MEG 286 - Psycho Killer

[Goosegash]

Armitage: Does anyone else find it a bit odd how little Armitage has featured in his own strip recently? The last story largely revolved around Steele, and it looks as if this one will as well. We've ended up with a situation where the title character seems to play second banana all the time, and I'm not sure why. It's interesting to see an old-schooler like Cooper adapting to new technology, but I wish he wouldn't use the Windows "Impact" font everywhere, it sticks out a bloody mile!

"You Should Be Watching:" Something about these always bugs me, maybe because they all seem to read like revised press releases. I appreciate the Meg has to carry a certain amount of promotional stuff like this to help keep it afloat, but I still think The Heatseekers was a more creative way of dealing with the situation.

I enjoyed the "Bad Manners" collection, there's something about "judges gone bad" stories that Wagner seems to do particularly well. Rebellion evidently have some difficulty finding the right stories to fit the reprint format, but this one worked out fine, I think.

Barker: I remember staying up all night reading "Cabal" when I was in college, but haven't touched another of his books since. I have to admit, this did make we wonder whether I should check out some of his other stuff, maybe crack open the copy of Weaveworld which has collecting dust on my shelf for two years. Those accompanying pictures must be at least a decade old, though. I mean, this was him in 2006: //http://www.sandyauden.co.uk/images/CliveBarkerPortaitR.jpg
Clearly a little more age-ravaged there.

[Dark Jimbo]

I can't stand Treasure Steel- she seems like a ham fisted attempt to tick every PC box possible- an intelligent, tough-talking, black, lesbian, female, arse-kicker with real-life issues, a disadvantaged background, a same gender relationship and an adopted kid to boot. Please! So anti-cliche that she's actually a horrible cliche, if you understand. KILL HER OFF, SHE'S A SHIT CHARACTER.

Heh, I know what you mean.

Every time she turns up, I get a sense that the writer is almost daring us to have a problem with the fact that she's black and a lesbian. Maybe it was more shocking in the 90s when she debuted, but the problem is that I doubt a great many people do have a problem with it, now. So she feels a little redundant, given that her inclusion feels designed mainly to shock.

[Proper Dave]

In response to some highly considered and insightful opinion:

Yes, Treasure's skin-tone is somewhere on the Pantone-scale somewhere other than those who like in rural Buckinghamshire or wherever consider Flesh. Yes, her sexual orientation of somewhat other than zero on the Kinsey bell-curve. And so what? Get over it. What would you have me do, have her running around shouting, 'Lawdy! I sure lub dat riddim! An now I's gonna go an eat me some o'that rriiightious minge!' ??

And yes, incidentally, the Sexy Leather PVC Bitch Who Kills People is the same person from Culling Crew. And rather like Treasure, as a character, is somewhat based on a number of people I actually know. Except for the 'killing people' part.

[Mike Gloady]

What would you have me do, have her running around shouting, 'Lawdy! I sure lub dat riddim! An now I's gonna go an eat me some o'that rriiightious minge!' ??

Thanks Proper Dave.  

It needed saying and you put it far better than I could ever have hoped to.

I, for one, am rather pleased that Sexy PVC Bitch etc has returned.  I liked her enormously in Wetworks.  Indeed, I thought that was easily the best of the Virgin novels.  And not just because we got to "see" (albeit in our mind's eye) Dredd dragged up.  

Althought that was rather fantastic.

[Robin Low]

What would you have me do, have her running around shouting, 'Lawdy! I sure lub dat riddim! An now I's gonna go an eat me some o'that rriiightious minge!' ??

Thanks Proper Dave.  

It needed saying and you put it far better than I could ever have hoped to.

What, you couldn't have done better than a straw man?

The accusation that Steel is just a collection of PC tick-boxes is an easy one to make, but whether it's true or not doesn't really bother me (although on the PC score, I'd be more impressed if the character was a tough as nails black bull, because that really would scare the weedy hetero whiteboys). A far more significant problem is that she's just not terribly interesting in a futuristic police comic.

Regards

Robin

[Dog Deever]

I don't give a toss what colour she is or what she does with her genitals, it adds absolutely nothing to the stories- it's just that it seems to be ALL she is- there's pretty much nothing else. In fact, it takes away from the stories because so many panels are wasted reinforcing her sexual orientation and life issues that it takes any pace out of whats happening. Jimbo hits the nail on the head- it's old, we don't care, get on with the story.
As to the "so what? Get over it" comment... well, it's not me who keeps making a big issue of it- I've only just now passed any comment on it at all. As I say, I don't mind who's fancy she tickles or what pantone shes wearing or the occasional reference to it where it fits with the plot.

I work with people of varied sexual orientation (60% homosexual in one particular place), junkies, crackheads, alcoholics, muggers, burglers, violent psychos who chop people into chunks and bury them, paedophiles, rapists- you fucking name it- I work with them (and get on well with them) and they come from all ethnic backgrounds and religious denominations. So you won't get much joy playing the 'mindless bigot' card with me- I do a job that most average people hold their hands up and say 'No way could I work with them'. And I treat them all like human beings too, because they are.
I have also not made any racist or homophobic comment, nor did I comment on the way she talks- so yer barking up the wrong tree, min- save the stock response for someone who actually says something along those lines. I've personally punched cunts for making remarks like those and the lads in my old job didn't dare tell rascist jokes while I was about.

