I haven't enjoyed the Prog for weeks. Prog 1850, this week's jumping-on issue, lies unloved in my living room. I can't find the energy to read it. I haven't felt this way about the Prog since the dark days of Soul Sisters etc. And I know why.
It's hard to verbalize, so bear with me.
I know 2000ad is an anthology. That is it's strength. If you don't like a story this week, then another will be along soon that you do like.
But, under the guise of an anthology there are two kinds of strip that appear in 2000ad. (Three if you count one-offs, like a Future Shock or 3riller).
First, you get repeat strips. These are old fashioned strips that centre around a character. Dredd. Strontium Dog. Slaine (apart from the insult of Book of Scars). Sinister Dexter. The essence of a strip like this is that, in essence, it is the same story: Dredd chases perps; Johnny Alpha chases a bounty; Slaine chases monsters; SinDex do a hit. They are a constant.
These stories are instantly familiar to concurrent or lapsed readers. New readers can get the set up pretty quick. They can be written by a number of different writers. They are as close to Marvel/ DC stuff as 2000ad gets, in as much as they centre around a character and a premise.
Then, second, you get story strips. These are strips that exist to tell a single narrative. When it's done, it's done. Unlike repeat strips, there is no new tale in the same universe. I'm thinking here of Brass Sun, Blackhawk, Meltdown Man or Red Seas.
Both have their place in the comic. But, increasingly, more and more of the second kind of story is coming to the prog. Given it's weekly nature, and the very long gaps between the blocks that make up a story, what you end up with is a disjointed story that makes me confused and jaded.
Age of the Wolf, The Ten Seconders, Defoe and Damnation Station are all the most recent examples of this.
I look at them and think "oh, this. What was it that happened the last time?" Then I struggle through the opening episode of a new book and have no clue what is going on.
I think the prog needs more balance. Back in the 80s and 90s, there were always two or three strips that were "repeat strips". This is what I would like to see again: some consitent strips that have a familiar background that don't want to tell an epic story and be done. That, by the way, is not to say that they cannot be epic. Rather, what I am getting at is that they don't say what they have to say and then end - but instead they have a universe and characters that can come back again and again.
Without this, I feel the soul of the prog is missing.
I'm not not enjoying the prog (if you see what I mean) but I take your point entirely.
Slaine was always a bit more episodic, but, once upon a time, Strontium Dog, Rogue Trooper, Robo Hunter and Ace Trucking were semi-permanent residents, sitting in the prog for stints of six months at a time and they helped solidify the character of the comic. A series that does ten episodes and then it's gone for a year-and-a-half is much harder to develop affection for.
I'm fairly convinced that Sin/Dex's popularity was, in large part, due to its semi-permanent residency in the earlier phase of the strip's life, and Dante always worked best on longer runs as well, IMO.
Of course, the key problem with this is that you either have to have a rotating team of artists, or one artist who can maintain a weekly schedule and who you can rely on not to run off and work for an American publisher as soon as someone wafts an Image book under their noses...
Cheers
Jim
I know what you mean, but it's different for everyone. There's been a constant moaning that everything's shite in the prog review threads for weeks now, but I've been enjoying it the same as usual - more, because of Wagner and Willsher on Dredd. By contrast, when everyone was lapping up Trifecta and associated works and hailing the continuation of Tharg's second golden age, I just thought the prog was alright.
Like you say, it's the nature of the format that whatever balance you choose you can never please everyone. Judge Jack mentions on another thread that he never had much time for Slaine, and I like Rogue Trooper but always got bored of his stories long before they wound up - imagine how readers such as ourselves must have felt during the long periods when either of those returning strips dominated the prog.
I jumped around 2003, after years of Sinister Dexter and Nicolai Dante being constant presences in the weekly. Neither ever really did it for me, and it was clear they would be the future of the comic for years to come.
There have been a few character strips over the last few years that have had potential and then disappeared.
I think Grey Area could be great and see no reason why different writers and artists couldn't take on stories in that universe. Is it creator owned by Dan Abnett?
Lobster Random and Harry Kipling could be brought back too. I still think there's potential in Samantha Slade's adventures but the character seems rather unpopular.
I agree with Dr X, and I think it's more a case that you've got a relatively small band of scriptwriters producing multiple strips in the prog, as well as any external commitments.
Dredd is the only strip that has a selection of scriptwriters - everything else is handled by a single person.
I'm not sure if this is a conscious decision stemming from when other writers taking over a character didn't go well.
If you've got 3 people working on Trifecta, maybe another (new) strip shared by 2 people working on the script would be an idea?
I don't know - just throwing out ideas.
Maybe what we have now is the least worst option, but I can certainly see the problem with these long arcs which disappear for such a long time.
I wrote this long post comparing this perceived change to a change seen in comics in general and other storytelling media, telly in particular but even film. All my blathering has been lost to the mists of the internet error nether-worlds but can be summed up by asking is it not merely reflecting changes we see elsewhere in the wider world of storytelling?
The gap between 'books' is frustrating, certainly, and there's nothing like giving a series time to build up a head of steam. On the other hand I enjoy the variety and the sense of expectation that a more diverse rotation brings - I'm literally gagging to read more Damnation Station*, Brass Sun, Flesh and Kingdom, and can't wait to get back to more recent visitors like Defoe, Crucis and Stickleback. I know and appreciate the lament that folk can't remember what happened last time, but there are so many ways round that problem that it doesn't bother me, and as I'm also fond of noting many of us can't seem to remember what happened last prog anyway...
As it happens I have been enjoying the Prog a great deal over the last good while, not least because of the strength of the 1-3 part shorts. I find myself groaning when a double episode is announced, because Tharg could have squeezed a Byrne, a Bailie, a Worley, a Kek-W, a Taylor or an Eglington in there.
*Which had originally looked like it was going to take up a long residency, but now alas will not.
Quote from: Colin_YNWA on 15 September, 2013, 03:01:31 PM
I wrote this long post comparing this perceived change to a change seen in comics in general and other storytelling media, telly in particular but even film. All my blathering has been lost to the mists of the internet error nether-worlds but can be summed up by asking is it not merely reflecting changes we see elsewhere in the wider world of storytelling?
Well, there is that - I love story arcs, but I can quite see how off-putting it can be for new viewers who can't dip into a TV show any more, they've really got to start from the beginning.
It's more problematic for the reader an anthology though as you can't buy a digital trade of a single story to get up to speed.
Quote from: Steve Green on 15 September, 2013, 04:22:29 PM
It's more problematic for the reader an anthology though as you can't buy a digital trade of a single story to get up to speed.
Which raises the issue 'why not?'. Right now I can
illegally read digital versions of any 2000AD back prog and many complete collections by character and strip despite my country's laughable 'blocking' of Pirate Bay. Would it not make sense if I could
legitimately get digital collections of at least the previous 'book' of each series until such time as it appears in a 'proper' trade?
Not really what I mean.
What I'm getting at is, where are the universes? The concepts and characters that are sandboxes, allowing a variety of stories to be told without the thing ending?
Dredd, Stront, SinDex, Slaine.
What about the last 15 years? What new ones have started?
They don't need to have the same creative team; they should be able to function with different inputs. They should, actually, thrive without them
Quote from: TordelBack on 15 September, 2013, 04:40:53 PM
Quote from: Steve Green on 15 September, 2013, 04:22:29 PM
It's more problematic for the reader an anthology though as you can't buy a digital trade of a single story to get up to speed.
Which raises the issue 'why not?'. Right now I can illegally read digital versions of any 2000AD back prog and many complete collections by character and strip despite my country's laughable 'blocking' of Pirate Bay. Would it not make sense if I could legitimately get digital collections of at least the previous 'book' of each series until such time as it appears in a 'proper' trade?
I suppose it's just a matter of what Rebellion pitch their efforts into with limited resources and this is a low priority.
Quote from: The Enigmatic Dr X on 15 September, 2013, 04:48:27 PM
Not really what I mean.
What I'm getting at is, where are the universes? The concepts and characters that are sandboxes, allowing a variety of stories to be told without the thing ending?
Dredd, Stront, SinDex, Slaine.
What about the last 15 years? What new ones have started?
They don't need to have the same creative team; they should be able to function with different inputs. They should, actually, thrive without them
I think there are plenty that could be told or use that world, the problem is that some have a specific voice - e.g. Zombo, you can rule out anything by Pat because of his views on the matter.
Kingdom seems to be the most obvious sandbox tale - I don't know what the agreements are when creating a new strip, it just seems to be the norm that the creator sticks with the strip, even though it's work for hire - maybe it makes for an easier working relationship and development of the strip.
Quote from: Steve Green on 15 September, 2013, 05:11:45 PM
I suppose it's just a matter of what Rebellion pitch their efforts into with limited resources and this is a low priority.
Absolutely, but if there
is a problem with discontinuity in the episodic series, and I see it here so often in the calls for recap episodes etc. that I suspect that there must be, it might be an avenue to explore with whatever resources they can muster. It can't be
that time-consuming to throw together a no-frills digital archive of a recent strip from existing files, surely? Spotty oiks seem to manage reasonable-quality versions within minutes of each release.
Quote from: JamesC on 15 September, 2013, 02:53:20 PM
There have been a few character strips over the last few years that have had potential and then disappeared.
I think Grey Area could be great and see no reason why different writers and artists couldn't take on stories in that universe. Is it creator owned by Dan Abnett?
Lobster Random and Harry Kipling could be brought back too. I still think there's potential in Samantha Slade's adventures but the character seems rather unpopular.
As sauchie points out I felt I had to walk the plank on 2000ad weekly around 2003. Too sad to recall really.
In a sort of related way - do you not think Wagner might have made a mistake in wiping out MC1? Before , there was the city and it's stories...now , it just seems meh...
Don't get me wrong , I do like some of the stories that have come along since DoC , but at least with the Apocalypse War and Necropolis et al there was at least a population to recover.
Quote from: strontium71 on 15 September, 2013, 05:37:31 PM
In a sort of related way - do you not think Wagner might have made a mistake in wiping out MC1?
I think the mistake was less him virtually wiping out MC-1 and more him not writing the immediate follow-up stories to show how the new set-up was going to work. Hard to blame the other writers for not quite knowing where to go with it initially.
Quote from: sauchie on 15 September, 2013, 02:46:16 PM
I jumped around 2003, after years of Sinister Dexter and Nicolai Dante being constant presences in the weekly. Neither ever really did it for me, and it was clear they would be the future of the comic for years to come.
And there, I suppose, is the argument against. It
is an anthology. No point looking for some constants if it alienates readers who want it to change.
It's the biggest complaint I have about the prog too but I put that down to the nature of the beast that is an anthology especially when people have other, sometimes more profitable, jobs on the go meaning long gaps between some strips.
I'm glad someone mentioned Grey Area as that really felt like a slow burning strip that could run for a long time to build up it's universe, yet it ended before anything could really happen with no sign of return.
Feels like I've been waiting ages for Brass Sun to return, so much so I think I'm gonna go dig out the last progs to re-read the first part.
Quote from: strontium71 on 15 September, 2013, 05:37:31 PM
In a sort of related way - do you not think Wagner might have made a mistake in wiping out MC1? Before , there was the city and it's stories...now , it just seems meh ... Don't get me wrong , I do like some of the stories that have come along since DoC , but at least with the Apocalypse War and Necropolis et al there was at least a population to recover.
I'm not sure I've read any post-Chaos Day story which couldn't have happened before those cataclysmic events. I'm not sure what kind of stories
can't be told, now that MC1
only has the same population as the UK did in 1960. Wagner seems to have used those events to bring the tech level down to something like his original conception of a fascist cop in New York of the near future, but we've had sub-aqua Dredd, cyborg super assassins and magic drugs which make everyone behave themselves from the rest of the regular roster of writers.
Wagner seems less interested in goofy sci-fi ideas than cop drama in general these days, but that's presumably offsetting the fact that the Dark Judges will be along in just a few months time to make everything very silly again.
Quote from: The Enigmatic Dr X on 15 September, 2013, 05:59:39 PM
It is an anthology. No point looking for some constants if it alienates readers who want it to change.
It feels pitched right to me. Been back with the prog 12 months now and it feels more choppy than back in the 80s. That
might be perception of course. A mix of 5 and 11/12-parters (approx.) recently means nothing <cough>wolves</cough> overstays its welcome, really.
Seems that in Olden Times the strips were 4 pages, black & white, and a roster of (top) artists could keep
storyline after storyline going. My understanding is that circulation has been dropping forever (?) and Rebellion don't have an easy task - I trust them to deliver, doing a fine job from where I'm sitting.
Looking forward to all-change on 1850 on Wednesday...
Quote from: Greg M. on 15 September, 2013, 05:58:06 PM
I think the mistake was less him virtually wiping out MC-1 and more him not writing the immediate follow-up stories to show how the new set-up was going to work. Hard to blame the other writers for not quite knowing where to go with it initially.
Doof! The head of the nail you've just hit is buried so far into the wood I can't even see it anymore, Mr
M.
Quote from: sauchie on 15 September, 2013, 06:17:38 PM
Quote from: Greg M. on 15 September, 2013, 05:58:06 PM
I think the mistake was less him virtually wiping out MC-1 and more him not writing the immediate follow-up stories to show how the new set-up was going to work. Hard to blame the other writers for not quite knowing where to go with it initially.
Doof! The head of the nail you've just hit is buried so far into the wood I can't even see it anymore, Mr M.
Mmm-hmmm.
TBH, if the destruction of MC-1
does become a problem over the long run, there are many ways it could be repopulated, and that in itself could be a source of stories.
Oh, look, my favorite subject!
Honestly, and I hate, hate *hate* to say this, but for all the amazing things that Smith has brought to the comic as editor, this is the big sticking point that aggravates the daylights out of me so much. Age of the Wolf: 29 episodes over four years. This is maddening. These should have been 29 episodes over 29 weeks. Damnation Station: 30 episodes over five years instead of thirty weeks. Finish it and move it out. Make room for what appears to be ongoing, character-based stories.
It's sometimes confusing because our editor refers to each "run" as a series, as British television does, but I call each one a "story" instead. I always like to make a distinction, as Dr. X did, between a SERIES - Strontium Dog, Indigo Prime, Sin Dex - and a SERIAL - a one-off about the event rather than an ongoing cast, like Leviathan, Firekind, or Cradlegrave. The problem is that we have these fragmented SERIALS drawn out over years instead of punched in over the course of a single story. You're absolutely right that AotW, Damnation Station, Ten-Seconders (and so on) have a hell of a hard time when they return after months or years away.
When we were kids and we (a) had the free time to reread each prog many times each week and (b) didn't have the Real Adult World taking up valuable real estate in our brain that should be devoted to thrillpower, this might not have been a problem. But as much as I'd like to remember who the hell the supporting cast of Defoe is, like I once did all them ABC Warriors, I just can't do it.
One Solution:
In Prog 2014, there should be a survey. It should include the title of EVERY series in 2000 AD's stable that might conceivably be turned into an every-single-week recurring thrill. EVERY one of them. Devlin Waugh. Dandridge. Grey Area. Absalom. EVERY one. Poll the readers on what they'd like to see EVERY week alongside Dredd. Let this be the lineup for the year 2015 (I don't think for a minute this train can be turned around in less than a year.) 2015 should have two slots for recurring series that are in for damn near the whole year. The other two slots kept as-is.
Take the winner and phone the writer. Say those in the paragraph above are our top four. Phone John Smith. Does he want to write 45-50 episodes of Devlin Waugh for 2015? If he says no, go to the next one. Match two artists. Repeat until you've got the two recurring series. Maybe that's enough to wrap that series up for good. I have no idea what Gordon Rennie plans for Absalom or Aquila. Maybe he sees one of them running for hundreds of episodes and maybe he sees one running for... well, about five more stories of about 8 or 9 episodes? Great. Commission 'em. Write 'em. Finish it up.
We never fell in love with Johnny Alpha because he caught one bounty every couple of years, Tharg.
I think Nikolai Dante's departure has created a thrill vacuum that has yet to be filled
Quote from: Grant Goggans on 15 September, 2013, 06:32:10 PM
One Solution: In Prog 2014, there should be a survey. It should include the title of EVERY series in 2000 AD's stable that might conceivably be turned into an every-single-week recurring thrill. EVERY one of them. EVERY one. Poll the readers on what they'd like to see EVERY week alongside Dredd. Let this be the lineup for the year 2015
Aye, but folk vote for what they
think they want. Most people are convinced that Rogue Trooper would work if they brought it back -
I can't see why it wouldn't - but it never has.
Some ace points here and creative solutions to a really tricky problem. One simple idea is us fans writing a "The Story So Far..." post. If it's any good, maybe the mods stickying it in the prog thread or even having a new area on the forum just for this? It'd help a lot of newbies and jog the memories of us older folk.
If GTA wasn't coming out this week I'd have happily one one for Damnation Station...
I haven't been enjoying the prog for a while now, but to be completely fair to the creators I don't actually read it, I roll it up and hammer it into my urethra with a brandy bottle.
Quote from: Grant Goggans on 15 September, 2013, 06:32:10 PMPhone John Smith. Does he want to write 45-50 episodes of Devlin Waugh for 2015? If he says no,
... lock him in a room with no food or water until he agrees otherwise.
Quote from: Professor James T Bear on 15 September, 2013, 07:12:03 PM
I haven't been enjoying the prog for a while now, but to be completely fair to the creators I don't actually read it, I roll it up and hammer it into my urethra with a brandy bottle.
Crying with laughter here.
Although to be fair I'm also listening to Tim Minchen.
Quote from: Grant Goggans on 15 September, 2013, 06:32:10 PM
Poll the readers on what they'd like to see EVERY week alongside Dredd. Let this be the lineup for the year 2015 (I don't think for a minute this train can be turned around in less than a year.) 2015 should have two slots for recurring series that are in for damn near the whole year. The other two slots kept as-is.
Uhh then 2000ad can do its own version of something else from popular media, the fan vote, interactive comics. I'm quite sure there would be all sorts of practical problems to prevent this but it all sounds such fun.
In many ways there's strong evidence for this type of thing working so well in the past. In the rocky days of the early 00s the addition of regulars Sinister Dexter and Nikolai Dante really turned the good ship around and got it moving in the right direction after what is often seem as the comics worst period in history. The thing is 2000ad has such a strong line up these days the pressure to do this type of thing just might not be there in the way it was in those dark days.
Brass Sun returns this week and I cannot remember anything about the last run apart from it's a big clockwork solar system. I often end up drifting away from strips for this reason.
But do you not think that this weeks episode of Brass Sun (if you have read it as a sub?) is a great example of how you don't need to have read all that's gone before. It brings you up to date brilliantly while still telling a good story. So many stories do that these days I don't get the problem. If they don't its just poor writing or a reader expecting to have ever detail of every little thing that's happened?
I'm not enjoying the prog as much as I used to either. At first I thought I was getting too old for it, but now I see it's not just me. I can't really add much to what's been said already - for me, it's mainly the lack of Dante (though of course he MUST NOT ever be brought back) and post DoC Dredd.
It's usually the way: If Dredd's good, the prog's good. At the moment Dredd is just ok. And it's mainly because of what's already been said here once again. DoC had a magnificent ending but it just hasn't been addressed seriously enough for my liking. Necropolis and the Apocalypse War paved the way properly for hugely interesting new directions for Dredd (Well, until Ennis came along, but now is not the time). Dredd's kind of meandering at the moment when the potential for original and entertaining storylines is huge.
Quote from: flesario on 15 September, 2013, 08:34:10 PM
Brass Sun returns this week and I cannot remember anything about the last run apart from it's a big clockwork solar system. I often end up drifting away from strips for this reason.
I'd say that more suggests you likely didn't enjoy Brass Sun much last time (which is fine) - it was a very clear, very memorable story, with a handful of distinctive characters, and it hasn't been gone too long either (certainly no longer than the shortest gap between any series of prose novels).
I know we all have limited time and innumerable distractions compared to when we were monomaniacal 10 year olds, but as readers we have to take
some responsibility for paying attention and keeping track. There's no model I can think of where creators can tell rich distinctive stories at any length without there being interruptions and
some requirement to remember what happened previously - even if that is just grabbing a handful of back-progs or posting a query here.
Quote from: TordelBack on 15 September, 2013, 09:31:09 PM
Quote from: flesario on 15 September, 2013, 08:34:10 PM
Brass Sun returns this week and I cannot remember anything about the last run apart from it's a big clockwork solar system. I often end up drifting away from strips for this reason.
I'd say that more suggests you likely didn't enjoy Brass Sun much last time (which is fine) - it was a very clear, very memorable story, with a handful of distinctive characters, and it hasn't been gone too long either
Aye,
Brass Sun had a pretty clear and simple storyline - I remember it being quite warmly received at the time, but loads of folk seem nonplussed by its return. I think the oddly anticlimactic ending might not have helped, but all the characters were really well drawn (literally and figuratively) and I'm delighted to see the return of the Duke.
Personally, I pretty much always start skim reading twelve part stories after about a month, then regain interest nearer the end or when I have a complete read through once they're completely done. Unless you're Wagner, or Mills on his best form, it's really difficult to hold any reader's attention for almost
a quarter of a year.
That's one of the reasons I'm not fussed by the idea of 25 week residencies for strips, and the churn of six or 12 part stories means there's usually something new starting just as I'm losing interest in a strip which is bogged down in second act scenery moving.
Max Bubba/Rage is one of my favourite things ever, but I read it in my pal's back progs in a single sitting. I'm not sure if it would have completely held my interest all the way from November 1985 to September 1986.
I'm not a subber so will see re Brass Sun on Weds. You're right Tordelback in that I should take on a little more responsibility re keeping track. What I would like is a paragraph summary of previous 'books' but accept even asking for that is fairly weak.
Thing is, a couple of people have now objected to the idea of extended story arcs, and that's not what I'm talking about at all -- when Strontium Dog was in the prog for 30 weeks if the year, there'd be longer stories like The Killing, but also a lot of three and four parters. THIS is what I'm taking about.
Dante, is a bit of a red herring in this regard, being a long running semi-regular strip but nonetheless being a finite, self-contained storyline. I (and I think DrX) am taking about series that run like Dredd, with a combination of short and long stories adding up to a 6+ month run.
