My God's bigger than your God!

[darnmarr]

Sometimes I think that the internet can  be the very worst place for exchanges of this type: some world views are simply irreconcilable with each other. Cheers 'The Prodigal' for your candid statement.

Your personal brand of christianity has much to recommend it over many, and probably all, of the other sects that that religion comes in, and christianity itself has much to recommend it over other, lets say more xenophobic  religions . Forgiveness, empathy, non-violence and a 'doctrine of service to ones fellow man' are all good things in my book, that may sound snarky or glib on the internet so I just want to say that I'm in earnest here.

As for actually believing in a historical man whose actual conversations and biography are preserved in the four books written at least 60 years after his death, and the dissemination of those books according to a master-plan by our ultimate creator ( that subsequently divide us into a 'naughty-or-nice' list- that I've got to stay on the right side of- or else endure an eternity of torment ): I simply cant: I could mouth the words ' I believe ' as easily as I've just typed them, but I don't honestly believe this stuff and I can't honestly believe it and, for me, the whole idea of it seems too distant, too removed from my immediate observable environment for me to lend it any credence.

I do honestly mean no disrespect to you and I appreciate your candour but you can see how arguments break out about things when I say that I don't respect your beliefs, any more than I suspect that you respect mine, ( I don't believe you can when, by your criteria, I shall be denied life-after-death in paradise  for holding them) .

If I've assumed too much I apologise, and perhaps it would have been best to drop the topic because I really don't want to get into an atheist/christian catfight, but I saw your list and it smelt like a weary list of things that you're sick of hearing to me, and it reminded me of things that I'm weary of saying.

Although looking over the length of this post apparantly I'm not that weary.

Please insert appropriate parting salutation(I say 'Godbless' all the time BTW:old habit ).

[NapalmKev]

Thanks to all that have contributed to this post. Discussions of any real pertenance are in short supply where I live.

Cheers/Peace 

[Goaty]

Has 2000AD Holy War start yet?


Can't believe this thread! 

[The Prodigal]

Sometimes I think that the internet can  be the very worst place for exchanges of this type: some world views are simply irreconcilable with each other. Cheers 'The Prodigal' for your candid statement.

Your personal brand of christianity has much to recommend it over many, and probably all, of the other sects that that religion comes in, and christianity itself has much to recommend it over other, lets say more xenophobic  religions . Forgiveness, empathy, non-violence and a 'doctrine of service to ones fellow man' are all good things in my book, that may sound snarky or glib on the internet so I just want to say that I'm in earnest here.

As for actually believing in a historical man whose actual conversations and biography are preserved in the four books written at least 60 years after his death, and the dissemination of those books according to a master-plan by our ultimate creator ( that subsequently divide us into a 'naughty-or-nice' list- that I've got to stay on the right side of- or else endure an eternity of torment ): I simply cant: I could mouth the words ' I believe ' as easily as I've just typed them, but I don't honestly believe this stuff and I can't honestly believe it and, for me, the whole idea of it seems too distant, too removed from my immediate observable environment for me to lend it any credence.

I do honestly mean no disrespect to you and I appreciate your candour but you can see how arguments break out about things when I say that I don't respect your beliefs, any more than I suspect that you respect mine, ( I don't believe you can when, by your criteria, I shall be denied life-after-death in paradise  for holding them) .

If I've assumed too much I apologise, and perhaps it would have been best to drop the topic because I really don't want to get into an atheist/christian catfight, but I saw your list and it smelt like a weary list of things that you're sick of hearing to me, and it reminded me of things that I'm weary of saying.

Although looking over the length of this post apparantly I'm not that weary.

Please insert appropriate parting salutation(I say 'Godbless' all the time BTW:old habit ).

Darnmarr I have had frequent walks down agnostic avenue and my thoughts on that particular journey have often contained very strong elements of the above. I haven't a problem with any of it and appreciate peoples' genuine doubts and/or simply considering the whole thing hokum.

[JayzusB.Christ]

Having just returned from SE Asia I've met a lot of Buddhists.  Although I've only scraped the surface of it, it seems to be more a philosophy than a religion (as we in the West understand the word).  Although Thais leave food offerings in front of statues of the Buddha, a monk told me that he doesn't see the point of doing this for a man who died about 2500 years ago. 

