Wasn't sure whether to stick this in "Creative Common" or here, but anyway.
I've been farting about with a cheapo graphics tablet and some art packages for a while now but I've found that there are good and bad points to all of them. The one I use most for drawing is Gimp but I've found Pshop 6 elements better on the colour side of things, Inkscape I couldn't get on with at all and some of them like Illustrator seem pretty pricey. It's time to settle on one and learn it properly.
So my question is what art packages do people use? Which ones are the best to actually invest some time in and learn how to use proficiently? I know Jim mentioned one of the Manga programs recently and Painter is reasonably priced but there are so many out there.
I know some of you guys are professional artists and I'd love to hear what people who use art packages to make their livings think on the subject. What do you use?
Quote from: Kerrin on 03 August, 2009, 09:13:04 PM
What do you use?
Illustrator has one real advantage over most of the competitors, in as much as all your strokes remain individual editable elements.
However, I've got a 2.16GHz Core 2 Duo iMac with 2Gb of RAM and a passable graphics card and I have serious performance issues with my graphics tablet with Illustrator CS3 (and with Photoshop CS3 too). I'm given to believe that this is due to Adobe's shitty coding, a suggestion supported by the fact that I have no such issues in with non-Adobe software!
Manga Studio (the virtues of which have recently been extolled by no less than Dave Gibbons) comes in two flavours, Debut and EX. As I've said previously, I'm only interested in Manga Studio for inking (although I think I could probably get used to pencilling, too -- there's a perspective grid feature that's very nice) and so I don't miss any of the features that are restricted to the EX version.
The Debut version costs $49 and can be downloaded directly here (http://store.smithmicro.com/home.tpl?group=store_product&sku=MSDC40BX2).
Limited version or not, I feel like I'm really only scratching the surface so far, and the (seemingly) unlimited number of Undos goes some way to compensating for the lack of editable strokes.
I've tried to get to grips with about three different versions of Painter over the last ten years, including one attempt last year, mainly because the pens actually behave like pens. However, the interface has always been horrible, and remains so as far as I can tell.
If I could get Photoshop to behave itself, I'd be tempted to do more work in it, but for right now it's too much of a pain to attempt any significant kind of drawing work.
Cheers
Jim
Cheers Jim, I've got a feeling I've got a free demo of that Manga Studio on a disc somewhere, must dig it out, especially if it has built in perspective grids.
I've also realised that in the last paragraph of my initial post I've given the impression that I'd only like to hear from comic pros, not the case, I'd love to hear opinions from one and all.
Well, if you don't mind hearing from complete muppets: as good as most of the market leaders are, if you don't actually know what they can do or how to go about making them do it, they're all equally useless, so, erm... pick a good all-rounder and practice like buggery.
I've found photoshop quite useful for drawing and colouring these past few years, but Illustrator (which I simply had to learn to use at work) does have a pretty tidy Live Trace option that can work wonders on your pencils if they're polished enough, plus a handy Live Paint option to create an editable inked version for tweaking - they're not magic one-push filters, though, so you have to fiddle and tweak them to get results that you're satisfied with.
It's Corel Draw all the way for me, as it includes both a vector graphics program and a Photoshop-type program as well as a few other bits and bobs. Being a complete doofus, I found the program easy to learn and it does just about everything I need it to do.
You can download a trial version of Corel draw 12 from here: http://www.corel.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=Corel2/Products/Content&pid=1047022690654&cid=1047022692152 (http://www.corel.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=Corel2/Products/Content&pid=1047022690654&cid=1047022692152)
PS
Just about everything on my website was created with the Corel package: http://www.sharkpool.co.uk/portfolio.html
I've only ever used Photoshop, and find that it does everything I want it to. Would like to get round to learning Illustrator one day, but so far I've no great need to.
I still draw everything by hand, and use the computer for colour and texture.
I use an Apple Mac Pro with 3GB of RAM. Use an A4 Wacom Intuos 2 tablet. Was used to an A5 tablet at a workplace and like an idiot ordered an A4 one which I should've changed. Takes up too much desk space. Had some issues few months ago as couldn't draw smooth lines but some helpful fella's suggestion on another message board solved it. I use Photoshop CS2 but was used to CS4 at the last workplace.
I can't get to grips with drawing in Illustrator though I use it extensively for work. Photoshop seems more satisfying for drawing. I feel I need to battle through and work out how to draw and ink using the computer only but I didn't get anywhere near sussing out how to do this on paper. I need to look into saving brush settings that I am happy with as I feel that most pictures I draw don't have the same finish.
