The Political Thread

[Dandontdare]

and the fact that militia commanders were bragging about shooting down a plane for a few hours before it became clear it was a passenger jet - then all the tweets were deleted and they began denying it.

[The Legendary Shark]

Not forgetting that the Ukranian government absolutely does not drop cluster-bombs in civilian areas.
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m.hrw.org/news/2015/01/15/test-new-ukraine-s-commitment-reform
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Complexities of the situation in Ukraine:  www.forbes.com/sites/stratfor/2014/03/11/ukraines-increasing-polarization-and-the-western-challenge/
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If the US is so desperate to prove Russian forces are invading Ukraine, where's their proof? They have really good spy satellites and aircraft, don't they? Or are the Russians using highly advanced invisible tanks? There were satellite images released on 28/08/14 by NATO, so I thought I'd track them down.
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I started here,  www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/press_releases.htm?query=Ukraine&date_from=20.08.2014&date_to=30.08.2014 and searched "Ukraine" between 20/08/14 and 30/08/14 and got two results, neither of them relating to satellite images. Hmmm, no doubt a simple oversight or I'm on the wrong NATO page.
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So I went to the NATO home page ( www.nato.int/ ) which I can only get to go back as far as 02/09/14 - maybe you folks with proper pcs can look back further.
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Okay, so let's look for a report of the report and choose one at random ( www.businessinsider.com/nato-satellite-photo-evidence-russia-lying-about-ukraine-2014-8?IR=T ). Hurrah! Satellite images of something. So, following the source link I got; usnato.tumblr.com/post/96003086125/new-satellite-imagery-exposes-russian-combat# but this page belongs to the United States Mission to NATO and is not the source of the initial press release.
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A link from that page ( aco.nato.int/new-satellite-imagery-exposes-russian-combat-troops-inside-ukraine.aspx ), titled "SHAPE Public Affairs" leads to an Allied Command Operations page, which turns out not to be the source of these images either. The ACO is responsible for the planning and execution of NATO operations, so I'm getting close to the source now - but still no link to the original press release. Grrr.
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Okay, I'll pick another site at random reporting the press release in the hopes of getting to the source: www.stopfake.org/en/fake-the-russian-army-did-not-invade-ukraine/ And, hurrah, a link to the NATO website: www.nato.int/cps/en/natolive/news_112103.htm
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404 - page cannot be found.
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Okay then, the BBC - their report is bound to contain a link to source, right? Wrong. In fact, this article barely mentions the satellite images at all. m.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28972878
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One last try, then. The images were supplied by www.digitalglobe.com/ Can't find any mention of the images here ( https://www.digitalglobe.com/resources/case-studies ) even under the Defense & Intelligence heading and I can't get the search box to work. And what is DigitalGlobe? A private satellite imaging company the Wiki page of which lists the US Department of Defense as one of its clients but not NATO. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/DigitalGlobe
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Anyway, my excuse is that doing this kind of hunting on my 'phone is a pain in the arse and I've had enough. Surely there must be more satellite proof than this handful of hard to track down images from nearly six months ago but I can't be arsed looking for it.
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Maybe you* can find the source or the original press release, or maybe you can't be arsed either.
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*This is the "Royal You" - as in any you, not a specific you. Oh, you know what I mean...

[ZenArcade]

Thats because it is another crock of horse shit whereby we get to pay to have our proxies kill people. They aren't being killed for any noble moral reason; simply because we have to punish those pesky Russians for screwing us around in our efforts to completely destabilize any functioning governmental entity in the fertile crescent. Btw the Russians are cynical pricks as well, but at least they have the excuse of being controlled by a post communist ex KGB oligarchy. Z

[The Legendary Shark]

Well, I don't know. Just because I can't find the images doesn't mean they aren't there - and, in all honesty, absence of evidence isn't necessarily evidence of absence.
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My point is that if this evidence was so compelling, where is it, who presented it and why isn't there more?

[Theblazeuk]

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=Ukraine+tanks&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&gws_rd=cr&ei=G7bbVPuHNaKe7gam8YDoBA#q=Ukraine+russian+tanks


Tis not too hard.

[ZenArcade]

It is a TU 80 tank with a support echelon. It is a proxy war. There are huge amounts of this material extant in the Ukraine and doubtless there are just as many Russian 'technical advisors' as there are NATO personnel present in this morass. I just blanch at devining any 'right or wrong'/'good guy- bad guy' in this situation. Z

[The Legendary Shark]

Just found this on the downed airliner: www.globalresearch.ca/evidence-is-now-conclusive-two-ukrainian-government-fighter-jets-shot-down-malaysian-airlines-mh17-it-was-not-a-buk-surface-to-air-missile/5394814
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TheBlaze - which result am I looking at?

[The Legendary Shark]

DP - sorry.

[ZenArcade]

The airliner was probably targeted by a Ukranian separatist anti aircraft artillery system controlled by a rudimentary system function orientated crew. The evidence does show catastrophic destruction by an air burst close proximity warhead. But again this is beside the point...Z

[The Legendary Shark]

That's not what the article says.

[ZenArcade]

I know Shark.....but being realistic I think it was on the balance of probability shot down by the 'pro Russian' faction. Z

[ZenArcade]

I hasten to add: balance of probability would not lead to a decision in this instance: beyond all reasonable doubt is the only show in town. This is a conversation in an extremly non expert sense and one I am kind of loathe to be too deeply engaged in. Z

[The Legendary Shark]

I don't. They'd have nothing to gain from it and the evidence doesn't seem to stack up. I think it was the Ukranian government, possibly with US/NATO covert help, who did it to demonise Russia and the rebels.
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But you're right, there's no way to know for sure at the moment. It could just as easily have been the Chinese, the Belgians or Dr Doom.
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[ZenArcade]

Possibly so, this is a cynical, amoral, middenheap. I am alas beyond any ' theological' support or 'mind' in this artificial construct. My mind and heart is with the women and children in Lugansk, Miapol, Homs, Mosul and others in day by day list of once beautiful, historic and noteworthy places which feature in an increasingly lengthening devestation and loss list. All paid for by us. Z

[Professor Bear]

Surprised that no-one from Ireland has waded into the multiple early-morning arrests of water protesters in their own homes by what the Guards and politicians are saying is a completely above board round of perfectly legal and reasonable arrests of - among others - 16 year-old children, and in no way an attempt to make non-payers afraid to be in their own homes if they don't toe the line.  On top of the government refusing to prosecute Irish tax evaders named in the HSBC leak, it's good to see the whole revolution thing to chuck that oppressive government out of the country worked out in the long run.  99 years and things come full circle.  Ah well.

Joking aside, if that happened up here in the North* there'd be riots and blood in the street**, and I'm amazed that people are taking it laying down and haven't strung Kenny up by his balls already.



* Which of course it did - many times.
** And there was.