To Flesh or not

[Tu-plang]

It's fine if you don't like 'em, I'm just not sure the argument that 2000AD isn't innovating holds up. If anything, people seem to argue that there are too many stories on the roster, which leads to longer gaps between series of a specific strip while everything else gets its turn.

That is a lack of innovation. Many of the "new" stories on that list upthread are five years old plus. The Order has been spinning on for ten years. If you pick up a prog from five or ten years ago, it feels pretty much the same as this week's.

I could be being disagreeable because I haven't really vibed with the current prog in quite a while, but I don't find the cycling of long serialised stories spun out over many years very rewarding to read. And I don't find that many of them innovative. I want 2022AD to feel fresh, different to 2012AD or 2017AD.

[Funt Solo]

I want 2022AD to feel fresh, different to 2012AD or 2017AD.

I was tempted to place Dredd aside as a given, but let's speak to that as well. This is sort of unfair, though, given that 2022 isn't finished yet. Still ... let's have a gander.


Here's the major beats from 2012:

Judge Dredd: Chaos Day, Trifecta
Absalom [series 2]
Nikolai Dante [the end of the saga]
Grey Area *NEW THRILL*
Strontium Dog [series 2 of Life & Death]
Age of the Wolf II
Flesh [series 2 of the relaunch]
The Zaucer of Zilk *NEW THRILL*
Cadet Anderson [mini-series 3]
Durham Red [final Grant & Ezquerra team-up]
Ichabod Azrael [series 2]
The Red Seas [adventure 13]
Lenny Zero [first & last major series]
Brass Sun *NEW THRILL*
The A.B.C. Warriors [reboot #3, series #1]
The Simping Detective [Trifecta tie-in]
Low Life [Trifecta tie-in]



Here's the major beats from 2017:

Judge Dredd [epic-free, multi-author ramblings]
Kingmaker *NEW THRILL*
The Order [series 3] *NEW SINCE 2012*
Hope... *NEW THRILL*
Kingdom [series 7]
Sinister Dexter [meandering]
Brink [series 2] *NEW SINCE 2012*
Scarlet Traces [series 2 of the modern era]
The Fall of Deadworld [series 2] *NEW SINCE 2012*
Defoe [series 7]
Hunted [spin-off]
Grey Area [6th arc]
Greysuit [series 4]
The Alienist [series 2] *NEW SINCE 2012*
Slaine [SHOUTING]
Indigo Prime [series 4 of the modern era]
Absalom [series 4]


I'm not sure what this tells us - 2012 and 2017 both have 17 thrills apiece - so variety has stayed steady between the two years. 2012 had three new thrills to 2017's two - but there were four that were new *since* 2012 as well. Also, wouldn't we count Hunted as new? And Scarlet Traces as new compared to 2012?

Most interestingly, though - the claim that the prog didn't change much between these two years is weird, because the two years only share three thrills in common: Absalom, Grey Area and Judge Dredd.

It will be interesting to compare 2022, when it's finished, and see what it's provided.

[13school]

I'm definitely not calling for a revival of thrills from the 80s, or even the 00s, and I certainly wouldn't argue that the prog isn't innovating... maybe just that the rate of innovation outside of the Regened issues has slowed a little.

I'm still not sure I understand. Slowed, in comparison to when? In the 'golden age', strips like Rogue Trooper, Strontium Dog, Robo Hunter and Ace Trucking would sit in the prog for runs of anything up to six months at a time. Pat Mills strips (Nemesis, Slaine) tended to rotate into the gaps for shorter runs while the one of the others 'rested', but I don't think you'd find a nine-month run from pretty much any time in the 80s with the variety we've seen just this year.

It's fine if you don't like 'em, I'm just not sure the argument that 2000AD isn't innovating holds up. If anything, people seem to argue that there are too many stories on the roster, which leads to longer gaps between series of a specific strip while everything else gets its turn.

Edit to add: I'm not trying to browbeat you on this... honest! I just have this feeling that sometimes people's affection for the Prog of Yesteryear can cloud their perception of what it was, in comparison to the current incarnation.

I fully understand, though my affection - at least as far as this thread is concerned - is much more for the prog of, say, 2012 than 1982. I haven't been arguing for a return to the 80s, so I'm not sure where that's coming from. Much as I loved the prog growing up, I drifted away in the 90s and returned around 2005: that's the period I think of when I think of what I want today's prog to feel like.

Though now that the 80s door's been opened, I would perhaps argue that while the thrills in the 80s tended to run on and on, each thrill felt somewhat more distinct from each other than today's run. Even the stories within genres were quite distinct - nobody was confusing Rogue Trooper with Strontium Dog, or Ace Trucking and Robo-Hunter, and Slaine was out there being its own thing (as was Halo Jones). So while there wasn't the variety in terms of all-new stories, the stories were definitely varied amongst themselves.

Put another way, the current stories I do like - even spin-offs like Deadworld, or Jaegir - often feel distinct within the prog and from each other, while the ones I don't enjoy often feel similar to each other. Though obviously if I'm not fully engaging with stories I don't enjoy, then I'm not going to be fully aware of the no doubt many ways they're also unique.

