I'm not enjoying the prog these days - and I know why.

[SmallBlueThing]

I've been perusing this thread from my space-chair in the Negative Zone, while wearing my kirby-krackle-encrusted Gauntlets of Geekery, and I say: I was brought back to 2000AD briefly recently to read 'Book of Scars', which I liked very much indeed- even if I found it desperately odd that they chose to celebrate thirty years of arguably the comic's second most-popular character in such a truncated and cursory fashion (45 pages?) while Dredd got DoC and Trifecta, etc etc. I would buy every week were Slaine in it.

My reasons for not enjoying the prog so much that I quit after 36-odd years are my own, but- along with the fan-fixation on that awful movie- which is where I finally realised I had nothing in common with the intended weekly readership, the comic's continual sameness was a big part. Design, "feel", all of it has felt the same for a decade now. A new broom is very definitely needed, I think- I grew to hate the paperstock, the texture of the paper, the muted colours, the same cycle of series that I didn't like, endlessly- all seemingly pitched at a readership who was very much not me.

None of this mattered- the week I quit (the one after prog 2013) I'm sure someone jumped on board to even it out, but I was genuinely horrified to see the prog looking exactly the same all these months later when I came back briefly for 'Book of Scars'. I feel no inclination to pick up this week's- as I'm sure I'll be able to read 'Flesh' in trade at some point (and 'Age of the Wolf' too, which was the only other thing in the last six that looked appealing).

So- I completely understand that the idea of a continuing roster of -say- Dredd, Stront, Rogue, Kingdom for a year would not be to everyone's tastes. It certainly would not be to mine! But I would happily pay £2.50 a week for Slaine- especially if by Clint Langley. Horses for courses.

SBT

[Jim_Campbell]

I can't remember what happened in the last series of brass sun,

There's a really quite succinct summary of the last series of Brass Sun on the inside front cover. Everything else you should be able to infer as you go along.

I'll confess to some frustration with this relatively modern complaint that you should be able to understand every single aspect of an ongoing series by reading six pages of it. My first issue of 2000AD was Prog 104, in which Strontium Dog was the only series starting. Everything else was in the middle of something, Robo Hunter and Dredd were quite a long way into quite involved storylines. There was a little bit of recap text at the start of each story, and we, as readers, were expected to pick the rest up as we went along.

The only real difference now is that those recap/exposition bits of the strip have been turned into text on the inside front cover to keep the strips tidier for the trades.

The only other way to combat this "I don't know what's going on" complaint is longer runs of strips with shorter breaks in between, which has elicited some fairly negative responses on here.

I'll confess that I'm stumped.

Cheers

Jim

[Frank]

I can't remember what happened in the last series of brass sun, flesh and damnation station it was too long ago ... other (Dredd) writers seem intent on setting up their own plot threads all the time rather than telling a strong complete story. Every story ends with a cliffhanger to be resolved at some point in the future.

The gap between series of Brass Sun is similar to those between Halo Jones and Zenith, so I'm not buying that reasoning for one second.

I agree about the tendency of writers other than Wagner to use one-off stories to tease their upcoming plot threads, rather than tell a satisfying discrete story, though. This has been a problem since the days of Alan Grant's On Meeting Your Enemy (622) and Garth Ennis's Enter: Jonni Kiss (830) - way back in '89 and '93 respectively. I can understand the temptation, but it makes a nonsense of the weekly format.

[Mabs]

I can't remember what happened in the last series of brass sun, flesh and damnation station it was too long ago ... other (Dredd) writers seem intent on setting up their own plot threads all the time rather than telling a strong complete story. Every story ends with a cliffhanger to be resolved at some point in the future.

The gap between series of Brass Sun is similar to those between Halo Jones and Zenith, so I'm not buying that reasoning for one second.

I agree with sauchie, it wasn't that much of a gap was it? I have a terrible memory I kid you not, but I still remember what happened in Brass Sun the last we saw it. Even Grey Area, which I hope will return some time soon.

Oh, and nice to see a familiar face back on the forum! :-)

[Frank]

There's a really quite succinct summary of the last series of Brass Sun on the inside front cover. Everything else you should be able to infer as you go along.

I'll confess to some frustration with this relatively modern complaint that you should be able to understand every single aspect of an ongoing series by reading six pages of it. My first issue of 2000AD was Prog 104, in which Strontium Dog was the only series starting. Everything else was in the middle of something, Robo Hunter and Dredd were quite a long way into quite involved storylines. There was a little bit of recap text at the start of each story, and we, as readers, were expected to pick the rest up as we went along.

You're my brother from another mother, Jim. I was going to use my own example of diving into the middle of Max Bubba/Rage and the final book of Halo Jones. When that book of Nemesis came along, where they all meet up at the point in the future where humans have been reduced to oil in suits, I really didn't have a clue - I just went with it, and it piqued my curiosity about what had gone before and where it was going next.

What more does any reader need to know about Brass Sun than clockwork universe/find the keys?

[Mabs]

Sauchie, I thought Jim was your brother! 

[Theblazeuk]

I have never known what's going on in Nemesis or ABC Warriors and I reckon I must've read much more than the average newcomer to the prog by the time I came to it thanks to some 2000AD lover in the Rochdale library system and a bunch of old comics in my Dad's loft.

[Jim_Campbell]

I found it desperately odd that they chose to celebrate thirty years of arguably the comic's second most-popular character in such a truncated and cursory fashion (45 pages?)

First: good to see you back here, even if only fleetingly. I think I've disagreed with almost everything you've ever said on this forum, but it's undeniably the poorer for your absence.

