Looking back

[Jim_Campbell]

The Megazine was the worst thing ever to happen to the prog. Wagner only wrote Dredd stories for the Megazine for the next four years. I think more highly of Ennis's work in this period than most -- for every bad story there was a good one, e.g. Raider -- and you have to remember he was in his early twenties when he was given the comic's flagship character. The quality really declined after he left and was replaced by Mark Millar, Grant Morrison (who should have been really good but wasn't) and "Sonny Steelgrave".

You may have the cart before the horse to an extent, there. A lot of beloved creators appeared almost exclusively in the Megazine during this period because they couldn't get into the prog — Alan McKenzie was writing a chunk of it himself under assorted pseudonyms, for a start, which limited the number of available slots for other writers.

There was certainly a feeling amongst the UK comic freelancers, writers and artists, that if you weren't part of the 'in crowd' then you couldn't even get your 2000AD pitches looked at*. By contrast, David Bishop over at the Meg was a hard man to please, but judged pitches on their merits, so people gravitated towards the Meg.

*Think of how many pages were being taken up in the prog by Michael Fleischer material... who was a personal friend of Richard Burton.

[Funt Solo]

You inspired me to go back and read my reviews of Fleisher-era stuff, because the high concepts are like things any child would do with their toys, but don't come close to any sort of narrative logic.

In the Nu Harlems, we get a psycho-cyborg that doesn't know that trains travel on rails, so starts murdering people. In Nu Rogue Lite, we get:

- the security system on a stolen aircraft kicks in once you've taken off, and then flies you into space.
- Thur5day jumping on and hot-wiring a cruise missile whilst it's in flight.


It didn't make much more sense with White's stuff, though. In Angels, they quickly superglue a wing back onto a downed fighter jet to quickly win the day.

With all the changes I tracked while reviewing it, I calculated that RT(F) became a retcon of a retcon of a retcon of a retcon of a reboot!

[JohnW]

You inspired me to go back and read my reviews of Fleisher-era stuff

These reviews—if there's more than your (thoroughly enjoyable) short pieces on the 2000AD In Stages site, then please direct me to them, that I may read, and be entertained, and relive those days at a safe distance.
The War Machine was the best thing to happen to Rogue Trooper since I don't know when. Hopelessly loyal that I was, it took me a little while to recognise that the follow-ups were all kinds of awful.
I bailed in 1994, having no idea anymore what was supposed to be what.
Let's knife? Let's blow.

The Harlem Heroes reboot could have been good. Really. I'm just not sure how.

[Tu-plang]

I'll defend a lot of the 90/91 period. I enjoyed Silo (the lack of originality never occurred to me at the time), and we also had Hewligan's Haircut, Shamballa, some great post-Necropolis Dredds, Killing Time, and Revere. And, in the Meg, America, Young Death, Beyond Our Kenny, and Al's Baby. So on the whole it was still a pretty fertile time. Crisis and Revolver were interesting too. That period (along with 600s-era material like War Machine, Horned God) had a vibe all its own--2000AD was growing into adolescence, with lots of pretension and surliness, but it still had a lot of passion behind it. But it was all too diluted.

I was recently re-reading some Thill Power Overload in an old Meg and someone (I think it was Steve MacManus) essentially said they went too big, treating it like a mainstream thing when it was in fact still very niche.

It only got really bad when the prog became the domain of Alan McKenzie, Millar, Morrison etc, all frankly taking the piss. I'm sure I've read Millar saying that he'd never really read much old Dredd at the time, and when he eventually did he was surprised that it was really good. Make of that what you will.

[JayzusB.Christ]

and you have to remember he was in his early twenties when he was given the comic's flagship character. The quality really declined after he left and was replaced by Mark Millar, Grant Morrison (who should have been really good but wasn't) and "Sonny Steelgrave".

I appreciate that Garth was a very young man at the time, but I just can't understand why Tharg would give near-exclusive writing rights of the flagship character to an inexperienced writer whose only prog-work to date had been Time Flies.  I wasn't a huge fan of Raider though I'm in a minority.

I didn't mind 'Steelgrave' (McKenzie?) Dredd too much - I thought Dredd sounded a bit more like Dredd than the Ennis version.  Mark Millar was just dire.  Inferno I kind of liked at the time, but looking back now, it really doesn't hold up.

[Barrington Boots]

The Harlem Heroes reboot could have been good. Really. I'm just not sure how.

I remember being really enthused about the first few episodes of Harlem Heroes reboot. I think it's the art, which is all shadows and hyper-violent exit wounds, because on a reread the story starts off fairly weak and gets steadily worse. Everybody in the story is horrible and by the time the cyborg dude is introduced the plot is nonsense.

