2000 AD Online Forum

General Chat => Film & TV => : IAMTHESYSTEM 29 July, 2021, 03:16:27 PM

: Jodie Whittaker to leave Doctor Who.
: IAMTHESYSTEM 29 July, 2021, 03:16:27 PM
Jodie Whittaker, the first female Doctor Who, is to leave the series. From the BBC itself, so unlikely to be a rumour.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-57940451
: Re: Jodie Whittaker to leave Doctor Who.
: IndigoPrime 29 July, 2021, 03:22:23 PM
“and Chris Chibnall”

Good. He’s really messed things up, being responsible for imprinting his own legacy on the show in a manner that’s a bit HMMM, giving the first female Doctor precisely no character (I still don’t really know what she stands for), adding too many companions (Why not Yaz+Doctor? Why do we need ANOTHER middle-aged white guy in the TARDIS?), seemingly not really caring about logic and consistency (even within the same episode), and more.

Whittaker was ideal casting. That opportunity has been wasted. I’m sure we can now look forward to a billion articles guessing who the next Doctor will be, before it’s invariably a relatively little known white bloke, and a new show runner who’s not really suited to the show.

Frankly, they should give it a rest for a few years and figure out how to compete with streaming services. (Hint: it’s about scripts and stories — the BBC cannot compete on ‘epic’ and effects. Against the likes of The Expanse, Doctor Who these days looks little better than the cardboard sets of the 1980s. But with great stories and a smaller scale, it could still rock. Well, if they get a decent showrunner.)
: Re: Jodie Whittaker to leave Doctor Who.
: wedgeski 29 July, 2021, 03:45:25 PM
Yeah, that's a shame. She's great in the role, and while I generally enjoyed her and Chibnall's run, the whole enterprise felt a little tired. I've had that feeling all the way back to Capaldi, except his Doctor had the necessary standout stories to make up for it.
: Re: Jodie Whittaker to leave Doctor Who.
: edgeworthy 29 July, 2021, 03:56:38 PM
Ah, my lack of surprise is almost matched by my lack of surprise :|
: Re: Jodie Whittaker to leave Doctor Who.
: Jim_Campbell 29 July, 2021, 04:26:15 PM
So, apparently, we're getting a "trio of specials" in 2022, continuing Chibnall's baffling record of being unable to turn round a 13-episode series in a year… I mean, it's hardly Game of Thrones, is it?

I'll be sorry to see Whitaker go, but I think Chibnall's been a disaster, that one casting choice excepted. The second series was a distinct improvement on the first, but that's not saying a lot. I mean, if you get handed the keys to a flagship BBC show with a huge worldwide fanbase and by the fourth episode you're relying on "giant spiders because something, something, toxic waste" it suggests you're not really trying.

(The most recent New Year special is the first episode of New Who I've skipped since the series came back… I saw the trailer and was just… meh.)
: Re: Jodie Whittaker to leave Doctor Who.
: broodblik 29 July, 2021, 05:00:48 PM
I do not have a problem with Jodie as the Doctor but an actor can only do so good with some poor storytelling and weak plotlines. I also never really "liked" her companions which is part of the problem.
: Re: Jodie Whittaker to leave Doctor Who.
: IndigoPrime 29 July, 2021, 05:08:34 PM
being unable to turn round a 13-episode series in a year…
Mm. Six episodes and three specials, even given COVID is… yeah. But, hey, he gets to string things out through 2022, so it’ll be, what, 2023 or even 2024 before someone else gets a crack at this. And that spiders episode was a big screw-up for other reasons, not least the Doctor arguing you can’t shoot them, whereupon she seals the things in to starve to death and/or eat each other. So much for mercy.
: Re: Jodie Whittaker to leave Doctor Who.
: Leigh S 29 July, 2021, 06:36:35 PM
Curiously it was only a few weeks back I went looking for a podcast or video supporting Dhibnall Era - Like Marshal Law hunting heroes, couldn't find any, but did find Jay Exci's excellent video that sums up my feelings almost perfectly


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8_A7n83Rh0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8_A7n83Rh0)

I do think Chibnall is the natural progression from RTD Era "head in the sand" M**g-M**g shaming. The problems in Chibnall Who are there in Chibnall's ealiest attempts to ape RTD - sodding CyberWoman!

