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Author Topic: The Political Thread  (Read 1697761 times)

CalHab

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #18675 on: 01 September, 2021, 01:38:04 PM »
I see very few people compelling anyone to have a vaccine. But there are arguments that those who choose not to—and that are therefore a danger at a societal level—might find themselves in a position where they cannot do certain things. In which case: tough. They’ll whine and moan, but it’s no different from “have jab X to visit country Y”, which has long been a thing.

Exactly. I have had to get Hep B and Yellow Fever vaccines when travelling to some areas and have required a certificate to prove my vaccination status. This has been the case for decades, and is not "controversial".

CalHab

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #18676 on: 01 September, 2021, 01:42:26 PM »
We’ve known COVID is aerosol-based for a very long time, and yet mask mandates still aren’t in place in the UK and USA because, what, some people are arguing enforced mask use for a temporary period is against their human rights?

Just a note that mask mandates are still in place in Scotland. Anecdotally, this is apparently a problem in tourist areas. Not wearing a mask is seen by some visitors as standing up against the evil SNP.

Jim_Campbell

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #18677 on: 01 September, 2021, 06:36:00 PM »
[Not wearing a mask is seen by some visitors

You say visitors, I say REDACTED.
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Funt Solo

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #18678 on: 01 September, 2021, 06:47:10 PM »
Science tells us that natural immunity is far superior to vaccinated immunity

No, it doesn't. Vaccination Offers Higher Protection than Previous COVID-19 Infection

Plus, people keep pointing out to you that in the case of just getting it, you also have to suffer the effects of the disease, whereas with the vaccine you don't.

There is no logical basis for your anti-vaxx rhetoric.
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milstar

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #18679 on: 01 September, 2021, 08:09:13 PM »
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Variants are most likely to appear in a fairly high-vaccinated population but where there are few mitigations in play and were a still reasonably sized chunk of the population is unwilling to be vaccinated. Hello, UK/USA!

But doesn't that imply that vaccine is responsible for creating variants? And I mean, covid reached the whole globe practically. It's not that variant versions appeared in only USA/UK.


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That would be the scientists who have pivoted as soon as their understanding has changed, informed politicians and sat there aghast as many politicians have refused to believe the science or adjusted it to only take on board what they wanted to? We’ve known COVID is aerosol-based for a very long time, and yet mask mandates still aren’t in place in the UK and USA because, what, some people are arguing enforced mask use for a temporary period is against their human rights?

What can I say? We live in selfish times.

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That isn’t going to be what happens. But when boosters are free and could stop you getting sick, would it really be that much of a hardship to rock up once a year at a vaccine centre? The second boosters are available for my age group (having had Moderna and seen the efficacy drop-off), I’ll sign up.

Ah...not for me. As if we are cattle for taking each year a shot. The best is ofcourse a vaccine that keeps you protected until your heart stops beating. Like for TB. That's why I said once I am not taking a vaccine, in order to see how things will develop. As I see it, the situation with the vaccines is far from perfect. My mother had to wait for months to get the second jab of AZ (which I vehemently refused). And apparently, Russian or Chinese are far from ideal, but we haven't got those. Russians rushed up their development of the vaccine so they had to withdraw it temporary. Now I am reading that Chinese vaccine may offer squat protection for the elders.
Reyt, you lot. Shut up, belt up, 'n if ye can't see t' bloody exit, ye must be bloody blind.

MumboJimbo

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #18680 on: 01 September, 2021, 08:28:43 PM »

Ah...not for me. As if we are cattle for taking each year a shot.

There’s nothing inherently bovine about an annual vaccine booster, or (being less facetious, and trying to understand how you actually mean it) contrary to human dignity. I’ve no idea where this kind of thinking springs from. Is it some idea of rugged masculinity? The hardy frontiersman who can live off the land without government aid?

This year-and-a-bit has truly opened my eyes to how other people’s internal monologue is just so bloody alien to me.

IndigoPrime

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #18681 on: 01 September, 2021, 08:40:22 PM »
But doesn't that imply that vaccine is responsible for creating variants?
No. It’s that vaccinating your population to a fairly high degree, but then not mitigating spread AND not vaccinating to herd immunity levels, means you end up with one of the main ways in which a virus can end up mutating into something more deadly. There are other scenarios as well.

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Ah...not for me. As if we are cattle for taking each year a shot. The best is ofcourse a vaccine that keeps you protected until your heart stops beating. Like for TB.
COVID is not TB. Some things work for your whole life. Others do not. Would you refuse a tetanus booster, or prefer to get lockjaw?

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As I see it, the situation with the vaccines is far from perfect.
Imagine if everyone had waited until measles vaccines were “perfect” or polio ones were. I really don’t understand this viewpoint—it’s just beyond my comprehension.

milstar

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #18682 on: 01 September, 2021, 09:05:20 PM »
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COVID is not TB. Some things work for your whole life. Others do not. Would you refuse a tetanus booster, or prefer to get lockjaw?

