Sponsored by 2000ad in Stages (https://2kstages.github.io/index.html) - see links below.
Nemesis the Warlock - more info (https://2kstages.github.io/AtoZ/Nemesis/books.html)
VS
Zenith - more info (https://2kstages.github.io/AtoZ/Zenith/data.html)
What a way to finish off Round 6 and get our final Quarter Finalist. For many this will be the tie of the Round. I had these two down as potential finalists, one admittedly an outsider for that. Looking at the form book both of these have had tough journeys to this stage. Though neither has faced an opponent quite of this level.
Form book - Thrill vanquished to date (in order of round met earliest to latest):
Nemesis the Warlock: Bison; Indigo Prime; Defoe; Insurrection
Zenith: Harry Twenty; Buttonman; Ace Trucking; Anderson
Round 6 - or "Round of 16" as folks seem to like to call the last 16 these days (?!?) will feature just one thrill a day. I'd like to pretend this is to give these epic thrills more space and time to be commented on... but really it's to buy myself a bit of extra time to plan what comes next!
To Vote Just reply in this thread naming your favourite thrill of these two series at the beginning of your post (or use Bold tags so I can spot it easily) and say what you like about these wonderful stories after that.
Match ends early on the morning of Sunday 28th August and the winner gets a place in the Quarter Finals.
What on Earth is ALL of this? (https://forums.2000ad.com/index.php?topic=48011.0)
For those that need 'um and can be bothered to follow 'um there's some simple rules (https://forums.2000ad.com/index.php?topic=48011.msg1070150#msg1070150)
Any questions, just ask as ever - and have FUN!
Zenith
I just love Zenith. I've got the original Progs, the hard back editions with signed book plate, the Apex edition. I've even got the digital version.
It's got some of the best one liners ever in 2000AD. It features Steve Yeowell's best ever work. It's the best thing I've ever read by Grant Morrison.
But when it comes to deciding on this vote, it was an easy decision. Close but never in doubt: Nemesis The Warlock.
Oh, that's a tough one. Zenith I think, by a whisker.
Zenith
Zenith
Zenith, which is remarkable throughout, if we ignore the very last strip. Early Nemesis is superb too, but for me goes off the boil, never recovers and outstays it's welcome. And the last story was even worse than Zenith's.
Zenith
Ooohh. Zenith is arguably (or not) both Morrison and Yeowell's best work. Nemesis has O'Neill, Redondo, Talbot, Hicklenton, Roach and Flint. Ahhh...err....Zenith.
This isn't going how I'd expected! Zenith is almost perfect from the start of Phase 1 to the end of Phase 4 (although who thought it was a good idea to put Jim McCarthy on that Mandala story). Nemesis certainly can't lay claim to that, but was so utterly original and is still so unlike anything else I've read in comics* that I can't help but vote for it. Its highs were so, so high and its characters were so, so good.
Nemesis the Warlock gets my vote.
*so unlike anything else, that even a thrill accused of being derivative of it (Shakara) is still breathtakingly original.
Nemesis
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 25 August, 2022, 08:23:24 AM
Zenith, which is remarkable throughout, if we ignore the very last strip. Early Nemesis is superb too, but for me goes off the boil, never recovers and outstays it's welcome. And the last story was even worse than Zenith's.
Nicely put. Furthermore Zenith was running when I first got into the Prog and absolutely blew my mind with it's stark artwork, psuedo-Lovecraftian themes and brutal violence.
Zenith for me please.
Nemesis the Warlock
Nemesis.
SBT
Oh crikey! Gotta gets some votes in for my alien quick!
Look, I'll take the point that Zenith basically doesn't put a foot wrong (except Zzzenith, as many have pointed out). But it's also kind of always one thing, and it's not a thing I'm super in tune with. So an easy choice for me here.