I get that tastes have changed: SF violence is out, fantasy is in, and so on. There's always going to be a range of current thrills that don't work for me, and there's enough I do like in the current prog to keep me around.

It's fine if you don't like 'em, I'm just not sure the argument that 2000AD isn't innovating holds up. If anything, people seem to argue that there are too many stories on the roster, which leads to longer gaps between series of a specific strip while everything else gets its turn.

That is a lack of innovation. Many of the "new" stories on that list upthread are five years old plus. The Order has been spinning on for ten years. If you pick up a prog from five or ten years ago, it feels pretty much the same as this week's.

I could be being disagreeable because I haven't really vibed with the current prog in quite a while, but I don't find the cycling of long serialised stories spun out over many years very rewarding to read. And I don't find that many of them innovative. I want 2022AD to feel fresh, different to 2012AD or 2017AD.

This is basically my stance. Possibly my complaint - and I keep coming back to this thread because reading other people's thoughts helps sharpen my own - could be more to do with a lack of innovation and freshness within the stories themselves?

2000AD always looks great but some stories seem to have a drive and energy to the storytelling that others lack. If a number of the stories over a period feel the same in the way that they're told, then different titles and characters don't make all that much of a difference to the overall impression.

To bring my rambling back on topic: one of the things I've always liked about Pat Mills' storytelling is that even at his most aimless or trope-recycling, he seemed to realise there had to be something else going on in a story aside from just the plot. Dafoe wasn't just about killing zombies, it was packed with bizarre but real concepts and contraptions; even Greysuit had some truly bonkers ideas. Good storytelling is important and 2000AD always has that, but a great story offers the reader more than just a competent plot.

[Tu-plang]

Yes, those lists are different, Funt, I'll give you that. But does anyone else think it all feels broadly similar? There aren't any curveballs, or things that shift the tone. Compare 82 to 87 to 92 to 97 and you'll see a prog that's evolving.

I'm with 13school in that I'm not massively nostalgic for the 80s or any particular period, I want it to feel like a product of now, and for the last little while 2000AD's voice has felt disconnected from the contemporary, going down its own little cul-de-sac.

[IndigoPrime]

I think it's horses for courses, to be honest. I'd say even during the 1980s, you could align quite a few 2000 AD strips in tone. And that's always going to be the case. But from that 2012 list, there's plenty of tonal variety. The Red Seas is not Ichabod Aural is not Absalom is not Brass Sun, etc. Similarly, there's a world of difference between the feel and execution of Hope, Brink, Scarlet Traces and Deadworld.

returned around 2005: that's the period I think of when I think of what I want today's prog to feel like.

It'd be interesting to know what particularly appealed about the Prog back then. Maybe it's because you'd left it for a while and returned, and so it felt new, because of the gap in reading? I certainly don't recall it feeling like a massive blast of freshness at the time; and looking at the stories now, many of them are good, but I don't see a wild difference compared to today's line-up, in terms of variety, pacing and the like.

[Colin YNWA]

I think one thing that has changed is the structure of story - and I would say for the better BUT.

So in the 'classic' period you would have long open ended stories that ran week to week. With a path but no clear definition of structure or destination. That's why so many older classics have those rushed ending as its decided they were not longer needed. To a degree that inspired inspiriation as a team would have to decide to spin a strip in direction x or y to keep it going and fresh. Return to Armageddon is the prime example of that. I love the way that story flipped and twisted as it went.

This was mixed with strips like Strontium Dog and Robo Hunter that had variable length stories measured to what that story could offer. GRennie does that really well these days BUT his stories feel much more heading to a destination and the only equlivalent post Dante I can think of (other will prove me wrong I'm sure) is Sinister Dexter.

The common format these days - was also present in the past isthe more structure 8 - 12 book, chapter, phase type tale. these can sustain and run but they always feel like they are heading to a preordained ending. Whether the creaters get us there is another matter. These are predominant these days.

So I guess the structure of stories can feel more homoogenous these days? Does that impact quality. Well for me it improves it as it makes the stories feel... solid and driven. Some of the older one, Blackhawk, Meltdown Man, Rogue spring to mind, while crazy and exciting feel loose and chaotic... which some will prefer of course.

I will say there has always been variations, the one off, the short tales etc I'm talking in general terms.

[13school]

returned around 2005: that's the period I think of when I think of what I want today's prog to feel like.

It'd be interesting to know what particularly appealed about the Prog back then. Maybe it's because you'd left it for a while and returned, and so it felt new, because of the gap in reading? I certainly don't recall it feeling like a massive blast of freshness at the time; and looking at the stories now, many of them are good, but I don't see a wild difference compared to today's line-up, in terms of variety, pacing and the like.

Finally a question that has a definitive answer! I came back because I'd read somewhere that Bill Savage was back, and the idea of an Invasion reboot in the 21st century was so  crazy to me I had to check it out. I'd found a big stash of progs 1-50 in a second hand store as a teen and Invasion had easily been my favourite strip after Dredd. That probably gives you all the ammunition you need to discount my taste, but I stand by my love of Bill.

