim

*Well, there's the Greens, with whom I have a lot of sympathy and whose complete lack of media coverage speaks to systemic bias in the media.

Absolutely agree with you - if I were dictator the first thing I'd do would be to outlaw all forms of opinion polling. 

Well, the first thing after the death of my enemies and the lamentations of their women, anyway.

[Steve Green]

Something which I hadn't considered is that a proportion of the voters in the referendum are going to be ineligible to vote in the general election, aren't they?

[Jim_Campbell]

Something which I hadn't considered is that a proportion of the voters in the referendum are going to be ineligible to vote in the general election, aren't they?

All the ones who voted 'yes' if the Tory back-benchers had their way...

Cheers

Jim

[Ghost MacRoth]

Something which I hadn't considered is that a proportion of the voters in the referendum are going to be ineligible to vote in the general election, aren't they?

Would make no difference, our votes count for nothing anyway.  Remove the Scottish votes from every general election back to the 50's, and not a single result would change.

[Jim_Campbell]

make no difference, our votes count for nothing anyway.  Remove the Scottish votes from every general election back to the 50's, and not a single result would change.

1: That's not true, and not even that Wings over Scotland page that everyone uses to make that claim actually says that.

2: That's not actually a useful way to think about democracy. I lived for twenty years in a safe Labour seat. Because there was no chance it would ever change hands, it never materially affected the result of any general election. Does that mean my vote didn't count? What matters is whether or not I got the government I wanted. Sometimes I did, sometimes I didn't. That's how democracies work.

This (pro-independence, FWIW) page takes a more in-depth look at the same basic numbers as the Wings over Scotland one, and draws some interesting conclusions.

Saying your votes aren't the deciding ones, isn't the same as saying you never get the government you vote for.

Jim

[Steve Green]

That wasn't really what I was getting at.

More it seems a bit odd to have 16/17 year olds able to vote on something as important as independence, but not a 5 year term of government.

You also lose out on the momentum of having them vote one year, and not the other - the answer would seem to be to lower the voting age UK-wide.

[Theblazeuk]

I'd approve.

Average 16-year old is no more of an idiot than most 20 year olds, just in different ways. Certainly no more likely to either be idealistic or slavishly in thrall to their family's beliefs.

[Recrewt]

The turnout, if anything, showed that despite what we are often told, people care passionately about politics. They just don't care about politicians.

I'm not even convinced it even shows us this. What it shows us (IMO) is that when you put an actual choice before the electorate, they engage, debate, become enthused and turn out.

We were talking about this in the pub last night and it's interesting how this particular vote encourages participation.  Obviously, it's a subject that many Scottish people are interested in so if they felt strongly either way then there is the motivation to vote.  However, even if you are not sure and just think let's keep it as is, you are still motivated to go as you know that doing nothing could mean that it goes against you.

[Grugz]

one thing I wondered if it had gone "yes" what would have happened to various things such as the nhs or even the armed forces based up there ? would everything have automatically become property of or would mr salmon have had to start charging for health services and start conscripting the locals? or as most politicians did they not think tat far ahead?

[Banners]

one thing I wondered if it had gone "yes" what would have happened to various things such as the nhs or even the armed forces based up there?

We'll never know...

[Modern Panther]

Intention was for the Armed forces to transfer to the Scottish Defence Force : no nukes, more small surface ships, conventional forces aimed at defending the coastline and oilrigs, less on fighting wars abroad, bsed in Faslane to make up for jobs lost in the area.

Nhs is already devolved, so little change was likely - although SNP championed free prescriptions and free personal care for the elderly. They ve also stood again TTIP in healthcare.

Its a wonderful dream, with shortbread and tartan rainbows for all.  But, hey-ho, time to pull together as a nation again...

[Fungus]

one thing I wondered if it had gone "yes" what would have happened to various things such as the nhs or even the armed forces based up there ? would everything have automatically become property of or would mr salmon have had to start charging for health services and start conscripting the locals? or as most politicians did they not think tat far ahead?

It's to the credit of many that these were exactly the questions being put in the final days and weeks. The politicians were forced to at least squirm, as they were pressed on the detail. Head counts of soldiers, etc. all demanded answers and stones were unturned. Question evasion was called-out and
democracy won. I reckon, anyway. Compare this with Westminster elections...

[Tombo]

one thing I wondered if it had gone "yes" what would have happened to various things such as the nhs or even the armed forces based up there?

We'll never know...

According to someone over on MilitaryPhotos.net it's already been decided:-

c.2'500 troops + 500 reserves
"light" armour (Scimitar light tanks or similar)
2 stripped down (i.e. no missiles) frigates,
1 replenishment ship
a few mine-countermeasure vessels
a few patrol boats
12 Typhoons (ha-ha, not gonna happen unless their Tranche 1),
a small number of C-130 Hercules transports.

No mention of logistics units (engineers, transport units etc.) or where such forces would be based.

[Dudley]

Looks like the net result of this referendum will be that Scotland gets the powers it wants, but at the expense of Scottish MPs having a say on English/Welsh/N. Irish affairs, and quite possibly also at the expense of the Barnett formula.  The result of which will be that the main economy of the UK will be run by the Conservatives in perpetuity.  Holyrood will have to set up its supposedly more Scottish large welfare state in direct competition with an England dedicated to low tax - meaning all businesses that can will flee south at very little cost.  This was never going to end well - and it hasn't.