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Author Topic: Dredd: The Citadel  (Read 1565 times)

Adamskilad

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Re: Dredd: The Citadel
« Reply #15 on: 27 April, 2022, 12:50:00 PM »
There's a couple of panels missing from the end of the story. Chopra walks into the next room where Dredd is standing with arms crossed.

"He buy it?" asks Dredd.

"He bought it, comrade," replies Chopra.

Funt Solo

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Re: Dredd: The Citadel
« Reply #16 on: 27 April, 2022, 05:42:37 PM »
One of the issues I'm struggling with, in terms of accepting The Citadel as being set during The Apocalypse War, is that the design aesthetic doesn't match up. The Sovs are using a bunch of equipment we never saw during the original depiction, so it seems like a visual reboot.
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Richard

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Re: Dredd: The Citadel
« Reply #17 on: 27 April, 2022, 05:45:24 PM »
Artistic licence. Dredd doesn't really wear a new uniform in every story, it's just different artists' depictions of the same hardware.

Jim_Campbell

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Re: Dredd: The Citadel
« Reply #18 on: 27 April, 2022, 07:50:36 PM »
Artistic licence. Dredd doesn't really wear a new uniform in every story, it's just different artists' depictions of the same hardware.

Dredd: Stomm, is it Brendan McCarthy week again already…? Have I really gotta wear this gruddamn helmet? It looks like a drokking wok!
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Funt Solo

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Re: Dredd: The Citadel
« Reply #19 on: 27 April, 2022, 09:30:32 PM »
Helmet's encased by bumpy lines again! Reporting another case of acute Ezquerra to med-div!
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Re: Dredd: The Citadel
« Reply #20 on: 27 April, 2022, 10:17:55 PM »
Upon reading this story I was hit by several aspects that confronted me. Winterton's version was told in a plausible way throughout this story. Everything he told the priest could have happened as he stated. Even as a long time reader of 2000AD it has been canon that Dredd can be hard hearted especially in times of crises. However the murder of his clone was a red flag to me. This was completely out of character for me given the motive of trying to silence someone who was going to report him or simply because he didn't like him. Then Winterton goes off the rails and attacks the priest, bringing into question his veracity as a witness by demonstrating insanity.
Then we have Chopra's testimony of the event. Dredd killed his clone because he surmised that the Sovs had cloned him and were wanting their Dredd to infiltrate the Mega city one forces. They had planted him already within the Citadel to gain information from the captive judges there and now saw their chance to have an agent within the higher command structure. Dredd's reasoning was sound and again everything he said was plausible. The reasons he stated for suspecting his clone made sense but crucially, we don't get to find out if he was correct. We don't get to see if the clone's badge had a tracker on it.
So what are we to make of this story. We are told by Chopra that Winterton was made a judge but his experiences and his injuries drove him increasingly insane to the point where he had to be imprisoned and silenced. But according to Winterton he was never made into a judge and was imprisoned because he wouldn't do what he was told and play along with the official version of what happened. What you believe is based on who you believe Chopra or Winterton. As a reader, we have seen Winterton attack a defenceless man and laugh hysterically afterward, which surely would give us doubts of his truthfulness. Chopra on the other hand is telling a version where Drerdd does kill his clone, but in order to stop a potential Sov infiltration that could tip the balance of the war in favour of the enemy.
So what do I believe? Looking at both stories I can only say that both versions are at least plausible. The events as they are told all happened in both stories. it is only the motives and the perceptions that are open to interpretation. So who is right. I find myself considering these two points...
If the Sovs had actually captured Judge Dredd during the war, they would know what an important person he was in Justice Department. After all, he has personally foiled two earlier Sov plots against Mega City One before the war had even started. Knowing this, is it likely that upon capturing Dredd would the Sovs had sent him to the Citadel? Or would they have tried to get information from him through interegation or torture? Would they have tried to use brain surgery on him to turn him into their puppet like Griffin, or put him on television in a show trial to show the World that they had him and were to execute him in order to demoralise their opponents? If this is the case, then Dredd's theory that his clone was sent to impersonate him in order to gain information from the judges in the citadel seems more likely.
But there is an issue with this. The Sov's cloning technology was far inferior to Mega City One's science . Sov clones were apt to various levels of genetic flaws. We saw this with the War Marshall himself as he had to wear special goggles in order to function because of his weak eyes. Even later clones after the war were not much better as with the wheelchair bound defector. Even if the Sovs did manage to obtain Dredd or Fargo's genetic structure, how did they manage to create such a convincing clone of Dredd? How was it produced. If the Sov's had acquired Mega city one cloning technology as well as Dredd's genetic material then that might answer this question but if they did, why is their cloning so inferior all these years later?
So what do I believe? Speaking as someone who read the original run of the Apocalypse War at the time, I want to believe Chopra's version of events. Despite the plot hole, I believe when Dredd threw his clone to his death, he believed he was disposing of a dangerous Sov infiltrator. I'm sure some will not agree with me, but the way this story has been presented and unless something new is said canonically, that is what I will believe.

