The Political Thread

[JOE SOAP]

the Civil Rights Commission even conducted a six-month investigation into reports that minorities had their votes uncounted or weren't able to vote at all, and do you know how many verifiable cases of disenfranchisement they found; ZERO, that's right, not one single case! 

Oh really:

Excerpt from the conclusion of the Civil Rights Commission Report on 2000 Florida Elections:



Former director of the Division of Elections, Ethel Baxter, in 1998, recommended to the supervisors of elections that if there was any doubt as to the accuracy of an individual's status, the voter should be allowed to vote by affidavit. Despite knowing the exclusion lists contained many errors, there is no record that the Division of Elections provided similar cautionary advice to the supervisors of elections for the 2000 presidential election. The evidence does show that some election officials decided that it further served the state's interests to capture as many names as possible on these exclusion lists.

The process by which each county verified its exclusion list was as varied and unique as the supervisors of elections themselves. Some supervisors of elections sent letters to the alleged felons and held hearings to allow them to produce evidence of their clemency status or establish they were on the list in error. Other supervisors chose not to use the exclusion list at all.

Although the Commission's record reflects that the Division of Elections is responsible for coordinating two statewide workshops annually for the supervisors of elections to ensure uniformity in the interpretation of Florida election laws, the complaints registered by some supervisors of elections suggest that there was no common understanding of the use of the exclusion lists. The Florida legislature's decision to privatize its list maintenance procedures without establishing effective clear guidance for these private efforts from the highest levels, coupled with the absence of uniform and reliable verification procedures, resulted in countless eligible voters being deprived of their right to vote.


www.usccr.gov/pubs/vote2000/report/ch5.htm



I fear that your devout partisanship clouds judgement of the facts.

[The Legendary Shark]

Voter Fraud for the Complete Idiot

Republican National Lawyers Association Vote Fraud News

Coalition Against Election Fraud

[DeFuzzed]

Thanks, Shark.

[DeFuzzed]

Thanks, Joe.

[TordelBack]

Bloody hell, reading through those links, that really is a mess. The obvious question to ask is which type of fraud (calculated disenfranchisment versus ineligible voters) distorts democracy the most - my guess is it isn't the participitaion of ineligible residents/non-citizens, who after all do live and work and have a stake in the direction of the country.  Surely reform of the registration system itself would be the first step, then an enforcement of ID.

[Frank]

Bloody hell, reading through those links, that really is a mess. The obvious question to ask is which type of fraud (calculated disenfranchisment versus ineligible voters) distorts democracy the most - my guess is it isn't the participitaion of ineligible residents/non-citizens, who after all do live and work and have a stake in the direction of the country.  Surely reform of the registration system itself would be the first step, then an enforcement of ID.

I'm always disappointed I don't leave the polling station with my thumb dyed purple. When Afghanistan's giving you lessons in civics and organisation, you've got to take a look at yourself.

[judgefloyd]

in Australia if you don't vote socialists come to your house and force you to go through gay marriage.

Probably stirring up a hornet's nest here, but the reviews for Dredd are so good I just feel like saying some stuff that is demonstrably untrue

[Beaky Smoochies]

I fear that your devout partisanship clouds judgement of the facts.

Nope, the Commission on Civil Rights is a discredited body, although I was wrong to say they found no verifiable disenfranchisement (it was a sloppy lapse in memory recollection on my part, hands up), but only insofar that they did indeed put supposed disenfranchisement into their 'report', but in truth, it was a partisan majority looking for somewhere to grind their Democratic axes, the fact that conservative members of that commission had another thing to say about that 'report' and the rather suspicious fact it was 'leaked' to liberal news agencies first., but don't take my word for it; http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2001/6/5/162803.shtml. 
Bush/Cheney won that election fair and square, whatever problems there may have been weren't intentional acts of deliberate voter fraud, and it was the Democrat lawyers not the GOP ones that picked which Floridian counties to dispute the results of.

Bush won, served two terms, and will be vindicated by history as a great-if-flawed President, get over it.

[Beaky Smoochies]

Oops, forgot to say one more thing; just because no-one owned up to, continually denied being part of, or has photos of anyone actually stuffing ballots or perpetrating actual voter fraud in 1960 doesn't mean it didn't happen Rich, it's highly amusing how people like your good self believe reports at face value of alleged (not to mention utterly unsubstantiated) voter fraud by Republicans in 2000, but have a visceral reaction to any accusation of voter fraud by Democrats in 1960, funny that...

[judgefloyd]

that's a good point.  The fact there's no evidence of something happening doesn't mean that it definitely didn't happen.  We can't prove without a doubt that JFK's election wasn't won by fraud, any more than we can prove that there isn't a tea cup in elliptical orbit around Saturn.  Do you have any evidence that the first alleged event is more likely to be true than the second?
Personally, I'm still waiting for you to substantiate your claim that Jimmy Carter is a vicious anti-semite.  So far you've offered the following:
- an irrelevant quotation, allegedly from Martin Luther King
- the fact that some of his staff resigned, allegedly because he was anti semitic - in itself this doesn't prove anything except that they may have the same loose way of defining anti-semitism as you and as....
- a newspaper column, whose author thought that Carter's anti-semitism was proved by him not mentioning the holocaust in a book about Israel and Palestine and by him saying he'd been criticised by American Jewish organisations.  The latter is true and it's not anti-Semitic of him to say it.  The former is just silly.

So do you have any actual proof of the allegation beyond the above?  Or do you just like saying silly stuff? I mention this because it's on my mind whenever I'm tempted to take you seriously.

