To Flesh or not

[13school]

I occasionally miss that manic energy 2000AD had once upon a time. I know it was largely due to the very specific interests and abilities of the handful of writers behind 90% of the prog back then, and it's not like today's prog is bland by any stretch. But Mills (and Smith, now he's been mentioned) did bring to the prog something you couldn't get anywhere else, even if it didn't always click or wasn't to everyone's taste.

"Many many new ideas" is at the core of what I want to see from 2000AD - though in the light of the previously discussed trade-off between creator's rights and the stability of a publisher who owns your IP (and the risks that go with it), I understand that a torrent of non-stop invention may not always be possible.

What's your opinion on the all-ages progs?

I like them! They're not really for me - even as a kid my tastes were more along the lines of James Herbert's The Rats (I would have loved Hook Jaw if I'd known Action existed) - but I really appreciate the way they're used as a testing ground for new concepts. Pandora Perfect is a definite winner in my book.

I'm sure my "more new ideas" views stem in part from feeling that a lot of the current progs don't quite click for me - if I loved every story I'd hardly want them to be replaced by new ones - but I really do think that invention and new ideas should be a core part of what 2000AD does, above and beyond Future Shocks and 3rillers.

All of which runs against my earlier statement about wanting Savage to have a "proper" ending, but the more I think about it the more it seems obvious that the proper ending for Bill Savage is simply getting gunned down in the middle of yet another fight.

It's already been established that the Volgan War goes for decades into his future (and is won by robots), so it's not like he's going to "win" in any real sense.

[Jim_Campbell]

but I really do think that invention and new ideas should be a core part of what 2000AD does, above and beyond Future Shocks and 3rillers.

I'm not sure I recognise this depiction of 2000AD as resting on its laurels and only cycling through long-standing IP whilst rarely bringing in something new.

So far this year, in addition to sundry 3rillers, Terror Tales and Future Shocks, we've had appearances by:

Hope
Skip Tracer
Brink
Intestinauts
The Order
The Out
Kingmaker
Proteus Vex
Saphir

All of which are new, or certainly new-ish, thrills, plus fairly different takes on existing properties in the form of Jaegir and Fiends of the Eastern Front.

In the first prog of 2022, Dredd was the only 'classic' thrill in the line-up, the rest of the issue comprising of Proteus Vex, The Order, Kingmaker and The Out.

[broodblik]

I agree with Jim here the prog has now more ongoing series than the golden age of the 80s. The prog feels fresh and has the right balance between new and old

[Dark Jimbo]

A big zombie crossover event is about ten years too late I'm afraid :/

A violent satire about the royal family would kill right now.

Dinosity was 28 years ago...!

[Jim_Campbell]

I agree with Jim here the prog has now more ongoing series than the golden age of the 80s. The prog feels fresh and has the right balance between new and old

I also think it's impressive to note the range of tone and genre in that list — none of those thrills is remotely like the others, and none of them would easily pigeonhole into a slot that might have been occupied by a 'classic' thrill in the past (ie: none of them is basically Rogue Trooper or Strontium Dog with the serial numbers filed off).

I understand that pretty much everything on that list has its detractors as well fans, but it certainly doesn't look like a title resting on its laurels to me.

[broodblik]

The only real "negative" thing with the current prog is sometimes the wait between thrills, I am looking at you Brass Sun (and also Helium)

[13school]

but I really do think that invention and new ideas should be a core part of what 2000AD does, above and beyond Future Shocks and 3rillers.

I'm not sure I recognise this depiction of 2000AD as resting on its laurels and only cycling through long-standing IP whilst rarely bringing in something new.

So far this year, in addition to sundry 3rillers, Terror Tales and Future Shocks, we've had appearances by:

Hope
Skip Tracer
Brink
Intestinauts
The Order
The Out
Kingmaker
Proteus Vex
Saphir

All of which are new, or certainly new-ish, thrills, plus fairly different takes on existing properties in the form of Jaegir and Fiends of the Eastern Front.

In the first prog of 2022, Dredd was the only 'classic' thrill in the line-up, the rest of the issue comprising of Proteus Vex, The Order, Kingmaker and The Out.

I guess it depends on your definition of "new-ish" - a lot of those series have been around for four years or more.

I'm definitely not calling for a revival of thrills from the 80s, or even the 00s, and I certainly wouldn't argue that the prog isn't innovating... maybe just that the rate of innovation outside of the Regened issues has slowed a little.

As I said earlier, not everything in the last few years has clicked with me - though from that list I've enjoyed The Out, Proteus Vex and Intestinauts, and I save Brink up to read in large chunks - and 200 progs where it can feel like the okay is sometimes outweighing the good is a long time.