Anyway cutting out the 'he's still alive and listening to my thoughts' shit seems to me to be a very sensible way to practice any religion that focuses on ancient teachers.  Jesus had some very important things to say, and possibly Mohammed did too (having never read the Koran, though, I struggle to see much positivity and goodwill in fundamental Islam) but I don't buy the idea that they're still around waiting for us to slip up.

[NapalmKev]

I respect the fact that people can believe whatever they want to believe, but various arseholes in positions of power around the world try to force they're own political/religious agendas on the very people they claim to represent. Former P.M and rampant assclown-Tony Blair-was a true purveyor of such nonsense. As was George Bush, bin laden, and many others throughout history.

Belief is fine; but it shouldn't dictate National/world policy.

[Richard]

The Prodigal is my kind of Christian.

I'm atheist myself,* but not everything about religion is necessarily bad or needs to be rejected along with the implausible superstitious elements: Alain de Botton's book "Religion For Atheists" is a pretty good argument for salvaging some aspects, eg art and architecture (as someone pointed out above about the statues).

I don't go around trying to persuade religious types why they shouldn't believe (unless they invite a debate), and in return I expect them not to try to convert me to their faith -- and they never have (well not since school anyway). The only nutters I know of are the ones I read about in the papers.



* It may be topical in the light of recent events to note here that I have Harry Harrison's short story "The Streets of Ashkelon" to thank for crystallizing, and helping me articulate, my skepticism when I was 12.

[Aonghus]

Jesus had some very important things to say, and possibly Mohammed did too (having never read the Koran, though, I struggle to see much positivity and goodwill in fundamental Islam)

I definitely would recommend the Qu'ran, fascinating stuff. IMO there's not much positivity and goodwill in fundamental anything. But Islam preached religious tolerance (albeit of a slightly restriced kind) far earlier than many, if not most, religions. They refer to Christians and Jews as people of the book, and in the 9th century were like "they basically worship the same Gods, lads, it's grand."

Not that everyone always agreed, of course, but that's the problem with theory

[Spaceghost]

I've never been religious, nor was I brought up by particularly religious parents. We used to go to church at Xmas when I was really young and I can remember going to Sunday school a few times but I never once believed it to be anything more than moralistic fairy stories.

As I got older my views never changed. I believe in science and the need to demonstrate with evidence. I am well known, amongst friends and work colleagues, to be extremely anti religion as I honestly believe that a belief in 'god' (regardless of the particular religion in question) is the biggest barrier to human evolution and peace and understanding between us.

I find it hard to discuss the subject without becoming frustrated and angry and, being as honest as I can, not only do I have no respect for the religious beliefs of others, I lose respect for them in general when I discover that they believe in something as ludicrous as 'god'.

In my experience with people I know, people only turn to religion (especially christianity) when they've suffered some sort of catastrophic collapse in their lives (family break down, bereavement, recovering from heroin addiction etc.) and their 'belief' is akin to a drowning man clutching at straws.

I have met nice christians, muslims, sikhs etc. but there will always be a barrier between myself and these people because I don't believe that they are capable of perceiving the world and interpreting it honestly.

A surrendering of one's rational mind to a doctrine or set of rules is anathema to me and is a sign that the individual has relinquished their ability to think for themselves and evolve in a natural way as a human being.

We will never be free until the world is rid of 'god'.

[JamesC]

Horus is now my favourite God after finding out that he spunked on some lettuce!


It's a good job he isn't the same as Jesus or taking the communion wafer could have been a whole lot messier!

[Minkyboy]

I'm a very imperfect Christian who loves 2000AD. Here's my take:

1. I'm a committed secularist-faith and state should not co-habit. It poisons everything. Faith or the lack of it is personal. Keep it that way.
2. Christians should distinguish themselves by service not the pursuit of power whether that be political, economic etc
3. Christians should not want to bomb Iran.
4. Christians should be the least prejudiced people not the most prejudiced.
5. Christians need not set their brains on the shelf-science is good and needs embraced.
6. Jesus was a cool dude. Religion often warps him and his message.
7. Christians are not all ring wing fanatics-some are seditious left wing types (this one is a socialist).
8. God and nationalism are a particularly poisonous mix.
9. A faith questioned is a healthy faith. I question mine constantly from every conceivable angle and often doubt it. I don't get upset when others do the same or raise relevant issues and questions.
10. I know all about ugly passages in the OT,the Jehovah v Jesus thing and the what about tsunamis question.
11.The analogies with other pagan deities is, I believe, over-cooked.
12. I love 2000AD and am looking forward to Brass sun.

