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Darkie's Mob

Started by milstar, 29 April, 2021, 10:06:41 PM

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paddykafka

For an authentic, compelling and yes, by times amusing, account of life as an ordinary foot-soldier in Burma during the war, I would highly recommend George MacDonald Fraser's "Quartered Safe Out Here".

https://www.complete-review.com/reviews/frasergm/qsafe.htm


Barrington Boots

Really good post Pictsy

A bit like a discussion on the film thread where I've had the experience of recommending an old film only for someone to point out it's a bit dodgy in some of it's attitudes or depictions, it's important that we actually put some thought into our stance on stuff like this.

I grew up on Battle and find myself often caught out when I look at stuff like Darkies Mob with a critical eye. I have great affection for it because of the time I read it, so I just think "yeah, it's brilliant" - only to realise that a lot of the more problematic elements didn't even appear on my radar on a cursory recollection because it for a white kid reading comics back then it was normal: they were racist, brutal, patriarchal (indeed often entirely bereft of female characters). That's not just war comics either.

So how to react to stuff like that now? I think DM is still worth reading - it's got a great story and the art is immense but like Cosh says, I'm not the one being racially abused in the dialogue or art so I need to listen to the voices of those who are and then read it with that in mind. FWIW I don't generally think books / comics / films like this should be edited to remove content: seeing and understanding it and the context it was produced in strengthens change - but I'm conscious that even that's written from my position of privilege. If you do track it down Milstar I hope you enjoy it, but that it also makes you think.
You're a dark horse, Boots.

JayzusB.Christ

I've only read it in the Megazine, and either didn't realise or had forgotten it was censored there.  It's very easy to see how Bad Company came about - someone in charge must have said 'Darkie's Mob was great, John.  Can you do it again, but in space?'  I don't know how well versed Pete Milligan was in Battle comics, but even the [spoiler]twist at the end[/spoiler] of the first book of BC is pretty much a sci-fi version of the [spoiler]end of DM[/spoiler].
"Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest"

milstar

Quote from: Colin YNWA on 30 April, 2021, 11:15:33 AM
Quote from: milstar on 30 April, 2021, 11:01:28 AM
Quote from: milstar on 30 April, 2021, 09:50:54 AM
Anyway, off to Amazon.

Temporarily out of stock.
Oh well, gotta quell my hunger for Battle stories with Invasion 1984.

There appears to be copies at Forbidden Planet

https://forbiddenplanet.com/49579-darkies-mob-hardcover-titan-edition/

Ah... Can't do. I have to use Amazon only.
Reyt, you lot. Shut up, belt up, 'n if ye can't see t' bloody exit, ye must be bloody blind.

milstar

As for the topic: well, I sometimes enjoy trashy things for the trash sake. I watched recently Death Wish 3 and it definitely is not the movie with meaningful take on gang violence and vigilantism, and like every Death Wish, it has a rape scene in it, but again, don't expect some thought provoking subject matter.

A lot of fictional works, much celebrated, are seen dated now. So I think it's valid when someone defenses it with "it was the times". Because that's how it was. In the war specifically, hardly you'd save a dear words for your enemy, who probably thinks about you the same. I read Ennis' Adventures in the Rifle Brigade and it's devilishly entertaining stuff, full of Ennis' quirkness and dark humor. And the soldiers call Germans (Nazis) - Jerry, Fritz, Kraut, as they did in real life. In Vietnam, it was changed to "gook, yellow bastard etc". Then again, there is always the question of how much of real life should be incorporated into a work of a fiction, comic book or otherwise. And you have to balance the two. If anybody read The Shadow Blood and Judgement by Howard Chaykin, you could see overt sexist tones, even for a comic released in 1986. But Chaykin said he just tried to do the justice to the character whose mindset is still in the 1930s. But I think it's important to have these works as we could observe them catching the zeitgeist of times they were set or are about.