But I fully understand that this is entirely a matter of personal taste, and that my desire for 2000AD to introduce more new series is directly linked to my not completely being on board with a number of the current ones.

[Jim_Campbell]

I'm definitely not calling for a revival of thrills from the 80s, or even the 00s, and I certainly wouldn't argue that the prog isn't innovating... maybe just that the rate of innovation outside of the Regened issues has slowed a little.

I'm still not sure I understand. Slowed, in comparison to when? In the 'golden age', strips like Rogue Trooper, Strontium Dog, Robo Hunter and Ace Trucking would sit in the prog for runs of anything up to six months at a time. Pat Mills strips (Nemesis, Slaine) tended to rotate into the gaps for shorter runs while the one of the others 'rested', but I don't think you'd find a nine-month run from pretty much any time in the 80s with the variety we've seen just this year.

It's fine if you don't like 'em, I'm just not sure the argument that 2000AD isn't innovating holds up. If anything, people seem to argue that there are too many stories on the roster, which leads to longer gaps between series of a specific strip while everything else gets its turn.

Edit to add: I'm not trying to browbeat you on this... honest! I just have this feeling that sometimes people's affection for the Prog of Yesteryear can cloud their perception of what it was, in comparison to the current incarnation.

[Proudhuff]

Flesh - except it's future humans come back to *now* who are cannibals.

That's my pitch.

Tharg! Make this happen! Would be an awesome Future Shock at the very least.

If only there was an artist that was involved ;-)

[Magnetica]

I just have this feeling that sometimes people's affection for the Prog of Yesteryear can cloud their perception of what it was, in comparison to the current incarnation.

Yes that's definitely a thing. I have re-read some classics that I have held up as top ten thrills, only to find they were only ok. Ace Trucking I'm looking at you. Others did stand up e.g. Zenith.

It's really hard, I think to provide an objective comparison between early 2000AD and modern 2000AD, as on the whole the story telling methodology has change completely (massive generalisation I know).

I will definitely agree with you Jim that 2000AD continues to innovate - there have been a huge number of new strips over the last five years, and in the five years before that.

[Jim_Campbell]

It's really hard, I think to provide an objective comparison between early 2000AD and modern 2000AD, as on the whole the story telling methodology has change completely (massive generalisation I know).

You're right about that. There's a definite eye on the trades in the modern incarnation, which simply weren't a much of thing in The Olden Times. This leads to a tendency to schedule stories in discrete, packagable blocks (or subsets thereof) as opposed to the semi-resident status of strips like Rogue Trooper, with a constantly-rotating team of artists to keep the episodes coming week after week.

(And, obviously, very few artists are capable of bashing out five pages a week for months at a time, in the manner of Gibson, Ezquerra and Belardinelli on Robo-Hunter, Strontium Dog and Ace Trucking/Blackhawk/Meltdown Man respectively.)

[Funt Solo]

The experience of reading something in weekly chunks (in its original format) vs. reading it in one sitting is also different. Try binge-watching something like Kitchen Nightmares and the format cues start to become very apparent (e.g. gratuitous topless moment, flouncing off down the street moment). Or, if it's the US version, you start to suffer from PTSD.

I can't think of which things right now, but some 2000 AD stories did that thing where the first panel of the new episode was mostly a repeat of the last panel of the previous. Doesn't scan well in a collected format.

[Magnetica]

Also even long running series like Meltdown Man were largely episodic, even if heading in a general direction. And it seemed to wrap quite quickly. Another example is Rogue Trooper - yes he was chasing the Traitor General, but that didn't stop it being largely episodic or being a series of short stories. Compare that to Jaegir - totally different.

[Robin Low]

It's fine if you don't like 'em, I'm just not sure the argument that 2000AD isn't innovating holds up. If anything, people seem to argue that there are too many stories on the roster, which leads to longer gaps between series of a specific strip while everything else gets its turn.

I think Jim's in the right here. (He usually is, except when he's disagreeing with me, of course.)

I'm not connecting with the Prog at all right now, and in all honesty probably haven't been for years. Even Dredds that are clearly good stories are just not resonating with me. I went digital this year and I scroll through half the Prog when I can be bothered to download a few issues and catch up. I'm very seriously considering not renewing the subscription.

But ultimately, I think the problem is largely me. I hesitate to say it's age, because there are people as old or older than me who are still enjoying the Prog, but there again it really could be that simple.

Or perhaps it's the other way round. I've not outgrown 2000AD; 2000AD has outgrown me.


Regards,

Robin

[Funt Solo]

I tend to read in chunks - the last prog I read was 2296. Currently addicted to Dysmantle, so that's a time sink.