My opinion is highly considered- I'm not some knuckle dragging, homophobic, rascist cock who's against characters of any ethnic/ sexual persuasion, as your response seems to imply- far from it. I just don't want to read about it in every bloody episode, it should be incidental detail to add colour to a character- I want a story with some action, pace and interesting plotlines.

I'm not knocking you personally, Dave- I don't like the character (as is my wont) as I feel she's a cypher (and a tired one at that) and I'm obviously not the only one who feels that way- there's Jimbo too! Just because I wrote in plain English without any fancy wordiness does not mean I haven't thought about it, or that I'm incapable of- we aren't all writers, some of us have other skills/ jobs.
I already made a suggestion of what to do with her...
:D
Pick the pace up and concentrate less on the personal life of Treasure Steel and I'm happy- or don't if you don't want to, but accept that some people won't like it. We are entitled to dislike it.
More power to you though, Dave- you do a job I can't and at least deserve respect for that.

[Old Tankie]

I'm all for creators coming on to the Forum to tell us about various projects that they're working on but I really don't understand why they come on to forums to defend their work against criticism.  Some of us are going to like their work and some of us aren't.  They're never going to change anybody's mind by taking offence at criticism, it just seems so pointless to complain about it.

They seem to take it personally when it's not personal at all.  It's just a comment about a particular piece of work.

[Roger Godpleton]

I'm all for creators coming on to the Forum to tell us about various projects that they're working on but I really don't understand why they come on to forums to defend their work against criticism.  Some of us are going to like their work and some of us aren't.  They're never going to change anybody's mind by taking offence at criticism, it just seems so pointless to complain about it.

They seem to take it personally when it's not personal at all.  It's just a comment about a particular piece of work.

To be fair, this mindset did lead to Dickgate.

[Dog Deever]

I'm all for creators coming on to the Forum to tell us about various projects that they're working on but I really don't understand why they come on to forums to defend their work against criticism.  Some of us are going to like their work and some of us aren't.  They're never going to change anybody's mind by taking offence at criticism, it just seems so pointless to complain about it.

They seem to take it personally when it's not personal at all.  It's just a comment about a particular piece of work.

To be fair, this mindset did lead to Dickgate.

Hmmm... here we go again!

So we're all supposed to bow down and say- "Wow, all of the work in 2000ad is utterly fantastic, thrill powered and I love it all regardless of what it actually is."
That's the same as hating something before you've given it any chance and is actually more mindless and less considered an opinion than actually saying what you think. What value does such meaningless buffoonery have?

I pays ma money, I takes ma choice and, as a consumer, I'm entitled to say how I feel about the product I have paid for. I haven't been personally rude to the creator in question (quite the reverse- despite a somewhat spiky response, I gave more respect than I received) and I didn't just say 'THSI IS SHIIT AND I HAET IT, TAEK IT AWAE AND BURN PLEEZ! LOL'. I outlined the reason I felt this way in a coherent and considered way. If a creator doesn't like it, it's their problem, not mine. If anyone wants to read obsequious shite, they should sign up under a fistful of usernames and post praise themselves. Not that I'm accusing anyone of wishing to do that- this post is mainly for Godpleton (though if the cap fits, pop it on at a jaunty angle and wear it by all means).

Exactly what 'mindset' are we talking about? The one that says- 'honesty is the best policy'?

[Roger Godpleton]

"Dickgate" refers solely to the John Smith incident, separate from the wider "Thin Ice" crisis. I'm actually in agreement with you DD, I was just saying we got some good laughs out of John Smith when he first popularized the trend before everyone else jumped on the bandwagon.

[Proper Dave]

Note to Self: Don't just let rip and post when angry. Trouble is, there's nothing that sets me off quite like the Anti-PC Brigade, who forever seem to moan about any instance of a character who isn't white, straight and male - or at least, isn't white, straight and male and not treated like some piece of exotica for the jazzmag of the mind. It's crypto-bigotry, plain and simple, and I won't stand for it.

That said, whether one finds the quasi-life of Treasure Steel completely and utterly uninteresting or not, there's nothing about the style of it that's being rammed down anybody's throats. Ooh, er. As it were. There's a good person having a bad day, they're having problems with their partner, problems with their work, might be cracking up and so on.

That this character had to be coloured-in on the page instead of left white and that this partner is of the same sex is entirely incidental. There is nothing that would have been portrayed differently had the character been white, and male, and straight, and having problems with his wife. I'd suggest that the impulse to regard it in a manner of, 'OMG! WTF! Theres a BLACK LESBIAN brushing her teeth!! LOL!' is more to do with the responses of a certain sort of reader than the material in and of itself.

This isn't about me responding to criticism, as such, honest - I just think it touches on a larger and more important point than whether some script I wrote is crap or not.

