Is it number of episodes? Most people want to include Robot Wars (8), so then you also have to let in Destiny's Angels, which feels less epic.
Robot Wars is 41pp long (actually, it's forty and one half), so perhaps we should go by page count - and Destiny's Angels trumps that at 66pp. Cry of the Werewolf is 48pp and The Graveyard Shift crosses the line at 45pp. We can add in Dredd Angel, Death Aid, then, when the Meg starts up, the page count is often higher per episode, so in comes Midnite's Children (48pp over 5 parts) and America.
Or, does an epic need an epic narrative? A city-wide effect of some kind? Or Dredd teaming up to solve the case?
What makes an epic?
In my opinion, it's either a really long Dredd story or a series of stories that connect to each other, that impacts upon either Mega-City One (Politically or more than like, threatens the City and its inhabitants on a physically destructive level) and/or Judge Dredd (Mentally, emotionally or spiritually) that would likely have far reaching repercussions in future storyline(s) that other writers would likely expand upon in their own stories about Dredd and/or the City.
Number of episodes do count and as Batman said stories that has a connection with each other. A good example of the connected stories where the Every empire Falls storyline by Mike Carroll. Number of episodes is more difficult because I still feel stories like Destiny's Angel and Cry of the Werewolf can be included in the epic range. Anything touching 7 episodes or more gets my count in the epic range. Chaos Day and Tour of Duty like stories is for mega-epics, anything above 12 episodes is your megas.
The above I am saying in the context of the weekly manor of the stories. The stories are always written to contain as much as possible in its 6 pages. I have read a DC maxi-series which the prog would have done in 2-3 weekly episodes.
Engaging.
Powerful.
Inventive.
Consequential.
Its funny in my head there's a clear defined list - though for the life of me I can't begin to think what that comes from - maybe its when something was announced as a Mega-Epic in the Nerve Centre. Up to a point it was the stories collected in seperate named volmes by Titan - with The Robot Wars as the accepted (???) precursor so as I've said elsewhere in my head cannon its
QuoteNow I know the actual list of Dredd Epics is just; Robot Wars; The Cursed Earth; The Day the Law Died; Judge Child; Apocalypse War; City of the Damned; Oz; Necropolis; Judgement Day; Purgatory / Inferno; Wilderlands; The Pit; Doomsday; Origins, Tour of Duty and Day of Chaos. The rest are just long Dredd stories.
But there's no rythm and reason for that so the simple anwser is it doesn't matter and we work with what we decide for ourselves I guess. It was stories over 20 part (and The Robot War as the first long form and City of the Damned which was planned to be more than 20 parts, which we all know.... errrr... cos.).
I really admire AlexF (and Broodblik lest we forget) for just placing a proper definition on it and sticking with that... except The Robot Wars, we all makes exception for The Robot Wars!
I don't think length matters (ahem) that much. For evidence I present - The Return of Rico.
Epic in every sense, I think, especially consequentially.
I mean, there have been superduper hyperparted mega epics I struggle to remember at all but TRoR? That one with Morphy? Can't forget those.
Perhaps epic should just mean the cream - especially in such a long, continuous narrative. Or maybe any story, no matter the length, that is a significant* part of the overall narrative is epic.
*wiggle room :)
Weird; never really thought about it before. The dictionary definition*, as a noun at least, seems to insist on length. Never really thought of, say, Mandroid as a Dredd epic, great as it was; not sure why though - maybe the lack of huge and consequential events.
*As in, I just typed 'epic definition' into Google.
1 - it has to be in the prog. Dredd in the Meg can be very decompressed so that would affect page count as a metric
2 - it has to be a concrete event - big or small - not an on-going narrative feature. An epic COULD be the conclusion to an on-going narrative thread but it should be distinctly so rather than just 'here's where that story ends'
This is the definition I've always had in my mind. The current tourney may well provoke a re-evaluation of this, but for what it's worth, this is now I've always viewed it.
I've always based it on length: to be counted it had to have at least 18 episodes. And they need to be consecutive* not split into "books".
Subject matter doesn't come into it. It doesn't have to be Mega City in peril. It could be Dredd going to the laundry, losing his small and looking for them for 18 weeks.
* short interludes, typically to allow the artist more time are allowed.
I can remember a time when the list of Dredd epics basically comprised:
The Cursed Earth
The Day the Law Died!
