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Author Topic: To Flesh or not  (Read 1689 times)

13school

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Re: To Flesh or not
« Reply #30 on: 14 September, 2022, 02:54:50 PM »
Ah, fair enough. I guess I was always hoping for more definitive conclusions, but I guess with both Savage and Defoe the real ending is "they eventually died fighting".

IndigoPrime

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Re: To Flesh or not
« Reply #31 on: 14 September, 2022, 03:09:19 PM »
I believe that out of the original writers and artists, I’m almost the last man standing.
I mean, some of them are no longer with us. Of course, one still is: John Wagner.

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I’m not sure the significance of this creative exodus is always understood by some readers or perhaps they imagine that writers and artists are endlessly replaceable, which has always been the publishers’ fantasy. But today, it is just a fantasy. It’s also inexcusable because creators are irreplaceable.
I mean… yes? But it’s not like 2000 AD is casually tossing people aside. Some folks do move elsewhere, to get better rates or work on jobs they’ve long dreamed about (hello, Al Ewing), but it’s not like anyone is forcing Dan Abnett or Gordon Rennie (to name but two) to write for 2000 AD against their will, and they seem to have stuck around for a while. (And long may they continue to do so.)

Tu-plang

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Re: To Flesh or not
« Reply #32 on: 14 September, 2022, 03:24:50 PM »
I mean… yes? But it’s not like 2000 AD is casually tossing people aside. Some folks do move elsewhere, to get better rates or work on jobs they’ve long dreamed about (hello, Al Ewing), but it’s not like anyone is forcing Dan Abnett or Gordon Rennie (to name but two) to write for 2000 AD against their will, and they seem to have stuck around for a while. (And long may they continue to do so.)

I think his point about creators being 'endlessly replaceable' is a good one though. John Smith being unceremoniously replaced mid-story is pretty galling. The fact that there was new Strontium Dog a couple of years after Ezquerra died is worse. I used to love the way 2000AD would (with a few exceptions) let a story lie when the creators moved on. It made it feel like the comic was led by stories, rather than a commercial need to exploit IP, which is what American comics feel like. 2000AD seems to have turned its back on that ideal in recent years.

I echo someone else further up this thread: new thrills please!

Jim_Campbell

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Re: To Flesh or not
« Reply #33 on: 14 September, 2022, 03:30:20 PM »
John Smith being unceremoniously replaced mid-story is pretty galling.

Absolutely not what happened.
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Tu-plang

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Re: To Flesh or not
« Reply #34 on: 14 September, 2022, 05:12:09 PM »
Absolutely not what happened.

Well, I happily withdraw that if I got the wrong end of the stick.

IndigoPrime

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Re: To Flesh or not
« Reply #35 on: 14 September, 2022, 05:19:11 PM »
John Wagner is on record as saying that while he won’t write any more Strontium Dog, he has nothing against others doing so. But my recollection of the aforementioned strip was that it was a one-off anyway.

As for John Smith, as Jim notes this was not what occurred at all. If you’re not aware of the story, Matt said on Facebook that John Smith hadn’t delivered a script or replied to any emails for 18 months. At this point, Rebellion had the first few episodes in the can. Even so, John was given six months’ notice that someone else would be put on to the strip if he didn’t reply.

We of course later heard what transpired, and it was clearly a truly horrible time in John’s life. Still, it’s not like Matt just went “sod him”. He had the kind of patience and gave the kind of notice that is vanishingly rare in publishing and that I feel makes Rebellion rather unique in this industry. If I went dark for 18 months, I’d return to find nothing waiting for me. All bridges would be burned. By contrast, Matt is on record, multiple times, as saying he’d very happily commission John to do more work again in future.

nxylas

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Re: To Flesh or not
« Reply #36 on: 14 September, 2022, 05:53:16 PM »
There's the briefly-Bisley-but-mainly-Langley Joe Pineapples series which (as far as I know) is the final ABC Warriors-related strip. I don't think there's any more Defoe coming, and Pat himself said he feels like Savage's story has concluded with where he left it.
I was under the impression that he'd said this was going to be his last work for 2000AD to be published (though he wrote it years ago).
It was loft ladders what killed our Martin.

Funt Solo

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Re: To Flesh or not
« Reply #37 on: 14 September, 2022, 07:07:40 PM »
Quote
my stories end with me and won’t be pounced on by hungry hacks eager to make a quick buck

It's always sad and embarrassing to read that kind of nonsense from Mills, when he dips his toe into other people's hard work and repurposes it when it suits him (see The Cursed Earth). He's also boasted about making artists on his Spacewarp venture redo their work again and again until it suited him. I presume he wasn't paying for the redos.