We really need a non fan to take over - the questionis just how deep can Chibnall bury the corpse in the 10 episodes he has? The one bright hope is that the writer of Villa Diodati (sp) is named as a core writer for series 13

: Re: Jodie Whittaker to leave Doctor Who.
: IndigoPrime 29 July, 2021, 08:10:33 PM
Ideally, you want someone who cares about the genre (which Chibnall in the past has been cool on at best), but who won’t fan-wank all over the thing, desperately trying to print their own massive continuity/history-busting revelation on a long-running show.

But ultimately unless they employ an excellent script editor who has actual power *and* understands the very uneven playing field the BBC is now competing in, Doctor Who is already quite probably doomed to failure. Frankly, they’re going to revert back to a male Doctor, so perhaps they should employ a female showrunner. Some people recently were talking about Naomi Alderman (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naomi_Alderman) on Twitter. I’ve no idea if she’d be right for the show, but they need to think outside of the usual circle, because Chibnall was the obvious choice but also a bad one.
: Re: Jodie Whittaker to leave Doctor Who.
: Tiplodocus 29 July, 2021, 09:22:35 PM
Shame! She could have done so much better.  But given the last episode I can remember as being "Great! I'd happily watch that again and again" was HEAVEN SENT some six years ago (and that's about the only Capaldi I remember) then yeah, I won't really miss it if it does take a rest.
: Re: Jodie Whittaker to leave Doctor Who.
: von Boom 30 July, 2021, 12:41:36 AM
Great news. Now they need to eliminate the Timeless Child, unlimited regenerations, and being non Gallifreyian mess.
: Re: Jodie Whittaker to leave Doctor Who.
: IndigoPrime 30 July, 2021, 09:11:53 AM
I suspect Chibnall is going to use his remaining time to indelibly stamp his mark on the series, tying things up in a way that forever changes the show, then leaving with a grin and chucking the entire thing to his successor.

It really feels like the show has fallen into a mistake of creating puzzles. It’s so wrapped up in its own cleverness that the broader arc is largely impenetrable. RTD very cleverly simplified and streamlined everything: time traveller in a box; last of his species; travels around with a human because he likes Earth and he’s lonely; lots of enemies; tried to protect people. Moffat and particularly Chibnall are over complicating a show that doesn’t need that level of complexity; and even if it did, the end result just isn’t that good.

I just hope whoever comes next cares more about the characters than making them chess pieces, understands how to balance gender (two women in the TARDIS, one of which is the Doctor, and yet Graham was the most fully fleshed out character under Chibnall’s run, with the Doctor herself frequently being sidelined and a cypher), and sees the value in tightly written scripts that work within the internal logic of the show (or at least the episode itself). But I fear we’re in for more of the same—assuming we get anything at all after Chibnall leaves.
: Re: Jodie Whittaker to leave Doctor Who.
: Hawkmumbler 30 July, 2021, 10:54:39 AM
Would we want another super fan to take up the head writer mantel or no? Either way, if he was game, Reece Shearsmith gets my vote to step up to the plate.
: Re: Jodie Whittaker to leave Doctor Who.
: wedgeski 30 July, 2021, 10:58:51 AM
Straczynski has even indicated he'd be interested (https://twitter.com/straczynski/status/1420922821438427140), that's how deep the vein runs.
: Re: Jodie Whittaker to leave Doctor Who.
: Mister Pops 30 July, 2021, 11:26:38 AM
Normally, when the news of a new era of Who breaks, it starts me into a cycle of thinking "It will be interesting to see the newest take on the Doctor", then watching a few of the new episodes before thinking "This isn't for me". This has been happening since RTD left, with each iteration taking fewer episodes before I switch off.

This time I can't even get to "This could be interesting" stage.

It really feels like the show has fallen into a mistake of creating puzzles. It’s so wrapped up in its own cleverness that the broader arc is largely impenetrable. RTD very cleverly simplified and streamlined everything: time traveller in a box; last of his species; travels around with a human because he likes Earth and he’s lonely; lots of enemies; tried to protect people. Moffat and particularly Chibnall are over complicating a show that doesn’t need that level of complexity; and even if it did, the end result just isn’t that good.

The best criticism I heard of Who from Moffat's stewardship and beyond was along the lines of; Dr Who used to be a show with an intriguing little story happening somewhere in space and time, with the Doctor getting involved at some point. Now it's a show with an overbloated story about the Doctor, with somewhere in space and time getting involved at some point. And there's a million speeches about how arsom the Doctor is.

