Do people think comics are more or less accepted as a serious medium now, than ten years ago?

[paulvonscott]

I know that sounds like a title for a really boring disseration, but I just wondered if some of you more media aware folk had any idea.

Over ten years ago (maybe even fifteen) comics seemed to be getting a sort of grudging respect from some quarters.  I just wondered if that was a blip.

As most readers are in their twenties and thirties, you think they would have gained some respectability by now or become more mainstream. The last media review I saw was a comics book on Late Review (can't remember it's name but it's been mentioned here).  They didn't seem very impressed, I don't think many of them were prepared to say they really liked it.

As the field is still superhero bound in the states and the teen market has died, leaving just kidies titles, I'd guess (and it is a guess) things were worse than ten years ago and not likely to get better.

Oh well, thought we could have a meaty one instead of the usual froth.

[Mudcrab]

I think they have gained more respect from literary circles, but there's still a lot of people out there that would sneer at them, but their reaction would be "You're sad, because you read comics. They're for geeks", or whatever word for non-master-race-conformist they're using these days in FHM and other wanker-mags, instead of "You're sad, because you read comics, they're for kids". Plus, people older than us (I'm 31) would still have the same attitudes unless they're one of the few people that still have an open mind when they're nearly 40.

I would say that they command more respect these days, but not a huge amount. Mostly due to the fact that they're still not really up to novel standard. That's probably unfair, cos they're a different medium. It's like poetry is to novels I suppose. Well, not really, but you know what I mean. Although I love comics, they don't have the same substance as books. I've never really read a comic story that's as good as quite a few books I've read, so there you go.

BUT...

I do think comics can do things that books can't. In the same way that visual effects in films can't be done (very well) in print. They also tend to be more thought provoking (sometimes).

Ah well, I think I've contradicted myself enough for now.

Another thing of note. In Aberdeen 10 years ago, we had Plan 9, an exellent comic shop. Now, we have another small one, can't remember the name, sorry guys(but it's by the Adelphi), and also The Forbidden Planet's just opened. Now this may well be due to the strength of idiotic merchandising, which the FP is usually full of. you know, wander around for 5 minutes and all you see is Star (yawn) Trek, Buffet the Vampire Chicken Nugget, that tired old Space saga that George wotsisname did etc etc. But essentially, it's a comic shop, so if Aberdeen can go from 1 shop to 3 then I guess the answer to your question PVS is...

YES!

[Mk13]

Guess I'm probably the most qualified to stick my oar in here, seeing as I've spent the last few years trying to get the media to cover comics.

The current situation seems to be that, while you can get a great deal of coverage for adult stuff like Preacher, The Invisibles, Sandman, etc in the highbrow and mainstream press, culturally there's nowhere near the amount of crossover there was back in the day for stuff like Tank Girl and Watchmen - i.e. you don't get so many people who don't buy comics in general, but make an exception for one regular title or the odd graphic novel.

Another telling point is that while comics are still being strip-mined for other media, especially films, the public doesn't seem to be encouraged to associate the finished movie with the source material.

I guess what we're waiting for is the next comic that's going to become the zeitgeist in the way Watchmen did, but like waiting for a Silverlink train, there's no guarantee one's ever going to turn up.

[The Amstor Computer]

My tuppence-worth...

This phenomenon seems to be more prevalent in the UK & US. Countries like France, Japan & Brazil seem to have thriving comic scenes that are widely accepted by the general populace.
A recent issue of Borderline with a feature on Brazilian comics talks about a popular Brazilian comic that sells 4 MILLION copies a week! I can't think of any US/UK comic that sells anywhere near that volume.

The problem with titles like Watchmen or Dark Knight Returns is that they've really been little more than a blip in the recent history of comics. Interest needs to be sustained beyond a single collection, or one particular strip if we want to attract & keep new readers. Unfortunately, rather than seeing a popular title as a way of promoting a range of new & diverse titles to a fresh audience, publishers tend to see it as a chance to cash in on the success of that one title by "giving readers what they want" (translated: clones of popular titles, churned out as soon as possible)

[Mk13]

You're right about foreign markets. While the 'comics are dead' refrain echoes out with depressing regularity in the UK and the US, everywhere else comics sell in similar quantities to any other mainstream medium.