Cheers
Jim
Quote from: flesario on 15 September, 2013, 10:51:57 PM
What I would like is a paragraph summary of previous 'books' but accept even asking for that is fairly weak.
Not at all, that's perfectly reasonable. My objection isn't to us all needing our ageing memories jogged, it's the idea that story-slots
shouldn't rotate between a number of 'chaptered' stories.
I'd be all for
one 6 month residency slot, providing the other 3 slots are used for the 'book' model or one-offs and the like. The problem there is that if you had more than a handful of candidates fro longer residency it'd be many years between repeat engagements.
Also: 6 months of Kingdom, yum! 6 months of Greysuit, kill me now.
Quote from: Colin_YNWA on 15 September, 2013, 08:41:00 PM
If they don't its just poor writing or a reader expecting to have ever detail of every little thing that's happened?
Bugger. This point I meant to include but got distracted. It's the writer's job to keep you interested. Simple as that.
Beyond that, Brass Sun started and ended inside the last year. For the full surround-sound experience, dig out the first part?
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 15 September, 2013, 10:56:40 PM
Thing is, a couple of people have now objected to the idea of extended story arcs, and that's not what I'm talking about at all -- when Strontium Dog was in the prog for 30 weeks if the year, there'd be longer stories like The Killing, but also a lot of three and four parters. THIS is what I'm taking about.
Dante, is a bit of a red herring in this regard, being a long running semi-regular strip but nonetheless being a finite, self-contained storyline. I (and I think DrX) am taking about series that run like Dredd, with a combination of short and long stories adding up to a 6+ month run.
Cheers
Jim
What he said. I'm talking the difference between nu-Who and a six part drama. Who is a
setting. There are many takes on it, with many writers - but controlled by one writer. That is what Dredd or Stront is. THe drama, however, is over when it is over.
My point is this:
Where are the 2000ad stories that you don't need to know what has gone before in order to understand them?
If nothing else does, Absalom, Grey Area, and Indigo Prime are absolutely brilliant concepts for changing up between longer stories of 10-12 weeks and shorter ones, like the old classics did. Indigo Prime especially. It's got a cast of dozens, any of whom could take the lead for one or two weeks, building up our understanding of the agency and situations while also telling a neat, weirdo sci-fi story and developing more characters. Do an 8-week story with art by Carter, a 2-part sidestory with art by A New Talent, a 10-parter by Bagwell, a one-off, then another longer story by Carter, etc.
And yes, I'd *happily* take six months of Greysuit if that meant we were getting Books 3, 4, and 5 back-to-back instead of over the course of four or more years!
Actually, one of the many big advantages to residency is this: if we assume that some of the writers behind these thrills have a long-term storyline in mind, with an *ending* to come, then giving the dang thing a residency every once in a while would clear the freaking deck for new thrills sooner. I don't like these cases like The Red Seas, where we'd get eleven weeks one year, five the next, ten the next, and cliffhanger endings that don't get resolved for SIXTY PROGS.
I have no idea how the creative types feel about it, since they're all freelancers and maybe a short-term residency at 2000 AD simply isn't what they want, but if I were writing a series for 2000 AD and was thinking about long-term goals and storytelling, then the one-commission-at-a-time model - while possibly ideal for Rebellion - would drive me nuts.
Obviously there are controversial, reader-dividing series that really would not go over well if commissioned in bulk (Greysuit, Samantha Slade), and obviously there are other series where the creatives simply don't want the commitment since they have lots of other work (probably Richard Elson on Kingdom). But something as incredibly popular and brilliant as Absalom, I still can't believe that the editor didn't call Rennie in for a meeting, determine exactly where he wanted to take this series long-term, and said "Gordon, I'd like thirty episodes now with an option for fifty more."
I know, I'm sorry, I'm usually super-positive about the comic, but apart from Trifecta, Dredd has been so incredibly disappointing post-DoC, and Age of the Wolf and The Ten-Seconders and Slaine (I cannot believe that Simon Davis is being pulled away from Ampney Crucis, which I love, for Slaine, which I don't!!) have just killed my enthusiasm. I'm seeing so many missed opportunities lately, and it's disappointing me so much.
(Another one, incidentally, is the lack of digital collected stories. Why the heck NOT bundle the previous outings for Damnation Station and Brass Sun for 2.99 each? )
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 15 September, 2013, 10:56:40 PM
Dante, is a bit of a red herring in this regard, being a long running semi-regular strip but nonetheless being a finite, self-contained storyline. I (and I think DrX) am taking about series that run like Dredd, with a combination of short and long stories adding up to a 6+ month run.
Dante fooled me in that regard, too. I remember once, years ago, thinking of Dante as a character-led series and having Simon Fraser, on the old newsgroup, correcting me. But while the creators and editors considered it a long-form serial, it still functioned like Sin Dex, Rogue Trooper, Slaine, etc did - lots of short one-offs (often with guest artists) fleshing out the epic by letting us know the characters. That great series of short stories that paired Nikolai with each of his siblings, for instance. There were three with Konstantin that were really memorable.
Heck, even though it was a big compromise that left the creators unsatisfied, breaking away from the four-book Tsar Wars for The Beguiling and Fiends was a terrific idea too.
Quote from: sauchie on 15 September, 2013, 06:13:00 PMWagner seems less interested in goofy sci-fi ideas than cop drama in general these days, but that's presumably offsetting the fact that the Dark Judges will be along in just a few months time to make everything very silly again.
I don't think it will be silly personally. The "grounded/fantastical" balance is an aspect to play with, but I don't think the out-there stuff is silly necessarily. This Death story looks pretty serious and terrific I'd say.
Quote from: The Enigmatic Dr X on 15 September, 2013, 04:48:27 PMWhat I'm getting at is, where are the universes? The concepts and characters that are sandboxes, allowing a variety of stories to be told without the thing ending?
Dredd, Stront, SinDex, Slaine.
What about the last 15 years? What new ones have started?
They don't need to have the same creative team; they should be able to function with different inputs. They should, actually, thrive without them
I agree that it would be cool to see more longform stories that can last 20 years or more. Though I do think one writer could stay on for a whole series like that if they wanted, after all we have say Savage Dragon going over 20 years with one writer/artist. It can be done.
I agree a team of writers working together on books Dredd-style could also work well though, depending on the story.
I guess the question is, what is it that makes a series have lasting appeal? Such that it can have no end in sight and attract readers? Whatever it is, it'd always be nice to have more of that.
Quote from: PsychoGoatee on 16 September, 2013, 01:56:59 AM
Quote from: sauchie on 15 September, 2013, 06:13:00 PMWagner seems less interested in goofy sci-fi ideas than cop drama in general these days, but that's presumably offsetting the fact that the Dark Judges will be along in just a few months time to make everything very silly again.
I don't think it will be silly personally. The "grounded/fantastical" balance is an aspect to play with, but I don't think the out-there stuff is silly necessarily. This Death story looks pretty serious and terrific I'd say.
Quote from: The Enigmatic Dr X on 15 September, 2013, 04:48:27 PMWhat I'm getting at is, where are the universes? The concepts and characters that are sandboxes, allowing a variety of stories to be told without the thing ending?
Dredd, Stront, SinDex, Slaine.
What about the last 15 years? What new ones have started?
They don't need to have the same creative team; they should be able to function with different inputs. They should, actually, thrive without them
I agree that it would be cool to see more longform series that can last 20 years or more. Though I do think one writer could stay on for a whole series like that if they wanted, after all we have say Savage Dragon going over 20 years with one writer/artist. It can be done.
I agree a team of writers working together on books Dredd-style could also work well though, depending on the story.
I guess the question is, what is it that makes a series have lasting appeal? Such that it can have no end in sight and attract readers? Whatever it is, it'd always be nice to have more of that.
I'm mostly enjoying the Prog. There have been some great Dredd stories, Bender was brilliant in my opinion.
But I do think Jim is right. It'd be good to have something more refular with stories like Dredd has, 1 parters, 3 parters, 12 parters, etc.
Quote from: flesario on 15 September, 2013, 10:51:57 PM
What I would like is a paragraph summary of previous 'books' but accept even asking for that is fairly weak.
Like the very succinct summary paragraph of Brass Sun (and likewise for all the other strips) that appears in the Nerve Centre?
Cheers
Jim
QuoteI don't think it will be silly personally. The "grounded/fantastical" balance is an aspect to play with, but I don't think the out-there stuff is silly necessarily. This Death story looks pretty serious and terrific I'd say.
I really, really hope the new Death isn't one of the silly ones. The Dark Judges at their grimmest, stalking the corpse-strewn wasteland of MC1, is a prospect that makes me very excited (and I have to admit I thought it was squandered a bit during the actual DoC storyline, being wrapped up very quickly by PJ's antics).
I remember the storyline drawn by Frazer Irving being utterly awesome, showing Wagner's considerable strength in being able to re-mystify Death in the very first episode. Sadly, he didn't quite seem to be able to resist returning to farce again in the Megazine follow-up (do recreational drugs
really work on animated corpses?).
But here's hoping - this new Death storyline could be just the shot in the arm the prog needs right now.
Quote from: JamesC on 15 September, 2013, 02:53:20 PM
I think Grey Area could be great and see no reason why different writers and artists couldn't take on stories in that universe. Is it creator owned by Dan Abnett?
Pretty sure that the (unwritten?) editorial policy for many years has been that a creator gets first refusal on writing/drawing any series they create until such time as they don't want to do it any more, at which point it can be handed off to another creator with the original's blessing (pretty sure that's how Arthur Wyatt ended up finishing off The 86ers). Given that these are work-for-hire strips, I think that's pretty fair treatment.
I think I disagree with Dr X on the details of this, actually — I'm much keener to see specific strips in semi-permanent residence, in the way that Rogue Trooper or Strontium Dog used to run. The good Doctor seems keener on a 'shared universe' slot where different creative teams tell stories linked by a common setting. The only time I can think of 2000AD doing something like that (Dreddworld notwithstanding) was Tales of Telguuth, which I didn't hate but wouldn't hold up as one of the comic's glittering highlights. I suppose Strontium Dogs/ Tales from the Doghouse might qualify as well but, again, not on my list of 2000AD classics.
Cheers
Jim
:-[
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 16 September, 2013, 09:55:27 AM
Pretty sure that the (unwritten?) editorial policy for many years has been that a creator gets first refusal on writing/drawing any series they create until such time as they don't want to do it any more, at which point it can be handed off to another creator with the original's blessing (pretty sure that's how Arthur Wyatt ended up finishing off The 86ers). Given that these are work-for-hire strips, I think that's pretty fair treatment.
I would be very sorry to see this situation change. IIRC the only recent time an alternative approach has worked was the excellent Satanus Unchained, and the fallout from that just wasn't worth it.
When you think the that the US market scripter turns in maybe 250 (less dense) pages a year on one title, the 60-70 pages we get per story per year-or-two does seem very out of step. At least one slot given over to 150 page runs might be worth a try - although I do struggle to see which strip this would be: Damnation Station would have got my vote, but apparently that isn't to be; Indigo Prime is the err, prime candidate, but I don't see John being that keen to do it; Sinister Dexter would certainly suit me, but much as I love it I wonder if it isn't a bit played out; the older strips are attached to creators who seem unlikely to be in a position to produce this much material.
No idea where that embarrassed smiley came from, but I can't edit. Let it be known that I have no shame.
I am loving the prog.
I only experienced the 'ol days via scans and patient searching of the Rochdale-Oldham (and then the Portsmouth) library system, which luckily had a surprising amount of Rogue, Dredd and SinDex.
I dipped into the prog and started off with just the Megazine, as it was more 'value for money' and didn't have that daft bloody Nikolai Dante in. Fast forward 2 years I am on tenterhooks waiting for the next Dante story and couldn't believe it was finishing - things change. Similarly with Defoe, I liked the idea but couldn't stand it till the latest arc. I suppose this in part was due to me being relieved that it's going to finish, so I could just enjoy rather than dredd (sorry) it.
10 Seconders is one of my favourite strips, I feel the basic idea could have been exploited a lot, lot more than it was. It possibly got bogged down in its major narrative too early as really, it's not had that much of the 'gods' in till things got a bit Ancient Astronauts. But the end, well. I'm glad there's some closure and it had a stronger story than just People vs Superpeople it seems - and "Sod this I'm going home" is a perfect way for these stories to close I think.
Conversely I think the Werewolf story has been really, really tough going since the first apocalyptic story. Never looked forward to it coming back. And in the Meg I hate American Reaper.
Anyway I'm rambling a bit, but I think that there could be some real room to expand the Ten Seconders. We saw so few of the 'gods' that it could be expanded. Maybe not all of them were so self-obsessed. Other guerrilla groups. People in the quisling forces...
Quote from: TordelBack on 16 September, 2013, 10:22:38 AM
:-[Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 16 September, 2013, 09:55:27 AM
Pretty sure that the (unwritten?) editorial policy for many years has been that a creator gets first refusal on writing/drawing any series they create until such time as they don't want to do it any more, at which point it can be handed off to another creator with the original's blessing (pretty sure that's how Arthur Wyatt ended up finishing off The 86ers). Given that these are work-for-hire strips, I think that's pretty fair treatment.
I would be very sorry to see this situation change. IIRC the only recent time an alternative approach has worked was the excellent Satanus Unchained, and the fallout from that just wasn't worth it.
When you think the that the US market scripter turns in maybe 250 (less dense) pages a year on one title, the 60-70 pages we get per story per year-or-two does seem very out of step. At least one slot given over to 150 page runs might be worth a try - although I do struggle to see which strip this would be: Damnation Station would have got my vote, but apparently that isn't to be; Indigo Prime is the err, prime candidate, but I don't see John being that keen to do it; Sinister Dexter would certainly suit me, but much as I love it I wonder if it isn't a bit played out; the older strips are attached to creators who seem unlikely to be in a position to produce this much material.
I think in the old days strips were born out of a need to fill a niche - didn't Rogue Trooper come about because Tharg was specifically after a new future war story?
Maybe there's a case for Tharg to commission story ideas for the specific purpose of being a sandbox for other creators to play in. So rather than pitch a story you pitch a character/series bible and Tharg farms the script/art duties off to numerous creators.
In the spirit of addressing concerns, I've written an over-long summary of the first book of Brass Sun here (http://forums.2000adonline.com/index.php/topic,39215.0/topicseen.html).
Anyone fancy doing likewise for Flesh or Damnation Station? I'm happy to do them myself, but I might not get them done by Wednesday.
Damnation Station - Alien invasion, spoilt rock-star, everyone dies. That do it? :P
The OP makes a very good point, and the abundance of often hard to follow, story-heavy serials is something I have highlighted as a negative on more than one occasion.
For my money, stories like Nikolai Dante and Sinister Dexter (especially during their early years) hit that 2000ad sweet spot 100%. They had a simplicity to them, a lot of repetition - constant reiteration and reminders of the characters, slogans, tropes and almost every episode that wasn't a one-off began with some succinct recapping - in the case of Dante the brilliant use of the framing the whole thing as an historical epic with passages of famous tomes about the events we are currently witnessing really helped to set the scene and ease the reader in.
In modern times, I would say Kingdom or Shakara are paragons of what works as a 2000ad strip. Instantly recognisable, boldly designed characters with memorable names. Simple, snappy, original concepts that 'feel' very 2000ad and are easy to sum up the appeal of in an elevator pitch ("It's about a genetically engineered 'dog soldier' created to protect his 'master' (mankind) and keep marauding alien invaders off 'his lawn' (a desolate, post-apocalyptic Earth). Try doing the same with, say, The Red Seas, or, I dunno, the most recent series of Savage or something. The characters from both Shakara and Kingdom have great catchphrases and tics that get repeated every other episode, that keeps them fresh in the mind, and the stories they feature in never get too convoluted or backstory-reliant, which makes them light and really easy to digest week to week. This, in my opinion, is something that some of the newer 2000ad writers are often weaker at, whereas old hands like Dan Abnett and Robbie Morrison are adept.
An example would be Zombo - he's undoubtedly a brilliant creation and certainly nails the 'character' part of the equation... but in all honesty I found the most recent series all but impenetrable in terms of plot. Maybe that's just me, but I would have appreciated something a bit more straightforward.
I feel like this is also an area where certain Dredd writers (outside of John Wagner) fall down. There's a tendency to mine classic era Dredd and spin off decades-old concepts or continuity into new stories - but the end result are stories that lack freshness and can appear too self-referential, and only really of interest to established fans. Dredd's bread and butter should be short, punchy, future crime stories. That should be the standard. A lot of recent Dredd has just felt a bit leaden and continuity-heavy to me. I think one of the finest examples of a modern Dredd story is Mandroid, and it's one I often recommend to friends online and in the real world. It's such a simple story, but executed perfectly. It has a pulpiness and energy that suits episodic reading just as well as devouring the whole thing in one. You hardly need any prior knowledge of the character to get into it.
Having said all that, there's an argument to be made that even Wagner's recent Dredd work might be a bit complicated and continuity-heavy for the prospective new reader, but I think he treads a fine line between complexity and accessibility.
I also think there are too many spin offs, especially where Dredd is concerned, where tangential and obscure side characters or concepts are spun off into standalone stories - and the hit rate for them is very much weighted towards the 'miss' side.
As to the OP - I must admit that I'm finding it harder to read the prog week in week out and often build up a big backlog that sit there waiting to be read - there are too many stories that just don't grab me these days. This may of course be one of my periodic wanings of interest and I could soon be right back on board of course, and a certain element of this is that getting an iPad and Comixology has opened me up to a whole world outside of the prog. I always seem to be buying far more comics than I can possibly read at any one time.
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 16 September, 2013, 09:55:27 AM
I think I disagree with Dr X on the details of this, actually — I'm much keener to see specific strips in semi-permanent residence, in the way that Rogue Trooper or Strontium Dog used to run. The good Doctor seems keener on a 'shared universe' slot where different creative teams tell stories linked by a common setting. The only time I can think of 2000AD doing something like that (Dreddworld notwithstanding) was Tales of Telguuth, which I didn't hate but wouldn't hold up as one of the comic's glittering highlights. I suppose Strontium Dogs/ Tales from the Doghouse might qualify as well but, again, not on my list of 2000AD classics.
Cheers
Jim
Nope. I'm just not making myself clear. I'm wholly with you, Jim.
As I said in my first post, it's hard to verbalize.
What I want is on-going tales, ideally by the creators BUT NOT DEFINITIVELY, using on-going characters (or some from a cast of many) in an on-going universe.
Like Dredd, really, or Stront - lots of great stories in the same universe, rather than one serial told over time and then ending. ie NOT like Nikolai Dante, which came to a definite end.
Oh, and I'm not criticising that either. What I am saying is that 2000ad as an athology should have both. 2 or 3 of the five strips in it should fall into each category each week.
What I don't like is that in recent months/ years, other than Dredd, we've had four support strips that are all serials. I think that is to the detriment of the comic.
I know this is not an easy editorial ask. But Tharg is supposed to be all powerful.
(I also want to win the Euromillions draw - any chance of the numbers, Tharg?)
This may also be an age thing. But then, I intend buying the comic for another 40 odd years so...
Quote from: radiator on 16 September, 2013, 01:21:43 PM
I also think there are too many spin offs, especially where Dredd is concerned, where tangential and obscure side characters or concepts are spun off into standalone stories - and the hit rate for them is very much weighted towards the 'miss' side.
In the Prog? Other than Anderson (which in both its incarnations is in a long death spiral for me), in the past several years we've had
Low Life, Simping Detective (once),
Marauder and
Death: the Wilderness Years. Oh, and
Tiger Sun, Dragon Moon, a Dreddworld strip in the most tangential fashion imaginable. That's it for a long while, isn't it? I'd say the hit rate there is pretty high.
The Megazine is a different matter.
an ongoing sandbox type series needs to be kept simple ... he's a (cop/soldier/occult investigator/drifter), with a (bionic arm/talking dog/special gun/magic bicycle) in a (future city/colony planet/ postapocalyptic wasteland) and he's (searching for his family/seeking revenge/trying to get home/just doing his job, ma'am) - Further worldbuilding detail and backstory can accrue gradually, but it needs a simple grabbing hook - seems a while since we've had a character like that
Quote from: Dandontdare on 16 September, 2013, 01:41:03 PM
an ongoing sandbox type series needs to be kept simple ... he's a (cop/soldier/occult investigator/drifter), with a (bionic arm/talking dog/special gun/magic bicycle) in a (future city/colony planet/ postapocalyptic wasteland) and he's (searching for his family/seeking revenge/trying to get home/just doing his job, ma'am) - Further worldbuilding detail and backstory can accrue gradually, but it needs a simple grabbing hook - seems a while since we've had a character like that
Something like Second City Blues could have fit the bill I reckon.
The ups and downs of a future sport team without much money. The thing I liked about it was it had a kind of Grange Hill/Biker Grove vibe to it. It could have had short runs focusing on different cast members each time, tied together with event stories about each big game.
Arguably, the strip we've had recently which fits this bill is Dandridge - I've long thought it would make a good semi-regular.
Quotean ongoing sandbox type series needs to be kept simple ... he's a (cop/soldier/occult investigator/drifter), with a (bionic arm/talking dog/special gun/magic bicycle) in a (future city/colony planet/ postapocalyptic wasteland) and he's (searching for his family/seeking revenge/trying to get home/just doing his job, ma'am) - Further worldbuilding detail and backstory can accrue gradually, but it needs a simple grabbing hook - seems a while since we've had a character like that
That basically sums up what I was trying to say far more succinctly!
When folk say 'sandbox' series, do they definitely mean series that a range of creators can write/draw (but most particularly write)?
I ask, because that really isn't any existing 2000AD series/world I can think of: Rogue Trooper fell to miserable unsatisfying pieces after GFD's run and even the strongest spinoff The '86ers didn't seem to find much favour here or with its creators; the Strontium Dog universe has only really been successful when Wagner and (sometimes not even) Grant were on board; most non-creator-written Robo-Hunter has been genuinely infuriating; almost all of Pat Mills' early series degenerated rapidly once he handed them over (Invasion, Flesh etc.), whereas the ones he held on to have been far stronger (ABC Warriors, Nemesis, Slaine), in my opinion.