The problem with all this mystery box bullshit is that the resolutions are rarely satisfying and sometimes just reveal an even BIGGER mystery box that won't have a satisfying pay off either. I sometimes have felt like the show is being written to generate online speculation and clicks*.

They need to get back to being an anthology show with a quirky recurring character in a phone box whose appearance sometimes changes. So maybe Shearsmith would be good fit, although would he want to? He already has a successful anthology show which doesn't have a rabid fan base scrutinizing everything.

This show is in danger of becoming a poisoned chalice, if it isn't already.

*This was definitely the case with that carcrash, Sherlock
: Re: Jodie Whittaker to leave Doctor Who.
: broodblik 30 July, 2021, 11:30:54 AM
Focus on telling us a story, how difficult can this be?
: Re: Jodie Whittaker to leave Doctor Who.
: IndigoPrime 30 July, 2021, 01:50:55 PM
This was definitely the case with that carcrash, Sherlock
Sherlock was an odd one. I’d argue it started really well, but it at some point vanished up its own arse and never recovered. Another good example of Moffat buying into his own sense of “aren’t I clever?” rather than just telling a good story.
: Re: Jodie Whittaker to leave Doctor Who.
: judgeurko 31 July, 2021, 02:13:12 PM
this will please all the vile scum fans who feel it necessary to respond to all of the bbc doctor who official twitter feed telling them how much they hate the show. Its just a tv ffs! Disgusting people.
: Re: Jodie Whittaker to leave Doctor Who.
: IndigoPrime 31 July, 2021, 02:15:55 PM
Only temporarily. They’ll hate whatever the show does next, despite probably having not actually watched it since 1983. See also: certain anti-2000 AD folks on social media who bang on about how terrible the Prog is, despite clearly having not gone near it in years.
: Re: Jodie Whittaker to leave Doctor Who.
: Jim_Campbell 31 July, 2021, 02:52:06 PM
They’ll hate whatever the show does next

I really, really hope that if they cast a man, they cast a black man. Partly because it's way past time, but mainly because I can't wait to see the contortions the "The Doctor should be a man" crowd go through to try and explain why they're all upset again without admitting to the obvious…
: Re: Jodie Whittaker to leave Doctor Who.
: IndigoPrime 31 July, 2021, 03:09:10 PM
I hope it’ll be a POC of some type, but I suspect we’re going to see a youngish white bloke who’s a relative unknown, and who’ll play the role in a manner that attempts to recall David Tennant. I hope not. I also would very much like to see a female showrunner. That alone could shake things up a lot.
: Re: Jodie Whittaker to leave Doctor Who.
: Daveycandlish 31 July, 2021, 03:47:07 PM
Adrian Lester as the Doc with Phoebe Waller-Bridge as showrunner?
I'd watch that.
: Re: Jodie Whittaker to leave Doctor Who.
: Mister Pops 31 July, 2021, 04:00:36 PM
I wouldn't rule out an older experienced actor as the Doctor this time. My left-field choice would be Alexander Siddig. He has already played a sci-fi doctor. Who better for a companion than Andrew Robinson?
: Re: Jodie Whittaker to leave Doctor Who.
: Hawkmumbler 31 July, 2021, 05:09:05 PM
In spite of Richard E. Grant being well in the money, as the kids say, appearing in a woeful Star Wars film and a half decent episode of an otherwise middling MCU show, the man has to his credit expressed genuine interest in giving his version of the Doctor another shot. In all but the sense of self respect it would be a step backwards for the chaps career but still, i'd love to see him be given a third second shot.
: Re: Jodie Whittaker to leave Doctor Who.
: Funt Solo 31 July, 2021, 05:22:21 PM
New Doctor Who to be bigoted sociopath who hates foreigners (https://newsthump.com/2021/07/30/new-doctor-who-to-be-bigoted-sociopath-who-hates-foreigners-2/)
: Re: Jodie Whittaker to leave Doctor Who.
: SmallBlueThing(Reborn) 31 July, 2021, 06:44:36 PM
At this point, the BBC assurances that the new team will be announced "in due course" is seeming very familiar. Did they get Alan Yentob to give that quote by any chance?