The Judge Child
The Apocalypse War
City of the Damned
Oz
Necropolis
But two things happened to undermine that definition. First, the Megazine came along on a monthly basis, so the idea of an epic as something that ran for months was less workable (no one really thought of Raptaur as an epic when it first ran). Second, epics stopped being one off stories and more a set of related stories unfolding over time. Necropolis - with six months of build up before it actually started - pointed the way towards this. But the Mechanismo saga running over multiple storylines in both 2000AD and the Megazine over two years was a new way of doing things and made epic-aping stories like Judgement Day and Inferno look a bit quaint.
Quote from: The Corinthian on 07 March, 2021, 09:45:59 AM
epics stopped being one off stories and more a set of related stories unfolding over time.
Sorry, have you actually
read the Cursed Earth Saga or the Judge child Quest?
yeah, except for the apocalypse war - and mirroring sci fi tv shows of the time - early 'epics' were thoroughly enjoyable as isolated chapters but often curiously unsatisfying when read as a whole, being for the most part collections of 26 short stories linked by a simple thematic undercurrent (eg find a missing boy, cross a stretch of irradiated land).
then, this century, wagner started crafting genuine epics, again mirroring tv tastes, as a huge cast of protagonists played out any number of superior soap approaches, plots and subplots layered and developed over years, complex characters coming and going and CHANGING, epic storylines properly bleeding into each other, actual sophisticated development.
as wagner gradually stepped back, and a slew of new writers came in and developed their own epics and shorter stories, things have become a little frustrating again - the strip often reads as a series of spin off shows, seemingly (but not actually) outside official wagner continuity, each writer's stories and arcs apparently having little to do with every other writer's take. the inevitable consequence of this is a loss of that development, consequence and consistency. The answer would probably be to have an annual writers' room summit of the dredd writers (marvel and dc style) to loosely plot out a year's storylines.
Quote from: The Mind of Wolfie Smith on 07 March, 2021, 10:48:27 AM
as wagner gradually stepped back, and a slew of new writers came in and developed their own epics and shorter stories, things have become a little frustrating again - the strip often reads as a series of spin off shows, seemingly (but not actually) outside official wagner continuity, each writer's stories and arcs apparently having little to do with every other writer's take. the inevitable consequence of this is a loss of that development, consequence and consistency. The answer would probably be to have an annual writers' room summit of the dredd writers (marvel and dc style) to loosely plot out a year's storylines.
I agree with this - writers such as Michael Carroll and Rob Williams have had some great ideas in their long-form Dredds, but the consequences of these seem to be lost until these writers come back to the strip.
Another question - could a long-term character's storyline such as PJ Maybe be said to be an epic - I know PJ appeared in Tour of Duty and Day of Chaos, but could all his shorter stories over the years be said to be an epic in their own right?
Talking about PJ I would love a complete collection of his misadventures.
Quote from: Tjm86 on 07 March, 2021, 10:19:44 AM
Quote from: The Corinthian on 07 March, 2021, 09:45:59 AM
epics stopped being one off stories and more a set of related stories unfolding over time.
Sorry, have you actually read the Cursed Earth Saga or the Judge child Quest?
You've misundertood me. These are both one-off stories in the sense that the narrative starts on page 1 of part 1. There are no foreshadowing stories about the plague in Mega-City Two before Prog 61. There weren't any stories about Judge Feyy or PSI Division's prophecies running through 1979's Progs - we didn't even know there was a PSI Division until 6 weeks earlier.
Now compare to Wilderlands which is obviously pitched as a full on epic but is also the culmination of a storyline that appeared in four separate stories in both 2000AD and the Megazine over two years, and was preceded by a set-up storyline in the Megazine to get us to exactly the point where Wilderlands proper starts.
Quote from: broodblik on 07 March, 2021, 11:15:50 AM
Talking about PJ I would love a complete collection of his misadventures.
The Rebellion paperback is going for hugely elevated prices, but is available digitally from the 2000AD shop, and the Hachette version just came up on Amazon at a reasonable price.
Quote from: The Corinthian on 07 March, 2021, 11:19:19 AM
You've misundertood me. These are both one-off stories in the sense that the narrative starts on page 1 of part 1. There are no foreshadowing stories about the plague in Mega-City Two before Prog 61. There weren't any stories about Judge Feyy or PSI Division's prophecies running through 1979's Progs - we didn't even know there was a PSI Division until 6 weeks earlier.
I think we must have different ideas about a 'one-off story' is. I would argue that the Apocalypse War or City of the Damned would fit together as such whereas CES or JCQ are, as with the Lunar City stories, a series of interconnected stories within a specific context. Or at least they are to me.