Second: I think you might need to take a moment and ask yourself how much those 45 pages cost. I'm sure Tharg was able to negotiate a page rate somewhere between the oil rations he normally offers his droids and the bulging sacks of cash that the likes of Fabry and Bisley command nowadays (and a quick glance at Mick's commission rates suggest he would likely have made more drawing a couple of inked full figure character sketches than drawing a page of strip for many publishers)* but I have no doubt that Book of Scars swallowed up a lot of budget compared to some other strips in the comic.

Cheers

Jim

*Note that I'm not saying that any of these fine gentlemen don't deserve to receive great sweaty wedges of cash for their work, nor that other artists who are less well rewarded don't deserve to be paid better. These things are what they are, unfortunately.

[radiator]

I'll confess to some frustration with this relatively modern complaint that you should be able to understand every single aspect of an ongoing series by reading six pages of it. My first issue of 2000AD was Prog 104, in which Strontium Dog was the only series starting. Everything else was in the middle of something, Robo Hunter and Dredd were quite a long way into quite involved storylines. There was a little bit of recap text at the start of each story, and we, as readers, were expected to pick the rest up as we went along.

I think you're misinterpreting a little. The issue for me is how the stories are conceived and written. 2000ad suits a certain style of storytelling - broad, action-packed sci fi with a twist. It's hard to articulate, but a lot of the more modern series feel a bit, I dunno, wishy washy to me. They lack that certain spark of what makes a good serialised story work.

I agree about the tendency of writers other than Wagner to use one-off stories to tease their upcoming plot threads, rather than tell a satisfying discrete story, though. This has been a problem since the days of Alan Grant's On Meeting Your Enemy (622) and Garth Ennis's Enter: Jonni Kiss (830) - way back in '89 and '93 respectively. I can understand the temptation, but it makes a nonsense of the weekly format.

Yeah, I agree - Wagner seems to have a knack for layering in these seeds for future stories very organically, and telling a good story while he does so. But when other writers do it, it can sometimes feel a bit mechanical, and at the expense of the story at hand.

[Frank]

I have never known what's going on in Nemesis or ABC Warriors and I reckon I must've read much more than the average newcomer to the prog by the time I came to it thanks to some 2000AD lover in the Rochdale library system and a bunch of old comics in my Dad's loft.

So is the Viking's mutation being a Viking? What was his name before he went rogue? If Torquemada's died before and it didn't make any difference, why does Nemesis keep bothering to try and kill him again? If he's a Celtic warrior, what's he doing in the medieval France? Is Tharg supposed to be annoying? Questions which are a rite of passage for any new reader.

[Jim_Campbell]

The issue for me is how the stories are conceived and written. 2000ad suits a certain style of storytelling - broad, action-packed sci fi with a twist. It's hard to articulate, but a lot of the more modern series feel a bit, I dunno, wishy washy to me. They lack that certain spark of what makes a good serialised story work.

I'll be honest — I think there's something to this. I think a more 'mature' approach to storytelling sometimes works against a weekly serial format.

I was thinking about Damnation Station (keeping in mind that my love for Al Ewing's work borders on the unhealthy) and, whilst I remember quite enjoying it while it was running, I can remember almost nothing about the characters or even much about the milieu (undeniably clever though it is). Some key visuals stick in my mind, but that's about it.

Compared with the (broadly equivalent) VCs, which basically had Snow White and the Seven Dwarves levels of characterisation. The VCs were: Normo, Grumpy, Sneaky, Loony, Baldy and Chinese. That was it. You could infer all these complex character traits by looking at them.

Can I claim that any part of the VCs was great literature? No, of course not, but, by God, I didn't have any trouble keeping the characters straight in my head. Motivation? Not getting killed by the Geeks.

All the stories took place in the space created by those simple characters and premise. There's definitely merit to it.

Cheers

Jim

[Theblazeuk]

So is the Viking's mutation being a Viking? What was his name before he went rogue? If Torquemada's died before and it didn't make any difference, why does Nemesis keep bothering to try and kill him again? If he's a Celtic warrior, what's he doing in the medieval France? Is Tharg supposed to be annoying? Questions which are a rite of passage for any new reader.

Heh, funnily enough Strontium Dog never fussed me. Of courseWulf is a viking.

[Proudhuff]

The issue for me is how the stories are conceived and written. 2000ad suits a certain style of storytelling - broad, action-packed sci fi with a twist. It's hard to articulate, but a lot of the more modern series feel a bit, I dunno, wishy washy to me. They lack that certain spark of what makes a good serialised story work.

I'll be honest — I think there's something to this. I think a more 'mature' approach to storytelling sometimes works against a weekly serial format.

I was thinking about Damnation Station (keeping in mind that my love for Al Ewing's work borders on the unhealthy) and, whilst I remember quite enjoying it while it was running, I can remember almost nothing about the characters or even much about the milieu (undeniably clever though it is). Some key visuals stick in my mind, but that's about it.

Compared with the (broadly equivalent) VCs, which basically had Snow White and the Seven Dwarves levels of characterisation. The VCs were: Normo, Grumpy, Sneaky, Loony, Baldy and Chinese. That was it. You could infer all these complex character traits by looking at them.

Can I claim that any part of the VCs was great literature? No, of course not, but, by God, I didn't have any trouble keeping the characters straight in my head. Motivation? Not getting killed by the Geeks.

All the stories took place in the space created by those simple characters and premise. There's definitely merit to it.

Cheers

Jim

Spot on Jim, I'd second that, add to this mix the whole TPB and you get our current Situation,


oh and Hi SBT!! 

[Frank]

So after 8 pages, what we all seem to agree on is that Ten Seconder-style four year gaps between series should be avoided and that writers should try to write series and individual episodes which advance the story but are satisfying and comprehensible when read in isolation. All that seems fairly uncontroversial and very possible.

[Jim_Campbell]

All that seems fairly uncontroversial and very possible.

Crazy talk!

Cheers

Jim