There's nobody being mentioned for prospective 'showrunner'- other than (excuse me, haha) JMS, and I think they were playing hideously safe as a result of panicking when they appointed Chibnall in the first place. Who looked at his previous work and thought he had the chops? It was a lazy hire, and it backfired.

As for the next Doctor. If they cast male, Whittaker will seem like a mistake to be quickly rectified (which, cards on the table, I think she was- ymmv) but they won't want to give that impression. If they cast white, that will be even more problematic. It will be a black or Asian woman. 

Sandra Oh (from Killing Eve and Gray's Anatomy). And she would be *brilliant*.

SBT

 
: Re: Jodie Whittaker to leave Doctor Who.
: Proudhuff 02 August, 2021, 03:16:33 PM
Send for the Ale-Wing Droid...
: Re: Jodie Whittaker to leave Doctor Who.
: Leigh S 02 August, 2021, 04:03:34 PM

Moffatt's First Doctor, then?

New Doctor Who to be bigoted sociopath who hates foreigners (https://newsthump.com/2021/07/30/new-doctor-who-to-be-bigoted-sociopath-who-hates-foreigners-2/)
: Re: Jodie Whittaker to leave Doctor Who.
: IndigoPrime 02 August, 2021, 04:06:03 PM
I don’t think Whittaker was a mistake. What was a mistake was having a showrunner who decided it was more important to make a middle-aged white companion the only character on the show with real depth, and who turned the Doctor into a near bit-player in her own story, with muddled morals (to say the least) and where, after all this time, we still don’t have a solid understanding of her motivations.

Whittaker was never the problem. The showrunner was. As for the next Doctor, there’s no way in hell it will be a BAME woman. I find it vanishingly unlikely it will be a woman. There’s a slim possibility it will be a BAME man, for another first; but I won’t be shocked for them to revert to type.
: Re: Jodie Whittaker to leave Doctor Who.
: The Monarch 02 August, 2021, 07:06:19 PM
I could say many things but nah Indigoprime summed it up pretty well Jodie unfortunatly suffered the colin baker curse. A decent doctor hamstrung by terrible show runners in colins case it was someone who wanted to be elsewhere and in jodies case well its chibnall
: Re: Jodie Whittaker to leave Doctor Who.
: paddykafka 03 August, 2021, 12:32:59 PM
In spite of Richard E. Grant being well in the money, as the kids say, appearing in a woeful Star Wars film and a half decent episode of an otherwise middling MCU show, the man has to his credit expressed genuine interest in giving his version of the Doctor another shot. In all but the sense of self respect it would be a step backwards for the chaps career but still, i'd love to see him be given a third second shot.

Oh yes, that's a good call, Hawkmumbler. I've been a fan of Grant ever since Withnail & I. And as his co-star in that classic movie, Paul McGann, has gone on to play the 8th incarnation of the Doctor, wouldn't it be fun to see both actors team up again? (Except instead of being drunken actors wandering about the countryside, they would be come eccentric doctors wandering about the Universe.  :) )
: Re: Jodie Whittaker to leave Doctor Who.
: Leigh S 03 August, 2021, 12:58:14 PM
The problem with Richard E Grant is he did it in Scream of the Shalka and I found that it was.... erm... disappointing to say the least!
: Re: Jodie Whittaker to leave Doctor Who.
: IndigoPrime 03 August, 2021, 01:35:42 PM
I’d happily see one-off miniseries of some kind include those actors, or McGann rock up in some kind of crossover event. But Richard E. Grant tends to play Richard E. Grant. I don’t want him being the Doctor for the same reason I don’t want Richard Ayoade to take on the role. Also, Grant is 64—far too old for the role*. (Ayoade is arguably too old also, at 44.)

* Capalidi was, what, 55 when he first appeared? And although I like the actor and some of his run (notably the final series), plenty of people said it tanked Doctor Who merch, which is a consideration for the show’s ability to function and exist. Casting a 64 year old now, who wouldn’t be on screen until he is 66 or older seems a good way to kill off the show forever.
: Re: Jodie Whittaker to leave Doctor Who.
: broodblik 03 August, 2021, 01:38:46 PM
Please not Richard E Grant.
: Re: Jodie Whittaker to leave Doctor Who.
: Hawkmumbler 03 August, 2021, 02:03:12 PM
The problem with Richard E Grant is he did it in Scream of the Shalka and I found that it was.... erm... disappointing to say the least!

