The Political Thread

[Professor Bear]

If all of that doesn't outweigh their position on Europe then I'm sorry, but you're out of your fucking mind.

I think this comment takes things too far, Jim - the idea that brain problems would make someone vote for UKIP is grossly insulting to harmless mentalists.

[IAMTHESYSTEM]

Morris the cat is surely the answer to all our electoral woes.

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/the-sideshow/morris-cat-running-mayor-mexican-city-184338488.html

[Ancient Otter]

What is TTIP and where do your MEPs stand on it (particularly if England pulls out of the EU)?

[The Legendary Shark]

It's global Fascism, that's all, and we're all too busy trying to make enough money to pay for it to fight it.
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Never mind, though, we've got plenty of mindless politics, shallow news, ignorant racism and pointless television to distract us from it.
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One day very soon we will all wake up as slaves in the countries our ancestors built for us and won't know exactly how or why or when it happened. It's just like boiling frogs - with us as the frogs.
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It's time we started asking some fundamental questions such as, why do you have to pay to live on a planet you were born on?
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Yeah, yeah, I know. I'm just a looney conspiracy theorist living in a borrowed tent. Nothing to see here. Move along.
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Move along.

[Trout]

I'm just glad to hear from you, Shark. Every time I see your name as last poster on this thread I wonder if you've blown up the Palace of Westminster! 

[Professor Bear]

Not so long ago you were getting on at us for giving him ideas.

Never mind, though, we've got plenty of mindless politics, shallow news, ignorant racism and pointless television to distract us from it.

Circuses are nothing new, Sharky, but they still didn't stop the odd slave rebellion from happening.  Chin up.

[Jim_Campbell]

I'm not voting Ukip because I think they're going to get elected, it's about forcing one of the main parties to give us a choice on the matter, as opposed to them all being for membership of the European Union.  That's all I want.  And if that makes me "f.....g mad", so be it.

European elections aren't run on first-past-the-post: vote for an extremist party and you'll get an extremist MEP, and the message you'll be sending to Westminster is "more extremism, please". You cannot pick a single issue out of UKIP's reprehensible array of policies and say that is what you're voting for, any more than you could say "Ooh, that nice Mr Hitler does have some funny ideas about the Jews but I'm in favour of his fiscal policy."

If you want to ignore the numerous policies I have clearly outlined and pretend that your vote for UKIP is solely about EU membership, particularly when the Tories are clearly committed to giving you a referendum on that very issue, then I say again: turkeys and Christmas.

You said before that the European Union is an abstract thing, and didn't respond when I pointed out some of the areas where the European Union is certainly not an abstract thing.

Actually, I said that compared to a list of other things that I thought it was worth getting politically aggravated about, the EU was an abstract thing to be putting at the top of your concerns.

from how much I pay for my groceries,

OK... you're going to need to tell me specifically how the EU affects this. I accept that there are lots of areas of EU policy/legislation that might affect this, but I need to know what you're specifically saying affects the cost of your weekly shop at Tesco, or wherever.

to how long it takes to see a doctor,

The current government has removed the legal requirement for your GP to see you within a specific timeframe. I'm unclear what the EU's involvement in that was.

to how much VAT I pay on my utility bills,

Yes, VAT is a European tax and significant changes to exemptions and reduced rates is subject to EU ratification, but VAT is also the government's third largest revenue stream. If you think domestic VAT* would look in any way different if we left the EU, you're sadly mistaken.

to the amount of green taxes I have to pay,

Some green taxes originate with the EU. Some don't. We'll have to agree to disagree on whether environmental protection is a good thing.

to having to move my bank because of EU rules

Again, you'll have to explain this to me.

Jim

*One thing that would happen, however, is that UK businesses trading with Europe would lose the ability to net off VAT charged and paid on some categories of services and product and just have to pay the whole lot. There are many reasons that no businesses which trade with Europe want to leave the EU, and this is one of them.

[TordelBack]

Yeah, yeah, I know. I'm just a looney conspiracy theorist living in a borrowed tent.

The Prophet of Millets.  I'm starting to think Mr. Ipsum Lorem, Position, Address 1, Address 2, City, Country, Postcode is actually your image consultant, Shark!

No, there isn't a word of that I couldn't agree with.  TTIP is a Bad Thing.  I asked a prospective MEP about it last week, and they blathered a bit and said they'd 'look into it'.  As you can imagine I was inspired by their zeal and general awareness.

Incidentally, the figures in the linked article suggest a 100 billion boost for the EU - that's 200 bucks each!  What're you going to do when they send you yours, eh?

[The Legendary Shark]

Parliament doesn't need blowing up, it needs rescuing. I just wish I'd realised that before opening up all those abandoned underground lines and buying 25,000 dominoes...

[Old Tankie]

Hi Jim, I know the EU elections are not first passed the post but the idea is to make one of the main parties, probably Tory, change their EU policies in the General Election of either 2015 or, more probably, 2020.

