The Political Thread

[Professor Bear]

One would imagine a coalition agreement would also hinge on the LDs not supporting any no confidence vote by the other Westminster parties, whereas the one upshot of a DUP coalition would be their track record for collapsing governments.

[Prodigal2]

It pains me that the overwhelming impression of anything carrying the label "Christian" is that of a right wing Christian jihadist steeped in self righteousness and bent on the establishment of a theocracy or at least the flirting with secular power. It pains me because you do not have to go far to see it borne out either historically or in the modern day.

Spare a thought for socialist Christians who read 2000AD, who believe faith is a personal thing, have no desire to batter anyone with what they believe ,who genuinely despise any notion of a theocracy as a poison and are all too aware of atheists and others who often make me feel like a moral pygmy.

And I'm not the only one out there who feels like this.

[JPMaybe]

Solidarity my dude. Fwiw a religious comrade is infinitely preferable to me than an atheist capitalist.

[Tjm86]

And I'm not the only one out there who feels like this.

No, your not.  At the same time though, I tend to go with the view that some of the views expressed here are perfectly valid for the holders.  I may not agree with them but I don't think it is helpful to pick a fight over them.  Look for the common ground where it does exist and focus on that.  Like the good Lord said, "Blessed are the Cheesemakers."

[Theblazeuk]

Unfortunately that's a road that needs to go two ways, and

Not sure I've parsed the last couple of posts properly. Certainly no one thinks *all christians* are like this, but then people like the DUP/etc claim to speak for all Christians. Or at least what they would say are all real Christians.

[Tjm86]

I always say that the reason I call myself a 'practising' Christian is because I'm not very good at it.

[TordelBack]

I was about to say 'some of my best friends are Christians!', but then I realised that ALL my closest friends are Christians, in various flavours and strengths. By default they put up with my evangelical atheism and I reciprocate. Although now I suspect I'm some kind of charitable/missionary outreach project. There may be a spiritual bounty posted in an ecclesiastical Doghouse* somewhere.


*The Godhouse?

[IndigoPrime]

Spare a thought for socialist Christians who read 2000AD, who believe faith is a personal thing, have no desire to batter anyone with what they believe

I have no problem with any of that. For me, the last bit is the most important. I have a kid who will start school soon. My options in the local area are Christian schools. That's it. I see no place for worship inside of a school, but there's no escape from it. Similarly, any notion any level of government should be directed by 'god' is anathema to me.

I recall Baroness Warsi arguing a while back that any religion was better than no religion. That's just bullshit. If you have faith in a religion, that's fine. But that doesn't make you 'better' than someone who does not. (By the same token, secularists should dial down on the ridicule of people who are religious, because there's no place in a liberal society for that either.)

[Theblazeuk]

I guess ultimately though we're always going to run into a conflict between the secular and the faith where faith is allowed to be a factor in making decisions beyond personal life, and one that can be held to different, unassailable standards of logic or reason.

[TordelBack]

If you have faith in a religion, that's fine. But that doesn't make you 'better' than someone who does not. (By the same token, secularists should dial down on the ridicule of people who are religious, because there's no place in a liberal society for that either.)

This last bit is really important.  There's a level at which blindly accepting atheism and/or the scientific method is just as much a result of faith-indoctrination as any religion*, if no thought or understanding has been applied in reaching that conclusion, and another more considered position at which intellectual rigour is confused with moral superiority.  Mockery of others' beliefs from this standpoint is reprehensible no matter who does it**. 

What matters is results: i.e. how your understanding of the world is expressed in the way you live in it.



*Apart from the bit where it's actually correct. But I would say that, wouldn't it.
** I find the hilarity with which the beliefs and organisation of LDS/Mormons or Scientologists are treated by mainstream Judaeo-Christianity to be staggering hypocritical given their identical levels of implausibility, and I extend that distaste to atheists.

[Tjm86]

That's a fair point.  Dawkins' "The God Delusion" makes for hard reading.  Not so much for the points it makes as for the rabid nature of his diatribe.  In some respects it is probably the best ammunition for theists which kind of undermines his intent.

Probably the best, or most well known, work on this topic was done by Carl Sagan.  Contact.

[IndigoPrime]

** I find the hilarity with which the beliefs and organisation of LDS/Mormons or Scientologists are treated by mainstream Judaeo-Christianity to be staggering hypocritical given their identical levels of implausibility, and I extend that distaste to atheists.

I'm not sure I'd put Scientology in the same camp. Sure, older religions have the benefit of distance, whereas we've seen Scientology play out in real time. The difference, though, is the nature in which Scientology operates: the vicious way in which it has people 'disconnect' from friends and family, the way in which it considers any critics 'fair game, the bizarre copyright aspects to its 'scripture', and the very fact its creator essentially said the best way to make money is to start a religion. It's seemingly mostly a property scam these days. (Downtown Clearwater was never the most exciting place, but it's now effectively dead, although Scientology mostly keeps of the beach key these days at least.)

[IAMTHESYSTEM]

I remember David Attenborough in an interview saying he wished he could believe in God since he felt the reassurance religion gave was something positive for the human psyche. Nature in her raw tapestry is pretty merciless so one can understand that sentiment, but religion requires faith, belief requires faith, and that's the problem. Most of the horrors of the past and this century have been committed by people who believed they were right either by some divine power bestowed on them by an invisible entity, ISIS, Al Queda or because of their system of Government. Hitlers Germany and Stalin's Soviet Union, both which held the State above all other institutions including Religion murdered millions in the name of purity, and we all know how history judged them. Humankind is apparently a tyrant with God and a beast without him and that's hardly comforting.

[TordelBack]

The difference, though, is the nature in which Scientology operates: the vicious way in which it has people 'disconnect' from friends and family, the way in which it considers any critics 'fair game, the bizarre copyright aspects to its 'scripture',...

I might mention seminaries, monasteries and convents in a similar context, not to mention the Inquisition and the heresy of translating the Bible into common languages, and let's entirely sidestep tithing and First Fruits etc, but while I did indeed reference 'organisations', my main accusation of hypocrisy was more to do with mockery of the beliefs than the money-making controlling operation itself: I fail to see how the e-meter is any weirder a device than a thurible, or thetans any dafter than angels: for starting values of 'very', at least.

I remember David Attenborough in an interview saying he wished he could believe in God since he felt the reassurance religion gave was something positive for the human psyche. Nature in her raw tapestry is pretty merciless...

I'm with Attenborough there (as in all things), for all that I embrace the thrilling existential vertigo and endless puzzle that the solely material world engenders, I'd also love to have the faith I had when I was a kid.  But I think that ship has long-since sailed.

[Tjm86]

The difference, though, is the nature in which Scientology operates: the vicious way in which it has people 'disconnect' from friends and family, the way in which it considers any critics 'fair game, ...

Can I politely suggest you take a closer look at the Catholic Church?