Well, considering TB in its time had a rather large death toll, I woudln't sign off that notion easily.
I had tetanus only once when I hurt my knee in childhood days. I hurt my knee a few more times from later on, but I am absolutely fine.

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Imagine if everyone had waited until measles vaccines were “perfect” or polio ones were. I really don’t understand this viewpoint—it’s just beyond my comprehension.

So far all vaccines we have have been put through a meat grinder for measuring effect they have. I am not talking about covid related ones. Who sanely enough would release an untested and undeveloped properly vaccine that showed signs of impinging your health?
Reyt, you lot. Shut up, belt up, 'n if ye can't see t' bloody exit, ye must be bloody blind.

IndigoPrime

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #18683 on: 01 September, 2021, 09:24:14 PM »
Well, considering TB in its time had a rather large death toll, I woudln't sign off that notion easily.
Are you being intentionally obtuse? My point is they are not the same thing, in a literal sense. One TB jab is fine. One COVID jab is not. As for tetanus, the point is efficacy fades. The difference there (from COVID) is you can be reactive rather than proactive—although GPs will generally tell you to keep your tetanus jab up to date.

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I am not talking about covid related ones.
OK, so why aren’t you taking a COVID jab, then?

Funt Solo

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #18684 on: 01 September, 2021, 11:03:23 PM »
People take a yearly flu shot because flu is really a sequence of variants.

Taking medicine to circumvent illness is a modern wonder.

I know there are some religious sects that refuse to "pollute" themselves with medicine, but I didn't realize that the education systems of modern nations were so woeful as to have produced a sizable sub-culture of moon-struck ignorami, waving their collective fists at passing helicopters and shunning needles in favor of the ranting non-sequiturs of poe-faced minor online demogogues.

Or, as Socrates would say: "What a load of pish".
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milstar

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #18685 on: 01 September, 2021, 11:13:12 PM »
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Are you being intentionally obtuse? My point is they are not the same thing, in a literal sense. One TB jab is fine. One COVID jab is not. As for tetanus, the point is efficacy fades. The difference there (from COVID) is you can be reactive rather than proactive—although GPs will generally tell you to keep your tetanus jab up to date.

Nobody told me anything about tetanus.
Me say one covid vaccine should be developed to be one enough, not taking x shots for God knows how many almighty variants. Ofcourse, never happened in human history that an antidote is developed for a disease that came afterwards.

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OK, so why aren’t you taking a COVID jab, then?

I think twice is enough for now.
One thing I agree with Sharky here. And that is the question in whether these vaccines do the job (some obviously didn't), which is pretty a valid question.
Reyt, you lot. Shut up, belt up, 'n if ye can't see t' bloody exit, ye must be bloody blind.

Pyroxian

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #18686 on: 01 September, 2021, 11:30:59 PM »
I think twice is enough for now.
One thing I agree with Sharky here. And that is the question in whether these vaccines do the job (some obviously didn't), which is pretty a valid question.

All you have to do is look at the deaths:cases ratio - we're experiencing the same number of cases at the moment as we did just before Christmas last year (so pre-vaccine roll out), but we're seeing an 80% drop in fatalities. I'd say the vaccines are working.

https://gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com/apps/dashboards/bda7594740fd40299423467b48e9ecf6 (Click on the UK data - we're fourth from the top...)

Mister Pops

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #18687 on: 01 September, 2021, 11:57:50 PM »
.. I didn't realize that the education systems of modern nations were so woeful as to have produced a sizable sub-culture of moon-struck ignorami, waving their collective fists at passing helicopters and shunning needles in favor of the ranting non-sequiturs of poe-faced minor online demogogues.


I think a major weakness of modern education systems has been exposed by the lockdowns; many parents and politicians see school as a place to provide free child-care first, and education second.
You may quote me on that.

IndigoPrime

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #18688 on: 02 September, 2021, 07:58:55 AM »
One of the interesting theories at the moment is that the common cold may well have been an ongoing pandemic until, thousands of years later, humans adapted. We are fortunate to live in a world where a broadly effective vaccine can be made in relatively little time, based on ongoing research. It’s a pity people don’t see the value in vaccines or have a binary approach to defining success.

milstar

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Re: The Political Thread
« Reply #18689 on: 02 September, 2021, 11:25:16 AM »
All you have to do is look at the deaths:cases ratio - we're experiencing the same number of cases at the moment as we did just before Christmas last year (so pre-vaccine roll out), but we're seeing an 80% drop in fatalities. I'd say the vaccines are working.

https://gisanddata.maps.arcgis.com/apps/dashboards/bda7594740fd40299423467b48e9ecf6 (Click on the UK data - we're fourth from the top...)

I'd say it's great that we have diversity in options in picking vaccines.
Reyt, you lot. Shut up, belt up, 'n if ye can't see t' bloody exit, ye must be bloody blind.