[Jim_Campbell]

This isn't about me responding to criticism, as such, honest - I just think it touches on a larger and more important point than whether some script I wrote is crap or not.

And yet your knee jerks in such a predictable fashion, Dave. I'm afraid that this isn't a wider discussion about bigotry, this really IS just a conversation about whether people are enjoying your Armitage scripts and, if not, why not?

I've been a big Armitage fan since his first appearance but have found myself losing interest in the character due to the the increasingly dull stories and defensive responses from you.

Bah.

Jim

[Dog Deever]

Heh- No probs, Godpleton- my apologies min- crossed wires, I don't wanna fall out with God (even if you don't exist, except as a crutch for the needy  :lol: )!

OK, now I'm angry.
Dave- I could understand your reaction if I had come on saying:
"I don't want to read some shit about muff-diving nig-nogs in my comics. Get this crap and all it's British culture eroding pinko bullshit out of my comic before I start posting shit to people".

But I didn't. I object extremely strongly to you trying to paint me as some sort of bigot. I read your stories- at least have the courtesy to read my posts properly before trying a character assassination. I won't stand for it either.
I'm glad you feel strongly about these issues but It's something you don't have the monopoly on strong feelings about and I'd put my 'anti-bigot credentials' (for want of a better term) against yours any day of the week.
I'm not one of the 'anti-pc brigade'- I play in an anarcho-punk band where 'socialist' politics are the order of the day- I started the band and recruited members based more on their views than on their ability to play. I support and have been actively involved in various left wing groups and action all my adult life. Anyone who knows me properly will be laughing about your piss-poor assessment of me as a crypto bigotted (and I quote) 'certain sort of reader'. You can keep telling yourself that- but don't bother accusing me of it, get your facts straight before you start hurling accusations.

The point I was making- clearly, several times over is that it isn't incidental in the story. A point that others seem to understand, and yet somehow you can't.
No-one mentioned the ramming of politics down our throats- I've rammed politics down peoples throats many times and will continue to do so. It's what I like about Pat Mills' work in Savage.

One more time (and in case you're struggling with the concept I'll post it in all caps so you can home in on it like you clearly have done with certain points from my earlier posts)...

I DONT CARE IF SHE'S BLACK, WHITE, GREEN, GREY OR SKY BLUE FUCKING PINK WITH YELLOW FUCKING SPOTS. I DON'T CARE IF SHE LIKES COCK OR TWAT. I DON'T CARE IF SHES BORN IN A BARN OR A MANSION.
THE REASON I HAVEN'T ENJOYED ARMITAGE IS BECAUSE OF THE CONTINUOUS DWELLING ON TREASURE STEELS BACKGROUND- WHATEVER THAT MAY BE- AS IT SLOWS THE PACE OF THE STORIES RIGHT DOWN TO A DULL PLOD- BEING, AS SHE IS, A TWO DIMENTIONAL CHARACTER WHO'S EXISTANCE APPEARS TO BE A CYPHER FOR EVERY KIND OF 'EDGY' (IN THE 80'S) CHARACTER WHO HAS EVER EXISTED. THESE ELEMENTS APPEAR TO BE TO MAKE HER INTERESTING AND GIVE HER A PERSONALITY- ONLY (IMO) THEY DON'T MAINLY BECAUSE THEY HAVE BEEN DONE BEFORE AND ARE O.T.T. IN THIS PARTICULAR INSTANCE.

Yes, I happen to be white, straight and male- but it is incidental in this thread. Just because I am all those things does not make me a white supremacist or a homophobe and your sneering implications that I am are far more bigotted and judgemental than anything posted in this thread so far.

Now, I apologise if you think I'm being rude, but my patience and goodwill toward you are wearing thin due to what I consider to be abusive behaviour. I will treat you like any other boarder on here who deliberately rubs me up the wrong way and tries to paint a distorted picture of me or my posts, without knowing the first thing about me- as I'm not in the habit of treating 'celebrities' any different from anyone else.
I've made myself perfectly clear- if you don't want to take anything on board that's fine, it's your perogative to do as you will with your scripts and characters and I would assume you know more about script writing than I possibly could, having only done it twice (badly) for fanzines.

I've had enough now, because the next response to this type of CRAP that I'm forced to post will be very fucking unpleasant indeed and will probably get me banned- I know when someone isn't listening to reasonable, rational argument and never will. You've certainly lost a fair bit of my respect now- respect is something that's earned, not assumed.  If creators had more respect for their readers, then these flare ups wouldn't happen. It's a two-way street.
 :angry:  :angry:  :angry:  :angry:  :angry:

[COMMANDO FORCES]

Breath in, breath out and relax

[Proper Dave]

Thinking about it, you're perfectly right. There's always the danger, responding to points raised by one's own work, of coming across as a partisan leap to its defence - and if I started leaping to defend my stuff from anything that was less than kind, I'd never be stopping. So I'll shut up.

I would like to make clear, though, that my little anti-Anti-PC rant was directed at a general way of thinking, not at any person in particular. If anyone feels that I've specifically called them a racist and a bigot, I apologise unreservedly.