Scream of the Shalka actually being good is the weird, esoteric hill I always seem to find myself standing on.
: Re: Jodie Whittaker to leave Doctor Who.
: MumboJimbo 03 August, 2021, 02:24:05 PM
I’d like to see Diane Morgan (of Philomena Cunk fame) play the next doctor, in a complete dry, sardonic way without an ounce of sentimentality. She’d be crotchety and barely tolerate her companions, with whom she never travels by choice, but there’s always plot reasons why they’re there. In fact she’d barely be able to remember any of their names. After the emotional rollercoaster of each episode, our hapless companions will think that they’ve finally made some emotional connection to her, only to find the doctor forget to wait for them when she leaves in the Tardis.
: Re: Jodie Whittaker to leave Doctor Who.
: Richard 03 August, 2021, 02:59:37 PM
I love that idea!
: Re: Jodie Whittaker to leave Doctor Who.
: wedgeski 03 August, 2021, 04:17:00 PM
I’d like to see Diane Morgan (of Philomena Cunk fame) play the next doctor
That is a helluva shout. I know her mostly from Motherland and that tired, no-effs-given personality would work perfectly.
: Re: Jodie Whittaker to leave Doctor Who.
: Colin YNWA 03 August, 2021, 04:49:21 PM
Yeah she would be fantastic and I can just imagine the heads exploding now too!
: Re: Jodie Whittaker to leave Doctor Who.
: pauljholden 03 August, 2021, 05:06:54 PM
I’d like to see Diane Morgan (of Philomena Cunk fame) play the next doctor
That is a helluva shout. I know her mostly from Motherland and that tired, no-effs-given personality would work perfectly.

god, you've GOT to watch her in the tv series Mandy - she's like bizarre, human cartoon - like a nihilistic mr bean.

But, I'd hoped that personality was what we were getting with capaldi (his insults to clara, etc) but then it got sentimental/schamltzy (and felt like someone asked capaldi what he liked doing "playing guitar!" "Ok, not sure how it fits, but we'll do that it'll be fab!", so I just dunno how the beeb would hold on to the edge.
: Re: Jodie Whittaker to leave Doctor Who.
: IndigoPrime 03 August, 2021, 05:44:41 PM
That speech at the end of Capaldi’s run was cringeworthy. It went on forever and felt like the antithesis of what is Doctor was all about—although it was off course a Moffat blog post about what he thought the character should be. Awful. I kind of hope Whitakker’s doesn’t do something so overblown. “Bye, then!”
: Re: Jodie Whittaker to leave Doctor Who.
: GordonR 03 August, 2021, 05:54:22 PM
That speech at the end of Capaldi’s run was cringeworthy. It went on forever and felt like the antithesis of what is Doctor was all about—although it was off course a Moffat blog post about what he thought the character should be. Awful. I kind of hope Whitakker’s doesn’t do something so overblown. “Bye, then!”

The speechifying definitely got more blatant, self-indulgent and pompous as the Moffat era went on.
: Re: Jodie Whittaker to leave Doctor Who.
: pauljholden 03 August, 2021, 06:10:02 PM
That speech at the end of Capaldi’s run was cringeworthy. It went on forever and felt like the antithesis of what is Doctor was all about—although it was off course a Moffat blog post about what he thought the character should be. Awful. I kind of hope Whitakker’s doesn’t do something so overblown. “Bye, then!”

Sometimes Doctor Who becomes terribly self-indulgant and actorly and is usually more awful for it.

I suspect it's a show that the cast and crew feels it can lend itself to "luvviness" and so we end up with stuff like that.
: Re: Jodie Whittaker to leave Doctor Who.
: abelardsnazz 03 August, 2021, 07:54:51 PM
Please not Richard E Grant.

Richard E Grant played the Great Intelligence, not that previous roles stopped Colin Baker or Peter Capaldi. If I could choose a Richard for the role though, I'd go for Richard Ayoade, he'd bring an appropriate level of sarcasm and not too many histrionics. And Mark Gatiss as showrunner - a superfan, regrettably Moffat didn't share his enthusiasm for bringing the Ice Warriors back, but this is a duo I would definitely tune in for.
: Re: Jodie Whittaker to leave Doctor Who.
: Jim_Campbell 03 August, 2021, 08:01:14 PM
And Mark Gatiss as showrunner

Gatiss at least understands the importance of an undercurrent of horror in a 'kids' show — kids like to have the piss scared out of them.
: Re: Jodie Whittaker to leave Doctor Who.
: IndigoPrime 03 August, 2021, 08:32:06 PM
Ayoade is too old. Moreover, he always plays the character of Richard Ayoade, whether he’s in a sit-com, doing an interview or is on a panel show. We wouldn’t get Doctor Who—we’d get Richard Ayoade.