I'm curious about Manga Studio (there is a function which mirrors your drawing – so no more hassle of trying to get Dredd's helmet symmetrical or Spidey's eyes matching) and Painter but I can't fork out for anything right now and I don't like loading demo versions on my computer.
(Feel a bit of a fraud posting this after Radiator as I'm a merely a humble doodler.)
Quote from: SuperSurfer on 04 August, 2009, 01:35:31 AM
Had some issues few months ago as couldn't draw smooth lines but some helpful fella's suggestion on another message board solved it.
Do tell.
I've got a very basic set up at the moment, 2 year old 13" Macbook with 4GB of ram and a little Wacom Bamboo tablet with an A6 working surface. I think I'll probably up that to an A5 Intuos soonish and I need to invest in a larger screen.
It sounds so far as if people get good results from Pshop so I'll definitely persevere with that. I think I need to be a little braver in my experimentations, I've still got a paper artist's perspective on making mistakes and forget how easy it is to reverse and fix things digitally.
Keep 'em coming, I'm sure it's not just me who's curious about what people use to produce their work.
Quote from: Kerrin on 04 August, 2009, 07:50:35 AM
I've still got a paper artist's perspective on making mistakes and forget how easy it is to reverse and fix things digitally.
Layers are your friend! Because I'm trying to dismantle my ink style at the moment, I actually keep my inks on three layers: Basic Line, which you might consider the same thing as detailed pencils; Blacks & Heavy Line; Shading ... and sometimes a fourth for White.
I'm trying to make myself bolder with my inking, and it's a hell of a lot easier when you can decide that a particular hatching effect doesn't work and discard it without undoing all your other drawing ...!
Cheers
Jim
While on the subject of layers, masks are an invaluable tool.
Masks can be applied to a single layer and use a greyscale (alpha) image to control the transparency of the layer.
The advantages of masks is that you can use them like an eraser, where you add a mask to a layer and then draw directly into the mask to reveal or hide the content of the layer. Unlike the eraser tool though, the mask is only hiding the layer content and you don't modify the content of the layer in any way.
If you erase too much with the eraser when tracing around a character, you have to hit undo and repeat your work. If you paint too much on a mask, you simply change your brush to the inverse colour and paint back in the area you want to unhide. If at a later date you want to unhide more, you can.
More information can be found here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Nj7uB5T0NE
Its usually used extensively during photoshopping, but it does have its uses in every field.
Quotemasks are an invaluable tool.
Agreed. I use masks
extensively, and the use of masks has bled into my illustration work as well as convential Pshop stuff.
When I'm working on an illustration, I don't 'paint' as such, rather I use a complex combination of adjustment layers and masks - this allows for a near-infinite amount of control over the image, allowing me to go back and alter any aspect of an image at any time. It also means that when I'm finished 'painting' an image, I can spend as long as I want on 'post-production' colour-correcting and tweaking to really push the image that bit further.
Curves are also really cool for adding an overall colour cast to an image, giving it a more unified feel - or you can try experimenting with things like adding in a bit of yellow or red to your highlights for instance.
Pretty much all of this image was created with curves and masks:
(http://th07.deviantart.net/fs47/300W/f/2009/203/f/f/The_Captain__s_Last_Stand_by_TomBerryArtist.jpg)
Photoshop and Painter. Getting a bit bored with the painted look though and I'm tempted to give Manga Studio a go.
Quote from: Kerrin on 04 August, 2009, 07:50:35 AM
Quote from: SuperSurfer on 04 August, 2009, 01:35:31 AM
Had some issues few months ago as couldn't draw smooth lines but some helpful fella's suggestion on another message board solved it.
Do tell.
I think the Wacom issues I had were down to a glitch since I upgraded to OS X 10.5. My Wacom pen was acting as if possessed. The advice I read was to unclip the button on the pen and turn one of the tiny screws underneath and it worked. Took me ages to solve the problem. For a long time I thought I had just messed up the default pen settings. Saved me money as I was going to replace it.
Nice one fellas, there's some great advice in there. I'm starting to get my head round layers but haven't attempted masks yet. Better give 'em a try.
Thanks very much for that link Vince, it never even occurred to me to look on Youtube for tutorials. I learn things far easier by watching them demonstrated proficiently rather than trying to interpret a written description of the method involved, I think most people do, so cheers for that.