I suppose Dan Abnett's VCs stories were well done, but not exactly stellar. Aquila would be stretching a point. Are there any others? In advocating a more US style of pass-the-parcel writing are we missing one of 2000AD's strong points?
Quote from: TordelBack on 16 September, 2013, 01:58:05 PM
When folk say 'sandbox' series, do they definitely mean series that a range of creators can write/draw (but most particularly write)?
I ask, because that really isn't any existing 2000AD series/world I can think of: Rogue Trooper fell to miserable unsatisfying pieces after GFD's run and even the strongest spinoff The '86ers didn't seem to find much favour here or with its creators; the Strontium Dog universe has only really been successful when Wagner and (sometimes not even) Grant were on board; most non-creator-written Robo-Hunter has been genuinely infuriating; almost all of Pat Mills' early series degenerated rapidly once he handed them over (Invasion, Flesh etc.), whereas the ones he held on to have been far stronger (ABC Warriors, Nemesis, Slaine), in my opinion.
I suppose Dan Abnett's VCs stories were well done, but not exactly stellar. Aquila would be stretching a point. Other than Dredd (where the policy comes in for a fair amount of criticism too, cf 'waiting for Wagner') are there any others? In advocating a more US style of pass-the-parcel writing are we missing one of 2000AD's strong points?
Bollocks.
Quote from: TordelBack on 16 September, 2013, 01:58:05 PM
When folk say 'sandbox' series, do they definitely mean series that a range of creators can write/draw (but most particularly write)?
Yeah, this is what I was trying to get at in my previous post. Those great, long runs for Strontium Dog, Rogue Trooper, Robo-Hunter, et al, were all the product of very specific writerly vision (and, with the notable exceptions of Rogue and Sin/Dex, a fixed artist, too).
The idea of a 'sandbox' series — assuming that we
are talking about multiple script/art teams working on disparate stories within the same universe — is one that can really only be created by editorial fiat. The only example I can think of is, as I said, Tales of Telguuth, which was an interesting experiment, but not one I would necessarily describe as successful.
Cheers
Jim
Barney confirms my suspicion that Telguuth was 25 episodes of Steve Moore. Although obviously the artists were legion.
Quote from: TordelBack on 16 September, 2013, 02:22:55 PM
Barney confirms my suspicion that Telguuth was 25 episodes of Steve Moore. Although obviously the artists were legion.
Blimey. My faulty memory, then — I hadn't realised Steve wrote 'em all.
In that case, there are no examples of editorial creating a shared environment from whole cloth for multiple creative teams. It would have to come from the editor — I can't see a freelancer going for the deal:
"Hey, Script Droid, how do you fancy going to all the trouble of coming up with a story background rich enough to support an ongoing series of linked stories but only actually writing (ie: getting paid for) 20% of those stories?"I may be mashing ToT up with David Bishop's plea to writers for a fantasy series (that gave us Witchworld), now that I think about it...
Cheers
Jim
Quote from: The Enigmatic Dr X on 16 September, 2013, 12:10:07 AM
My point is this:
Where are the 2000ad stories that you don't need to know what has gone before in order to understand them?
Which is a fair point, the latest jumping on prog was so wordy as there was so much backstory to fill.
What is behind a lot of structure now is the TPB, isn't that where the money is now?
What Jim said. It's difficult to see any script-droid of the requisite skill and experience being much tempted to create a work-for-hire sandbox universe for others to create stuff in. (If you thought your world was any good, you'd want to write the stories yourself.) Take a look at the history of Tekmo comics - "Create a world for other writers to write in? Why, certainly. Here's some lazy rubbish I scribbled down on the back of a fag packet. That'll be $100,000 please!" - to see how this generally works.
Grant's idea about having a poll to select a regular week-in week-out roster of character-based strips is also a bit of a serious non-starter, I'm afraid.
Quote from: GordonR on 16 September, 2013, 04:00:28 PM
Grant's idea about having a poll to select a regular week-in week-out roster of character-based strips is also a bit of a serious non-starter, I'm afraid.
Agree with this. As Henry Ford said (not the mutant talking carnivorous horse in Judge Child quest):
"If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses."
Quote from: GordonR on 16 September, 2013, 04:00:28 PMGrant's idea about having a poll to select a regular week-in week-out roster of character-based strips is also a bit of a serious non-starter, I'm afraid.
I'm not really interested at all in this "sandbox" concept. I was, ten or eleven years ago, until Simon Fraser set me straight, and as Bishop, Diggle, and Smith formalized the understanding that series should continue with one writer in charge. That's the way it should be. I wouldn't have wanted to read the continuing adventures of Emmanuelle Chekhov from Dante by A.N.Other Writer and A.N.Other Artist.
But Gordon, I would like to ask why the poll idea that I proposed is a "serious non-starter." To clarify, it depends entirely on a two-stage process. If a poll determines that the series that most readers would like to see in a recurring slot is ATHEIST GUNBOT 1-2-3, written by SCRIPT DROID X, then any supposed commission of 35, 40 episodes is still dependent on SCRIPT DROID X agreeing to actually write those episodes.
For all we know, SCRIPT DROID X has a "day job" for some other, lesser employer and cannot devote the time to writing ATHEIST GUNBOT 1-2-3. It's possible that SCRIPT DROID X can only find the time to write a single 8-part adventure each year.
So the editor moves to the # 2 vote-getter.
Why is the polling not worth asking? I'm genuinely curious! Perhaps, Gordon, you do not yourself desire to script 9-12 months of one of your series, and perhaps John Smith doesn't either, but perhaps SCRIPT DROID X does, and perhaps ATHEIST GUNBOT 1-2-3 came third in the poll, because lots of readers would like to see more of it. Sounds like everybody could win in a situation like that.
Quote from: Grant Goggans on 16 September, 2013, 05:24:11 PM
Why is the polling not worth asking?
Can't speak for Gordon, but I think it's a bad idea because giving the punters what they think they want is
never a good idea, beyond the vaguest of market research (such as the 'future war' result of a readers' poll giving rise to Rogue Trooper). It's kind of why we have editors.
Steve Jobs' remark about designing products holds true for almost all creative endeavours:
"It's really hard to design products by focus groups. A lot of times, people don't know what they want until you show it to them."Cheers
Jim
and you have marmite strips like Sexy Ostriches to mix things up too.
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 16 September, 2013, 05:32:45 PM
Quote from: Grant Goggans on 16 September, 2013, 05:24:11 PM
Why is the polling not worth asking?
Can't speak for Gordon, but I think it's a bad idea because giving the punters what they think they want is never a good idea, beyond the vaguest of market research (such as the 'future war' result of a readers' poll giving rise to Rogue Trooper). It's kind of why we have editors.
Steve Jobs' remark about designing products holds true for almost all creative endeavours: "It's really hard to design products by focus groups. A lot of times, people don't know what they want until you show it to them."
(http://www.cooper.com/journal/assets_c/2008/09/02---Homer_Blueprints-thumb-350x228.jpg) (http://onscreencars.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/01/TheHomer.jpg) (http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_rHOBCQz3geI/SahHGBMvhwI/AAAAAAAAAhM/w8yxN4Ff0ow/s320/Poochie.gif) (https://keithroysdon.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/poochie-slide.jpg)
I think the problem with that kind of poll is it's only worthwhile if the options are limited. It might work if they're only about 5 choices, but the prog could easily muster a coupla dozen strips for the vote. The problem I see is unless one strip takes more than 50% of the vote, the prog line-up will be catering to a minority of the readership. So say you've 20+ strips to vote for? If ATHEIST GUNBOT dominates the vote, taking over 50%, and Script-bot X doesn't agree to it, then your second choice is going to be something that shared <50% of the vote with 19+ other stories. Again catering to a minority.
If two strips almost get 50%, and the creators from both are unavailable, then the third choice is going to come from a teeny-weeny minority.
I would prefer Tharg to trust his own instincts than to act on a statistical irrelevancy.
Well, okay, Jim... I'm not going to assume that there's a consensus in even wanting a regular strip alongside Dredd, just a few of us loudmouths on the internet bellyaching, but I do believe that should such a longform series be greenlit - elevated from "already commissioned and appearing once in a while" to "going for nine months straight" - then it would be to the editor's advantage to greenlight a series that a number of readers have already said that they want more of.
It's also possible that a poll could show no consensus, as Mister Pops pointed out. I agree to that. (Dude, it's ATHEIST GUNBOT 1-2-3. Those numbers are absolutely critical! Get it right!) Or that we're wrong and most readers don't actually want a recurring player like Stronty, etc were.
Lastly, the editor has already commissioned every single series that could conceivably be included in such a poll, whether five or twenty. It's not like anything that could make a conceptual jump from 10 episodes a year to 50 is an unknown quantity.
And if anything is true about this endless debate - this is hardly a new one - it's that the years-long grumbling over the years-long gaps between Red Seas, Ten-Seconders, etc suggest that the editor has sometimes been wrong in his judgement about waiting so long between stories.
Maybe I missed the post where somebody shouted "Yes! That four-year break since the last Ten-Seconders story was EXACTLY what the strip needed! I sure am glad that I bought the collected edition that contained 2/3 of the serial!"
I guess that I'm just ready for something to change and looking for a novel or outside-the-box way to do it. Maybe I'm just suffering a thrill-sucker infestation, but I'd really like the comic to be shaken up in a new and surprising way.
A poll?
I started this thread and am not sure what I want. Just that the prog isn't giving it to me.
No. I am sure.
I want serials that are primarily about set cast and their adventures , but which are not marching to a fixed ending. Where they have adventures.
But where those adventures change them. Not a constant reboot like US comics. Rather, the evolving but not ending life of a character or characters.
Early robohunter, ace trucking, Dredd, Slaine or stront.
Quote from: Grant Goggans on 16 September, 2013, 06:03:19 PM
I'd really like the comic to be shaken up in a new and surprising way.
I'm not sure six or twelve month residencies for existing strips would qualify as either of those things,
Grant.
Dandridge fits the bill..
This is the best on-topic thread we've had on here for many a day. Even if some of these ideas are divisive, they are all interesting and worth discussing. Keep it up, all.
I think that, when it comes down to it, stories that are complicated and reliant on the reader keeping track of numerous plot threads and a large cast of charaters - such as the aforementioned Ten Seconders or Damnation Station - should be wrapped up s quickly as possible, keeping momentum.
Adventure type stories that have a simple premise can come and go despite long gaps because knowledge of previous adventures is unnecessary. Sam Slade, Kingdom, Shakara, Harry Kipling, Lobster Random, Harlem Heroes, Second City Blues, Rogue Trooper are all strips that could return next week with no further explanation than a few lines in a caption in panel one.
How an editor makes that happen - I don't know. Perhaps even the longer stories could have short, standalone adventures first to gauge reader reaction/editorial confidence in the strip? I'm thinking something like Terror Tubes or the single episode adventures that Ro-busters started out with.
Quote from: sauchie on 16 September, 2013, 06:26:52 PM
Quote from: Grant Goggans on 16 September, 2013, 06:03:19 PM
I'd really like the comic to be shaken up in a new and surprising way.
I'm not sure six or twelve month residencies for existing strips would qualify as either of those things, Grant.
Well, of course it would! The last
ten years, just about every single story that's started has done so for at most an eleven or twelve-week window. Subplots are floated, the "story" ends, usually not at the actual climax of the story, but when the eleventh week arrives and we're ready for the next launch prog. Come back in fifteen months to see what happens next.
That's been the standard for a solid decade now.
A twelve-month residency for something? A big change. (And, if it's Ampney Crucis or Indigo Prime or something I love, a terrific and welcome one!)
Quote from: JamesC on 16 September, 2013, 06:54:20 PM
I think that, when it comes down to it, stories that are complicated and reliant on the reader keeping track of numerous plot threads and a large cast of charaters - such as the aforementioned Ten Seconders or Damnation Station - should be wrapped up s quickly as possible, keeping momentum.
Adventure type stories that have a simple premise can come and go despite long gaps because knowledge of previous adventures is unnecessary. Sam Slade, Kingdom, Shakara, Harry Kipling, Lobster Random, Harlem Heroes, Second City Blues, Rogue Trooper are all strips that could return next week with no further explanation than a few lines in a caption in panel one.
I don't agree with some of your breakdown here: far from focusing on the straightforward future sport aspect, Second City Blues depended heavily on the evolving relationships of a largish cast, just like Damnation Station, except for the fact that the Blues actually survived to the end of the last series...
DS actually has an equally readily graspable core concept:
alien overlords use feckless humanity as bumbling enforcers, and it was divided into short largely internally-resolved chunks
within a longish run. I would personally have loved to seen DS become the kind of resident strip Grant is advocating, but as it is I think it's a fine example of a strip that can drop back in after a long absence.
I seem to remember Ewing explaining that Damnation Station was always planned as two "books" of fifteen episodes, which is certainly fine by me... except that "Book Two" should've started about ten or eleven weeks after the first ended.
I'd forgotten another one where the momentum was totally killed by the year's break: Necrophim. I really wish that had been given a straight 28-week slot. And not just because among the little notes that Tharg sent in between "stories" two and three was the tragic: "Put some clothes on the succubus."
Quote from: TordelBack on 16 September, 2013, 07:38:30 PM
Quote from: JamesC on 16 September, 2013, 06:54:20 PM
I think that, when it comes down to it, stories that are complicated and reliant on the reader keeping track of numerous plot threads and a large cast of charaters - such as the aforementioned Ten Seconders or Damnation Station - should be wrapped up s quickly as possible, keeping momentum.
Adventure type stories that have a simple premise can come and go despite long gaps because knowledge of previous adventures is unnecessary. Sam Slade, Kingdom, Shakara, Harry Kipling, Lobster Random, Harlem Heroes, Second City Blues, Rogue Trooper are all strips that could return next week with no further explanation than a few lines in a caption in panel one.
I don't agree with some of your breakdown here: far from focusing on the straightforward future sport aspect, Second City Blues depended heavily on the evolving relationships of a largish cast, just like Damnation Station, except for the fact that the Blues actually survived to the end of the last series...
DS actually has an equally readily graspable core concept: alien overlords use feckless humanity as bumbling enforcers, and it was divided into short largely internally-resolved chunks within a longish run. I would personally have loved to seen DS become the kind of resident strip Grant is advocating, but as it is I think it's a fine example of a strip that can drop back in after a long absence.
I get what you're saying, but I think that Second City Blues could come back without the relationship stuff really mattering initially, because its so apparent what the strip is. If the first episode of a new story concentrated almost entirely on a game it would be fine and the soap operay bits would come along in subsequent episodes.
In contrast I don't think that DSs premise is quite as apparent. I read this week's episode without really knowing what it was all about - I vaguely remembered it was about aliens. Fair enough I hadn't read the Input page but I don't think that should really be necessary to understand the strip.
Quote from: Grant Goggans on 16 September, 2013, 07:51:59 PM
I'd forgotten another one where the momentum was totally killed by the year's break: Necrophim. I really wish that had been given a straight 28-week slot.
You're not wrong there, although I'm not sure how a necessary change in the very distinctive art would have worked. As to the succubus' wardrobe, I couldn't possibly comment.
I don't think the poll idea would work, as it would only be a poll of forum users rather than all of the readers. Or, is the suggestion that the poll would appear in the comic, as opposed to just on the website?
As for very long runs of stories, maybe the editor doesn't go for them because he doesn't think the quality of the writing/art would be maintained in all instances over a long story arc of, say, 30 continuous episodes. Also there are deadlines to keep to. Maybe, with some artists, the longer the story the harder it is to keep to the deadline. As I understand it, with some stories as episode 1 appears in the comic, the artist can still be drawing episode 7 or 8, which makes for very tight deadlines. Perhaps, the longer the story the harder it is to keep to the deadline.
A couple of people have mentioned Dandridge which I think is a good example of why some stories should be kept short, no more than 25 or 30 pages, as the writing and artwork in those previous Dandridge short stories was, in my opinion, very good.
QuoteBut where those adventures change them. Not a constant reboot like US comics. Rather, the evolving but not ending life of a character or characters.
See now, this is why I used to love SinDex and don't any more. Things get fecked up royally but everything always gets back to normal.
This is also why I came to love Dante. It ended, fair enough, but when important things happened and huge changed were made. Dante evolved hugely as a character, so did the world around him.
And, of course, it's why I love Dredd. We're still experiencing the repercussions of things that happened 30 years ago. Dredd has gone from action hero through hardline fascist to wise eldster. PJ Maybe has gone from child psychopath to adult psychopath. Orlok is dead, and Mean Angel is a harmless old simpleton. The city's population was halved, then eighthed (or whatever). As you say, things don't end, but they evolve.
As for Rogue Trooper, I believe the character and setting tended to be better than a lot of the stories. There is scope for a great story there but, John Smith's magnificent Cinnabar aside, things plodded a bit after the death of the Traitor General, and even a little bit beforehand.
TBH, I never understood the cretinously labyrinthine efforts various editorial teams went through once it (very quickly) became obvious that killing the Traitor General was a mistake. This is a strip in which cheating death is a fundamental story element and yet, somehow, no one was able to contrive a means to bring the TG back again?
Cheers
Jim
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 16 September, 2013, 10:41:15 PM
TBH, I never understood the cretinously labyrinthine efforts various editorial teams went through once it (very quickly) became obvious that killing the Traitor General was a mistake. This is a strip in which cheating death is a fundamental story element and yet, somehow, no one was able to contrive a means to bring the TG back again?
Cheers
Jim
or indeed find he was just a puppet that his backers were happy to feed to Rogue (think Thatcher and the men in suits once she had served her purpose) Rogue could have continued his 'quest' and the anti-war themes of the strip.
back on topic...
The lastest prog is an example of too much continuity
I think that killing the Traitor General -- and keeping him dead -- was absolutely necessary, after a while. If he had been brought back somehow, or never killed, the story would never have gone anywhere, or evolved, it would just have carried on the same as always, just as Sinister Dexter always does, as Jayzis B Christ pointed out above. I would rather read a series where sometimes things get shaken up a bit and things don't always revert back to normal again at the end of a story. People won't always like the results, and Rogue Trooper was one example, but that is sometimes the price of innovation, and it's a price I would rather pay than the alternative, which is for a series to be stuck in the same rut for all time or until it is put out of its misery. The Traitor General was only a McGuffin anyway, he never actually appeared except in two or three stories, he was just an excuse for Rogue to go wandering around on his own. Rogue never really spent every story actually searching for him, most stories were about adventures he would have which we're entirely incidental to the object of his quest.
I think the real reason Rogue Trooper declined in popularity was because it began to have less and less to do with Nu-Earth, as he kept going off into space instead. The series was popular because of its setting, not its lead character.
I really used to enjoy the Rogue Trooper strip and I think it was good because it was a simple idea (future soldier) that allowed for a different story each week. So one week Rogue would encounter a base with a general who has gone mad and the next week a distress signal that leads to a trap. It stayed the same but allowed a different tale to be told each week. I don't think it was a mistake to eventually kill the Traitor General as that needed to be concluded at some point but it was a mistake not to replace him with another suitable nemesis.
Recent stories like Age of the Wolf have been OK but honestly - what happenned? A kidnap, a chase and then a vague ending - considering the page count it was a bit poor. Compare that to the recent 'Night Zero' reprint with the Meg. Now, many would say this was an average story for the time but it provided a dangerous city that has been shielded from the toxic outside, perpetual night, a hero with robotic arm that can fire from a finger, a heroine who keeps getting killed and a dead person as the mastermind behind it all - so many ideas in such a small space!
Quote from: Recrewt on 17 September, 2013, 02:45:12 PM
I really used to enjoy the Rogue Trooper strip
Not surprised - you could be his twin.
Quote from: Recrewt on 17 September, 2013, 02:45:12 PM
recent 'Night Zero' reprint with the Meg... so many ideas in such a small space!
I had low expectations on this, and thought it was grand. Best thing in the Meg. Looking forward to the sequel in tomorrow's Meg too.
Quote from: Fungus on 17 September, 2013, 04:47:59 PM
Quote from: Recrewt on 17 September, 2013, 02:45:12 PM
recent 'Night Zero' reprint with the Meg... so many ideas in such a small space!
I had low expectations on this, and thought it was grand. Best thing in the Meg. Looking forward to the sequel in tomorrow's Meg too.
See, this is the problem with a long residency for one story. These two fine gentlemen would have lapped up both series of Tanner's adventures running back-to-back in the prog, and I would have been self-harming and trying to work out how exactly someone manages to shite into a manila envelope.
The current system gives me a regular break from stories I'm not so keen on. The proposal for year or half year-long runs of strips does presume they'll be strips which
everyone just
loves - and there ain't many of those in the entire history of the comic.
QuoteI would have been self-harming and trying to work out how exactly someone manages to shite into a manila envelope.
Ask Tony Lee.
Quote from: sauchie on 17 September, 2013, 05:29:11 PM
The current system gives me a regular break from stories I'm not so keen on. The proposal for year or half year-long runs of strips does presume they'll be strips which everyone just loves - and there ain't many of those in the entire history of the comic.
This, this and thrice this.
I'm imagining 9 months of Cadet Anderson. A solid year of Grey Area (which is okay and an obvious candidate for this honour, but I keep being disappointed by hoping it will be more than it is: and a
whole year of it?). Cripes, even a 6 month run of Langley's compu-Slaine. I can feel my stomach ulcerating as the anti-thrillions radiate back through time from this terrible future.
Obviously the benefit (or harm) from having a good 'resident' strip depends on the strip itself, and your own reactions to it. I think I
could stomach one strip I really didn't like running for large chunks of the year, but I'm not sure it would improve my overall appreciation of the prog much.
Incidentally, I can't help wondering if some of the legitimate negative feelings expressed on this excellent thread stem from a comparison of the year so far with the annus mirabilis of 2012. Last year was full of so many unbelievably great strips, from DoC and Zaucer, to Trifecta and Dante, as well as very strong showings from Aquila, Ichabod, Absalom and others, that it's hard not to feel that 2013 hasn't yet delivered to the same extent.
This 12-month series idea is abhorrent to me, for the reasons Tordelback gave, and completely unnecessary to solve the problem Enigmatic X identified. All that is needed is for the writers to make sure that each story they write in a series is basically self-contained, without requiring more knowledge of whatever went before than can be summarised in a paragraph on the Nerve Centre Output page, and without ending on a cliff-hangar that we then have to wait 12 months for until it's resolved. Nikolai Dante generally managed to do that and still tell a longer story with a long-term beginning, middle and end.