IndigoPrime

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Re: Dredd: The Citadel
« Reply #21 on: 27 April, 2022, 10:36:42 PM »
Quote
We don't get to see if the clone's badge had a tracker on it.
I’d say at the very least that’s inferred by the artwork.

AlexF

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Re: Dredd: The Citadel
« Reply #22 on: 29 April, 2022, 02:56:35 PM »
Deeply impressed by your analysis and line of questions, Tjm! I tend to read Wagner stories with an eye mostly to the surface level, because he's a world class entertainer. But I think you've hit on something not so far below the surface when you talk about us long-term readers being stand ins for both Winterton and Chopra, where we look back on what Dredd used to be like, is like now, and 'should' be in either time period.

There's another thread going about if Dredd is hero or villain and this story is a classic example of him being both, not least because we get to see two versions of Dredd behainvg slightly differently. 'Our' Dredd is heroic in the straight reading of the story, where the clone was a Sov, Dredd intuited it, then it was confirmed moments before his accidental death. But he's also a villain because his treatment of the cadets and Cit-Def alike is SO very harsh we can't quite bear it - even if we might sneakily think that it's justified in a war setting.

And Dredd is arguably a villain even more clearly in how Winterton is treated. Whether Winterton's version of the story is true or not, they chose to lock him away for 40 years for spurious 'mustn't do anything to upset the power of the state' reasons.

But also there's nothing specific to this story that challenges Dredd's world as such, it's more of a ripping yarn with a reminder that the Judges like to control the narrative as much as any given Totalitarian state.

Richard

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Re: Dredd: The Citadel
« Reply #23 on: 29 April, 2022, 03:51:40 PM »
Quote
they chose to lock him away for 40 years for spurious 'mustn't do anything to upset the power of the state' reasons.

Well and also because "they found him chewing through the neck of a first offender."

Proudhuff

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Re: Dredd: The Citadel
« Reply #24 on: 30 April, 2022, 04:22:03 PM »
There's a couple of panels missing from the end of the story. Chopra walks into the next room where Dredd is standing with arms crossed.

"He buy it?" asks Dredd.

"He bought it, comrade," replies Chopra.

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DDT did a job on me

Tjm86

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Re: Dredd: The Citadel
« Reply #25 on: 07 May, 2022, 08:05:51 PM »
Quote
We don't get to see if the clone's badge had a tracker on it.
I’d say at the very least that’s inferred by the artwork.

More than inferred, surely.  TBH though I missed the detail on a first read.  The colouring makes it blend a bit into the background brickwork.  I read that as deliberate, linking to the idea of Winterton's questionable memory.  What is remembered is what is attended to ...

One of the issues I'm struggling with, in terms of accepting The Citadel as being set during The Apocalypse War, is that the design aesthetic doesn't match up. The Sovs are using a bunch of equipment we never saw during the original depiction, so it seems like a visual reboot.

The artwork was one aspect of the story I had an issue with on the first reading.  Like I said, the visuals seem more in keeping with modern than early-80's Dredd.  Thinking about it from the point of view of memory issues though, it does make sense.  I know it's over-analysing but ...

Artistic licence. Dredd doesn't really wear a new uniform in every story, it's just different artists' depictions of the same hardware.

Dredd: Stomm, is it Brendan McCarthy week again already…? Have I really gotta wear this gruddamn helmet? It looks like a drokking wok!

IIRC there was a strip about that once up a time.  Want to say Fabry or Pugh on art.  Thought it was Prog 500 but got that one wrong.

Proudhuff

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Re: Dredd: The Citadel
« Reply #26 on: 10 May, 2022, 11:49:44 AM »
The Sov-Dredd did seem to be a bit of a 'throw away' (sorry) plot angle and not fully thought through.

I could be totally mis-remembering, but didn't the big W used to run stories by some or our now sadly departed boarders to Mega check them?
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maryanddavid

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Re: Dredd: The Citadel
« Reply #27 on: 10 May, 2022, 12:50:03 PM »
There was one other source of good quality
Dredd clones outside of MC1 at the time, the Judda.
They had no love for MC1, its plausible that they supplied the clone.
.

Richard

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Re: Dredd: The Citadel
« Reply #28 on: 10 May, 2022, 04:23:39 PM »
Quote
The Sov-Dredd did seem to be a bit of a 'throw away' (sorry) plot angle and not fully thought through.
I don't see that. The whole story was building up to something along those lines from the first episode. Wintertime said he had some dirt on Dredd from the beginning.

As for the Judda, they wanted to take over the city for themselves. It wouldn't be in their interest to help someone else do it. Nor would the Sovs spare them, knowing what their agenda was.