As for Gatiss, his scripts for the show have been variable, and given his work on Sherlock I’d fear he’d do a Moffat and just try to be too clever. He’d be a lazy hire, and so is probably likely to get it, judging by the BBC’s track record.
: Re: Jodie Whittaker to leave Doctor Who.
: abelardsnazz 03 August, 2021, 10:23:00 PM
Ayoade is too old. Moreover, he always plays the character of Richard Ayoade, whether he’s in a sit-com, doing an interview or is on a panel show. We wouldn’t get Doctor Who—we’d get Richard Ayoade.

As for Gatiss, his scripts for the show have been variable, and given his work on Sherlock I’d fear he’d do a Moffat and just try to be too clever. He’d be a lazy hire, and so is probably likely to get it, judging by the BBC’s track record.

Ayoade too old? He's stlll younger than Capaldi was when he got the role. I'm a fan of Gatiss, not least for The League of Gentlemen, and think he could do something with the show. I think the writers shouldn't be too afraid to take it into scary territory, as Jim said, avoiding all the convolution that Moffat seemed to think was necessary. Maybe it'll never be as good as my memories of The Robots of Death, but one can but hope.
: Re: Jodie Whittaker to leave Doctor Who.
: abelardsnazz 03 August, 2021, 10:57:33 PM
And maybe, unlike our beloved Tooth, creators have diverted DW in so many directions since its inception. Dredd has always had the guiding hand of Wagner for 40+ years, Mills has remained in control of his universe. Other characters have taken different directions, but there's a definite consistency under Mr Smith's Thargship.

I quite liked Chibnall's upending of the Doctor's origins, it gives a big sandbox to play in. But could that all be reversed a la The Time War? 
: Re: Jodie Whittaker to leave Doctor Who.
: IndigoPrime 03 August, 2021, 11:02:11 PM
I would say, yes, 44 is too old. Plus he’d be 46 by the time the first next series episode aired. Capaldi was too old too, hence merch sales tanking.
: Re: Jodie Whittaker to leave Doctor Who.
: Mister Pops 04 August, 2021, 12:26:12 AM
I would say, yes, 44 is too old. Plus he’d be 46 by the time the first next series episode aired. Capaldi was too old too, hence merch sales tanking.

Diane Morgan is 45. Would you say say she would be a bad choice because she's too old? I would argue that the merch sales suffered more from the quality of the show/scripts than the age of the lead actor.
: Re: Jodie Whittaker to leave Doctor Who.
: Goosegash 04 August, 2021, 01:15:08 PM
That speech at the end of Capaldi’s run was cringeworthy. It went on forever and felt like the antithesis of what is Doctor was all about—although it was off course a Moffat blog post about what he thought the character should be. Awful. I kind of hope Whitakker’s doesn’t do something so overblown. “Bye, then!”

Not sure if you're talking about the speech from The Doctor Falls when he's trying to persuade Missy and The Master to fight with him, or the regeneration speech from Twice Upon A Time?

If it's former I heartily disagree, but if it's the latter, then okay, maybe.

Arguably TUAT should never have happened anyway, it was only made as there was an Xmas Special gap that needed to be filled and Moffat didn't want to be the one to end that tradition (which Chibnall then did anyway by having it be a New Year's Day special instead). But really, it only serves to weaken the impact of the Doctor's sacrifice at the end of TDF, which IMO was the perfect ending for Capaldi's Doctor, with the perfect last words - "Pity, no stars...I thought there'd be stars..."
: Re: Jodie Whittaker to leave Doctor Who.
: Goosegash 04 August, 2021, 01:22:06 PM
I quite liked Chibnall's upending of the Doctor's origins, it gives a big sandbox to play in. But could that all be reversed a la The Time War?

It will end up being undone somehow. No showrunner will ever really be able to address it, because it completely breaks the show, and I can't imagine any future writers will want to work around such a massive elephant in the room.