Quote from: TordelBackCripes, even a 6 month run of Langley's compu-Slaine.
There's a lot of strips that didn't really thrill me but never felt the need to complain, at least not at the same level as some do on the prog review threads, as a few weeks go by and it's gone. Now it'd be another thing if I had to have bloody Slaine (or something equally as dull) for a year.
Quote from: sauchie on 17 September, 2013, 05:29:11 PM
These two fine gentlemen would have lapped up both series of Tanner's adventures running back-to-back in the prog, and I would have been self-harming and trying to work out how exactly someone manages to shite into a manila envelope.
Hah!
Quote from: Fungus on 18 September, 2013, 03:06:51 AM
Quote from: sauchie on 17 September, 2013, 05:29:11 PM
These two fine gentlemen would have lapped up both series of Tanner's adventures running back-to-back in the prog, and I would have been self-harming and trying to work out how exactly someone manages to shite into a manila envelope.
Hah!
Damn. Hit [Post] too early. It's silly o-clock.
I stand by 'Night Zero'. I buy the Megazine out of loyalty. It always seems third-rate to me. Night Zero was collected and I enjoyed it, in a low-brow black-and-white old-school kind of a way.
I'm on your side sauchie. Series are very hit and miss. I don't want to read 6 or 12 months of dross on the basis that a small section of the readership likes a particular strip.
No-no-no to readers voting on *anything*. Terrible idea.
That's the editor's job. Obviously? Or else what is he doing?
Some people didn't like Dante, some people liked sexy ostriches. Both these things seem incomprehensible to me. There are some weird people out there :lol:
The main change in the makeup of the prog is surely that now everything is neatly packaged in runs that lend themselves to porting over to trades where the real money is.
I found this weeks prog frustrating and nearly impenetrable. And I'm a long time reader god only knows what new readers must have thought seeing as this is a jumping on prog. I can't remember what happened in the last series of brass sun, flesh and damnation station it was too long ago. And John Wagner set up a new status quo in mega city to tell new types of stories in Dredd and with the exception of what he's written himself its just more of the same from other writers. They seem intent on setting up their own plot threads all the time rather than telling a strong complete story. Every story ends with a cliffhanger to be resolved at some point in the future. The best Dredd story since day of chaos has been Bender and I include trifecta in that. Clever though it was.
Seriously there's needs to be a series recap somewhere on this site. I know I've banged this drum before but reading this thread it seems I'm not the only one frustrated with the prog at the moment. I love that its an anthology. I don't mind the varied quality, that's part of the deal. We all like different things. But not being able to enjoy the good returning strips because it's been so long since the previous installment is just frustrating.
This should be the template for any series recap: http://2000adcovers.blogspot.co.uk/2013/03/henry-flint-eric-rabinowicz-is-back.html
Fair play Pete wells.
Buy the trades is not an argument. At times recently I've considered giving up my sub and just buying trades I want. But if we all have to do that the prog will die and there'll be no trades to buy. Vicious circle.
Series recaps. Pretty please.
Best
JB
I've been perusing this thread from my space-chair in the Negative Zone, while wearing my kirby-krackle-encrusted Gauntlets of Geekery, and I say: I was brought back to 2000AD briefly recently to read 'Book of Scars', which I liked very much indeed- even if I found it desperately odd that they chose to celebrate thirty years of arguably the comic's second most-popular character in such a truncated and cursory fashion (45 pages?) while Dredd got DoC and Trifecta, etc etc. I would buy every week were Slaine in it.
My reasons for not enjoying the prog so much that I quit after 36-odd years are my own, but- along with the fan-fixation on that awful movie- which is where I finally realised I had nothing in common with the intended weekly readership, the comic's continual sameness was a big part. Design, "feel", all of it has felt the same for a decade now. A new broom is very definitely needed, I think- I grew to hate the paperstock, the texture of the paper, the muted colours, the same cycle of series that I didn't like, endlessly- all seemingly pitched at a readership who was very much not me.
None of this mattered- the week I quit (the one after prog 2013) I'm sure someone jumped on board to even it out, but I was genuinely horrified to see the prog looking exactly the same all these months later when I came back briefly for 'Book of Scars'. I feel no inclination to pick up this week's- as I'm sure I'll be able to read 'Flesh' in trade at some point (and 'Age of the Wolf' too, which was the only other thing in the last six that looked appealing).
So- I completely understand that the idea of a continuing roster of -say- Dredd, Stront, Rogue, Kingdom for a year would not be to everyone's tastes. It certainly would not be to mine! But I would happily pay £2.50 a week for Slaine- especially if by Clint Langley. Horses for courses.
SBT
Quote from: jabish on 18 September, 2013, 09:18:04 AM
I can't remember what happened in the last series of brass sun,
There's a really quite succinct summary of the last series of Brass Sun on the inside front cover. Everything else you should be able to infer as you go along.
I'll confess to some frustration with this relatively modern complaint that you should be able to understand
every single aspect of an ongoing series by reading six pages of it. My first issue of 2000AD was Prog 104, in which Strontium Dog was the
only series starting. Everything else was in the middle of something, Robo Hunter and Dredd were quite a long way into quite involved storylines. There was a little bit of recap text at the start of each story, and we, as readers, were expected to pick the rest up as we went along.
The only real difference now is that those recap/exposition bits of the strip have been turned into text on the inside front cover to keep the strips tidier for the trades.
The only other way to combat this "I don't know what's going on" complaint is longer runs of strips with shorter breaks in between, which has elicited some fairly negative responses on here.
I'll confess that I'm stumped.
Cheers
Jim
Quote from: jabish on 18 September, 2013, 09:18:04 AM
I can't remember what happened in the last series of brass sun, flesh and damnation station it was too long ago ... other (Dredd) writers seem intent on setting up their own plot threads all the time rather than telling a strong complete story. Every story ends with a cliffhanger to be resolved at some point in the future.
The gap between series of
Brass Sun is similar to those between
Halo Jones and
Zenith, so I'm not buying that reasoning for one second.
I agree about the tendency of writers other than Wagner to use one-off stories to tease their upcoming plot threads, rather than tell a satisfying discrete story, though. This has been a problem since the days of Alan Grant's
On Meeting Your Enemy (622) and Garth Ennis's
Enter: Jonni Kiss (830) - way back in '89 and '93 respectively. I can understand the temptation, but it makes a nonsense of the weekly format.
Quote from: sauchie on 18 September, 2013, 09:50:04 AM
Quote from: jabish on 18 September, 2013, 09:18:04 AM
I can't remember what happened in the last series of brass sun, flesh and damnation station it was too long ago ... other (Dredd) writers seem intent on setting up their own plot threads all the time rather than telling a strong complete story. Every story ends with a cliffhanger to be resolved at some point in the future.
The gap between series of Brass Sun is similar to those between Halo Jones and Zenith, so I'm not buying that reasoning for one second.
I agree with sauchie, it wasn't
that much of a gap was it? I have a terrible memory I kid you not, but I still remember what happened in Brass Sun the last we saw it. Even Grey Area, which I hope will return some time soon.
Oh, and nice to see a familiar face back on the forum! :-)
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 18 September, 2013, 09:32:54 AM
There's a really quite succinct summary of the last series of Brass Sun on the inside front cover. Everything else you should be able to infer as you go along.
I'll confess to some frustration with this relatively modern complaint that you should be able to understand every single aspect of an ongoing series by reading six pages of it. My first issue of 2000AD was Prog 104, in which Strontium Dog was the only series starting. Everything else was in the middle of something, Robo Hunter and Dredd were quite a long way into quite involved storylines. There was a little bit of recap text at the start of each story, and we, as readers, were expected to pick the rest up as we went along.
You're my brother from another mother,
Jim. I was going to use my own example of diving into the middle of
Max Bubba/Rage and the final book of
Halo Jones. When that book of Nemesis came along, where they all meet up at the point in the future where humans have been reduced to oil in suits, I really didn't have a clue - I just went with it, and it piqued my curiosity about what had gone before and where it was going next.
What more does any reader need to know about
Brass Sun than
clockwork universe/find the keys?
Sauchie, I thought Jim was your brother! :D
I have never known what's going on in Nemesis or ABC Warriors and I reckon I must've read much more than the average newcomer to the prog by the time I came to it thanks to some 2000AD lover in the Rochdale library system and a bunch of old comics in my Dad's loft.
Quote from: SmallBlueThing on 18 September, 2013, 09:26:48 AM
I found it desperately odd that they chose to celebrate thirty years of arguably the comic's second most-popular character in such a truncated and cursory fashion (45 pages?)
First: good to see you back here, even if only fleetingly. I think I've disagreed with almost everything you've ever said on this forum, but it's undeniably the poorer for your absence.
Second: I think you might need to take a moment and ask yourself how much those 45 pages
cost. I'm sure Tharg was able to negotiate a page rate somewhere between the oil rations he normally offers his droids and the bulging sacks of cash that the likes of Fabry and Bisley command nowadays (and a quick glance at Mick's commission rates suggest he would likely have made more drawing a couple of inked full figure character sketches than drawing a page of strip for many publishers)* but I have no doubt that Book of Scars swallowed up a
lot of budget compared to some other strips in the comic.
Cheers
Jim
*Note that I'm not saying that any of these fine gentlemen don't deserve to receive great sweaty wedges of cash for their work, nor that other artists who are less well rewarded don't deserve to be paid better. These things are what they are, unfortunately.
QuoteI'll confess to some frustration with this relatively modern complaint that you should be able to understand every single aspect of an ongoing series by reading six pages of it. My first issue of 2000AD was Prog 104, in which Strontium Dog was the only series starting. Everything else was in the middle of something, Robo Hunter and Dredd were quite a long way into quite involved storylines. There was a little bit of recap text at the start of each story, and we, as readers, were expected to pick the rest up as we went along.
I think you're misinterpreting a little. The issue for me is
how the stories are conceived and written. 2000ad suits a certain style of storytelling - broad, action-packed sci fi with a twist. It's hard to articulate, but a lot of the more modern series feel a bit, I dunno, wishy washy to me. They lack that certain spark of what makes a good serialised story work.
QuoteI agree about the tendency of writers other than Wagner to use one-off stories to tease their upcoming plot threads, rather than tell a satisfying discrete story, though. This has been a problem since the days of Alan Grant's On Meeting Your Enemy (622) and Garth Ennis's Enter: Jonni Kiss (830) - way back in '89 and '93 respectively. I can understand the temptation, but it makes a nonsense of the weekly format.
Yeah, I agree - Wagner seems to have a knack for layering in these seeds for future stories very organically, and telling a good story while he does so. But when other writers do it, it can sometimes feel a bit mechanical, and at the expense of the story at hand.
Quote from: Theblazeuk on 18 September, 2013, 10:18:06 AM
I have never known what's going on in Nemesis or ABC Warriors and I reckon I must've read much more than the average newcomer to the prog by the time I came to it thanks to some 2000AD lover in the Rochdale library system and a bunch of old comics in my Dad's loft.
So is the Viking's mutation being a Viking? What was his name before he went rogue? If Torquemada's died before and it didn't make any difference, why does Nemesis keep bothering to try and kill him again? If he's a Celtic warrior, what's he doing in the medieval France? Is Tharg supposed to be annoying? Questions which are a rite of passage for any new reader.
Quote from: radiator on 18 September, 2013, 10:29:53 AM
The issue for me is how the stories are conceived and written. 2000ad suits a certain style of storytelling - broad, action-packed sci fi with a twist. It's hard to articulate, but a lot of the more modern series feel a bit, I dunno, wishy washy to me. They lack that certain spark of what makes a good serialised story work.
I'll be honest — I think there's something to this. I think a more 'mature' approach to storytelling sometimes works against a weekly serial format.
I was thinking about Damnation Station (keeping in mind that my love for Al Ewing's work borders on the unhealthy) and, whilst I remember quite enjoying it while it was running, I can remember almost nothing about the characters or even much about the milieu (undeniably clever though it is). Some key visuals stick in my mind, but that's about it.
Compared with the (broadly equivalent) VCs, which basically had Snow White and the Seven Dwarves levels of characterisation. The VCs were: Normo, Grumpy, Sneaky, Loony, Baldy and Chinese. That was it. You could infer all these complex character traits by
looking at them.
Can I claim that any part of the VCs was great literature? No, of course not, but, by God, I didn't have any trouble keeping the characters straight in my head. Motivation? Not getting killed by the Geeks.
All the stories took place in the space created by those simple characters and premise. There's definitely merit to it.
Cheers
Jim
Quote from: sauchie on 18 September, 2013, 10:34:27 AM
So is the Viking's mutation being a Viking? What was his name before he went rogue? If Torquemada's died before and it didn't make any difference, why does Nemesis keep bothering to try and kill him again? If he's a Celtic warrior, what's he doing in the medieval France? Is Tharg supposed to be annoying? Questions which are a rite of passage for any new reader.
Heh, funnily enough Strontium Dog never fussed me.
Of courseWulf is a viking.
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 18 September, 2013, 10:40:29 AM
Quote from: radiator on 18 September, 2013, 10:29:53 AM
The issue for me is how the stories are conceived and written. 2000ad suits a certain style of storytelling - broad, action-packed sci fi with a twist. It's hard to articulate, but a lot of the more modern series feel a bit, I dunno, wishy washy to me. They lack that certain spark of what makes a good serialised story work.
I'll be honest — I think there's something to this. I think a more 'mature' approach to storytelling sometimes works against a weekly serial format.
I was thinking about Damnation Station (keeping in mind that my love for Al Ewing's work borders on the unhealthy) and, whilst I remember quite enjoying it while it was running, I can remember almost nothing about the characters or even much about the milieu (undeniably clever though it is). Some key visuals stick in my mind, but that's about it.
Compared with the (broadly equivalent) VCs, which basically had Snow White and the Seven Dwarves levels of characterisation. The VCs were: Normo, Grumpy, Sneaky, Loony, Baldy and Chinese. That was it. You could infer all these complex character traits by looking at them.
Can I claim that any part of the VCs was great literature? No, of course not, but, by God, I didn't have any trouble keeping the characters straight in my head. Motivation? Not getting killed by the Geeks.
All the stories took place in the space created by those simple characters and premise. There's definitely merit to it.
Cheers
Jim
Spot on Jim, I'd second that, add to this mix the whole TPB and you get our current Situation,
oh and Hi SBT!! :wave:
So after 8 pages, what we all seem to agree on is that Ten Seconder-style four year gaps between series should be avoided and that writers should try to write series and individual episodes which advance the story but are satisfying and comprehensible when read in isolation. All that seems fairly uncontroversial and very possible.
Quote from: sauchie on 18 September, 2013, 11:49:49 AM
All that seems fairly uncontroversial and very possible.
Crazy talk!
Cheers
Jim
Quote from: sauchie on 18 September, 2013, 10:02:04 AM
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 18 September, 2013, 09:32:54 AM
There's a really quite succinct summary of the last series of Brass Sun on the inside front cover. Everything else you should be able to infer as you go along.
I'll confess to some frustration with this relatively modern complaint that you should be able to understand every single aspect of an ongoing series by reading six pages of it. My first issue of 2000AD was Prog 104, in which Strontium Dog was the only series starting. Everything else was in the middle of something, Robo Hunter and Dredd were quite a long way into quite involved storylines. There was a little bit of recap text at the start of each story, and we, as readers, were expected to pick the rest up as we went along.
- I just went with it, and it piqued my curiosity about what had gone before and where it was going next.
I think what Sauchie says here hits the nail on the head - and is expanded upon by what Radiator and Jim have said.
For me, the whole problem with Damnation Station is that is doesn't pique my curiosity. This weeks episode is just a lot of talking and some pretty but not particularly original looking visuals. I don't feel like, by following this strip, I'm going to see anything that I haven't seen before.
To put it more succinctly, it lacked Thrill Power.
This weeks episode of Brass Sun wasn't my cup of tea either. I find the strip dull but I can't deny it's originality. That's fine - I don't expect to enjoy every strip but I do expect them to be '2000AD'.
Quote from: sauchie on 18 September, 2013, 11:49:49 AM
So after 8 pages, what we all seem to agree on is that Ten Seconder-style four year gaps between series should be avoided and that writers should try to write series and individual episodes which advance the story but are satisfying and comprehensible when read in isolation. All that seems fairly uncontroversial and very possible.
...or in other (better) words, this^^^
I know that we have seen this in the past with the Prog but I think some of the reasons for the unhappiness is that things tend to get a bit 'samey'. Most people can handle big gaps between stories but this is happenning a lot more often. I agree it would be nice to have another long-running story or stories just to mix it up more.
Also we get stories like Age of Wolf and Cadet Anderson which chew through the page count but don't seem to have much substance to them - again, not a massive issue if they are suitably mixed with more complex tales. I was a little surprised with Prog 1849 to see that all the stories seemed to end in a similar fashion - vague and not really a conclusion. I like an open ending as much as the next person but when it happens on every story then it just rubs a bit.
I don't post often on here, but this has been quite the thread.
A) I agree with the original sentiments expressed by Big Jim (are you big?) and whoever it was that started the thread. There is just something chore-ish about reading the prog at the moment. The art's still, on the whole, far more interesting than that in the US comics I read frantically/guiltily - which is as it ever was, and ever shall be Amen. So I don't resent the Prog for being a bit dull.
B) I have a more-than sneaking suspicion that every time Tharg asks for pitches based on a simple idea (space war or what have you), or every time a writer pitches a new idea, both are really hoping/trying to come up with something that will be the next Stront/RoboHunter/Dante/SinDex. I'm sure it's true than modern comics writers are more interested in telling a complete story than they used to be back in the 70s (when they got paid by the page), what with trade collections and all - but who wouldn't want to be the creator of a new character that could potentially become a household name, or at the very least the chosen avatar of one of us forum-botherers?
The problem is it's cussedly difficult to do, as I'm sure 1975-1977 era Pat Mills could tell you. I remember being struck by the info from Thrill Power Overload and the odd annual about how much time and effort went into the creation of the comic as a whole, but then in particular both Rogue Trooper and Slaine, both created with the specific aim of getting them to be lasting, regular characters with a set-up that could run and run.
I haven't read Prog 1850 yet, but I'm very excited about the new series of Brass Sun. Edginton's best work since Leviathan, a serial that should/could have been a series. Brass Sun looks desperatley as if it's set up to be one long story, but I'd welcome the chance to spend more time in its clockwork worlds enjoying mini adventures.
Quote from: JamesC on 18 September, 2013, 12:33:46 PM
Quote from: sauchie on 18 September, 2013, 11:49:49 AM
So after 8 pages, what we all seem to agree on is that Ten Seconder-style four year gaps between series should be avoided and that writers should try to write series and individual episodes which advance the story but are satisfying and comprehensible when read in isolation. All that seems fairly uncontroversial and very possible.
...or in other (better) words, this^^^
And getting the balance right must be even more difficult as strips are then collected as trades.
The brief: we need you to write short, satisfying tales that progress the storyline, that new (or regular!) readers can comprehend, in a handful of pages which have to fit seamlessly when collected to form a well-paced larger volume.
That really is a tall order for writers that should not be underestimated.
Sometimes I think US writers have it easy in that regard.
Quote from: sauchie on 18 September, 2013, 11:49:49 AM
All that seems fairly uncontroversial and very possible.
Slightly less flippantly:
Given that Matt Smith is a smart chap, the longest-serving Tharg in 2000AD's history, and has presided over some of the titles most glittering periods in terms of quality (one of which being just
last year), doesn't it stand to reason that he
knows this?(I want to reiterate from my first post in this thread that I
am still enjoying the prog and I'm certainly not wringing my hands over the future of the comic, merely indulging in a little speculation and backseat Tharging.)
Editing a weekly title, you have to fly by the seat of your pants a bit. You may have a lovely chart on the wall scheduling all the strips for the next 52 weeks, but when Writer A phones you up to say "I've been offered a six-issue stint writing for DC/ Dynamite/ Whoever" your choice is to burn those bridges and hand his project off to someone else, or re-shuffle whatever strip he now can't commit to completing in accordance with your lovely chart.
At the same time, some projects look like absolute gold dust on paper but somehow lack that vital spark in execution. We've already established that the UK comic business is not in the habit of binning commissioned material, so all you can do is polish it as best you can and run it anyway.
So, editorially, you can have all sorts of plans, but how those plans turn out can often be a very long way from what you expected. Sometimes those unexpected outcomes can be serendipitous and delightful, and sometimes they can be a bit 'meh'.
Add to that the fact that one man's 'meh' is another man's 'best thrill in thirty years' and it's a wonder Tharg didn't piss off back to Betelgeuse
years ago.
Cheers!
Jim
I think this is a really interesting thread - at first glance it can seem negative but I think if Matt Smith were to read through it then he would probably find a lot of people saying they think that something is not quite right at the moment, they understand they will not love every strip and it is difficult to describe what is wrong.
But, they do love the Prog - they are not leaving and appreciate the great work that he does. I know we are only a small percentage of the readership but perhaps what we fell is echoed in the larger community? I would have thought that would have been some good/interesting feedback for Matt rather than us just talking about the size of Dredd's helmet all the time!
My subscription ran out with 1850, and I will not be renewing. I started buying 2000AD towards the end of the Day Of Chaos story, and then with Trifecta I was thoroughly spoiled for quality reading for the next few months. Since Trifecta ended though, I have found that the only strip I've enjoyed most weeks is Dredd, and even then it's not every week. It's just not pushing my buttons anymore. :(
This, combined with other reasons, for example I'm soon to be a mature student so need to save money, plus I'm getting more and more annoyed with Pat Mills inability to keep his political opinions out of EVERY SINGLE strip of his I've read, means that I'll be leaving the weekly readership for the foreseeable future.
I'll still pick up Dredd-universe trades and others that catch my eye, it's just a shame that the weekly prog no longer manages to hold my attention.
See ya'll chaps, it's been fun. :)
Jim's absolutely right about the cost of Bisley et al, but I'm still shocked that Book of Scars wasn't longer- using cheaper artists to tell a more celebratory tale. After all, how many of Tharg's strips play to such big European numbers and last thirty years? I was expecting at the very least an episode of S B Davis at the end. Maybe the tale isn't told yet, who knows.