Long story short, I liked what I saw - but if I'd come back a year or two or more earlier, I may very well have liked it just as much.

I definitely agree with Colin that the structure of 2000ADs stories has changed since the 80s, and for the better. My quibbles with "storytelling" are possibly more to do with pacing within each episode as a stand-alone unit. I prefer to read stories that provide a satisfying chunk of story each issue, which may very well link back to my earlier comment about Mills' writing - his overarching stories might have been a bit meandering at times, but most episodes gave you something memorable to take away each week, even if it was just a nutty concept or memorable bit of violence.

[sheridan]

(And, obviously, very few artists are capable of bashing out five pages a week for months at a time, in the manner of Gibson, Ezquerra and Belardinelli on Robo-Hunter, Strontium Dog and Ace Trucking/Blackhawk/Meltdown Man respectively.)

I have wondered how the artists would cope if they had been producing full colour pages back then.  The Apocalypse War had a break (was it one week or a couple of weeks?) presumably so that the King could catch up.

[IndigoPrime]

That probably gives you all the ammunition you need to discount my taste, but I stand by my love of Bill.

Nah. Half the point of the Prog is that we all like different things. I think it's interesting that a reboot of sorts brought you back to the Prog, but:

Long story short, I liked what I saw - but if I'd come back a year or two or more earlier, I may very well have liked it just as much.

I do imagine that's quite possibly the case. One commonality on the forum appears to be that people see a freshness in the comic whenever they got on board and many eventually get jaded, for a range of reasons.

That said, I think Colin's point about the structure of the comic is spot-on – although it obviously happened way earlier than the mid-2000s. That emphasis shift from episodic storytelling to arc-based collections carved into six-page chunks has altered the nature of the comic. Mostly, I prefer it, but it does need a good writer to ensure something interesting happens every week.

[Magnetica]

So in the 'classic' period you would have long open ended stories that ran week to week. With a path but no clear definition of structure or destination. That's why so many older classics have those rushed ending as its decided they were not longer needed. To a degree that inspired inspiriation as a team would have to decide to spin a strip in direction x or y to keep it going and fresh. Return to Armageddon is the prime example of that. I love the way that story flipped and twisted as it went.

I always thought Return to Armageddon was the one story from back then that felt like a complete story heading towards an endpoint, where as the like of Blackhawk and Meltdown Man were more episodic.

I definitely agree with Colin that the structure of 2000ADs stories has changed since the 80s, and for the better. My quibbles with "storytelling" are possibly more to do with pacing within each episode as a stand-alone unit. I prefer to read stories that provide a satisfying chunk of story each issue, which may very well link back to my earlier comment about Mills' writing - his overarching stories might have been a bit meandering at times, but most episodes gave you something memorable to take away each week, even if it was just a nutty concept or memorable bit of violence.

Well that's the trick isn't it. Easy to say, hard to do. In the current Prog I'd say Dan Abnett comes closest to this. Jaegir is close to that too, but I had to go back and re-read a load of episodes in one go to fully understand it, so it's not quite there.

[Magnetica]

That said, I think Colin's point about the structure of the comic is spot-on – although it obviously happened way earlier than the mid-2000s. That emphasis shift from episodic storytelling to arc-based collections carved into six-page chunks has altered the nature of the comic. Mostly, I prefer it, but it does need a good writer to ensure something interesting happens every week.

Absolutely and it's not just the Prog, TV has gone that way too. Everything seems to season or multiple season long arcs.

I remember Babylon 5 was the first programme I was aware of doing that; now it's completely prevalent regardless of genre. Even things like Strictly Come Dancing....it's not about  who wins each week but who wins at the end.

[broodblik]

The nature of the beast has changed. I prefer an arc must be one storyline and not these endless serializations like we have in the soapies

[Dash Decent]

A question I sometimes ponder is how much my interest in 2000AD is encouraged by the fact it's still a current, ongoing publication.  It doesn't matter how long ago the reprints are from, they are still part of the live, moving stream that is 2000AD.  I wonder if it had got cancelled and was finite, and (after awhile) something of years past, whether I would be as into it and enthused.

[AlexF]

I love how any thread that is notionally about Pat Mills ends up turning into 'state of 2000AD' topic!
Anyway, to Dash Decent's recent point, totally agree. Should 2000AD ever cease I'm sure I'll still love teh collections I have an re-read them from time to time, but the urgency of my own fandom is definitely kept alive by the fact that each new week brings the promise of something new and, perhaps, better than ever before.

I occasionally get a bit bored when there are too many long-running story arcs all at the same time, so knowing what a whole 10-week block might bring, but in fact in the last year or so I feel Tharg has addressed this problem pretty well, with e.g. shorter Dredd tales; SinDex in bursts, running a marathon like Brink alongside sprints like Diaboliks.

[Matty_e]

Pat Mills has just released a final chapter of 'Be Pure, Be Vigilant, Behave' that details where he feels his final 2000ad work is at present including Flesh, Invasion & ABCs.
https://millsverse.gumroad.com/