I'm sympathetic to creators' rights, but it shouldn't be a one way street. Another creator called him out, quite gently, in Twatterland (basically a small catch yourself on) and Mills told him to "Fuck off". You can, theoretically, win an argument with "fuck off", but it's highly dependent on context, and on that occasion it was just bluntly abusive.

Mills. Some great work. An enormously problematic ego.
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Richard

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Re: To Flesh or not
« Reply #38 on: 14 September, 2022, 07:13:10 PM »
My issue with what Mills said today is that 2000AD wouldn't still exist today if Rebellion hadn't bought it.

IndigoPrime

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Re: To Flesh or not
« Reply #39 on: 14 September, 2022, 07:56:03 PM »
The Kingsleys bought 2000 AD because they loved it, when the comic would otherwise have been canned within a few years. They’ve since bought up the bulk of British comics history. Since then, they’ve brought back numerous titles, in original and reboot form. They’ve expanded how many titles they produce, to increase the number of people they can employ. I’m not naïve. I get it’s a business and rates aren’t what they once were. But Mills always strikes me as off in his particular ire for 2000 AD and especially the Rebellion incarnation.

Also, while I get his importance in the scheme of things, the way he tells it you’d think he was the sole reason for 2000 AD’s original and ongoing success. I just find it all very sad – a bit like whenever I now hear John Cleese lashing out.

Leigh S

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Re: To Flesh or not
« Reply #40 on: 14 September, 2022, 09:02:43 PM »
Despite thinking Pat has become radicalized by the "Not my Tharg" crowd (perhaps ignoring Pat's openess to said radicalizing messages), I do have a lot fo sympathy for his position.

I think British comcis are in the long run stull gong to be a tragedy predicated on the poor treatment of creators with regards to rights.  Rebellion may ahve done an invaluable job in rescuing the prog, giving us years and years more Wagner Dredd and Stront than we would otherwise have seen, that's a selfish and potentially shortsighted view.

I just think Pat wants to join Alan Moore in a principled stance on creators rights - you can argue waiting until it was less financially impactful to do that reduces the principle of that stand, but I get where he is coming from.

Theres lots of calls for new stuff here, but again that seems pretty selfish and ignores the fact that to get good new stuff, you need top level creators willing to give awy their best ideas - it just doesnt seem sustainable outside of the 2020s, let alone for another 45 years.

Rebellion have bought the intellectual property for the purposes of monetising the  past - thats not the end of as they are fans, but the model doesnt seem suitable for making new content in terms of attracting the best and keeping the best.

Abnett seems to be an admirable outlier, and in the 2000s when we had Ewing and Spurrier and Other Morrison, and you had a lot of Wagner, Grant and Mills to give continuity.

I dont want to read tC Eglingtons Flesh, or Alec Worleys ABC Warriors or Rob Williams Strontium Dog.

When Wagner leaves, unless there are enough creators who are filling those gaps with their own stuff, and not just "being hacks" as Pat would characterise it (and in some ways he isnt 100% wrong with that assessment), then that's it for me.  Creator compensation / Rights are going to surely make a difference to if you get the best creators and they are willing to give you their best material - maybe not a 100% correlation as we see with Wagners continued half retirement. And I;m sure that what Pat thinkss is a bad deal others think is a good deal.

I can;t help but look at John Sanders book and the botched attempt to buy out the comic that led to Maxwell using it as a shell company and think what might have been, not that I begrudge Rebellion for the past 20 years of continued thrills

Magnetica

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Re: To Flesh or not
« Reply #41 on: 14 September, 2022, 09:10:49 PM »
his Spacewarp venture

Yeah now that you mention it (and it’s kinda getting old doing  posts like this) it’s now more than two years since issue 1 came out and we’re still waiting for new content (an extra page in a re-issue not really counting in my book.)

So maybe trying an alternative business model is actually quite hard.(?)

IndigoPrime

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Re: To Flesh or not
« Reply #42 on: 14 September, 2022, 09:33:05 PM »
Well, exactly. People often point at Image, ignoring the tiny snag that quite a few people on that imprint make fuck-all and quite a few books make fuck-all. Also, I’m not sure that many creators are that fussed about creator rights – they mostly seem seduced by deeper pockets across the pond. (And I can’t blame them in that regard. I’ve done the same myself, when that’s been a possibility.)

pauljholden

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Re: To Flesh or not
« Reply #43 on: 14 September, 2022, 09:41:25 PM »
Flesh - except it's future humans come back to *now* who are cannibals.

That's my pitch.
La Placa Rifa

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Re: To Flesh or not
« Reply #44 on: 14 September, 2022, 09:42:59 PM »
Flesh - except it's future humans come back to *now* who are cannibals.

That's my pitch.

Tharg! Make this happen! Would be an awesome Future Shock at the very least.