As for Pat's political views- it's what separates him from every other writer the comic has, and is why I personally follow his work beyond any other writer in comics. With all due respect to all the rest of them, no one other than Pat's name sells me comics. I'd buy fucking Batman if Pat wrote it.
SBT
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 18 September, 2013, 10:40:29 AM
Quote from: radiator on 18 September, 2013, 10:29:53 AM
The issue for me is how the stories are conceived and written. 2000ad suits a certain style of storytelling - broad, action-packed sci fi with a twist. It's hard to articulate, but a lot of the more modern series feel a bit, I dunno, wishy washy to me. They lack that certain spark of what makes a good serialised story work.
I'll be honest — I think there's something to this. I think a more 'mature' approach to storytelling sometimes works against a weekly serial format.
I was thinking about Damnation Station (keeping in mind that my love for Al Ewing's work borders on the unhealthy) and, whilst I remember quite enjoying it while it was running, I can remember almost nothing about the characters or even much about the milieu (undeniably clever though it is). Some key visuals stick in my mind, but that's about it.
Compared with the (broadly equivalent) VCs, which basically had Snow White and the Seven Dwarves levels of characterisation. The VCs were: Normo, Grumpy, Sneaky, Loony, Baldy and Chinese. That was it. You could infer all these complex character traits by looking at them.
Can I claim that any part of the VCs was great literature? No, of course not, but, by God, I didn't have any trouble keeping the characters straight in my head. Motivation? Not getting killed by the Geeks.
All the stories took place in the space created by those simple characters and premise. There's definitely merit to it.
Cheers
Jim
Very much agree.
Kingdom -
that's a proper 2000ad story.
Button Man -
that's a proper 2000ad story.
Tonally, thematically, they're poles apart - but there's a certain simplicity and clarity to them, and they both have instantly memorable lead characters.
I found Damnation Station very hard to follow, not having read any of the previous series. Everything else flowed just fine.
I'm sorry to see there's so much typed resistance here to my suggestion of longer runs for thrills.
To be honest, if Tharg were to announce that the next Slaine, painted by Simon Davis, would be running for nine or ten months next year, I'd probably be disappointed because (a) I don't like Slaine and (b) that's an awful long time to go without Davis working on Ampney Crucis or the all-new, once-again-amazing Sin Dex, both of which I really enjoy.
But I'd take it! Anything to shake things up.
I'd love to see a really long Ampney Crucis case - "Entropy Tango" was second to Sin Dex as my favorite thing in 2013 but it wrapped up far too quickly and needed another three or four episodes - or a six-month residency for Dandridge tackling all sorts of weird cases, mixing one-offs and other short stories, each as long as they need to be.
I think that's what's missing - the sense that the writers don't really have a comfort zone to both stretch and compact things. I mean, there's just no place in the prog anymore for a one-off Strontium Dog like the classic "Mutie's Luck." I like the idea that, once upon a time, Wagner/Grant/Ezquerra would be trusted to just keep assembling story after story, and the editor would quickly find room for them, a ten-parter followed by a one-off, followed by a three-parter. And they just keep running until the editor says "Let's take a break and do something else."
Abnett does, in both Grey Area and Sin Dex, change the episode count and tell short stories, but it's still pushing against the confinement of a set 12-week commission. And I'm really feeling the walls of that structure and its artificial boundary on how the story is going to be told. I'm tired of the momentum being killed. Now, I'd argue that it actually works well in Kingdom because of that series' peculiar and beautiful structure. You can imagine each tale of Gene being told around a fireside. Each one stands apart in its own way.
But good grief, Sin Dex is suddenly, amazingly, brilliantly, vital and amazing again... and it's gone? For heaven knows how long? No, I'll gladly take 52 more weeks of that. I'd love for Abnett to be given a completely open-ended commission. Tell the story. Do it the way you want to, take as long as you want to, just keep writing, and we'll tell you when (or if) it needs a break.
* * *
Now that I've read prog 1850, I can see how each writer has approached the time off since the last one. I think that Ewing's done it really well, starting things from scratch and focusing on each of who we can assume are the major players, while the narration explains the situation. Edginton did it even better. I loved the lyrical story of the creation of that universe, and the moving from fable back to continuity.
Mills did it unbelievably poorly. Yeah, I kind of remember the half-dinosaur half-human gang hanging around the fringes of the last story (back in the middle of Chaos Day!) but I had completely forgotten that Vegas has switched sides (?) and is working with them now. That almost useless paragraph in the front just explains that's the status quo.
Remember that Past Imperfect two weeks ago, "Origins"? No disrespect to the creators of that story, but honestly, the space would have been better served with a two-page "Previously" for Flesh and another two-page "Previously" for Damnation Station.
Quote from: Grant Goggans on 18 September, 2013, 03:57:21 PM
I like the idea that, once upon a time, Wagner/Grant/Ezquerra would be trusted to just keep assembling story after story, and the editor would quickly find room for them, a ten-parter followed by a one-off, followed by a three-parter. And they just keep running until the editor says "Let's take a break and do something else."
Yes. This is exactly what I understood you wanted when you talked about long runs: not some interminable 18-part story, but multiple stories of different lengths for the same characters. These can still lead into jumping on progs, too, as long as you wrap the current storyline and start a new one.
In my head, you'd have maybe four strips that could work like this, two of them running alongside Dredd at any given time and the remaining two slots for Future Shock style shorts, 3rillers, or one-offs like Cradlegrave.
It seems to me that Indigo Prime would be a perfect candidate for a semi-residency, since you could focus on different teams within the organisation, and swap artists for stories of different tone. Sin/Dex could do it (and, obviously, has in the past).
Cheers
Jim
Quote from: Grant Goggans on 18 September, 2013, 03:57:21 PMMills did it unbelievably poorly.
Again. It's been a
long time since I entirely skipped over any 2000 AD story (probably Wireheads or the execrable Grudge Father), but I'm so close to that with Flesh now. This episode managed to be a terrible part one, clunky, and boring, and McKay's still clearly very infatuated by the boobs of his lead character. It's a strange mix of juvenile and really tired, when Flesh should arguably be 1) the standout in the Prog, and 2) exactly the kind of ongoing strip people have been talking about, when what we'll get in ten weeks is "END OF THIS BOOK! NEW BOOK SOONER OR LATER". Gnh.
In general, I have to say that I think Smith has been a truly spectacular Tharg. 2000 AD has been on something of a high for the majority of his run. But, yeah, I do also wonder if it'd be good to try and get some more ongoing stuff into the Prog, rather than turning everything into a trade-sized mini-epic. Hell, I'd love to see Strontium Dog's current run end somehow and to get back to smaller, simpler tales again.
Bring back Big Dave! :lol:
But in all seriousness, Grants and Jims idea fits how I feel an anthology can be best utilised outside of a fresh slate each week and is how I would like to see the prog venture in the future.
Wasn't there a thread around this time last year, in which someone asked if we were in a second golden age of 2000AD? As has been pointed out, 2012 was probably the one of the prog's strongest years. You had the finales of Shakara and Dante, along with Day of Chaos leading into Trifecta. The prog where it's revealed that Dredd, Frank and Point's stories are all connected, is probably one of the single finest progs issues of any comic ever, up there with Alan Moore's Swamp Thing: The Anantomy Lesson.
My opinion (the best opinion), is that the prog just has peaks and troughs. It's on a bit of a come down from last years peak, but it's not like it's wallowing in a trough either. Dante's over, Shakara's done and the yanks have kidnapped Al Ewing, all were extremely valuable assets to the prog, but not vital ones.
Shakara ended in the spring of 2011, actually.
So far this year, for the one thrill that was a million times better than I thought it would be - Sin Dex - there have been several that I was predisposed to like - Stickleback, Zombo, Savage Bk 8, Age of the Wolf - and really did not enjoy. It's not merely "these aren't as good as 2012 was," they aren't entertaining for me, period. So these have all been really big disappointments and misfires, and when Dredd - the elephant in the room - has also been treading water for months, it's making for a really weak comic.
Other than Sin Dex and Ampney, the only things that I've honestly enjoyed all year have been Dandridge, Gunheadz - which was incredibly entertaining and really turned my expectations on their ears - and Defoe. More experimentation like Gunheadz would be really welcome, too. That was wild.
But five of 16 multi-part stories... that's the lowest average that 2000 AD has had with me in years.
For me the problem is Dredd. I want to know what is going to happen next with Dredd, I want to l know where these plot threads are leading, I want to know what has happened with Giant, Vienna, Beeny, Rico etc. and I want Wagner to tell me. Otherwise Wagner will just write it out again :-(
Quote from: Grant Goggans on 18 September, 2013, 03:57:21 PM
But good grief, Sin Dex is suddenly, amazingly, brilliantly, vital and amazing again... and it's gone? For heaven knows how long? No, I'll gladly take 52 more weeks of that.
No argument with that here! I'll take as much SinDex as Abnett can write.
I think the 'resistance' GG:KTT is encountering here isn't so much to the general idea of longer runs, it's more to a fear of what the specific strips
might be: other than SinDex, maybe Absalom and the pipe dream of Indigo Prime, I can't easily imagine what strips we're actually talking about, whereas I can readily think of half a dozen strips I dislike that would drive me insane in that slot, or in that quantity.
Also, while others may not have enjoyed a significant percentage of recent strips and how they were presented, in the way of these things I actually
did: I've been
very pleased with the recent runs of Defoe, Crucis, Stickleback, Ten Seconders and Dandridge, and I'm conscious that under Grant's proposal I wouldn't have got to see half as many of those: Dandridge for instance would presumably still be in the queue somewhere waiting for a slot to come up after its well received FS debut several years back. In fact my main objection of late has been to certain strips-that-will-remain-nameless which seemed to sprawl over far too many pages without so much as a hint of novelty or character. So I'm obviously more reluctant to rock the boat in that direction.
However, it wouldn't be 2000AD if it wasn't shaking things up every now and then: I'd certainly be prepared to support this kind of residency format, and see how it goes - with one condition: the current strength of the 1-3 episodes slot is adversely affected. I enjoy these at least as much and often more than the 'headline' strips.
..."Isn't adversely affected". But you knew that.
Anyone know why this is one of the 'no edit' threads?
I don't know I'll leave SinDex alone if it keeps wandering across the multiverse.
Quote from: TordelBack on 18 September, 2013, 07:20:37 PM
I think the 'resistance' GG:KTT is encountering here isn't so much to the general idea of longer runs, it's more to a fear of what the specific strips might be
But that, surely, leads to editorial paralysis from trying to please all of the people, all of the time?
ISTR the initial reaction to Dante was pretty lukewarm and no one on the editorial staff had Dredd pegged as the standout strip in the early 2000AD line-up. In fact, the readers didn't warm to Dredd for about a year (if I'm recalling Pat Mills and/or TPO correctly). Would the readers
ever have taken to Dredd if the editors had been more receptive to reader feedback?
I'd argue that, sometimes, it's the very fact that a series is there week in and week out that wins the readers round.
Cheers
Jim
My problem with Sin Dex is that I never really hopped on board when it started and it never seems to have changed enough for me to bother now. At least with the older "long run" thrills there was enough variety between the stories (even Rogue would go to crazy new locations or have different kinds of missions) for a new one to grab my attention and get me to give it another shot.
I'd dread a prog filled with long-running soap operas, but one or two long run series with a simple core concept that allowed for a lot of variety in the individual stories would not be a bad thing for mine.
Quote from: 13school on 19 September, 2013, 11:45:29 AM
I'd dread a prog filled with long-running soap operas
What part of anything anyone has said has led you to believe that was being suggested?
Cheers
Jim
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 19 September, 2013, 12:59:12 PM
Quote from: 13school on 19 September, 2013, 11:45:29 AM
I'd dread a prog filled with long-running soap operas
What part of anything anyone has said has led you to believe that was being suggested?
Cheers
Jim
I dunno, they could get one of those musical birthday card gadgets so that whenever you turn the page on a cliffhanger it plays the Eastenders' drums. That would be cool.
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 19 September, 2013, 11:33:15 AM
ISTR the initial reaction to Dante was pretty lukewarm ...
I
hated it, the first story that is, but not half as much as I hated Sinister Dexter. How I hated the boring non-event that was Sin Dex. Both were factors in my abandoning the prog, and staying away. And of course after I returned they became two of my all-time favourite things. So there's a lot to be said for keeping things running until they have a chance to create an audience.
You are of course right about 'trying to please all of the people' leading to paralysis - I'm really just trying to articulate my own (and I suspect others') reluctance, but I've already said I'm ready to give this sort of thing a shot, even though I am personally totally fine with the way the Prog is going these days (as long as someone gives Alan Grant's pitches the once-over).
My personal prescription would be: 1 Dredd, 1 25-parter, 2x 6-12 parters, 1 x 1-3 parters.
Quote from: TordelBack on 19 September, 2013, 01:55:33 PM
My personal prescription would be: 1 Dredd, 1 25-parter, 2x 6-12 parters, 1 x 1-3 parters.
But do you
mean a 25-parter, or merely that a given strip is in the comic for 25 consecutive issues? I have no real interest in an ongoing slot being given to some interminable extended single story, but would definitely like to see something Strontium Dog or Rogue Trooper, where there would be an extended run of stories of differing length...
Cheers!
Jim
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 19 September, 2013, 11:33:15 AM
I'd argue that, sometimes, it's the very fact that a series is there week in and week out that wins the readers round.
I totally agree with this. I never liked Sinister Dexter much when it started - some individual stories were good, but I got fed up with 'the gunshark code' and straw-man baddies designed to make Sin / Dex look 'honourable' in contrast. That said, it was a fixture, and by the time it was heading towards Eurocrash (about a year into its residence, maybe?) I was enjoying it despite myself - I'd moan about the strip, but I was still finding myself involved with it.
When I saw it suggested earlier in the thread that Ampney Crucis be considered for year-round status, my gut reaction was 'if that ever happened, I'd probably drop the prog.' But thinking about it, I wouldn't - I didn't for Sin / Dex. Would a residency for Crucis make me like the strip? Right now, I doubt it enormously, but if you told me back in the day that I'd eventually have affection for Sinister Dexter I'd never have believed you either.
Yup, I don't know why folks are coming on here saying "if story xx had a twelve month run then I would drop the prog" when in the last twelve month period there have been plenty of stories they didn't like. I agree with TordelBack's suggestions - just mix it up a bit more. It feels like things are all restricted to the same format at the moment.
On another note: Earlier up-thread someone mentioned a poll and I was looking through some old Progs last night around the #700 mark and I noticed there was a little coupon in the letters page at the back where you could say your top 3 thrills, things you dislike and age. I had forgotten they did this but if they were to do that again how many would have the recent cadet anderson as #1 thrill? ::)
Quote from: Grant Goggans on 18 September, 2013, 03:57:21 PM
I'm sorry to see there's so much typed resistance here to my suggestion of longer runs for thrills.
To be honest, if Tharg were to announce that the next Slaine, painted by Simon Davis, would be running for nine or ten months next year, I'd probably be disappointed because (a) I don't like Slaine
......
I'd love to see a really long Ampney Crucis case
Can't have it both ways. Happy for long runs of the strips you like, unhappy at longer runs when you don't? Slaine seems to be best-loved strips so dismissing that is probably a minority view.
The mix isn't broken as I see it. It's about quality. Many loved Gunheadz (I did up to a point), people still bring it up and that retro cover. 3 short weeks only. Not read my prog 1850 yet but even if it's only so-so I'm glad of the shake-up.
Running the show is Tharg's job. Not the place for democracy, it's a benign dictatorship that works I'd say. And in that jumpsuit Tharg seems to have the dictatorship thing sussed...
I am enjoying the Prog; when I can get it.
Every week my local Thrill merchant requests the Prog from their suppliers, sometime it comes, sometimes not. (I can't afford the yearly sub at the mo, and I like to support my local shop).
The Meg arrives every month without fail (again the same Thrill merchant), which I also enjoy immensely.
Cheers
I thought Cadet Anderson was OK filler material. Could've been a good opportunity to make a new psi-judge character of course. Perhaps with Judge Anderson in a mentoring role...
QuoteI thought Cadet Anderson was OK filler material
I always find the use of the words 'filler material' to be grossly insulting to the creators involved in the strips. There's no filler in 2000AD, just some strips you don't like.
And calling a strip by Grant and Ezquerra filler..??
Wow this thread... honest Progs always got hit and miss stories, not same till Dante. :(
Give it time and it will be hottest progs to handle!
Quote from: Richmond Clements on 19 September, 2013, 02:59:09 PM
QuoteI thought Cadet Anderson was OK filler material
I always find the use of the words 'filler material' to be grossly insulting to the creators involved in the strips.
Fair play. Filler material is fine in my book though, need a plateau of quality between the peaks. Hopefully you avoid the troughs as you go.
Quote from: Richmond Clements on 19 September, 2013, 02:59:09 PM
QuoteI thought Cadet Anderson was OK filler material
I always find the use of the words 'filler material' to be grossly insulting to the creators involved in the strips. There's no filler in 2000AD, just some strips you don't like.
And calling a strip by Grant and Ezquerra filler..??
Filler needn't be a negative term though, that last Cadet Anderson (which was a fine tale though hard to deny it was stuck in autopilot) felt like a story written by request to fill a gap as opposed to something originating from the [uber talented] Mr. Grant waking up in the morning and thinking to himself "I have an idea! Must get this to Tharg!". Like a lot of Marvel & DC superhero comics.
Quote from: sheldipez on 19 September, 2013, 04:23:24 PM
Quote from: Richmond Clements on 19 September, 2013, 02:59:09 PM
QuoteI thought Cadet Anderson was OK filler material
I always find the use of the words 'filler material' to be grossly insulting to the creators involved in the strips. There's no filler in 2000AD, just some strips you don't like.
And calling a strip by Grant and Ezquerra filler..??
Filler needn't be a negative term though, that last Cadet Anderson (which was a fine tale though hard to deny it was stuck in autopilot) felt like a story written by request to fill a gap as opposed to something originating from the [uber talented] Mr. Grant waking up in the morning and thinking to himself "I have an idea! Must get this to Tharg!". Like a lot of Marvel & DC superhero comics.
it wasn't anyone's finest hour and IMHO it was at best treading water
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 19 September, 2013, 02:00:59 PM
Quote from: TordelBack on 19 September, 2013, 01:55:33 PM
My personal prescription would be: 1 Dredd, 1 25-parter, 2x 6-12 parters, 1 x 1-3 parters.
But do you mean a 25-parter, or merely that a given strip is in the comic for 25 consecutive issues? I have no real interest in an ongoing slot being given to some interminable extended single story, but would definitely like to see something Strontium Dog or Rogue Trooper, where there would be an extended run of stories of differing length...
I'm just a bit nervous about the idea of a residency for any strip. I've got no problem with the idea that more popular strips (even ones I personally don't enjoy) should be given a push and appear in the comic for 20, 30 or 40 weeks of the year - I'd just appreciate a breather now and again, when the solid block of the resident strip is broken up for fresh stories to get a bit of space.
Even a strip like
Dredd - which has a strong central premise, a large reservoir of reader affection, and which enjoys the attentions of the best writers and artist - sometimes feels like it could do with a rest now and again. If Dredd only does it for me 80% of the time, think how quickly I'd tire of 6 months of
Aquilla or
Ichabod Azrael.
I had similar thoughts to
Jim and
Grant during the early half of the nineties, when a new strip seemed to start every other week, appear sporadically over the course of half a decade, and then finish after only two or three series. I concluded that the comic needed a few strong strips like Rogue and Stront (in the eighties), which were never out of the prog for very long. Sin Dex and Dante came along and proved that was right, so I can see that the thinking behind
Project Goggampbell has merit.
I wish we could have a few lighter Dredd stories now. Since Day of Chaos everything has been very down. When you think back to some of the strips after the Apocalypse War it makes you realise you don't need to have a bunch of stories that are all of the same kind of emotion. Stories like Fungus and Meka City show that the Mega City spirit can't be beat by no dirty Sovs.
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 19 September, 2013, 02:00:59 PM
But do you mean a 25-parter, or merely that a given strip is in the comic for 25 consecutive issues? I have no real interest in an ongoing slot being given to some interminable extended single story, but would definitely like to see something Strontium Dog or Rogue Trooper, where there would be an extended run of stories of differing length...
The later, definitely, and I only picked '25' at random - as noted elsewhere I think Devlin last managed that run with three or four stories in a row (the 'Sirius Rising/Reign of Frogs' thing). I love to see series with different length stories, even if they all part of one larger setup - like Day of Chaos, Grey Area, Damnation Station, or Sinister Dexter.
I also agree with Richmond, 'filler' is totally the wrong tone to use (although most of us have used it at one time or another), it implies something half-arsed pulled out of Tharg's sock drawer, and while any creator can produce something that falls flat, I very much doubt that was their intention. It particularly gets my goat because the 'filler' referred is often a Tharg-Bob's Future Terror Imperfect, and those are Tordel's favouritist things to see.
Quote from: sauchie on 19 September, 2013, 06:15:49 PM...the thinking behind Project Goggampbell has merit.
The Camp Hipster Initiative?
The Prog and The Meg are integral parts of my life and though the occasion strip fails to connect with me the way some others do, existence would be a hell of a lot duller without either magazine.
Also The Prog by committee/readers poll debate?
General rule of thumb, if you give the people what they want, it turns out shit!
I think it's all about momentum. Some stories like Strontium Dog, Sin/Dex, Dante, and in the early years Robo Hunter can really build up a head of steam from being in the prog for an extended period.
Some of the stories people are less keen on seem to be ones that are just getting into gear and then stop for 18 months.
The 3riller format is something that's really worked well IMHO. The three episodes allow a Future Shock type story a little room to breathe without giving writers the opportunity to waffle (for want of a better word). I can't think of any 3riller that would have benefitted from being stretched out over 6 episodes, which is presumably what would have happened with these pitches before the introduction of the 3riller format (if they ever saw the light of day at all)?
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 19 September, 2013, 02:00:59 PM
Quote from: TordelBack on 19 September, 2013, 01:55:33 PM
My personal prescription would be: 1 Dredd, 1 25-parter, 2x 6-12 parters, 1 x 1-3 parters.
