To Flesh or not

[broodblik]

What is Pat's contribution to Dredd? It many cases it is almost portraited that he created Dredd.

[rogue69]

Pat and John fleshed out the very basics of what Dredd would be when putting the ideas together for what 2000AD would be like, but John and Carlos created the Dredd we all know and love

[IndigoPrime]

His Accident Man, co-created with Tony Skinner

And Martin Em— Oh.

[Funt Solo]

Yes, those lists are different, Funt, I'll give you that. But does anyone else think it all feels broadly similar? There aren't any curveballs, or things that shift the tone.

I think you've stuck onto an idea in the first place and are staying with it, despite evidence to the contrary - but then you're hardly unique in that. Unless, by "broadly similar", you mean that the comic is still an anthology called 2000 AD with an alien editor called Tharg, featuring Judge Dredd. Of course, the general format is something like 10-12 episode chunks, with 3rillers and one-offs filling the gaps. I hope we're not arguing that the pacing of Final Solution in Strontium Dog was something to be lauded?

As regards tone - Kingmaker was the first time we'd seen a LOTR::space opera mashup in the prog. The Order has a time-traveling band of historical figures fighting giant WWUUURRMMS - not seen that before. Hope is horror-noire - which you could argue that Chiaroscuro dipped its toe into, but ... c'mon ... this is pretty different, and breaks the mold on the standard format, coming in as a mini-series. Brink is longer format, different pacing, uses tons of dialogue in place of constant action, uses tons of callouts and real swearing. All new things. The Fall of Deadworld reinvented the idea of the Dark Judges for a modern audience.

It's a bit bizarre to call all of this treading water.

[Richmond Clements]

"why I am right."

[Richard]

What is Pat's contribution to Dredd? It many cases it is almost portraited that he created Dredd.

Pat vetoed Wagner's original version of Dredd, which would not have lasted very long. But it was Wagner and Carlos who came up with the later version of the character which made it to press and endured for 45 years. So I'd argue that Pat saved Dredd rather than created him.

[Art]

So what we are saying here is that Pat highly values editorial contributions...

[Dash Decent]

real swearing. All new things.

...but not necessarily better things.

[The Monarch]

ok listen to me i have a million dollar idea which could run for years!

Ok we take the cowboys and dinosaurs thing but scribble out the name old one eye and the title and change it to bloodfang!

seriously though i lost all respect for pat when he dipped his beak full in on the nft thing. couldn't care less about the man now even if he did write some of my fave stories

[13school]

That probably gives you all the ammunition you need to discount my taste, but I stand by my love of Bill.

Nah. Half the point of the Prog is that we all like different things. I think it's interesting that a reboot of sorts brought you back to the Prog,

The thing that strikes me is that it wasn't a reboot of a story from when I was reading the prog in the mid-late 80s - it was just a quirky old story I read in second hand back issues. It wasn't really a 2000AD story in my mind, and if they'd brought back a character from another comic like Battle (which I was reading before I started picking up 2000AD) I'd probably have been even more keen.

The other part is that Savage was a really strong reboot. I'm sure the recent Hook Jaw story in 2000AD has its fans, but as someone who really enjoyed the original (though I read it years after Action was gone) that particular reboot didn't really offer much of what I was looking for.

Though I doubt a series built entirely on "how can we stuff innocent people into the jaws of a killer shark" each week would suit everybody either.

[Tu-plang]

I think you've stuck onto an idea in the first place and are staying with it, despite evidence to the contrary - but then you're hardly unique in that. Unless, by "broadly similar", you mean that the comic is still an anthology called 2000 AD with an alien editor called Tharg, featuring Judge Dredd. Of course, the general format is something like 10-12 episode chunks, with 3rillers and one-offs filling the gaps. I hope we're not arguing that the pacing of Final Solution in Strontium Dog was something to be lauded?

As regards tone - Kingmaker was the first time we'd seen a LOTR::space opera mashup in the prog. The Order has a time-traveling band of historical figures fighting giant WWUUURRMMS - not seen that before. Hope is horror-noire - which you could argue that Chiaroscuro dipped its toe into, but ... c'mon ... this is pretty different, and breaks the mold on the standard format, coming in as a mini-series. Brink is longer format, different pacing, uses tons of dialogue in place of constant action, uses tons of callouts and real swearing. All new things. The Fall of Deadworld reinvented the idea of the Dark Judges for a modern audience.

It's a bit bizarre to call all of this treading water.

It's fine that we disagree. It's just my view, so there's no real matter of evidence here. I'm not convinced all those things are new or fresh. Horror noir is a pretty stale genre--that said, I like Hope. I also like Brink a lot. The others, yes, they feel like 2K on autopilot, and add little to the mix. I like my 2000ad wilder and weirder.

I loved Savage when it came out, as a really interesting take on the character, mashing up the 70s future with the 00s present, with some real moral ambiguity to it. But I'm not convinced it should have run 15 years.

[IndigoPrime]

it was Wagner and Carlos who came up with the later version of the character which made it to press and endured for 45 years. So I'd argue that Pat saved Dredd rather than created him.

Mills also did a fair bit of world-building in those early days when Dredd didn't really know what it was. But so did Wagner. I suppose that's why Mills's wording for Dredd is so careful here, although he's inferred a much greater foundational contribution at various points. (On reading the various histories, it does make sense that Wagner/Ezquerra is the creator pairing that endures. Without Ezquerra, the bonkers look of the world wouldn't have happened and nor would the pushing of the city into the far future. And Wagner set so much of the tonal foundation that made the strip what it was, along with then successfully guiding it from that point.)

So what we are saying here is that Pat highly values editorial contributions...

*applause*

seriously though i lost all respect for pat when he dipped his beak full in on the nft thing.

I did wonder about that, but his wife's blog post on how his imprint is approaching NFTs is well worth a read. NFTs are just a technology – and an embryonic one at that. They are in and of themselves not a bad thing. It's all down to how a technology is used. Assuming everything in that post comes to pass, what they're done seems fair enough to me.

Though I doubt a series built entirely on "how can we stuff innocent people into the jaws of a killer shark" each week would suit everybody either.

I liked Hookjaw because it did something different with the idea. I'm not sure how much legs a broad continuation would have had with such a one-note idea. Invasion, I think, was different. Although I find the original strip tedious to read, there's quite a lot going on that can be expanded when you're catering to a different audience. Mills successfully delivered that with Savage.

[nxylas]

I liked Hookjaw because it did something different with the idea.

But it does raise the question of how different something can be and still be called the same thing. The only real similarity between old and new Hook Jaws is that they both feature people being eaten by sharks. You might as well say that Rogue Trooper is a reboot of Strontium Dog because they both wear helmets. I didn't dislike the new Hook Jaw, I just think it should have been called something else.

[Jim_Campbell]

But it does raise the question of how different something can be and still be called the same thing. The only real similarity between old and new Hook Jaws is that they both feature people being eaten by sharks.

Well, that and the rather sly suggestion that the old Hook Jaw series exists in-continuity within the new one, having been inspired by the legends that arose from the supernatural shark beastie.

[The Legendary Shark]

Did somebody call...?