One of the main reasons for this is that few other countries outside the UK/US have the 'comics are for kids' mentality, so there's no stigma attached to reading comics into your twenties and beyond.

[The Amstor Computer]

I always thought that it would be an interesting subject to investigate. The attitude toward comics seems to be such a deep-rooted cultural phenomenon in the US & UK, and it's most peculiar when so many other countries embrace comics as entertainment & as art.

No idea how you go about changing that, beyond encouraging people to take risks with mature, varied output. Violent comics, literary comics, amusing comics, sci-fi comics, fantasy comics, real-life comics, porn comics, small-press comics, independent comics, stupid comics, clever comics, experimental comics... we need all of this & more if we want to have a comics scene that isn't stagnating, with barely a handful of worthy titles.

[fraston]

wasn't all this due to the censorship that came out of the wertham thing in the 50's? didn't it apply pretty much JUST to england and the states?

[Wood]

Surely there's some kind of hope - after all, Jimmy Corrigan: Smartest Kid on Earth won a major (proper) literary prize last year.

I think that the medium is only going to develop into a proper art form if it gets outside its ghetto - superheroes, sci-fi, mighty thewed barbarians and so on. We need comics that'll push the envelope. Jimmy Corrigan doe that, and does it beautifully. Some European comics do that. Bilal's Dormant Beast, for example, is an allegory about Serbia, and adopts themes of memory, humanity, war, identity. And it's beautifully drawn. It's the kind of comic I'd almost want to be seen reading.

But I don't think that respectability's going to come 2000AD's way any time soon. I think it's been and gone, in fact.

[The Amstor Computer]

>Surely there's some kind of hope - after all,
>Jimmy Corrigan: Smartest Kid on Earth won a major >(proper) literary prize last year.

Aye, and so did Sandman many moons ago - if past experience is anything to go by, there'll be a brief explosion in coverage & a slew of "are comics growing up" articles across the media & then the whole thing will collapse :-(

>I think that the medium is only going to develop >into a proper art form if it gets outside its
>ghetto - superheroes, sci-fi, mighty thewed
>barbarians and so on.

I'd rephrase that as "UK & US comics are only going to develop..." There's some great work being done at the fringes, but the centreground is still dominated by the more hackneyed genres.

>But I don't think that respectability's going to >come 2000AD's way any time soon. I think it's
>been and gone, in fact.

I don't know... I still have hope that 2000AD can regain what was thrown away in the late 80s, but it does look unlikely. It's far better now than it has been at any time for the past decade, but if I'm being realistic, I doubt it will ever return to the days when it looked a pioneer for a fresh, new British comics scene.

[nathan]

Yes, Jimmy Corrigan.
And Gemma Bovary.
And Ghost World got loads of exposure, mostly positive, because of the success of the film.
Corrigan and Bovary were pretty much one-offs though -  neither of them are representative of a wave of similar material coming through, so I don't know if  there's enough momentum to build on their success.
Most people seem to like comics, but only once they've been turned into films.

N

[Wood]

Gemma Bovery was excellent. Have you got a copy? Mine's on the 'I can show people this' shelf :D

[nathan]

I have got a copy, shame I can't spell it.
I don't have a  "I can show people this " shelf, but it is one of my "most frequently lent to non-comic readers" books.

N

[O Lucky Stevie!]

>Surely there's some kind of hope - after all,
>Jimmy Corrigan: Smartest Kid on Earth won a major >(proper) literary prize last year.

>Aye, and so did Sandman many moons ago

ah yes, the illustrious world fantasy award. & there was such an uproar within the fantasy literary community about this that within a year the nomination rules for the (us based) awards were changed so that comics were sadly no longer eligible.

i've wet my knickers!
steven l'enfant terrible

[The Amstor Computer]

>>ah yes, the illustrious world fantasy award. & there was such an uproar within the fantasy literary community about this that within a year the nomination rules for the (us based) awards were changed so that comics were sadly no longer eligible.<<

That's the one - they were absolutely fucking furious :-D

[Mk13]

I seem to recall something similar happened with one of Otomo's books in Japan. He won some award that had previously only been given to prose work, but in this case there wasn't a mass outbreak of toy-throwing and dummy-spitting.

This probably says a lot about the difference between how comics are viewed in 'serious' SF circles in Japan and over here...