But do you mean a 25-parter, or merely that a given strip is in the comic for 25 consecutive issues? I have no real interest in an ongoing slot being given to some interminable extended single story, but would definitely like to see something Strontium Dog or Rogue Trooper, where there would be an extended run of stories of differing length...
Cheers!
Jim
When I started this thread (which if nothing else has touched a nerve), that is what I was trying to say: why not have SinDex or Dandruge for 25 weeks or another long time? With a six parter, then a two, then a four, then an eight, then a five? And if it is because the creators cannot do it then give them the canon tales.
This is a very interesting thread which I've only just had time to read through and add my thoughts to. Since I came back to the prog five years ago it has been excellent and there have only been two strips I haven't really enjoyed. I won't name them as they are irrelevant to this conversation and my only real complaint ( and even that is a minor one) has been that there aren't enough new series in the prog. I like there being more volumes of stories that have previously appeared in the prog but would like there to be more original characters and strips. I might well be proved wrong if someone does the maths on this but it seems to me that too many of the strips are continuations of previous stories.
Quote from: JamesC on 19 September, 2013, 08:16:29 PM
The 3riller format is something that's really worked well IMHO. The three episodes allow a Future Shock type story a little room to breathe without giving writers the opportunity to waffle (for want of a better word). I can't think of any 3riller that would have benefitted from being stretched out over 6 episodes, which is presumably what would have happened with these pitches before the introduction of the 3riller format (if they ever saw the light of day at all)?
The 3rillers have all been great so far; they have room to breathe, have a proper beginning, middle & end and don't have a chance to outstay their welcome. I think everyone I've read I've came away wanting more. So yeah; more please!
Well, on the plus side, The Red Seas, Age of the Wolf and - after an epilogue episode in December - The Ten-Seconders have all concluded this year, and I'm pretty sure that this is the final Damnation Station. I'd actually like Tharg to commission not quite so many brand new ongoing series to replace these four, but mix in some one-off serials and 3rillers, and pick up the pace and get some of these once-every-18-monthers back in the prog more frequently.
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 19 September, 2013, 12:59:12 PM
Quote from: 13school on 19 September, 2013, 11:45:29 AM
I'd dread a prog filled with long-running soap operas
What part of anything anyone has said has led you to believe that was being suggested?
Cheers
Jim
I may have chosen the term "soap opera" unwisely (in fact, I'm sure I did) - but my personal preference thrill-wise tends towards bursts of Pat Mills-type insanity (or more recently, thrills like Zombo and Shakara). I read 2000ad in large part for the ideas on offer - not that the stories or characters aren't important, but crazy concepts and plenty of them will always be my first love.
So a prog that's heavy with character-based drama and plot twists, while often a good read, isn't always my ideal prog.
Hi.
Long time reader, part time poster!
I read the review thread on this notice board to make up for the irregularity of the letters page, this weeks prog excepted!
I think Grant Goggins and the Enigmatic Doctor X encapsulate a lot of the frustrations I feel with 2000AD nowadays. I wouldn't advocate 26 week thrills but I would like to see another strip running for 26-30 weeks a year with episodes of varying length.
Off the top of my head I think Aquila, Absalom, Grey Area, Sinister Dexter and Dandridge all have enough going on their respective worlds to be able to achieve this. This was the format used for Cabbalistics Inc and it was enough to make it one of my favourite strips of the last 10 years, despite the incomplete ending.
Regards, Jeff
Quote from: sheldipez on 19 September, 2013, 09:25:01 PM
Quote from: JamesC on 19 September, 2013, 08:16:29 PM
The 3riller format is something that's really worked well IMHO. The three episodes allow a Future Shock type story a little room to breathe without giving writers the opportunity to waffle (for want of a better word). I can't think of any 3riller that would have benefitted from being stretched out over 6 episodes, which is presumably what would have happened with these pitches before the introduction of the 3riller format (if they ever saw the light of day at all)?
The 3rillers have all been great so far; they have room to breathe, have a proper beginning, middle & end and don't have a chance to outstay their welcome. I think everyone I've read I've came away wanting more. So yeah; more please!
Yeah same here too, more please Tharg!
Quote from: Mabs on 20 September, 2013, 04:28:13 PM
Quote from: sheldipez on 19 September, 2013, 09:25:01 PM
Quote from: JamesC on 19 September, 2013, 08:16:29 PM
The 3riller format is something that's really worked well IMHO. The three episodes allow a Future Shock type story a little room to breathe without giving writers the opportunity to waffle (for want of a better word). I can't think of any 3riller that would have benefitted from being stretched out over 6 episodes, which is presumably what would have happened with these pitches before the introduction of the 3riller format (if they ever saw the light of day at all)?
The 3rillers have all been great so far; they have room to breathe, have a proper beginning, middle & end and don't have a chance to outstay their welcome. I think everyone I've read I've came away wanting more. So yeah; more please!
Yeah same here too, more please Tharg!
Given that Futureshocks are now down to a almost unworkable 4 pages, the 3rillers seem to be the way to go for new writers BUT aren't they Tharg invite-only?
Quote from: Proudhuff on 21 September, 2013, 11:42:00 AM
Given that Futureshocks are now down to a almost unworkable 4 pages,
What's unworkable about that? In the past, Future Shocks have been three, one-and-a-half and even one page.
Cheers
Jim
one page intro, two to tell, one to twist, yes it can be done, but how well? given that nearly every twist and turn has been used. I think even our best writers would struggle to create something genuinely new and fresh within the striaght jacket of four pages, perhaps that shoould be the challenge to comics big names, instead of ongoing ever expanding strips?
Quote from: Proudhuff on 21 September, 2013, 01:00:41 PM
I think even our best writers would struggle to create something genuinely new and fresh within the striaght jacket of four pages
I'm sorry, but I think that's utter nonsense. The absolute
first thing anyone wanting to write for 2000AD should learn is how to tell a concise, punchy story before they're let anywhere near a longer run. If they can't tell a decent story in three, four or five pages, then there's no reason to suppose they'll do any better with fifteen, twenty or forty pages.
Cheers
Jim
You can easily fit a Future Shock into four pages. Cutting out a page of what's often relative waffle would probably benefit the format.
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 21 September, 2013, 01:06:05 PM
Quote from: Proudhuff on 21 September, 2013, 01:00:41 PM
I think even our best writers would struggle to create something genuinely new and fresh within the striaght jacket of four pages
The absolute first thing anyone wanting to write for 2000AD should learn is how to tell a concise, punchy story before they're let anywhere near a longer run. If they can't tell a decent story in three, four or five pages, then there's no reason to suppose they'll do any better with fifteen, twenty or forty pages.
Cheers
Jim
Agree that is the case for new writers starting out.
But I can think of a couple of chaps who appear in the Prog who, to be truthful, would struggle to pass the four page story test now. Bitter moi? probably :D
Some of Alan Moore's best work for the prog were Future Shocks, surely the greatest being Chrono Cops (okay that was a Time Twister but it's the same thing!), and many of those were under four pages! One of the best things he has ever done was the six page Greyshirt story How Things Work Out in Tomorrow Stories issue 2. Almost Watchmen like in it's complexity.
I would hazard to suggest that a writer who struggles to tell a story in four pages would struggle with twenty, you've just got to get rid of all the extraneous detail!
again agreed GG, that AM story just keeps giving with each re-read. Dare I say that most 'easy reach' twists have been used up and its tougher now to find a new slant?
Also while I'm making enemies here, its often inexperienced artists who are put on these ( so the can gain experience and try out I Know) however due to their nature these tales really need the best storytelling and art skills.
I think all new artists should have to draw an Alan Moore future shock as their test :D
The future shock in the Night Zero floppy is a perfect example of how to make a great story in three pages.
Tellingly, I thought I was enjoying the Prog but have just done a load of Digital Downloads as a catchup and realised I have 4 months worth of Prog to catch up on.
TPO here I come.
You be careful now Tips
(http://lazylaces.com/pics/01/center_fatherted.jpg)
If Tharg wasn't an omnipotent alien, I'd say that - judging by this week's Damage Report - a nerve has been touched.
Although, it's not the length of time between stories that bothers me, it's their "tale told, go home" nature.
BTW: A record for my postie on this week's prog. 7.15am!
I'd nab the thread but, really, it's no challenge.
Quote from: The Enigmatic Dr X on 28 September, 2013, 09:49:00 AM
BTW: A record for my postie on this week's prog. 7.15am!
There's the answer to your original problem: you're reading the prog before the pub is open.
Quote from: The Enigmatic Dr X on 28 September, 2013, 09:48:16 AM
If Tharg wasn't an omnipotent alien, I'd say that - judging by this week's Damage Report - a nerve has been touched.
Although, it's not the length of time between stories that bothers me, it's their "tale told, go home" nature.
Not a good response to genuine feedback.
Quote from: James Stacey on 30 September, 2013, 09:22:34 AM
Not a good response to genuine feedback.
What are ya, some kinda stinkin' Dem?
This week I have mostly been reading 1675-1721 (and counting), and I have been
loving it - Second Golden Age is not mere hyperbole.
The relevance for this discussion is this: every time we reach a changeover/jumping on Prog I get quite annoyed. I've been really enjoying the line-up and then
-thwipp- it's suddenly
Necrophim and
Shakara instead of
Age of the Wolf and
Sinister Dexter, and Tharg only knows how long it will be until I see the next part, even at the rate of half-a-dozen progs a day.
However.
It doesn't take more than a few progs for me to become invested in the new line-up. Sure, I miss
Low Life: Takeover, but thank grud
SlaineThe Mercenary is gone and look: here's
Kingdom! The large stable of strong stories and frequent turnover really works from this viewpoint, there's always something fresh and I'm always left wanting more.
I'm not saying Grant's 'long residency' model isn't a good idea that should be re-introduced, but on reflection the present system really keeps things moving on an interthrillular level, and that's not to be sneezed at. Obviously block-number re-reads are not really The Prog As She Is Meant To Be Read, but it's a very interesting alternative to the wait-for-the-trade model.
Incidentally, Dredd in this period (2010-2011) is extraordinarily good. The shorts that follow
Tour of Duty are all excellent, with highlights like 'Doctor What' and especially Al Ewing and john Higgins' 'Served Cold' which is a bit of a forgotten (by me) modern classic.
Also, the first book of
Age of the Wolf is stonking stuff read in one go, and in the light of having just read the last book the overall story really holds together. Even though the three parts appeared in fairly rapid succession I can't help but feel that this series could have maintained momentum and interest more run as one unbroken story of three 'Acts', rather than three 'Books'. It's a very cleverly structured tale, something I think was lost in how it was presented.
Quote from: The Enigmatic Dr X on 28 September, 2013, 09:48:16 AM
If Tharg wasn't an omnipotent alien, I'd say that - judging by this week's Damage Report - a nerve has been touched.
Although, it's not the length of time between stories that bothers me, it's their "tale told, go home" nature.
Surprised to see Damage Report getting grumpy like that too, still but must be difficult sitting taking it day in /out from boarders
Quote from: Proudhuff on 30 September, 2013, 11:07:36 AM...must be difficult sitting taking it day in /out from boarders
The only noise that counts is the one the cash register makes.
The interweb must be an almighty curse for creatives and editors alike, perpetually overhearing people you've never met bitching about you while they stand in your kitchen drinking your beer, but I for one would probably never have come back to the fold but for alt.comics.2000AD and successors. Who loves ya Thargy baby!
It's one thread of very light grumbling compared to almost universal acclaim though isn't it. Other than the occasional 'this thrill isn't for me' or 'please dear god no more sexy ostriches' Tharg gets off very lightly compared to the rabid frothing of some fandoms.
Quote from: James Stacey on 30 September, 2013, 12:02:35 PM
Tharg gets off very lightly compared to the rabid frothing of some fandoms.
Oh we're complete luvvies in the scheme of things*.
*Unless you're Tony Lee, Alan Martin, Hilary Robinson, Alan McKenzie, John Byrne, Frank Miller, Mark Millar or Mike Fleisher, in which case we're bloody 'orrible. And only the last few deserved it.
and even then Mark Miller has 'fessed up his crimes during the Summer offensive and seems a decent chap, chasing Trolls, giving Libraries to schools and such, can't say as much for his Brother Frank
Quote from: Proudhuff on 30 September, 2013, 12:17:59 PM
and even then Mark Miller has 'fessed up his crimes during the Summer offensive and seems a decent chap, chasing Trolls, giving Libraries to schools and such
Although it must be said that his
comics are still shit.
Cheers
Jim
I'm going to stand by the Summer Offensive here (though Maniac 5 was a bit muck), and say that Mark Millar's major crimes were against Robohunter and, in particular, Dredd. I haven't read much of his yank comics, but Red Son and Kick-Your-Arse were ok.
Frank Millar, on the other hand, is a very bad writer and also a bit of a gimp.
Both Millers are ad bad as one another but for completely different reasons. Frank is a masogynistic arse wipe who thinks women are little more than (to quote the greatest masogynist of them all) little more than machines for making babies. Mark is just a terrible writer and resorts to bog standard shock factors to get a reaction and to get teenagers to read his drivvel.
Quote from: JayzusB.Christ on 30 September, 2013, 12:37:48 PM
I'm going to stand by the Summer Offensive here (though Maniac 5 was a bit muck), and say that Mark Millar's major crimes were against Robohunter and, in particular, Dredd. I haven't read much of his yank comics, but Red Son and Kick-Your-Arse were ok.
Frank Millar, on the other hand, is a very bad writer and also a bit of a gimp.
I thought the summer offensive was excellent to be fair, even Maniac 5.
Cheers
Quote from: Proudhuff on 30 September, 2013, 11:07:36 AM
Quote from: The Enigmatic Dr X on 28 September, 2013, 09:48:16 AM
If Tharg wasn't an omnipotent alien, I'd say that - judging by this week's Damage Report - a nerve has been touched.
Although, it's not the length of time between stories that bothers me, it's their "tale told, go home" nature.
Surprised to see Damage Report getting grumpy like that too, still but must be difficult sitting taking it day in /out from boarders
Yeah, but praise is the path to the dark side. Praise leads to worship. Worship leads to obsession. Obsession leads to
fanboy. ;)
I think this forum has a good mix of opinions. There is little value if everyone just says everything in the prog is fantastic. Likewise, its no better if folks are just offensive about stuff. Most folks on here appreciate the work the creators do but will say what they like/dislike and why. This thread highlights what a thoroughly civilised bunch we are as on any other forum it would have crashed in flames by now.
Quote from: Hawkmonger on 30 September, 2013, 12:51:18 PM
Mark is just a terrible writer
What's interesting about the idea of Millar being a 'terrible' writer is just how quickly he became extremely technically competent. Though he wrote unmitigated rubbish for 2000AD he was always very good at the actual mechanics of story-telling through sequential art – it just happened that the stories he told weren't worth telling. Compare Millar to a some early efforts by writers in the Megazine – plenty of them had great ideas but took a while to really get a handle on the flow of dialogue, panel / page transitions, how much to include in a panel, what to show / what to tell, that sort of thing. Even Millar's earliest work has a really solid grasp of that aspect of writing. Doesn't mean I like his comics though (as you say - tired attempts to shock, needlessly mean-spirited) but he's not without talent.
Quote from: Proudhuff on 30 September, 2013, 12:17:59 PM
and even then Mark Miller has 'fessed up his crimes during the Summer offensive and seems a decent chap, chasing Trolls, giving Libraries to schools and such, can't say as much for his Brother Frank
I couldn't agree with you more! :o
Oh shit, that was supposed to be a laugh at the end! :lol: (that's more like it!)
Quote from: Fungus on 19 September, 2013, 02:30:00 PM
Quote from: Grant Goggans on 18 September, 2013, 03:57:21 PM
I'm sorry to see there's so much typed resistance here to my suggestion of longer runs for thrills.
To be honest, if Tharg were to announce that the next Slaine, painted by Simon Davis, would be running for nine or ten months next year, I'd probably be disappointed because (a) I don't like Slaine [and (b) it would keep Davis too busy to paint more Ampney Crucis]
......
I'd love to see a really long Ampney Crucis case
Can't have it both ways. Happy for long runs of the strips you like, unhappy at longer runs when you don't? Slaine seems to be best-loved strips so dismissing that is probably a minority view.
I missed this reply. Sorry for that.
Let me clarify my position: if a Mills/Davis Slaine were given the go-ahead for a run of eight or nine months, I would be personally disappointed for the two reasons that I gave.
--Let me interrupt there. It's already been given the go-ahead for
some number of episodes, and I'm personally disappointed about that for those two reasons. --
But it wouldn't change the fact that I love 2000 AD. I happily keep up with my fun charts and my stats, and I find someplace to blog about the comic when I'm feeling enthusiastic about it. I'd be very happy to see that the editor has seen the light and commissioned a big run of 48 straight episodes of Slaine. Because the alternative is another case of... the same 48 episodes over five years or something.
But to clarify: while I personally would prefer a solid long run of Ampney Crucis, Indigo Prime, Sin Dex, or Dandridge, I will very happily take a solid long run of *any* thrill from Tharg's arsenal as evidence that our editor is interested in doing something new and shaking up the regular 12/13-week structure, whether by democratic poll or cruel alien dictation. And no matter what gets that commission, I will not ever complain on this forum or anywhere else that I'm bored of that thrill and wish it would end so something else could start.
Quote from: Grant Goggans on 30 September, 2013, 05:33:54 PMAnd no matter what gets that commission, I will not ever complain on this forum or anywhere else that I'm bored of that thrill and wish it would end so something else could start.
Bookmark this post, gentlebeings, save you searching for it later! ;)
No takebacks.
Quote from: Greg M. on 30 September, 2013, 02:50:34 PMWhat's interesting about the idea of Millar being a 'terrible' writer is just how quickly he became extremely technically competent.
That was arguably more a matter of career survival, as by the time he was working on Adventures of Superman it was sink or swim time - either he delivered something companies could print or he was out of chances and/or reflected Morrison glory. He turned in some really good work during this time, all the same, and the Mark Millar of this brief period has been an enduring influence on writers like Bryan K Vaughan and Jeff Parker. It's a shame he was later replaced by a shyster snake-oil salesman.
I haven't seen this Damage Report yet, but if Tharg's as aggravated as implied on the previous page, you guys are making me worry that he's about to commission an eight-month run of Mother Earth just to shut our whinin' traps!
But no, I'd like to see longer runs and/or residencies, and so it would be hypocritical to complain that the Mighty One gave the honor to the "wrong" strip. Bookmark away.
Responding to Sheldipez in the prog thread:
Well, this old man recalls that The Empire Strikes Back was a huge cultural event that had everybody talking about its plot for years after the movie left theaters. We collected Empire Strikes Back trading cards and played with Empire Strikes Back action figures, and reread the Empire Strikes Back comic book adaptation, and listened to the Empire Strikes Back storybook LP, and played crummy Atari 2600 Empire Strikes Back video games, and we saw "Luke, I am your father" parodied on sitcoms and variety shows for years, and basically had a gigantic cultural memory of The Empire Strikes Back living on for three years, those two hours, which even in those days when a DVD was not available 11 weeks after the movie opened, played and replayed constantly in our little ten year-old heads.
Book Two of The Ten-Seconders had, even Tharg must agree, substantially less impact on the brain of anybody who didn't write or commission the damn thing.
True, this old man got a good smile and chuckle from Damage Report, because I can take some teasing, but man alive, talk about a false equivalency.
I would worry if I thought Tharg was arguing an equivalence with Empire Strikes Back - one of the most popular and successful movies of all time and a cultural event whose impact is still felt even today, generations (plural) of sci-fi (and non sci-fi) fans after it's release - and anything at all in 2000ad, even its flagship character. True, Tharg is pissing on the graves of all of 2000ad's challengers from Toxic! to Clint*, but it really isn't even remotely the same thing.
Crazy to even suggest it, I know, but I suspect he was joking.
* and Strip, too, if he could find its grave, but all we have to go on is that it parked its car by a notorious bridge and failed to leave any kind of note for its contributors so they knew either way.
Could a portion, say maybe half-a-page, of the Year-End prog be given over to an series checklist - a la the Prog 800 micro-guide - of every series/serial that was published that year and the respective progs they appeared in? Sort of like an Annual Index?
NECROPOST! As pointed out in the Forthcoming Attractions (http://forums.2000adonline.com/index.php/topic,35334.msg817847.html#msg817847) thread, Tharg appears to be answering the prayers of those hankering for long residencies of strips composed of shorter runs of individual stories of 1,2,3 or 4 parts each. Indigo Prime is coming soon, but what do y'all reckon to the recent run of Grey Area, which followed this format?
That strip really isn't my kind of thing, and each story gets a speed read without my thinking about it long enough to even have an opinion on it, but I've got to admit it wasn't the pain in the arse I thought having a strip I'm not interested in as a semi-permanent fixture would be. Is this the way to avoid the boredom of stories that drag on forever without flooding the comic with stories that never get a chance to bed-in?
Grey Area was a fine long term resident, I didn't crave the next episode, but looked forward to reading it week by week
Art wise, Goddard is an underrated talent, and his solid inks were no small part of my enjoyment of the strip.
In my eyes, a quiet success.
Yup, I've enjoyed Grey Area a lot and would be happy to see it for many more weeks.
Quote from: James Stacey on 30 September, 2013, 12:02:35 PM
'please dear god no more sexy ostriches'
This is one complaint I could never understand. For me, there can never be enough sexy ostriches.
I really enjoy grey area. at a time when I have considered canceling my sub its one of the few strips I have enjoyed of late. Dredd without Wagner struggles to be relevant for me and a crushing blow was dealt when my much wanted Johnny alpha appears to have bitten the bullet for the second time. Alongside the usual repetitions of slaine and ABC warriors (im struggling to maintain interest with either strip) and sinister Dexter (not my thing), its the inclusion of strips like grey area that keep me tenuously hanging on for the next Wagner Dredd and the hopeful promise that after lifting my spirits ressurecting strontium dog that it wasn't all just brought to an abrupt close.
Anyway, thumbs up for grey area for me. I hope it gets to continue.
