Fascism continued for Mr Whit

Thread Zero · 27 March, 2002, 04:47:31 AM

Mr Whit,
My reply is below your pasted post.

Scojo, no one is denying the form of government to which Dredd belongs doesn't have fascistic elements to it. However, if Mega-City One is truly a fascist state then please explain why:

there is no anti-Communist rhetoric or unequivocal hatred of all things Socilaist? No conformity or uniformity of its citizens? No subjugation of women? No racist ideology? No messianism, no mysticism, no allusions to a mythical past?

The examples you've given are common to all totalitarian regimes, but you say terminology is unimportant. Two words: 'National Socialism'. Sounds very left-wing, yet typical of how fascist parties, in this case the Nazi Party, use leftist phraseology to promote their own ideologies.

Mr Whit, it's important to stress we are talking hypothetically here about a FUTURE fascist regime. MC 1 bears many a classic hallmark to 20th century fascism but there is one intrinsic difference. See later.

However the similarities are:

One party state. No tolerance of any opposition.

Racist ideology. The Jews are the mutants of the future. So when you say there is no racist ideology in MC1...you are 100% wrong there.

Intolerance of religious belief. Remember the Anderson story about Christ? The Jesus Syndrome. It was in the J D Meg. Justice Dept saw Christianity as a threat.

It's reasonable to extrapolate further and presume the judges do not tolerate citizens having political beliefs. It's not in their interest for malcontents to use outdated political ideology (communism etc) as a means of challenging the status quo. Justice Dept would see all forms of political ideology as a threat.

Subjugation of women? Well maybe not, but how about subjugation of an entire population. No Democracy = subjugation.

You say no conformity of its citizens. How about every law that governs the way they live? Don't jay walk, don't spit, don't commit suicide. The list is endless. The cits entire life is one of absolute conformity. So I think you are wrong there.

The key difference is MC1 is a capitalist, fascist state. Not national socialist. Free market rules. The judges aren't interested in mythic pasts, mysticism; they are interested in power and accumulation of capital. Keeping the citizens under control and taxing them.

To conclude, MC 1 is the perfect model of a future fascist state. Devoid of outdated political ideology, Justice Dept relies on one simple thing, which has been around since the birth of mankind....

Sheer, good old fashioned bullying!

scojo

Thread Zero · 27 March, 2002, 05:04:21 AM

Er I meant to say mutants are the jews of the future!

LOL!

Isn't this subject boring now?!:O))))

scojo

Thread Zero · 27 March, 2002, 05:08:16 AM

Just in case anyone is offended, I don't mean jews are mutants! I mean the jews of the 1930's were persecuted as are the mutants in Dredd's time.

That's why they are similar.

scojo

2000AD Online · 27 March, 2002, 01:59:21 PM

I'm sure we all knew what you meant but it doesn't make your statement any less crass.

And your arguments are still tenuous at best.

nathan · 27 March, 2002, 02:28:46 PM

Mr Whit,

Is Scojo confusing fascism with national socialism now?

N

JTurner · 27 March, 2002, 04:41:35 PM

Can each of Scojo's posts be tagged with a button that, if pressed by 10+ people, erases the post?

By the way, Dredd isn't a facist (at heart), he's just doing his job, and now he seems to be giving his role in life a lot of thought.

Thread Zero · 27 March, 2002, 05:34:51 PM

Mr Whit,

Let me explain s l o w l y.

Mutants are persecuted because of their difference.

Historically, Jews and Blacks have been persecuted because of their difference. I hardly think this fact (not argument) is crass and tenuous. All prejudice is based around fear of difference.

If you Mr Whit, were born in MC 1 and your mother had a mutation, you may inherent the rogue gene(s). If you do, the judges will find you and exile you and mummy into the Cursed Earth.

If you think I'm wrong, please look back at every Dredd story ever written and tell me which mutant has been allowed to stay in the city.

So your 'no racist ideology' assertion is completely wrong.

Scojo

2000AD Online · 27 March, 2002, 08:52:29 PM

All mutants are exiled from Mega-City One regardless of race.

And yes, your comment is crass. All the more so because you're now trying to justify it. How dare you compare the contrived ostracism of a group of perfunctory characters to the very real persecution and state-sanctioned murder of millions of Jews, blacks, homosexuals, gypsies, Catholics, Jehovah's Witness, and handicapped.

Wake · 27 March, 2002, 09:05:18 PM

But one of the narrative reasons for racism against mutants in MC-1 and in Strontium Dog is there so that stories and themes which parallel with current and historical racism can be explored without mentioning a specific group.

Sci-Fi often uses this. If we are not allowed to make this comparison then either fiction has to ignore the attrocities or repeat them with the original victims. I don't see why it should have to do either.

Wake

2000AD Online · 27 March, 2002, 09:15:32 PM

The problem with using allegory is that it more often than not trivializes whatever the writer is trying to comment on. If the point being made is so important why dress it up as something else? The fact 'Star Trek' TOS did this was as much to do with the limitation of the show's format as any censorship during the '60s.

Thread Zero · 27 March, 2002, 09:41:22 PM

Mr Whit, you do talk a lot of rubbsish.:)

As Wake said, the Strontium Dog saga mirrors the persecution of the jews. See the Final Solution story.

So does that make Alan Grant wrong, immoral; a cheap opportunist?

If you hate the stories then yes. Most people love Stronty Dog.

Mutants are excluded from MC 1.

Your no racist ideology is wrong. Third time I have said that but it still stands:)

scojo

Thread Zero · 27 March, 2002, 09:42:23 PM

Rubbish too!

scojo bad typist

Wake · 27 March, 2002, 09:49:10 PM

How did you know I typed a sentence about the black/white and white/black people in Star Trek and then deleted it?

Mega-City 1 is set in the future. It would be in appropriate to deal with racism issues using blacks or jews as the targets. Either the world is portrayed as being free of racism or a sci-fi scapegoat is needed. Usually it's aliens, but in the case of 2000AD it's often mutants instead.

A bad story may trivialise the issue, but that doesn't mean a writer can't try.

What did you think of "The Big Lie"?

Wake

The Amstor Computer · 27 March, 2002, 10:14:17 PM

>>>What did you think of "The Big Lie"?<<<

That was the Necropolis-denial story, wasn't it?

To be honest, I thought it was fairly bland wish-fulfillment (who wouldn't want a twat like David Irving forced to confront his denial?) but it certainly wasn't a particularly mature or intelligent comment on the phenomena.
Not a bad story, just not a good one.

2000AD Online · 27 March, 2002, 10:48:09 PM

Allegory works fine if an author doesn't try using it to comment on whatever he or she is alluding to. Comparing attitudes, even basing specific aspects of a story on real events, will inevitable strike a chord with readers, enhancing their empathy with characters and situations. However, if a commentary is to work as a legitmate critique of, for example, the Final Solution, then a writer shouldn't trivialize it by replacing Jews with mutants.

But then I very much doubt if this was Alan Grant's intention. It was a thoughtful, entertaining comparison rather than a serious examination of the mass extermination of some six million people.