I get that we are arguing about what defines an 'epic' here for sure. Ultimately a lot of these have come to be viewed as such more as a result of their overarching context than any specific structure per-se, it seems.
Perhaps the more appropriate question should be "who" defines a Dredd epic?
This is how I see it:
1 part story one shot
2 to 4 part story multi-part
5 to 6 parts mini-series
7 to 11 parts maxi-series
12 to 20 parts epic
Above 21 parts mega-epic
Well you do get the epics and mega-epics that rather consist out of multiple-parts rather than one big continuous storyline.
Quote from: Tjm86 on 07 March, 2021, 11:48:51 AM
Quote from: The Corinthian on 07 March, 2021, 11:19:19 AM
I think we must have different ideas about a 'one-off story' is. I would argue that the Apocalypse War or City of the Damned would fit together as such whereas CES or JCQ are, as with the Lunar City stories, a series of interconnected stories within a specific context. Or at least they are to me.
No one would deny that The Cursed Earth or The Judge Child are very episodic, but even the most tangential part is still presented as an episode of a big overarching story with the title and chapter number on every part. Whereas Lunar 1 is a series of mostly unrelated episodes in a single venue with no suggestion of an overarching story.
(AIUI Lunar 1 happened because Wagner had got bored of doing "cop stories in the future" and tried to refit Dredd as "western stories on the moon", whereas for all its meandering The Cursed Earth has a definite beginning, middle and end.)
I'm on board with Broodblik's breakdown by episode count, and I think 21 episodes or longer is a reasonable place to define the Mega-Epic. Which, as Colin points out, is listed pretty firmly as just:
Robot Wars; The Cursed Earth; The Day the Law Died; Judge Child; Apocalypse War; City of the Damned; Oz; Necropolis; Judgement Day; Purgatory / Inferno; Wilderlands; The Pit; Doomsday; Origins, Tour of Duty and Day of Chaos
(and yes, Robot Wars IS this weird exception - and I'd be sorely tempted to add End of Days and maybe Every Empire Falls and Titan/Enceladus).
I think length absolutely has to be part of what makes an epic, EPIC. Just ask Gilgamesh or Odysseus, and don't even get me started on those pesky Pandavas and Kauravas. It's not just about the number of episodes, it's also about the story slowly unfolding over weeks and months (although of course those add up to the same thing).
I think there's also a lot to be said for 'it's an epic if Tharg tells you there's an new Dredd epic coming' and bangs on about it a lot. Which is why Inferno definintely counts, but arguably Mandroid doesn't (although I'm pretty sure Tharg did suggest that was an exciting and major new storyline - but I doubt he used the phrase 'Mega Epic'.)
Let's be clear, when I chose my list I deliberately set rules that allowed me to include a bunch of long Dredds that people don't consider to be true epics so I'd have some surprises on the blog! It did end up feeling weird to include the likes of Raptaur and Die Laughing, but not to include Goodnight Kiss or the Graveyard Shift. Rules control the fun!
Quote from: AlexF on 08 March, 2021, 11:48:07 AM
I think there's also a lot to be said for 'it's an epic if Tharg tells you there's an new Dredd epic coming' and bangs on about it a lot.
This is definitely a thing as far as I am concerned; back in the day you knew if the current story was an epic. The best example for me is Prog 156: " A Great New Judge Dredd Epic Start Inside".
Obviously that doesn't always work; with Trifecta it would have ruined it.
In my comments, when I say "I don't consider that to be an epic", a lot of it is to do with this.
I can add something to the list for any story to be treated as an epic it must have profound effect on either the Judges or the City. If we look at something like "Mandroid" both these series ran for 12 episodes. I do not see these as epics although they were great Dredd stories, they do not fulfil the above criteria. This type of stories we can bundle under maxi-series the folder.
Oooh, but just to be annoying, you could suggest that The Cursed Earth and The Judge Child have very little impact on either the Judges (as a whole) and certainly not on the city. The Judge Child in particular ends up as one of those shaggy dog stories where Dredd could've avoided a load of unpleasantness (and expense, as pointed out in the epilogue) if he'd just stayed at home...
Quote from: AlexF on 09 March, 2021, 09:23:19 AM
The Judge Child in particular ends up as one of those shaggy dog stories where Dredd could've avoided a load of unpleasantness (and expense, as pointed out in the epilogue) if he'd just stayed at home...