I'll say this: for all the ups and downs of the Moffat era, and there were quite a few downs, at no point did I ever think, "Hmm, might stop watching this now." I didn't last two seasons into the Chibnall era before calling it a day.

The thing about Dr Who in the past was that there was a sense that even if you weren't enjoying a particular episode, you'd know a new one was coming along that could be better. I've completely lost that sense from the programme now. The whole ethos behind this era of the show feels so flawed and executed so poorly that I just can't relate to it as the same show anymore.

I don't think anything in a previous episode has been as offensive to me as the apologia for corporate malfeasance in "Kerblam!". That is fundamentally not the Doctor to me, the idea that the any version of the character would take the side of a vast corporate entity over the lives of the human beings in it's employ.

The series has almost without fail taken the side of the weak against the bullies, time and time again. It's just a given that the Doctor will stick up for the underdogs over the oppressors. How could they get Dr Who so wrong?
: Re: Jodie Whittaker to leave Doctor Who.
: IndigoPrime 04 August, 2021, 01:36:40 PM
Part of the issue is Chibnall just not developing the Doctor. Who is she? What does she stand for? It seems to be fluid, to serve the needs of whatever half-finished script has been shoved into production. She has catharses but no depth. For all the flaws of every previous incarnation, at least you knew what they stood for. Then again, they were all men, and so Chibnall was probably confused and thus had to spend whatever time he had on character development fleshing out Graham and relatively ignoring everyone else.

Goosegash: Yes, I’m talking about the overblown 7-hour-long thing right at the end of Capaldi’s run, which was so overblown and pompous that it was presumably responsible for five million eyeballs rolling down the street.

As for the new origins bollocks, that surely needs to be unraveled. Mind you, a smart showrunner could deftly deal with that, if they chose do, positioning it as a lie. Or they could just ignore and never speak of it again—or just reference it in passing. In terms of status quo reset, the one thing that would be a pity to remove would be Jo Martin’s Doctor. But then a smart scriptwriter could presumably deal with that too.
: Re: Jodie Whittaker to leave Doctor Who.
: wedgeski 04 August, 2021, 01:48:13 PM
As for the new origins bollocks, that surely needs to be unraveled. Mind you, a smart showrunner could deftly deal with that, if they chose do, positioning it as a lie. Or they could just ignore and never speak of it again—or just reference it in passing. In terms of status quo reset, the one thing that would be a pity to remove would be Jo Martin’s Doctor. But then a smart scriptwriter could presumably deal with that too.
We need to entertain the possibility that Chibnall knows *exactly* where this story is going and will himself unravel it in the time remaining.
: Re: Jodie Whittaker to leave Doctor Who.
: IndigoPrime 04 August, 2021, 02:00:52 PM
Perhaps. Feels more like a showrunner making his mark than a feint. If it’s the latter, fair enough. Even then, he’ll have to play the Jo Martin situation very carefully, given that he’s stated multiple times that she is The Doctor. Hand-waving away the first POC to have the role with some timey-wimey piece of half-baked scripting would not be a good thing.
: Re: Jodie Whittaker to leave Doctor Who.
: von Boom 04 August, 2021, 02:10:17 PM
As for the new origins bollocks, that surely needs to be unraveled. Mind you, a smart showrunner could deftly deal with that, if they chose do, positioning it as a lie. Or they could just ignore and never speak of it again—or just reference it in passing. In terms of status quo reset, the one thing that would be a pity to remove would be Jo Martin’s Doctor. But then a smart scriptwriter could presumably deal with that too.
We need to entertain the possibility that Chibnall knows *exactly* where this story is going and will himself unravel it in the time remaining.
It's easily undone. At the end of Whittaker's run bring Capaldi back for a short scene where he is found in the shower and immediately regenerates.
: Re: Jodie Whittaker to leave Doctor Who.
: broodblik 04 August, 2021, 02:12:55 PM
It's easily undone. At the end of Whittaker's run bring Capaldi back for a short scene where he is found in the shower and immediately regenerates.