Cheers guys (tempted to say God bless).

I'm with Prodigal Block.
I'm also a professional God-botherer.
But don't tell any of those bastards on the 2000AD board, I have managed to keep it quiet so far!

Seriously, the reason I keep it quiet is because most 'Christians' who have something to say in the media/online seem to be lunatics that make me bang my head on my desk while wanting to bang their heads through my desk.
If I was God I would have flooded our asses again ages ago, Rainbow or not!
Although those with flying boats could be a problem.

[Spaceghost]

I had a friend at work who was a born again christian who genuinely believed that the world was only 6,000 (or something) years old, and that dinosaurs and humans had lived at the SAME TIME. When I asked him where all the dinosaurs went he said "They were killed when god flooded the Earth". I asked him why Noah had disobeyed god's command to take '2 of EVERY animal' onto the ark but he didn't have an answer for that.

"OK" I said, "Let's say Noah didn't take them onto the ark for some reason, and that's why there are no dinosaurs anymore.", "Yes", he replied. "In that case", I continued, "what about all the sea dwelling dinosaurs? Surely they would all have survived"

Again, he had no answer for this but his beliefs remained unshaken because it doesn't have to make any kind of sense to him; it is a matter of 'faith' and therefore an absense of logic, evidence or any facts whatsoever is no barrier. In a sense, he won the argument because when you're talking to someone with no powers of reason, you can't win.

[Minkyboy]

I had a friend at work who was a born again christian who genuinely believed that the world was only 6,000 (or something) years old, and that dinosaurs and humans had lived at the SAME TIME. When I asked him where all the dinosaurs went he said "They were killed when god flooded the Earth". I asked him why Noah had disobeyed god's command to take '2 of EVERY animal' onto the ark but he didn't have an answer for that.

"OK" I said, "Let's say Noah didn't take them onto the ark for some reason, and that's why there are no dinosaurs anymore.", "Yes", he replied. "In that case", I continued, "what about all the sea dwelling dinosaurs? Surely they would all have survived"

Again, he had no answer for this but his beliefs remained unshaken because it doesn't have to make any kind of sense to him; it is a matter of 'faith' and therefore an absense of logic, evidence or any facts whatsoever is no barrier. In a sense, he won the argument because when you're talking to someone with no powers of reason, you can't win.

See:

seem to be lunatics that make me bang my head on my desk

Do you have to win though? Can't you leave them to their lunacy? Might be better for the blood pressure.

[Spaceghost]

I had a friend at work who was a born again christian who genuinely believed that the world was only 6,000 (or something) years old, and that dinosaurs and humans had lived at the SAME TIME. When I asked him where all the dinosaurs went he said "They were killed when god flooded the Earth". I asked him why Noah had disobeyed god's command to take '2 of EVERY animal' onto the ark but he didn't have an answer for that.

"OK" I said, "Let's say Noah didn't take them onto the ark for some reason, and that's why there are no dinosaurs anymore.", "Yes", he replied. "In that case", I continued, "what about all the sea dwelling dinosaurs? Surely they would all have survived"

Again, he had no answer for this but his beliefs remained unshaken because it doesn't have to make any kind of sense to him; it is a matter of 'faith' and therefore an absense of logic, evidence or any facts whatsoever is no barrier. In a sense, he won the argument because when you're talking to someone with no powers of reason, you can't win.

See:

seem to be lunatics that make me bang my head on my desk

Do you have to win though? Can't you leave them to their lunacy? Might be better for the blood pressure.

It certainly would. He wasn't a 'lunatic' though. In every other respect he was really nice. An intelligent, amusing lad who loved Star Trek and played drums in a (christian) band. Just a shame he couldn't free his mind.

[M.I.K.]

You know what doesn't make any logical sense whatsoever? Any and all ideas about what was around before the universe turned up.

We will never be free until the world is rid of 'god'.

Immediately thought two things when I read that -"it'd take a hell of a lot more than that" and "people wouldn't be free to believe what they want".