But are people really suggesting that Nemesis the Warlock is anything less than perfect for not just 4 books, but 7? And at least book 8 does something interesting by putting a new character at the front, while revisiting some of the best ideas from Book 1; Book 9 has astonishing Hicklenton art; and although I can see why people dislike the final 2 one-off Nemesises, might it help to remember that Mills conceived the whole thing in the first place as the result of being abused by Catholic priests at his school and in a sense the whole thing is a massive FU to to the established church, and as such even though Nemesis himself is not a good or praiseworthy guy, the overall story HAS to end with Torquemada being eternally and totally humiliated?
What I'm saying is, Zenith may be a masterpiece of cynicism in taking down superhero tropes, but Nemesis is a masterpiece in heartfelt skewering of evil authority figures.
Vote Nemesis, vote Warlock, vote often!
zenith is genius from start to finish. the design is meticulous and satisfying, as is the actual plotting. this makes every reread an astounding pleasure. satire, superheroes, the occult, comedy, action and a story that is all consuming while remaining beautifully insouciant.
Nemesis
Quote from: AlexF on 25 August, 2022, 09:27:49 AMBut are people really suggesting that Nemesis the Warlock is anything less than perfect for not just 4 books, but 7?
For me, it was amazing through to Gothic Empire, wobbly from Vengeance through to Torquemada the God, and then – bar the odd high and some lovely art – rough through to the end.
In terms of the end, I thought the initial one worked fairly well, even if [spoiler]it was appallingly cruel on Seth[/spoiler], but then the second one rode roughshod over all of that, which [spoiler]admittedly got Seth out of that bind, but felt like a get-out[/spoiler].
Nemesis the Warlock.
Cheers
Quote from: AlexF on 25 August, 2022, 09:27:49 AM
Oh crikey! Gotta gets some votes in for my alien quick!
To be fair I've learnt and said on numerous votes early votes are not to be trusted as it chnages rapidly.
I agree with what most have said about both series, but my vote goes to Nemesis, as ever (I'd be midly surprised if any matches come up that leads me to vote against the Warlock, but we'll find out).
Nemesis
I like 'Zenith' a lot, but for me 'Nemesis The Warlock' wins this hands down.
Nemesis
Zenith for me. Nemesis is good, of course, and the earlier parts bordered on genius but it did tend to drift in the middle and came to an unsatisfying end. Even the brief return of Tubular Hells was just another scrap. Zenith on the other hand was quality throughout (Zzzenith being an entirely separate strip that for some reason hasn't featured in this tourney).
Nemesis
Zenith
Quote from: Timothy on 25 August, 2022, 02:04:37 PM
Zenith for me. Nemesis is good, of course, and the earlier parts bordered on genius but it did tend to drift in the middle and came to an unsatisfying end. Even the brief return of Tubular Hells was just another scrap. Zenith on the other hand was quality throughout (Zzzenith being an entirely separate strip that for some reason hasn't featured in this tourney).
And the Bicycle Repair Man text story?
Quote from: sheridan on 25 August, 2022, 02:56:09 PM
Quote from: Timothy on 25 August, 2022, 02:04:37 PM
Zenith for me. Nemesis is good, of course, and the earlier parts bordered on genius but it did tend to drift in the middle and came to an unsatisfying end. Even the brief return of Tubular Hells was just another scrap. Zenith on the other hand was quality throughout (Zzzenith being an entirely separate strip that for some reason hasn't featured in this tourney).
And the Bicycle Repair Man text story?
It was Millar's fault! Tales of the Alternative Earths: Montgomery: Ordinary Human Being (https://www.2000ad.org/?zone=prog&page=specials&choice=WINTER90). Fancy that, Millar ripping off an idea and repackaging it for 2000AD...
Tough choice, sooo much nostalgia for both but from different periods, still Zenith wins for sheer pizzazz!!
Unlike most, neither of these are my cup of tea. I don't prefer super heroes in 2000AD and dark sword and sorcery isn't my thing. Overall, I liked Zenith, especially book 1, and really appreciate all the crazy art I've seen in Nemesis. In the end, Zenith gets my vote.
Fanny-baws! These are two of the heavy hitters that could potentially dethrone the predictable winner, and ONE MUST DIE!