Quote from: Simon Penter on 24 March, 2014, 10:56:27 PM
I really enjoy grey area. at a time when I have considered canceling my sub its one of the few strips I have enjoyed of late. Dredd without Wagner struggles to be relevant for me and a crushing blow was dealt when my much wanted Johnny alpha appears to have bitten the bullet for the second time. Alongside the usual repetitions of slaine and ABC warriors (im struggling to maintain interest with either strip) and sinister Dexter (not my thing), its the inclusion of strips like grey area that keep me tenuously hanging on for the next Wagner Dredd and the hopeful promise that after lifting my spirits ressurecting strontium dog that it wasn't all just brought to an abrupt close.
Anyway, thumbs up for grey area for me. I hope it gets to continue.
I very much doubt Alpha is dead
Alpha, should have stayed dead, but he's not dead - clearly. He'll be back. Which is a shame. I think the only time I've reallyfelt that 2k has let me down.
Sláine - oh please. This more than ran it's course. Even without seeing prog 1874, I don't care how pretty it looks, or how well it reads. I would be happy if Sláine was dead & buried. Surely Tharg must have some fresh ideas up his sleeves?
Sinister Dexter - maybe a great short run story, but hated how it was dragged out forever & a day too long.
Other stories that went on too long Friday/Rogue Trooper, ran out of steam & then kept going. Though I am interested to see what IDW do with this.
ABC - once one of my favourites, now a story I don't read & flick through.
I don't like what Wagner did to Mega City 1 (DoC), seemed far too extreme. While I respect creators need to be credited, I feel all of characters are Thargs to command. I always felt Dredd was meant to be just another Judge, not the saviour 'super' Judge that often he's been portrayed to be. Dredd's back up cast of Giant, Rico & such like seem to have been sidelined in recent times. Though it's been nice to see 'Beeny'(?) a bit more.
Okay, I'm rambling & the point I'd set out to make has escaped me. I want to see another x more years of 2k. I just think I'd rather see better & a bit more variety.
Quote from: Skullmo on 25 March, 2014, 12:12:06 AM
Quote from: Simon Penter on 24 March, 2014, 10:56:27 PM
I really enjoy grey area. at a time when I have considered canceling my sub its one of the few strips I have enjoyed of late. Dredd without Wagner struggles to be relevant for me and a crushing blow was dealt when my much wanted Johnny alpha appears to have bitten the bullet for the second time. Alongside the usual repetitions of slaine and ABC warriors (im struggling to maintain interest with either strip) and sinister Dexter (not my thing), its the inclusion of strips like grey area that keep me tenuously hanging on for the next Wagner Dredd and the hopeful promise that after lifting my spirits ressurecting strontium dog that it wasn't all just brought to an abrupt close.
Anyway, thumbs up for grey area for me. I hope it gets to continue.
I very much doubt Alpha is dead
Quote from: Skullmo on 25 March, 2014, 12:12:06 AM
Quote from: Simon Penter on 24 March, 2014, 10:56:27 PM
I really enjoy grey area. at a time when I have considered canceling my sub its one of the few strips I have enjoyed of late. Dredd without Wagner struggles to be relevant for me and a crushing blow was dealt when my much wanted Johnny alpha appears to have bitten the bullet for the second time. Alongside the usual repetitions of slaine and ABC warriors (im struggling to maintain interest with either strip) and sinister Dexter (not my thing), its the inclusion of strips like grey area that keep me tenuously hanging on for the next Wagner Dredd and the hopeful promise that after lifting my spirits ressurecting strontium dog that it wasn't all just brought to an abrupt close.
Anyway, thumbs up for grey area for me. I hope it gets to continue.
I very much doubt Alpha is dead
I asked Wagner back in February about Alpha, & he said:
What was it Mark Twain said - Rumours of my death are greatly exaggerated?
Quote from: Judge Olde on 25 March, 2014, 12:19:59 AM
Sláine - oh please. This more than ran it's course. Even without seeing prog 1874, I don't care how pretty it looks, or how well it reads. I would be happy if Sláine was dead & buried. Surely Tharg must have some fresh ideas up his sleeves?
Not a Slaine fan either and when it's been good it's always been the art. Some of the Celtic gibberish can also affect that too on a bad day...
No prog 1874 yet here but from the podcasts, it'll be a bit slower and more 'cinematic' in scope (potentially rubbish analogy but you know what I mean). Looking forward to Simon Davis turning Slaine into a silk purse.
Some really good points there Judge Olde, especially around Dredd. The introduction of Gerhart has been a facinaqting counter balance to him reacently. Z
Quote from: Judge Olde on 25 March, 2014, 12:19:59 AM
I don't like what Wagner did to Mega City 1 (DoC), seemed far too extreme ... I always felt Dredd was meant to be just another Judge, not the saviour 'super' Judge that often he's been portrayed to be.
Day of Chaos is a great example of a story where Dredd is the irresistible hero who always saves the day.
Your post manages to discuss every story in
2000ad except the one I was asking about. Most of this thread consists of a discussion of the merits of giving newer strips extended runs in the prog to help the reader get accustomed to the characters and the world, rather than the usual six or eight part runs, published months apart. The recent
Grey Area followed just such a format,
what did everyone think of that format (rather than the story itself)?
Yes extended runs of new stuff is welcome. I've much preferred Grey Area over long time residents like Slaine, ABC warriors, Flesh & Strontium Dog which all leave me cold to where I started skipping the later parts.
If 2000AD featured an extended run of both Slaine and Sinister Dexter, perhaps also with the ABCs, I'd be the world's happiest bunny, as they are the reason ive stuck with it over the years and are by far the best things it has run. Why not rest Dredd for a while, instead of so much filler (he says devil's advocately), and only bring it back when Wagner or Carroll, etc, have a strong story to tell?
SBT
I think the Grey Area formula has worked brilliantly. One of the strengths of the strip is that it's a very simple set up to explain, which means even readers who've missed episodes can enjoy individual stories without lots of background knowledge.
I'm becoming increasingly tired of Dredd. It's becoming too dark and, frankly, dreary. I prefer the wackier, more humorous Dredd of the old days - but when we get stories that try to recapture that spirit we get rubbish satires of Britain's Got Talent.
It seems to me that Dredd has become a soap opera, but a soap opera for which the writers don't talk to each other. I don't think this 'if Wagner didn't write it, he can ignore it' is very helpful to, or respectful of, the readers.
I don't think Dredd necessarily suffers from being too dark nowadays, what I think it suffers from is having a core writer who has become the strip. All other Dredd becomes irrelevant (for me at least) as it is basically non canon filler until the next Wagner story comes along......unfortunately wagners contributions seem to be getting further and further apart.
As for extended runs, yes they are beneficial. The comic benefits from the consistency each week. The problem is sometimes I come up against two or three extended runs of series that I don't care for (such as sinister Dexter or ABC warriors.....or Ulysses sweet) all at once whilst Dredd runs along without Wagner. At that point I find it hard to be bothered. When strontium dog was running alongside grey area recently I was at least happy to see both of them.
So, at the risk of repeating myself, more extended runs of grey area please, get John alpha back to adventurous pseudo western bounty hunting (and im happy for them to retcon wulf back into the strip too!) and pay Wagner whatever he wants to spend more time on Dredd!
PS. So happy to see simon coleby and Colin macneil (and of course John Wagner on Dredd) in the prog. Good stuff!
Quote from: Simon Penter on 25 March, 2014, 08:15:45 AM
I don't think Dredd necessarily suffers from being too dark nowadays, what I think it suffers from is having a core writer who has become the strip. All other Dredd becomes irrelevant (for me at least) as it is basically non canon filler until the next Wagner story comes along......unfortunately wagners contributions seem to be getting further and further apart.
Then I think you need to address your shitty attitude to other Dredd writers, rather than pin your hopes on John writing more Dredd stories. I'm pretty sure that if he wanted to, he
would, so I'm pleased that he's not churning out additional stories just for the purpose of filling pages with 'canon' stories regardless of quality.
Cheers
Jim
not that I have any overwhelming desire to defend my opinion on the internet but I don't have a "shitty attitude" to other Dredd writers at all and made no such comment. some of the other stories, by Al Ewing , robbie Morrison and Michael Carroll to name but three, have been very good. Dredd is still the one story each week that I am guaranteed to read. But I still feel that the actual core ongoing narrative of Dredd are the Wagner stories.
I hate the use if the word 'fuller' it *is* insulting to the creators who have written and drawn the strips. I do wish people would stop saying it.
Quote from: Richmond Clements on 25 March, 2014, 08:57:48 AM
I hate the use if the word 'fuller' it *is* insulting to the creators who have written and drawn the strips. I do wish people would stop saying it.
It's the kind of disrespectful throwaway comment that makes the internet a tough read :(
And thankfully quite rare here.
Something we hear quite often is that 'nobody writes Dredd like Wagner'.
Personally I think the most successful stories (by other writers) in recent years have been ones that don't try to be like Wagner.
Some of my favourites are 'Doctor What?', those ones about the Victorian time traveller, the one from Al Ewing about the new Judge uniform and Emma Beeby's post DOC story. None of them felt particularly Wagnerish and I think that their less somber tone (perhaps with the exception of Beeby's story) was a good antidote to Wagner's darker take on the character.
I'd just like to add that I have no criticism regarding the quality of Wagner's work, it's just that the lighter Dredd stories are more to my taste.
Sigh......at the risk of missing my actual point, I will refrain from using "filler". No disrespect was intended to other writers and I used it only as any indication of the stories being generally of a non-canonical nature.
I can see where Simon is coming from, but I think the use of the words 'filler' and 'canon' are dismissive of the fantastic work we're seeing from other writers.
It is true that Wagner seems to be the only writer who really makes big, lasting changes to the story and character of Dredd himself, and readers could be left with the impression that other writers aren't going to rock the boat too much or tell a story where anything significant happens to affect the broader narrative.
Recently though, Williams, Carroll, Morrison and Ewing particularly, have been taking an interesting approach, all contributing to a large, shared writer's continuity where each is creating, developing and concentrating on different story elements, characters and ongoing plot threads within the broader story. This approach is really working for me.
The only downside is, the reader can be left with the impression that each week's Dredd is either by Wagner or 'the other guys'.
More eloquently put than I can muster on my crummy mobile phone! I definitely read the two strands of Dredd as being separate. There are the Dredd tales that are extremely unlikely to impact significantly on the main Dredd themes and characters, then there are the Wagner tales. I am not being derogatory to any of the talent or hard work, its just how it appears to me.
Quote from: Spaceghost on 25 March, 2014, 09:34:51 AM
Recently though, Williams, Carroll, Morrison and Ewing particularly, have been taking an interesting approach, all contributing to a large, shared writer's continuity where each is creating, developing and concentrating on different story elements, characters and ongoing plot threads within the broader story. This approach is really working for me.
Me too.
I see where Simon is coming from, and I shared his perspective for a long time, largely born of week after week of going "oh come on, Dredd'd never do THAT", a few thousand convicts taking over a city of half a billion because the Judges have a funny tummy, and Sino-Cit threats that never arrived, but the past decade-or-so has changed my mind. There have always been good stories told by people other than Wagner (and Grant), but the current crop of writers are really adding to Dredd's world in a substantial way, and their stories feel as relevant as anything else. The first time I realised how much my attitude had changed was when I lamented the omission of the non-Wagner strips from the
Tour of Duty collections - they were some of the best bits.
For an example of how well everything is working together, I believe that last week's
Titan epilogue was the first confirmation (in the Prog) that Giant Jr survived the Chaos* - so there's a bit of vital canon for everyone.
I still don't think anyone writes Dredd as
well as Wagner (sorry all), but I no longer he's the only one who can. When I look forward to a new Wagner Dredd it's because I love his work, not because it's going to be 'important'. In fact I think putting that expectation on Wagner, that the next story is going to somehow 'move the plot along' or lay down world-changing factoids, risks spoiling the enjoyment of the work he wants to do these days, which seem to be small clever noirish things.
*Poor old Roake, Hollister, Garcia, Niles and Logan's arm - they really drew the short straws.
I would agree, and to add to that we know that whatever developments of Dredd's world or character may not be accepted by Wagner in his key stories.
What I would love to see is Wagner being involved in shaping the year's stories with a team of key writers, so that he is aware of the changes and involved and so the writers know what is coming. This would work in a similar way to how the Big 2 guide their key story-lines over multiple books.
Quote from: Skullmo on 25 March, 2014, 10:12:17 AMThis would work in a similar way to how the Big 2 guide their key story-lines over multiple books.
Wash. Out. Your. Mouth.
That should read (damn fingers)
I would agree, and to add to that we know that whatever developments of Dredd's world or character may occur, these ultimately not be accepted by Wagner in his key stories.
Quote from: TordelBack on 25 March, 2014, 10:13:20 AM
Quote from: Skullmo on 25 March, 2014, 10:12:17 AMThis would work in a similar way to how the Big 2 guide their key story-lines over multiple books.
Wash. Out. Your. Mouth.
Whether you like the process or not, it is a good way to work when you have multiple writers working across publications and you want to keep consistency.
This was not an issue in the past as Dredds were usually one off tales with no lasting effect, however more frequently writers are developing Dredd's world.
Was merely casting nasturtiums on the track record of this approach.
I can see how it would be cool to do something like this for Dredd (see the success of the Tour of Duty era), but I'd also fear that people would feel constrained and get bored - Wagner in particular, who seems to have a keen sense of what's working for him at any given moment, and likes to be able to just pull the plug (City of the Damned) or give it room to roam (Day of Chaos). Be a lot harder if he was tied into a structure with other writers, and I can't see what he'd get out of it.
Obviously he would be paid for it :P
Ahh, the old 'filler', 'non-canon' thing, so casually hurled out.
Yes, it's really, really insulting, and one of the things that convinced me my alleged talents and however much time I've got left as a writer would be better spent writing my own stuff rather than Dredd. When faced with comments along the lines of "Well, I liked this, but it's not by Wagner, so what's the point?" you do indeed wonder what the point is.
Quote from: GordonR on 25 March, 2014, 11:38:11 AM
Ahh, the old 'filler', 'non-canon' thing, so casually hurled out.
Yes, it's really, really insulting, and one of the things that convinced me my alleged talents and however much time I've got left as a writer would be better spent writing my own stuff rather than Dredd. When faced with comments along the lines of "Well, I liked this, but it's not by Wagner, so what's the point?" you do indeed wonder what the point is.
Gordon, you are better out of it if you aren't enjoying it. I'm not in the "Not Wagner=Not Interested" camp mainly due to the fact that my original tenure as a reader was during the Ennis/Millar interegnum so I have no great loyalty to one writer over another. I like what the other writers bring to the table as they invariably have similar interests to mine (Dolman and the ever expanding Dredd family being one). Also by having more than one writer the strip isn't solely reliant on John Wagner and his continued interest in the strip.
On the topic of Dredd and canon/filler, maybe Gordon or any of the other Dredd writers (I know Mike Carroll peruses here sometimes) could answer the question that lies at the root of this idea.
If a writer who happens to not be Wagner pitched the idea for DoC or a similarly HUGE story with big repercussions, would it ever been greenlit? Does it have to be given the go ahead from Wagner himself?
I guess what I'm trying to say is, do writers want to write big epic stories that change Dredd forever etc. HOWEVER aren't allowed, or is it just that the "other" writers are quite happy carving out their own bits of Dredd continuity and are generally happy just to work on such a great character?
As a reader with just over a years progs behind him, my Dredd is more Mike Carroll than Wagner so the whole canon point goes out the window.
Also on the actual topic of this thread, I've really enjoyed the format of this latest run of Grey Area. Long may it continue and hopefully in other strips in the future.
Quote from: Dan Banks on 25 March, 2014, 01:38:22 PM
If a writer who happens to not be Wagner pitched the idea for DoC or a similarly HUGE story with big repercussions, would it ever been greenlit? Does it have to be given the go ahead from Wagner himself?
Trifecta?
Quote from: Dan Banks on 25 March, 2014, 01:38:22 PMAs a reader with just over a years progs behind him, my Dredd is more Mike Carroll than Wagner so the whole canon point goes out the window.
Good point. And FWIW I cut my judge lovin' teeth on TB Grover, a partnership which in its own way was Not Wagner.
Quote from: Dan Banks on 25 March, 2014, 01:38:22 PMAlso on the actual topic of this thread, I've really enjoyed the format of this latest run of Grey Area.
Me too. Abnett has one of the most interesting approaches to structuring stories and runs, and it is very refreshing.
I think 'filler' is one of those terms that is not always meant in a disrespectful way by fans but I can see how it would be insulting to creators. You can't have a DoC or Trifecta ever week so what is the correct term for a Dredd tale that is good, but not the best?
Also, I'm not fussed who writes Dredd as long as it is good.
The problem is that anyone involved in publishing and media understands 'filler' to mean 'oh shit we have blank pages/dead air and no time to get anything decent, what crap can we fill it with?'.
Fanboys/consumers seem to think in X-Files terms: mythos versus monster-of-the-week, with the former elevated to 'main course' and the latter to 'sidesalad'. In this they completely overlook the fact that the monster-of-the-week episodes are the enduring successes of the show, and Krycek, CSM and the black ooze just poorly thought-out shaggy dog stories.
Ascribing sole value to 'canon' seems a very adolescent, even anal, way to enjoy things. Enjoy what's on the page for what it is.
The fact that some of the worst Dredd was written by people not at the top of their or anyone else's game shouldn't colour views of what 'counts' these days. Sometimes a godawful 'Inferno' gives us a 'Statue of Judgement', Edgar and PSU.
I certainlly wasn't putting it forward as a derogatory comment, merely implying that the stories don't generally impact upon the Wagner stories. The Wagner strips appear to make all the world changing events and lead character developments. this isn't an opinion I have on others talents or hard work, merely my opinion on how the Dredd strip is managed.
I am sufficiently chastised and shall choose my words more carefully to illustrate my point in future. My opinion remains unchanged however.
Most of have used the same words at one time or another Simon, and it's provoked an interesting discussion.
some interesting comics too... like fillerbunny
Quote from: James Stacey on 25 March, 2014, 04:09:38 PM
some interesting comics too... like fillerbunny
One Google later... cool!
I don't think it's particularly healthy to focus too much on the continuity (or lack of such) between the works of different Dredd writers.
I imagine that the weekly nature of the prog means that scheduling for such tight continuity would be almost impossible, at least without the sort of editorial control that TMO simply doesn't have time for, and I think that even if this were possible, greater editorial control over scripts may even hamper the creativity that often brings out the best.
Each writer has their favourite themes, characters, and subplots - and allowing them the freedom to write Dredd as they interpret the character (barring anything that completely contradicts character or overall continuity) is the only way to let the strip grow. Otherwise we'd just end up retreading the same old tropes and with nothing new to tell.
In my own mind, each version of Dredd by each writer can be standalone, as can any Dredd story - much like the old Legends of the Dark Knight series - I can ignore those stories I don't rate as highly as others, and just enjoy them for what they are, whereas others can be incroporated into my own personal headcanon for Dredd.
Quote from: jackstarr on 25 March, 2014, 04:28:00 PM... personal headcannon for Dredd.
Is this in one of the IDW books?
QuoteIs this in one of the IDW books?
:lol:
Actually, this is a perfect example...my point also applies to the IDW series (and indeed the defunct DC series, as well as the movies.)
If they choose to add a cannon to the helmet respirator badge in order to fight the 101
dalmations dark judges in the IDW series, that's a creative choice that I'm free to ignore. Will I let IDW know my feelings on such a choice? Sure...and if enough other readers also complain then I expect such decisions would be considered carefully in future.
2000ad was punk. Don't let the strip stagnate - Let the creative juices flow!
Quote from: jackstarr on 25 March, 2014, 04:28:00 PM
In my own mind, each version of Dredd by each writer can be standalone, as can any Dredd story - much like the old Legends of the Dark Knight series - I can ignore those stories I don't rate as highly as others, and just enjoy them for what they are, whereas others can be incroporated into my own personal headcanon for Dredd.
Ok, so all Wagner Dredd is cannon and everything else is Elseworlds? :lol:
So Awakening of Angels, that is cannon right?
I also find the idea that only Wagner's Dredd counts to be a bizarre theory that could only be held by somebody deeply ignorant of the strip's history.
Did Wagner come up with Dredd's surname? Nope that was Pat Mills
Did Wagner come up with Dredd's first name? Nope that was Pat Mills
Did Wagner come up with the far-future setting or Mega-City One? Nope, that was Pat Mills in response to Carlos Ezquerra's designwork that Wagner hated so much he quit the series
Did Wagner come up with the idea of there being a whole system of judges? Nope that Peter Harris
Did Wagner come up with the idea of Dredd having a brother who went bad? Nope that was Pat Mills
Did Wagner come up with the idea of Dredd being a clone? Nope that was Pat Mills
So from the first 30 episodes you see the profound impact that writers (and artists!?!) were having on the script - something that took Dredd far away from Wagner's original idea. I've always believed there's a strong argument for Mills to be billed as the third creator of Dredd when you start considering just how big a role he played in its creation. You then have the fact that as has been mentioned Wagner/Grant placed the emphasis far more on OTT comedy/satire than Wagner does by himself.
Quote from: Will Cooling on 25 March, 2014, 05:14:04 PM
Carlos Ezquerra's designwork that Wagner hated so much he quit the series
Got a cite for that? I rather thought Wagner walked away from the entire title when management reneged on a profit-share agreement that had been proposed when he and Mills were setting up the comic.
Cheers
Hun
Quote from: jackstarr on 25 March, 2014, 04:43:11 PM
Each writer has their favourite themes, characters, and subplots - and allowing them the freedom to write Dredd as they interpret the character (barring anything that completely contradicts character or overall continuity) is the only way to let the strip grow ... Let the creative juices flow!
I
s-s-s-e-e-e what you did there, neebs - nobody wants Judge Dredd to turn into Judge Death. I heartily agree with your sentiments, and I don't give a toss about continuity, but I appreciate that puts me in a minority of paying customers round here. Anyway ...
From the response on this thread, I think we can award the Nobel prize for back seat editing to The Goggans Patented Multi-part Narrative Residency Formula. The only niggle I have is that, after checking the length of
Grey Area's latest run in the prog, I've discovered that it only ran for ten episodes over three months - and I thought it had been
much longer. I'm not sure how I'd feel about it or anything else running in solid blocks of 30 episodes, as prescribed by Doc Goggans.