[Beaky Smoochies]

that's a good point.  The fact there's no evidence of something happening doesn't mean that it definitely didn't happen. 

Dwight Eisenhower as well as many Illinois Republicans knew there was outright fraud perpetrated, and even encouraged Nixon to challenge the results, but Nixon - ever the gentleman - decided against it because he thought it would have been too divisive.  I'll say the same to you as I did to Rich; if it's Republicans/conservatives/Christians/Israel in the firing line, you're only too willing to believe the worst at face value, but challenge liberal icons like JFK or that nice pleasant old man Jimmy Carter (how could such a likable old gentlemen be a raging Jew-baiter underneath, oh perish the thought ) and you get the kind of third-degree you're giving me now, double standard perhaps?

Personally, I'm still waiting for you to substantiate your claim that Jimmy Carter is a vicious anti-semite. 

What exactly would you like me to show you, Carter's Hamas membership card?  If it looks, walks, and quacks like a duck, chances are it's a duck... I'm not trying to convince you, I know what Carter thinks of Israel, his words state it plainly, seventeen of own employees at his institute left in disgust over his 2007 book, which if you don't think is an anti-semitic screed, then absolutely nothing I say here will ever convince you otherwise, I've said my piece about Carter, move along dude, move along...

[Beaky Smoochies]

that's a good point.  The fact there's no evidence of something happening doesn't mean that it definitely didn't happen.  We can't prove without a doubt that JFK's election wasn't won by fraud, any more than we can prove that there isn't a tea cup in elliptical orbit around Saturn.  Do you have any evidence that the first alleged event is more likely to be true than the second?

If you insist - http://www.adversity.net/florida/Frame_Fla_Stories/Kennedy_Daley_1960.htm - if that ain't good enough, well we'll resurrect both JFK and Bill Daley from the dead via a seance and we can both ask them whether or not deliberate fraud took place in 1960, would that satisfy you then?

[judgefloyd]

you've said your piece = you've said that Jimmy Carter is a vicious anti-semite, without any evidence. Iwouldn't need to see Carter's Hamas membership card to believe that he's an anti-semite.  Just anything he's said that's in any way anti-semitic would be enough.
    Perhaps there's something in his book which is anti-semitic, in a vicious way, that you could quote?  From what  I have read of the book, it isn't anti-semitic, although it does criticize Israel.  I guess we have different definitions of anti-semitism; mine being 'hating Jewish people' and yours being 'criticizing the state of Israel in any way with which B Smoochies disagrees'.

As for your proof that JFK stole an election, do you have anything that isn't from a wing-nut right wing website?  I'm not asking for a Guardian article autographed by John Pilger and George Monbiot.  Just any media source I've ever heard of would be good.

We don't have any more evidence for the things you say than we do for the teacup orbiting Saturn, so it's not unreasonable to ask for evidence as the price of taking them seriously.  In the case of the teacup, I'd be asking questions like 'how do you know?' and 'how did it get there?'
In the case of Carter, I'm only asking for evidence that fits the definition of anti-semitism that I know of.  Is that unreasonable?
  In the case of JFK, I've never heard this before, so it's not out of order for me to wonder why I've never heard of this, why people who would have had good reason for talking about it never did (Nixon was too much of a gentleman to act legally in his own interests?  I'd want a whole bunch of proof for that). 

It's good that you're not trying to convince me, as you say, because you certainly aren't. You are having fun though and being yourself, so that's lovely.

cheers,

Floyd

[The Prodigal]

that's a good point.  The fact there's no evidence of something happening doesn't mean that it definitely didn't happen. 

Dwight Eisenhower as well as many Illinois Republicans knew there was outright fraud perpetrated, and even encouraged Nixon to challenge the results, but Nixon - ever the gentleman - decided against it because he thought it would have been too divisive.  I'll say the same to you as I did to Rich; if it's Republicans/conservatives/Christians/Israel in the firing line, you're only too willing to believe the worst at face value, but challenge liberal icons like JFK or that nice pleasant old man Jimmy Carter (how could such a likable old gentlemen be a raging Jew-baiter underneath, oh perish the thought ) and you get the kind of third-degree you're giving me now, double standard perhaps?

Personally, I'm still waiting for you to substantiate your claim that Jimmy Carter is a vicious anti-semite. 

What exactly would you like me to show you, Carter's Hamas membership card?  If it looks, walks, and quacks like a duck, chances are it's a duck... I'm not trying to convince you, I know what Carter thinks of Israel, his words state it plainly, seventeen of own employees at his institute left in disgust over his 2007 book, which if you don't think is an anti-semitic screed, then absolutely nothing I say here will ever convince you otherwise, I've said my piece about Carter, move along dude, move along...

Beaky I despair fella-I really do. I showed you a citation that showed that some jewish politicians agreed with carter in his analysis. are you seriously suggesting that they are virulent anti-semites? You may have said your piece but you ignore clear counter-arguments when they are presented to you mate.

And Beaky speaking as someone who works full time in the field of anti-racism and anti-sectarianism in Northern Ireland I can advise you that it is very unhelpful when people start to obscure the differences between people like Jimmy Carter and the genuine racist article.

That broadside aside I hope you are well mate. All the very best fella and thanks again for these spirited exchanges which are the best of craic.

[judgefloyd]

working full time in the field of anti-racism and anti-sectarianism in Northern Ireland is the most interesting job I've heard of for ages!  How's it going?