Nemesis the Warlock is something I couldn't imagine existing anywhere but 2000 AD. That's not true of Zenith, which, fantastic as it is, is more derivative. Yeowell's art on Zenith is mostly wonderful, but there's the odd "what's happening now?" panel that detracts. The superlative art lavished on the Warlock never fails to impress. I could go on, but I'm just listing out the reasons why this is such a no-brainer (between two giants of the prog).
Nemesis the Warlock
*By my count, I make this now a one vote lead for the warlock.
Zenith.
Well, this is... quite the scrap and not at all how I imagined this bout would go. Interesting. I'd still put money on the winner being [spoiler]Nemesis the Warlock, mind you, because that seems to be how these things go[/spoiler]. I'll heroically avoid using my mod powers to edit this post, to see if I'm right when Colin rings the bell! :D
it started well, but the deviant votes are now massing.
no matter - it is my understanding that the rules of the omnihedron allow for a clear recognition that an infinite number of universes logically permit for an infinite number of alternative zenith adherents, too. this, therefore, allows believers to lodge an infinite number of votes for the clearly superior thrill.
zenith. vote early, vote often, and blame it on the parallels.
Yeah this one is way closer than I was expecting and stuill very much in the balance from an eye scan. I'm resisting doing an early count but its damned interesting to this point.
Nemesis
@ this stage it is all square
Quote from: broodblik on 26 August, 2022, 08:14:42 AM
@ this stage it is all square
Okay that NEEDS to change. I don't want to have the final call on this one!
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 26 August, 2022, 08:25:02 AM
Quote from: broodblik on 26 August, 2022, 08:14:42 AM
@ this stage it is all square
Okay that NEEDS to change. I don't want to have the final call on this one!
By my count it's not all square - there is one vote in it. And I've checked it twice.
eeeh having finally decided on this I'm gonna resist the temptation to have count before posting my choice.
Zenith is great comics but it feels like something that could have happened outside of 2000ad. Nemesis on the other hand is such a quintessentially 2000ad strip. Yes it runs out of steam a bit at the end but those early series are just superb. Nemesis
Nemesis, just about.
Nemesis the Warlock
Last-minute surge for the warlock knocks Zenith off the number one slot. I doubt there's any coming back from that.
Ultimately, I would say the problem is that Zenith never realized the full potential of his powers - preferring to focus on his pop career. One fireball from an angry Nemesis, and that would be that.
Although Peter St. John vs Nemesis on the psychic plane would be quite the battle.
Nemesis no doubt claims to BE Peter St John, who then turns out to be Torquemada in disguise, and the whole thing shatters into a glass tetrahedron that Deadlock steps on, while grobbendonk shows up to swallow the shards.
Yes, this plot suggestion IS gibberish, isn't it.
Well, I've been staying clear of most of these contets, but there is no more 2000AD story than Nemesis - Zenith is a decently told zeitgeisty tale, but Nemesis IS 2000AD
So Nemesis the Warlock
Think this might be the most popular voting thread to date as we reach 4 pages something we've not seen before. Its hardly surprising given the quality of these two strips. Are there any votes still to come and if not has this late surge given it to Nemesis? We'll know for sure in the morning.
Short of, what, at least five people suddenly voting for Zenith, I think we can call this one!
"i mean, let's face it ... what can possibly go wrong?"
VOTING CLOSED
I'm not quite sure how to analyse what happened here, biggest vote by far, highest losing vote count. Two titans of the Prog defing explanation and they only way I can think to express is it is tio use the power of Kelis
Nemesis vs Zenith brings all the votes to the board
And they're like, my thrills better than yours
Damn right it's more zarjaz than yours
Zenith can teach you, how to make early charge
This tie brings all the votes to the board
And they're like Warlock, it's better than yours
Damn right it's better than superhero wars
Nemesis can win this as it has a late charge
Remember this is Kelis view not mine I'd kinda made my mind up to vote Zenith in case of a draw (I may have flipped when we got there!)
Nemesis the Warlock
Will be bringing his Milkshake to the Quarter-finals.