Looking over Progs from this era it's mad how good things were in 1989 (Zenith phase 3, Horned God, Cinnabar, Dead Man, War Machine) - then you get stuff like Bradley and Dry Run and then by 1991 you've got Junker, Bix Barton & Millar Robo-Hunter...

[Jim_Campbell]

I appreciate that Garth was a very young man at the time, but I just can't understand why Tharg would give near-exclusive writing rights of the flagship character to an inexperienced writer whose only prog-work to date had been Time Flies.

Ennis was the breakout find of Crisis, and was very clearly a rising star. I have some vague recollection that John Wagner wanted to step back from the grind of the weekly and suggested Garth as his successor.

I mean, Garth says himself that he was too young and inexperienced to carry Dredd week in and week out, but as an upcoming writer in the early stages of your career, if John Wagner puts you forward for 2000AD's flagship strip...? Who's going to say "Nah, I'm all right, thanks" to that?

[sheridan]

Weirdly, for me some of the more grown-up stories from the late 80s and early 90s were high points for me.  Song of the Surfer, the increasing politicisation of Dredd and his city, Sláine doing tits, dragons, castration and politics way before Game of Thrones was a glimmer in George's eye

You say that, but GRRM started writing ASoIaF in the summer of 1991...

[sheridan]

For me the Final Solution in many ways was the beginning of the end for me and few years after that I basically stopped by sub.

I'm going to be the dissenting gobshite here and say that I liked The Final Solution a lot, which is a sentence where italics are very, very important.  I liked the new art styles, the introduction of the religio-fascist party, the harsh contrast between British mutie slums and the stark, barren death-dimension, and the sheer bravery of killing one of the prog's most iconic characters.  I didn't like Johnny being resurrected even it was decades later, and have never liked 2000ad's reversal of its old 'dead characters stay dead' editorial policy.

I await your pitchforks and torches.

I think I'd agree to pretty much all of that.  I like some (most) of the 21st century Wagner/Ezquerra Stont stories, but not the journey to get there (the whole resurrection bit - particularly the way that Feral was disposed of).

[norton canes]

I can't imagine any other time when the writing of 2000 AD's most important character suddenly became virtually the sole preserve of a writer with only one previous credit in the comic

Oh...

[JayzusB.Christ]

I can't imagine any other time when the writing of 2000 AD's most important character suddenly became virtually the sole preserve of a writer with only one previous credit in the comic

Oh...

Wagner?  or Niemand?

[Tjm86]

I'll defend a lot of the 90/91 period. I enjoyed Silo (the lack of originality never occurred to me at the time), and we also had Hewligan's Haircut, Shamballa, some great post-Necropolis Dredds, Killing Time, and Revere.

All of those benefit from some amazing artwork.  Harrison's work on Revere was hard work but suited to the strip.  Hewligan is one of those few comic (as in humorous) strips that actually works.  When you compare it with Straitjacket Fits you can see this in spades.

I'm sure I've read Millar saying that he'd never really read much old Dredd at the time, and when he eventually did he was surprised that it was really good. Make of that what you will.

I have a passing recollection of Millar being on record somewhere as always being more interested in the American superhero market with Tooth simply being a stepping stone.  It certainly comes across in his attitude towards the characters he worked with.

That said, I find even with his American work there is still a somewhat puerile quality to his work.  Some of the moments and dialogue in Ultimates for instance ... Personally I would peg him as a highly over-rated writer who is nowhere near as clever as he thinks he is.

[norton canes]

Clever enough to get several of his titles adapted as movie franchises</cynic>

[Jim_Campbell]

Personally I would peg him as a highly over-rated writer who is nowhere near as clever as he thinks he is.

I don't think he thinks he's a particularly clever writer, he thinks he is (and actually is) a very canny businessman — I think he views his books as product and constructs them with great care (albeit cynically and with very little 'art'*) to hit his target market, both within the comic medium and as adaptable IP for film and TV.

He's very, very good at it, but I find the majority of his work soulless for that very reason.

(Worth noting, for all that sounds like —OK, is— criticism, I think it should also be noted that MM has a reputation for being one of the most equitable writers in the industry when it comes to sharing the proceeds of what is basically a one-man IP farm with his co-creators.)

*By which I mean, his writing is workmanlike, but feels like a careful arrangement of story beats, without any real flashes of inspiration. The art is usually great, because he understands the value of paying top dollar to get really good artists, and how to get the best out of them. (Paying well, basically.)

[JohnW]

I've been watching with quiet awe the way this thread has grown in the past week.
For a couple of months I posted idle retrospectives about things from the eighties, and I'd get a few comments along the lines of, 'Aw – the old days. They were nice, weren't they?'
But I cross over into the nineties and it's chum in the water.