Nope, not a good choice. He never worked as the Doctor
: Re: Jodie Whittaker to leave Doctor Who.
: wedgeski 04 August, 2021, 02:13:41 PM
Perhaps. Feels more like a showrunner making his mark than a feint. If it’s the latter, fair enough. Even then, he’ll have to play the Jo Martin situation very carefully, given that he’s stated multiple times that she is The Doctor. Hand-waving away the first POC to have the role with some timey-wimey piece of half-baked scripting would not be a good thing.
I agree. There's plenty of form from other shows in the last few years to suggest that they have no idea where they're going, but we have a series and three specials to come from this team, and that's a lot of scripts to go into without a plan.
: Re: Jodie Whittaker to leave Doctor Who.
: SmallBlueThing(Reborn) 04 August, 2021, 02:27:25 PM
Capaldi is my favourite of the new Doctors- even my loathing of Moffat's scripting ability couldn't stop him shining through, and he makes otherwise appalling episodes watchable. The ratings slide (which various interested parties are happy to acknowledge when it suits them... like when lobbying for younger, sexier Doctors and making out Capaldi had a negative effect on merch... when in reality, merch sales tanked with Smith... while at the same time denying vehemently and claiming "TV is different now", high profile American fan writers  and BBC Enterprises I'm looking at you both) could be seen as just the natural audience fatigue with a long-running show with minimal internal continuity of narrative, and a response to the BBC's singular failure to put out a regular series, at regular times, to a regular schedule, since Moffat took over.

It certainly needs a rethink, and a commitment to make x number of episodes, every year. Those days when RTD was overseeing 14x Who, 13x Torchwood, 13x Confidential (not to mention the Sarah Jane Adventures) every year seem very long ago.

SBT
: Re: Jodie Whittaker to leave Doctor Who.
: broodblik 04 August, 2021, 02:35:17 PM
Maybe it is time to sunset the series and wait a few years and allowing someone to come up with a better "idea"
: Re: Jodie Whittaker to leave Doctor Who.
: Jim_Campbell 04 August, 2021, 02:37:07 PM
Capaldi is my favourite of the new Doctors

Possibly mine, too. I liked the spiky, somewhat alien Doctor of his first series, but loathed the Cool Dad/Uncle iteration in his second, and really enjoyed the professorial turn in his third, with the Doc/Bill/Nardole dynamic working surprisingly well.
: Re: Jodie Whittaker to leave Doctor Who.
: Hawkmumbler 04 August, 2021, 02:43:55 PM
I liked P.Caps finale speech, but then 2017 had in general been an all time low for me so maybe I just really responded to one of my favourite living actors effectively telling a future him that everything will be alright and change, no matter how painful or unwelcome, is always good.
: Re: Jodie Whittaker to leave Doctor Who.
: Tjm86 04 August, 2021, 02:47:58 PM
... that's a lot of scripts to go into without a plan.

You have been paying attention to the competence of the present government, haven't you?   :o
: Re: Jodie Whittaker to leave Doctor Who.
: IndigoPrime 04 August, 2021, 02:51:33 PM
FWIW, I personally liked Capaldi a lot, bar the middle bit Jim noted. His aloof, alien first series was interesting, and his last was the best of Moffat’s run. On merchandising, I have no insider knowledge, but have heard from multiple parties that things went very wrong during that area, and it was in part due to kids not being thrilled about toys of an old bloke. That said, the BBC’s inability to get the show out for a run every year doesn’t help—and, frankly, baffles me.

Even shorter series would work. Eight episodes and a festive special, like clockwork, would be fine if the individual episodes were all bloody good. Keep them standalone and focused and thread a light arc through them. Perhaps two-part the finale.

I liked P.Caps finale speech, but then 2017 had in general been an all time low for me so maybe I just really responded to one of my favourite living actors effectively telling a future him that everything will be alright and change, no matter how painful or unwelcome, is always good.
For what it’s worth, I wasn’t against the general sentiment of the speech, just that it went on far, far too long.
: Re: Jodie Whittaker to leave Doctor Who.
: Jim_Campbell 04 August, 2021, 06:39:37 PM
On merchandising, I have no insider knowledge, but have heard from multiple parties that things went very wrong.

TBH, you only have to look at the radical contraction in the Dr Who comics being published during the Capaldi era to see this in action. It’s said because, again, I liked Capaldi a lot, but there you go…
: Re: Jodie Whittaker to leave Doctor Who.
: Jim_Campbell 04 August, 2021, 06:48:17 PM
It’s said SAD because, again, I liked Capaldi a lot, but there you go…

Gah. Too slow to edit the typo.