His and
Doc X's ideas involving longer runs of stories merit further discussion, so I'll repost them from the top of the thread. I was thinking that the response this thread attracted might warrant starting a general prog discussion/suggestion thread with a less negative title, but I bet that wouldn't attract half as much input. Comic fans, eh?
Quote from: Grant Goggans on 15 September, 2013, 06:32:10 PM
Age of the Wolf: 29 episodes over four years. This is maddening. These should have been 29 episodes over 29 weeks. Damnation Station: 30 episodes over five years instead of thirty weeks. Finish it and move it out. Make room for what appears to be ongoing, character-based stories.
It's sometimes confusing because our editor refers to each "run" as a series, as British television does, but I call each one a "story" instead. I always like to make a distinction, as Dr. X did, between a SERIES - Strontium Dog, Indigo Prime, Sin Dex - and a SERIAL - a one-off about the event rather than an ongoing cast, like Leviathan, Firekind, or Cradlegrave. The problem is that we have these fragmented SERIALS drawn out over years instead of punched in over the course of a single story. You're absolutely right that AotW, Damnation Station, Ten-Seconders (and so on) have a hell of a hard time when they return after months or years away.
When we were kids and we (a) had the free time to reread each prog many times each week and (b) didn't have the Real Adult World taking up valuable real estate in our brain that should be devoted to thrillpower, this might not have been a problem. But as much as I'd like to remember who the hell the supporting cast of Defoe is, like I once did all them ABC Warriors, I just can't do it ...
We never fell in love with Johnny Alpha because he caught one bounty every couple of years, Tharg.
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 25 March, 2014, 05:17:13 PM
Quote from: Will Cooling on 25 March, 2014, 05:14:04 PM
Carlos Ezquerra's designwork that Wagner hated so much he quit the series
Got a cite for that? I rather thought Wagner walked away from the entire title when management reneged on a profit-share agreement that had been proposed when he and Mills were setting up the comic.
Cheers
Hun
It's been pretty common knowledge - I remember first reading it in the Judge Dredd: Mega-History book in the mid-nineties. Mills goes into it (with quotes from Wagner) in this blog post - http://patmills.wordpress.com/2012/09/22/dredd-the-lawman-of-the-future/
Hi, Will. Campbell's right in this instance.
Quoteso all Wagner Dredd is cannon and everything else is Elseworlds? So Awakening of Angels, that is cannon right?
I didn't say anywhere that only Wagner is canon. He's written his fair share of stinkers ("Phartz", anyone? :P)
Will Cooling has it, with this:
QuoteI also find the idea that only Wagner's Dredd counts to be a bizarre theory that could only be held by somebody deeply ignorant of the strip's history.
Loose continuity is best. Imagine if the Dredd artists over the years were constrained by the same creative restrictions as fans now expect the writers to be.
Quote from: jackstarr on 25 March, 2014, 05:44:50 PM
Imagine if the Dredd artists over the years were constrained by the same creative restrictions as fans now expect the writers to be.
You should see the comments we get on the Facebook page if we dare post artwork of Dredd that doesn't look like Bolland's version...
I think a lot of this debate stems from my initial comments on Wagner and Dredd and I am by no means "ignorant" of Dredd history and the history of the strips development. I think with the exception of a handful of the later daily star strips I have read (and mostly own) every Dredd strip ever published (inclusive of the American version), most multiple times.. I've been aprog reader since around 1980. surely that at least qualifies me to have an opinion on the subject?
QuoteYou should see the comments we get on the Facebook page if we dare post artwork of Dredd that doesn't look like Bolland's version...
That really surprises me. Bolland's Dredd is nothing like Ezquerra's Dredd, is nothing like later McMahon's Dredd, is nothing like Siku's Dredd...etc.
I really thought that the prog readership
enjoyed the artistic freedom in the prog. Even the sexy ostriches.
Go on, post some Siku Dredd or Sam Kieth Dredd to Facebook and let the world explode >:D
Quote from: TordelBack on 25 March, 2014, 01:47:50 PM
Trifecta?
And with one word, you have ended the argument. Can't believe I forgot about Trifecta, great call.
Quote from: sauchie on 25 March, 2014, 05:22:24 PM
His and Doc X's ideas involving longer runs of stories merit further discussion, so I'll repost them from the top of the thread. I was thinking that the response this thread attracted might warrant starting a general prog discussion/suggestion thread with a less negative title, but I bet that wouldn't attract half as much input. Comic fans, eh?
I think you're right to bring this back up but I'd argue that the point was not just about 30+ part runs but in fact about a variety of story lengths, so the thread was slightly on topic.
Having really enjoyed the format of Grey Area, and having the same doubts as others over having 30 consecutive weeks of it, perhaps the next step is to take a similar run (a 2 parter, two one-offs and two 3 parters say) and instead of giving it a consecutive run of 10 weeks, just drop it in every now and again in the style of the 3rillers. This would be particularly good for fledgling characters I suspect. Although I'm sure it would open itself up to the same criticisms that future shocks, terror tales and 3rillers are prone to now.
Quote from: Will Cooling on 25 March, 2014, 05:14:04 PM
So from the first 30 episodes you see the profound impact that writers (and artists!?!) were having on the script
The first year to eighteen months of the strip are very much a case of different writers chucking stuff at the wall to see what sticks. I've observed on several occasions that Dredd really only becomes recognisable as some form of the modern character towards the very end of the Luna-1 interlude, immediately after which he's dragged out of the city and into the Cursed Earth by Mills. It's really only once you hit The Day The Law Died and beyond, almost exclusively steered by Wagner in his John Howard guise, or Wagner/Grant as TB Grover, that the strip really starts to
feel like Dredd as we know him now.
Cheers
Jim
Quote from: Molch-R on 25 March, 2014, 05:48:08 PM
Quote from: jackstarr on 25 March, 2014, 05:44:50 PM
Imagine if the Dredd artists over the years were constrained by the same creative restrictions as fans now expect the writers to be.
You should see the comments we get on the Facebook page if we dare post artwork of Dredd that doesn't look like Bolland's version...
I don't know how you can read some of the comments on the facebook page without killing someone!
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 25 March, 2014, 06:15:26 PM
Quote from: Will Cooling on 25 March, 2014, 05:14:04 PM
So from the first 30 episodes you see the profound impact that writers (and artists!?!) were having on the script
The first year to eighteen months of the strip are very much a case of different writers chucking stuff at the wall to see what sticks. I've observed on several occasions that Dredd really only becomes recognisable as some form of the modern character towards the very end of the Luna-1 interlude, immediately after which he's dragged out of the city and into the Cursed Earth by Mills. It's really only once you hit The Day The Law Died and beyond, almost exclusively steered by Wagner in his John Howard guise, or Wagner/Grant as TB Grover, that the strip really starts to feel like Dredd as we know him now.
Cheers
Jim
I think I may go even further than that. To me 'Classic Dredd' lasts from The Cursed Earth through to the end of Necropolis.
Before TCE it's pretty much proto-Dredd and everything since Necropolis ended is something very different. I guess it's 'mature readers Dredd' or something (from The Pit onwards, not the Ennis, Morrison, Millar stuff).
I think one of the reasons I enjoy stories like the aforementioned Doctor What? Or the one about the new Judge uniform is because they feel more like the Classic Dredd I loved as a child.
Quote from: hippynumber1 on 25 March, 2014, 07:03:50 PM
I don't know how you can read some of the comments on the facebook page without killing someone!
Give me time.
For me, Miller's run on Dredd is classic Dredd and I consider anything else non-cannon.
A topic: To be fair, when Wagner himself decides that whatever he didn't write may not have happened (see that entire subplot about Chopper in Mega-City Two), it does kind of force everything else by everybody else into a subordinate position. "Filler" might not be the right word, but we're comic nerds and we care about things "counting" in the back of our lizard brains.
B topic: Grey Area only ran for eleven weeks, plus the one-off in P2014. Hardly the residency that I'd hoped for. I'd prefer it if it continued into this prog, pushing Sin Dex back until such time as John Burns could paint it some more. *sigh
C topic: Much as I love Ampney Crucis, I'd be happy to wait for more until this new Slaine gets finished. Quickly. Don't make us wait too long, Tharg.
Interesting points.
One thing I think we can all agree on though, without insulting anyone, is that anything set in the Rogue Trooper universe that wasn't written by Gerry Finlay-Day is shite, non-canonical filler.
Quote from: GordonR on 25 March, 2014, 11:38:11 AM
Yes, it's really, really insulting, and one of the things that convinced me my alleged talents and however much time I've got left as a writer would be better spent writing my own stuff rather than Dredd. When faced with comments along the lines of "Well, I liked this, but it's not by Wagner, so what's the point?" you do indeed wonder what the point
That's a real shame. Personally I really liked your stuff on Dredd and hope to see more.
Quote from: Tiplodocus on 25 March, 2014, 11:29:23 PM
Interesting points.
One thing I think we can all agree on though, without insulting anyone, is that anything set in the Rogue Trooper universe that wasn't written by Gerry Finlay-Day is shite, non-canonical filler.
Even Cinnabar?
Quote from: 13school on 25 March, 2014, 11:52:59 PM
Even Cinnabar?
Oh Smith is quite entertaining, but he's not GFD - so it's basically irrelevant fluff. And as for those Alan Moore episodes, who'd have 'em?
A clever thought-experiment that, Tips.
Actually, I didn't like the hits and I never cared much for Cinnabar. I know everyone loves it, but it just wasn't Rogue for me. And I never enjoyed the Gibbons reboot - lovely art but it just lost my attention. So I know Tips was saying it in a mocking way, but I actually feel like that.
Although I wouldn't use the term filler, as it is not filling anything it is people trying to do their best it is just not my cup of tea. And I don't care for the idea of cannon, I just prefer specific artists of writers visions.
I think the Rogue comparison is unfair. At least most of the Rogue stories reached a conclusion.
With Dredd, Wagner is clearly the driving force and we're in a position where other writers will start long running threads in Dredd stories and then never see them through. In the old days other writers would have picked these up, or at least acknowledged them and fudged an off page resolution. Wagner has no interest though, so they're just forgotten.
I don't think it's unfair for a paying customer to describe a story as filler if it sets up a beginning, we get half of a middle and then the writer buggers of and we never get an end. In fact I'd say that's disrespectful to the customer/audience.
Oh Tips, you're such a wag> Brilliant stuff :D :D :D :D
Quote from: O Lucky Stevie! on 26 March, 2014, 08:12:14 AM
Oh Tips, you're such a wag> Brilliant stuff :D :D :D :D
I shall take this compliment at face value.
Quote from: JamesC on 26 March, 2014, 07:47:32 AM
I think the Rogue comparison is unfair. At least most of the Rogue stories reached a conclusion.
Not really. My point was, sort of, that a story is a story is a story. Back in the old days, you wouldn't have had credits on the story so you wouldn't have known who wrote what and whether you should get your knickers in a twist about who wrote it and whether it's, here comes the dreadful word, canon.
Why not just each story as it comes and on it's own merits?
Quote from: JamesC on 26 March, 2014, 07:47:32 AM
I don't think it's unfair for a paying customer to describe a story as filler if it sets up a beginning, we get half of a middle and then the writer buggers of and we never get an end. In fact I'd say that's disrespectful to the customer/audience.
Does that happen THAT often that we need to worry about it? And doesn't it sometimes happen even when "the big writers" are doing stuff? Who got bored during City of the Damned? Who spent years setting up the various Stan Lee and Daughter of Stan Lee threads? (I fucking hope it was Wagner and Grant but I can't recall)
(Plus, you could argue, real life is sometimes like that?)
Quote from: Tiplodocus on 26 March, 2014, 09:06:10 AM
Back in the old days, you wouldn't have had credits on the story so you wouldn't have known who wrote what and whether you should get your knickers in a twist about who wrote it and whether it's, here comes the dreadful word, canon.
There have been full credits on 2000AD stories since #36...
Cheers
Jim
I think it happens often enough that there should be a policy of avoiding it wherever possible.
Emulating the way that City of the Damned was dropped like a hot spud isn't a good thing.
Something that we need to be aware of is that every Dredd story is intended to be re-packaged and re-sold at a later date - it isn't just 'here today, gone tomorrow' the way things used to be.
If you're reading Case Files 25 (or whatever number it may be) and enjoy the Kazan clone story and then buy the following volumes in the hope of seeing the story concluded you're in for disappointment. That isn't a good customer experience.
Quote from: JamesC on 26 March, 2014, 09:49:01 AM
every Dredd story is intended to be re-packaged and re-sold at a later date
The fact material will one day be reprinted does not affect editorial decisions, and nor should it ever do so.
Quote from: Tiplodocus on 26 March, 2014, 09:06:10 AM
Quote from: JamesC on 26 March, 2014, 07:47:32 AM
I think the Rogue comparison is unfair. At least most of the Rogue stories reached a conclusion.
Not really. My point was, sort of, that a story is a story is a story. Back in the old days, you wouldn't have had credits on the story so you wouldn't have known who wrote what and whether you should get your knickers in a twist about who wrote it and whether it's, here comes the dreadful word, canon.
Why not just each story as it comes and on it's own merits?
I'm not particularly bothered about 'canon' but I do think 2000ad as a product should be coherent and I think that individual stories should have a beginning, middle and end where possible.
Some stories aren't really stories at all, their function is to set up dramatic possibilities for the future and to build a sense of anticipation.
Take, for example, the recent episode of Grey Area in which an alien, disguised as Birdy, made a Mysteron like threat to the people of Earth.
That episode doesn't really work as a story in itself but is sets up loads of dramatic tension and anticipation for future stories. At some point it needs to pay off.
If Abnett decides to leave the strip right now and Tharg decides to continue it with another writer don't you think there's some responsibility to the reader/customer to continue and resolve that plot thread?
Quote from: Molch-R on 26 March, 2014, 09:55:02 AM
Quote from: JamesC on 26 March, 2014, 09:49:01 AM
every Dredd story is intended to be re-packaged and re-sold at a later date
The fact material will one day be reprinted does not affect editorial decisions, and nor should it ever do so.
That's as may be but it doesn't stop the situation I've described from being disappointing for the customer.
To coin a phrase, 'nothing ever ends'. L'il Kazan, a dangling thread long thought lost to the Games industry, reappeared to give Trifecta its superb framing device, and in so doing enriched both the original stories and the Dredd universe as a whole. I think it's rather cool that there all these characters and setups out there that we don't hear from all the time: I still want to know what's going on with Rennie's billionaire torturer, and Guthrie's prison ship and whether Choppette survived the Chaos. It's exciting to think they might pop up again, just like Kazan Jr. did, but it's hardly the end of the world if they don't, especially since 85% of them are dead now.
Also, look at all the characters the Dredd writers have given us in recent years: Hamida, Lamia, Joyce II, Gerhart, Maitland, the Hitler, Domino, Community Officer Joe, Dr. Watt, Pax, Deller, the Couch Potatoes ... none of those are Wagner creations. Does anyone want to 'dismiss' that lot?
Even aside form this, the fact that there is such a lot of interesting amusing exciting stuff going in the Dredd strip is what allows Wagner to write what he wants to write, which means we get his best work, and the best possible use of the limited time between Alpaca feeds. And at the same time we get everyone else's best work too, week in and week out. There's never been a time that there were so many skilled, convincing voices working on Dredd, so that you can be pretty much assured that every week is going to be worthwhile.
Quote from: TordelBack on 26 March, 2014, 10:04:31 AM. I think it's rather cool that there all these characters and setups out there that we don't hear from all the time.
Yep - the richness of Dredd is truly impressive these days. I wasn't in a position to second-guess the possibilities of Titan (with Nixon, etc) but it was curious to see people's theories at the time, all plausible.
Also, the richness avoids it coming off as Scooby Doo. It was the caretaker/janitor, y'know, that character who appeared 5 mins ago and was the only suspect. Dredd can go off in so many directions it's dizzying.
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 26 March, 2014, 09:48:24 AM
There have been full credits on 2000AD stories since #36...
Really? I thought it was much longer. Anyway, the point is, what would you do if they started printing without credit boxes again? How would people know which stories were "good" or "bad"without referring to the box?
(I think Edge once did an issue where they never actually put the review mark at the end of the review)
I can see JamesC point - sort of - I'm just not that obsessed enough about things to feel "short changed" or "disappointed" or whatever if things don't get finished off.
Which sort of leads to a bigger question - for another thread perhaps. Imagine sales drop just below the tipping point of r continued financial viability, the Kingsley's get bored, the money runs dry, 2000ad stops dead. Would you be worried that DREDD never got "an ending?" Or would you be happy that you had 137 years of great stories and imagine your own? (which lets face it, will be better than anything those hack writers can come up with).
I would be disappointed it never ended
Dredd should have died in Necropolis.
I know how I'd like it to end but I think the most natural end point in the strip's history was post-Necropolis.
I actually think the Dredd strip needs a big, big shake up. I thought DOC was going to do it but it hasn't really panned out like that.
Quote from: JamesC on 26 March, 2014, 11:19:07 AM
I know how I'd like it to end but I think the most natural end point in the strip's history was post-Necropolis.
At the time, maybe, but so much that is interesting about the character and the world has happened since that coupled with
America it actually feels more like a starting point to me now. The boggy ground that are the years post-Nec in the Prog stories notwithstanding.
Which ties in with my prefered ending - which is basically that Dredd becomes the last Chief Judge of MC1 and sees-in the change back to America and the abolition of the Judge system before being offed by some random nutter/protestor.
Quote from: JamesC on 26 March, 2014, 11:37:42 AM
Which ties in with my prefered ending - which is basically that Dredd becomes the last Chief Judge of MC1 and sees-in the change back to America and the abolition of the Judge system before being offed by some random nutter/protestor.
That's not a bad scenario, but I've always wanted Dredd to just get shot during an ordinary arrest, without any overarching story around it (
caveat: not that I ever want this to happen). It'd be easy to cast him in the Minty role, or to have him assassinated in his moment of triumph, or while distracted by actually caring for someone or something, but that kind of contrived narrative closure just doesn't seem to fit with something so diverse and essentially open-ended.
Maybe the Dante option would be the best one: leave Dredd at a point where his future could go one of several ways.
So its either the [spoiler]Tony Soprano[/spoiler] exit or the [spoiler]Omar[/spoiler] from The Wire exit. Yeah either of those if I had to choose..
I enjoy a lot of the non Wagner stories, Dredd being one of the two main reasons I am still a subscriber. But I still can't escape the feeling as I read non-wagner Dredd that its a separate parallel Dredd universe where nothing impacts on the main continuity. there is a strong ongoing development of Dredd, his opinions and personality, and this development (in my opinion) is exclusively handled by Wagner. Dredd as a character remains stable in other writers stories with the other writers often concentrating on the development of ancillary characters, the majority of whom do not later appear in the Wagner stories. That does create a disconnect between the Wagner strips and other writers strips, or at least it does for me anyway.
I think at this stage of my readership its the aging Dredd stories, written by Wagner, that are where my interest lies, less so in the one off tales of mega city life. Just a personal preference. As such, the end of the Dredd strip for me will coincide with the end of wagners involvement. Anything after that I would see as a continuation of the "alternate Dredd"universe.
I could theoretically enjoy a middle earth book not written by Tolkien, or a culture book not written by Iain banks, but I would still dissociate them somewhere in my mind from the core narratives of the original authors.
Quote from: Grant Goggans on 25 March, 2014, 09:38:37 PM
C topic: Much as I love Ampney Crucis, I'd be happy to wait for more until this new Slaine gets finished. Quickly. Don't make us wait too long, Tharg.
"The Brutania Chronicles, Volume One."
Oh, here we go again.
Quote from: SIP on 26 March, 2014, 03:33:19 PM
I enjoy a lot of the non Wagner stories, Dredd being one of the two main reasons I am still a subscriber. But I still can't escape the feeling as I read non-wagner Dredd that its a separate parallel Dredd universe where nothing impacts on the main continuity. there is a strong ongoing development of Dredd, his opinions and personality, and this development (in my opinion) is exclusively handled by Wagner. Dredd as a character remains stable in other writers stories with the other writers often concentrating on the development of ancillary characters, the majority of whom do not later appear in the Wagner stories. That does create a disconnect between the Wagner strips and other writers strips, or at least it does for me anyway.
I think at this stage of my readership its the aging Dredd stories, written by Wagner, that are where my interest lies, less so in the one off tales of mega city life. Just a personal preference. As such, the end of the Dredd strip for me will coincide with the end of wagners involvement. Anything after that I would see as a continuation of the "alternate Dredd"universe.
I could theoretically enjoy a middle earth book not written by Tolkien, or a culture book not written by Iain banks, but I would still dissociate them somewhere in my mind from the core narratives of the original authors.
I see where you are coming from - but all of that goes away if you forget about who wrote the story and just judge it on it's merits. Doesn't it?
I'm not sure that it does. On some of the shorter more contained stories it might, but I think you can tell when we shift back into Wagner Dredd territory. It takes on more weight and has a different tone. main storylines including chief judges, department structure, internal politics , dredds attitudes and his family relationships develop and unfortunately, for whatever reason, the other writers are limited (or art least seem to be) in how much they can impact on these key plotlines. Other stories can be intelligent, entertaining and interesting tales of mega city 1, but they never feel like core Dredd.
As I've said, just my opinion. But I consider that I'm pretty much text book die hard 2000AD core readership (male, 41, reading since childhood, stuck through the 90's hard times) and as such I imagine thatI'm not alone in this opinion.
Anyway, none of this was ever intended as criticism....just a personal preference that I attach more significance to the Wagner dredds. You can't please everyone all of the time!
And my initial comment was only intended to state that I am enjoying grey area more than other aspects of the comic at the moment and hope it gets some long runs to develop further.
Cheers
Simon.
Quote from: SIP on 26 March, 2014, 07:19:58 PM
?... when we shift back into Wagner Dredd territory. It takes on more weight and has a different tone. main storylines including chief judges, department structure, internal politics , dredds attitudes and his family relationships develop...
Oddly, this makes it sound deathly dull. But it isn't. How odd!
Ha, it does a bit.....but then that's why John Wagner is the writer and I'm the reader!