As regards to how the EU affects me, my answers to your questions are:-

1.  The Common Agricultural Policy has forced up food prices over the years because of EU import tariffs on non-EU produce.  The UK is a net contributor to the EU budget, so who's taxes do you think were being used in the old days to create butter mountains and are now being used to pay farmers to keep their fields fallow.

2.  I live in an area of high population growth, some of it because of EU immigration, but my local doctor's surgery has not taken on any more doctors, but has taken on many more patients.  Therefore it takes me longer to see my doctor.  I don't care what the law says, that's the reality.

3.  I'm old enough to remember Gordon Brown wanting to scrap VAT on utility bills but he wasn't allowed to because of EU law.

4.  Green taxes are higher because we're in the EU.

5.  Yes, I know it's unbelievable but last year I was forced, because of EU rules, to move my bank account from Lloyds to another bank, even though it makes it much more difficult for me to visit my new bank.  But, hey!, why would the EU care about that!

Of course, these are just a few examples of the EU affecting my daily life, there are many more.  I'm just answering your specific points.

Finally, why would I pretend anything?  I don't care what you think of me.  I don't know you, so c'est la vie!

[Definitely Not Mister Pops]

Well I'm voting UKIP because I'm sick of the gays controlling the weather

[Theblazeuk]

Why on earth would you be forced to move your account from Lloyds?

[Jim_Campbell]

Hi Jim, I know the EU elections are not first passed the post but the idea is to make one of the main parties, probably Tory, change their EU policies in the General Election of either 2015 or, more probably, 2020.

You're providing support and validation for a racist, right-wing fringe party in order to force Cameron into doing something that he's already promised to do (i.e: hold an in/out referendum)?

Of course, these are just a few examples of the EU affecting my daily life, there are many more.  I'm just answering your specific points.

I should point out this is your list which you offered as reasons why you would place a party's position on EU membership as a higher political priority than the list of things I offered which, for the sake of completeness was this:

The systematic stealth dismantling of the NHS? The privatisation of the state education system? Plans to sell our medical and tax information to private companies? Hundreds of millions of pounds spent hounding sick and disabled people on benefits until they commit suicide? The state of British railways (we spend more subsidising our railways now that we did when it was nationalised and yet every single train operator turns a profit)?

1.  The Common Agricultural Policy has forced up food prices over the years because of EU import tariffs on non-EU produce.  The UK is a net contributor to the EU budget, so who's taxes do you think were being used in the old days to create butter mountains and are now being used to pay farmers to keep their fields fallow.

Agriculture is a mess. I'm just as inclined to point to the distorting economic effects of the supermarket cartel, which gives rise to such insanities as the fact that we live on island that's basically a 600-mile strip of prime grazing pasture and all our dairy farmers are going out of business...

I don't know what the answer is, but I'll readily agree that isn't the CAP.

2.  I live in an area of high population growth, some of it because of EU immigration, but my local doctor's surgery has not taken on any more doctors, but has taken on many more patients.  Therefore it takes me longer to see my doctor.  I don't care what the law says, that's the reality.

Wait. What? Your GP practise which — let's not forget — is a private business that makes money by providing a contracted service to the NHS chose to preserve its revenues by not taking on additional doctors, driving up waiting periods for appointments, and the current government has changed the law so that GPs are now legally able to do this. And this is the EU's fault?

3.  I'm old enough to remember Gordon Brown wanting to scrap VAT on utility bills but he wasn't allowed to because of EU law.

How old you think I am?

I appreciate that every penny counts, but I suspect that flagrant profiteering by the privatised utilities is a larger chunk of your bill every month than the 5% that's going on VAT. You should have voted Green — they're committed to an in/out EU referendum and renationalising the energy utilities.

4.  Green taxes are higher because we're in the EU.

I didn't dispute this. Green taxes serve a purpose. Whether or not that purpose is worthwhile is a different argument.

5.  Yes, I know it's unbelievable but last year I was forced, because of EU rules, to move my bank account from Lloyds to another bank, even though it makes it much more difficult for me to visit my new bank.  But, hey!, why would the EU care about that!

I assume you're talking about the Lloyds/TSB de-merger? If so, it's true that this stemmed from EU legislation on anti-competitive practices — the generally sensible principle that trading partners shouldn't use government aid to give companies an unfair competitive advantage. This sort of thing is often also covered by international trade treaties and agreements — are you saying that governments should never sign any of those?

With respect to your specific example: I don't understand how you found yourself in that situation. The worst thing that should have happened was that your local branch turned into a TSB — was that not the case, or are you referring to something other than the de-merger?

Jim

[Hawkmumbler]

Well I'm voting UKIP because I'm sick of the gays controlling the weather

Damn gays.

[Professor Bear]

I'm on a real post-apocalyptic binge right now so I'm voting UKIP because I think I would do well if I lived in Mad Max times.  I imagine the actual apocalypse would be hard on most people, but the main thing is I'd be alright.