I'm doing a bit of research for a peripheral screen as well at the moment, Samsung seem to have a good balance between quality and cost and are what I'm leaning toward but there are plenty to choose from. God it'll be nice to have a decent size screen.
That pirate pic gets better every time I look at it Radman.
Sorry for the double post. I've ordered a copy of Manga Studio Debut from Amazon, they've got them for £35 incl P+P, a little bit more than downloading it from the link Jim posted but I like to get all the bumf with it.. Looks very easy to get on with from the advertising blurb, cheers for the recommendation Jim.
Realised I waffled on and battered the thread off topic last post so if you do use an art package that you think people should consider that hasn't been mentioned, please carry on and share it with us.
laying out comics in Indesign
http://drawn.ca/2009/08/12/laying-out-comics-in-adobe-indesign/
That's a cracking blog that is Johnny, bookmarked. You should post a link to it in the tutorials thread. Just the sort of thing that would fit in there perfectly.
Personally Im a Photoshop CS1 kinda guy. Tried Painter a bit but couldnt get my head around it.
My computers a bit sh*t (Athalon 2.2 single core, 1GB ram, GForce 6 series graphics card) and tends to fall over and cough up blood if i try and use CS3.
Im really getting into custom brushes at the moment, tons of them can be found for free online but it's much more fun creating your own.
For years I've been hand-drawing stuff, then scanning it and working on it/colouring it in photoshop 7 on my antiquated imac G3. Just acquired a shiny new PC laptop and Adobe CS2, so trying to learn how to paint with the touch pad at the moment! Think I'm gonna pick up a mouse, as it's very tricky to achieve any subtlety. Really really fancy picking up a graphic tablet, but might have to wait til Christmas!
Oh, and I must get to grips with Illustrator eventually too.
Grimm, don't bother with a mouse. Save your money and go for a Wacom tablet that comes with a mouse (when you've got the cash, obviously). Even the smaller ones are better than you'd expect. And a mouse won't help much with subtlety...
Quote from: uncle fester on 21 August, 2009, 01:58:04 PM
Grimm, don't bother with a mouse. Save your money and go for a Wacom tablet that comes with a mouse (when you've got the cash, obviously).
Wise words, mate! Someone described drawing with a mouse as being like painting with a brick, and that's about right, frankly.
This one (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Wacom-Bamboo-MTE450KEN-Pen-Tablet/dp/B000R3Q360/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1250859877&sr=8-1) seems remarkably good value for ~£50.
Cheers
Jim
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 21 August, 2009, 02:10:57 PM
Quote from: uncle fester on 21 August, 2009, 01:58:04 PM
Grimm, don't bother with a mouse. Save your money and go for a Wacom tablet that comes with a mouse (when you've got the cash, obviously).
Wise words, mate! Someone described drawing with a mouse as being like painting with a brick, and that's about right, frankly.
I knew someone who did everything with a Trackball and found the move to a Wacom more than a little liberating.
The best advice from those who use them a lot are that you should try and get the best one you can afford but it is worth having a practice on one to see how big your brush strokes are because that can help you decide if you need a large one or if a smaller pad will suffice.
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 21 August, 2009, 02:10:57 PM
Quote from: uncle fester on 21 August, 2009, 01:58:04 PM
Grimm, don't bother with a mouse. Save your money and go for a Wacom tablet that comes with a mouse (when you've got the cash, obviously).
Wise words, mate! Someone described drawing with a mouse as being like painting with a brick, and that's about right, frankly.
This one (http://www.amazon.co.uk/Wacom-Bamboo-MTE450KEN-Pen-Tablet/dp/B000R3Q360/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=electronics&qid=1250859877&sr=8-1) seems remarkably good value for ~£50.
That's the one I've got and it's bloody good for the money. I'm probably going to upgrade to an A5 size intuos (eBay always have several second hand ones) as I feel a little constrained by the A6 drawing surface, but till I get my act together with that it's perfectly good. The difference it makes to the use and enjoyment of art programs can't be over emphasised Grimm, well worth the investment.
Personal recommendation for the Intuos A5 here. You'd have to pry mine from my cold dead hands.
And it comes with a battery-less mouse. If they'd make a wireless one, it'd be perfect!
Cheers
Jim
Thanks guys, really appreciate the tips. An A6 area seems a bit small to draw on, but I reckon it's just a matter of getting used to it? I mean, if I'm used to painting with the mouse, it's got to be an improvement. I'll check out some of those recommendations. :)