Ah, but if he had just left Krysler in the hands of the Angels, he'd never have known the boy was evil. Who knows how the events of Feyy's prophecy would have played out had an adult Judge Child arrived back, possibly in psychic control of the Angels, and welcomed as a putative saviour. At least in Destiny's Angels and at the end of City of the Damned they knew where to find and stop Krysler/the Mutant
I guess that for Dredd epic, the scope has to be big enough, in addition to being multi-part arc, like Oz or Origins. Day the Law Died is epic to me, nevertheless. Or Cursed Earth. I guess the feeling must be such that is akin to watching Lawrence of Arabia or watching any big budgeted historical movie. Also, for Dredd epic, it has to have quite of an impact on subsequent stories.
To paraphrase some guy, I couldn't define exactly what constitutes a Dredd mega epic, but I know a one when I see one. Loosely, it would generally have to be something that ran in the prog rather than the Megazine and usually something that ran for 20 episodes or more - the sweet spot being 25/26 episodes (though there are clearly some exceptions to these definitions).
For my money the definitive Dredd mega epics are:
The Cursed Earth
The Day the Law Died/Judge Cal saga
The Judge Child Quest*
Block Mania/The Apocalypse War
Oz
Necropolis
Judgement Day
Mechanismo/Wilderlands
The Pit
The Hunting Party
The Doomsday Scenario
Total War
Origins
Tour Of Duty
Day of Chaos
*I would count City of the Damned as a follow up to/continuation of the Judge Child storyline as it isn't really substantial enough to constitute as an epic in its own right.
A 10-12 parter like Sin City would count as a 'mini epic', and while America is an iconic Dredd series, it's not an epic. but that's a whole different kettle of fish.
Interesting to hear folks' take on this - and I'd clumsily congealed the idea of an epic and a mega-epic together in my mind when I posed the question, so it's been an education.
The Grindstone Cowboys arc (what do other people call this?) feels epic - it comes in at twenty-two episodes, so a little shy of the magic 26 some people are considering - but the city gets taken over, it spans the globe and it involves a team required to take down the threat. It feelsepic.
Just in case I'm not being clear, I'm talking about the prog/meg crossover by Michael Carroll from 2016:
The Grindstone Cowboys 1973-1977
Dust to Dust M371-M373
The Lion's Den 1978-1985
Reclamation 1978-1985
From the Ashes M374
Quote from: Funt Solo on 09 March, 2021, 08:53:54 PM
The Grindstone Cowboys arc (what do other people call this?)...
Collected in trade as
Every Empire Falls.
The Robot Wars is too short to be called an "epic," it's just a normal-length story, and there's no reason to include it just because it happens to be the first multi-episode story.
Counting only stories with at least 20 episodes gets you a respectable list.
Not End of Days
Not an epic then.
Quote from: broodblik on 07 March, 2021, 12:40:22 PM
This is how I see it:
1 part story one shot
2 to 4 part story multi-part
5 to 6 parts mini-series
7 to 11 parts maxi-series
12 to 20 parts epic
Above 21 parts mega-epic
I like this. No ambiguity.
Quote from: norton canes on 10 March, 2021, 03:55:48 PM
Quote from: broodblik on 07 March, 2021, 12:40:22 PM
This is how I see it:
1 part story one shot
2 to 4 part story multi-part
5 to 6 parts mini-series
7 to 11 parts maxi-series
12 to 20 parts epic
Above 21 parts mega-epic
I like this. No ambiguity.
I second this, an easy way to
judge if a story is an epic or not. A simple classification tool. Where do I sign?
If we're going to go all taxonomic on it I would add there needs to be more than just one artist over its run:
{artists}⊂{parts} > 1, ∀ {parts} > 20
Quote from: Mister Pops on 10 March, 2021, 05:13:23 PM
If we're going to go all taxonomic on it I would add there needs to be more than just one artist over its run:
{artists}⊂{parts} > 1, ∀ {parts} > 20
Necropolis? All Ezquerra. Epic!
Quote from: Rogue Judge on 10 March, 2021, 05:17:35 PM
Quote from: Mister Pops on 10 March, 2021, 05:13:23 PM
If we're going to go all taxonomic on it I would add there needs to be more than just one artist over its run:
{artists}⊂{parts} > 1, ∀ {parts} > 20
Necropolis? All Ezquerra. Epic!
Good point, I will refine it so:
∃{God}=Esquerra ∴ {artist}⊄{God}|{artists}⊂{parts} > 1, ∀ {parts} > 20
That formula is pure wizardry! Nailed it.
Formula is supoib, but Shirley Apocalypse War, Necropolis and Origins get around the single artist thing anyway by having integrated prologue sections (Block Mania, (Tale of) the Dead Man, The Message)?