Btw, I couldn't possibly imagine that my thread would lead to such thought - provoking discussion :)
Reyt, you lot. Shut up, belt up, 'n if ye can't see t' bloody exit, ye must be bloody blind.

Colin YNWA

Quote from: milstar on 30 April, 2021, 01:27:56 PM
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 30 April, 2021, 11:15:33 AM
Quote from: milstar on 30 April, 2021, 11:01:28 AM
Quote from: milstar on 30 April, 2021, 09:50:54 AM
Anyway, off to Amazon.

Temporarily out of stock.
Oh well, gotta quell my hunger for Battle stories with Invasion 1984.

Bezos has out you under his spell BREAK FREE, BREAK FREE

There appears to be copies at Forbidden Planet

https://forbiddenplanet.com/49579-darkies-mob-hardcover-titan-edition/

Ah... Can't do. I have to use Amazon only.

pictsy

Quote from: milstar on 30 April, 2021, 01:49:18 PM
A lot of fictional works, much celebrated, are seen dated now. So I think it's valid when someone defenses it with "it was the times". Because that's how it was.

Defending a piece of work because it is outdated and thus of it's time can be legitimate.  For example, the writing style of Darkie's Mob is of it's time. 

Specifically the racist elements, no.  Firstly, defending the racist elements as being of their time is defending the racist elements.  As in, defending racism. 

Secondly, it gives a pass to racism of the past because it was the past and they didn't know any better.  One is ignoring all the voices of that time that suffered from and were against racism.  Anti-racism and civil right campaigners have been at it for centuries now.  For those that were ignorant, it's still not defendable.

Thirdly, it's not of it's time, it's right now as well.  Racism hasn't ended.  This is still a problem we face.  It is still relevant and it is still current. 

I'm going to assume you didn't mean specifically the racist elements, but I do feel it important to really stress this point.

QuoteIn the war specifically, hardly you'd save a dear words for your enemy, who probably thinks about you the same. I read Ennis' Adventures in the Rifle Brigade and it's devilishly entertaining stuff, full of Ennis' quirkness and dark humor. And the soldiers call Germans (Nazis) - Jerry, Fritz, Kraut, as they did in real life. In Vietnam, it was changed to "gook, yellow bastard etc". Then again, there is always the question of how much of real life should be incorporated into a work of a fiction, comic book or otherwise. And you have to balance the two. If anybody read The Shadow Blood and Judgement by Howard Chaykin, you could see overt sexist tones, even for a comic released in 1986. But Chaykin said he just tried to do the justice to the character whose mindset is still in the 1930s. But I think it's important to have these works as we could observe them catching the zeitgeist of times they were set or are about.

Sure, like I said, if you're going to do something with it, it might have value and could be justified.

From what I saw of DM and what has been said so far, I feel confident that DM is just using racist language and imagery in... an exploitative manner, I guess.  The racism in DM can't be excused as realistic because it doesn't hold up in context.  It wasn't the intent of the author, it is not required for the tone of the story (re no swearing), it is a comic that was targeted towards children etc. 

Charley's War was brought up (which I have read quite a bit of).  That is not a realistic depiction of WWI despite drawing upon many real elements.  It is hyperbolic.  Nevertheless, the real elements are included in service to a point.  It's a long time since I read it, but I don't remember the depictions of German soldiers being racist caricatures, either.  I think the depictions were more sympathetic in places.

I also neglected to point out that "Darkie" is a racial slur that is still being used.  So there's that, as well.

BPP

Firstly, defending the racist elements as being of their time is defending the racist elements.  As in, defending racism.

Profoundly no. Stripping a dialogue about the past context of the content of its modern context is a totalising logic. Nobody is defending racism either now or then.
If I'd known it was harmless I would have killed it myself.

http://futureshockd.wordpress.com/

http://twitter.com/#!/FutureShockd

pictsy

Quote from: BPP on 01 May, 2021, 08:31:57 AM
Firstly, defending the racist elements as being of their time is defending the racist elements.  As in, defending racism.

Profoundly no.
Actually yes, defending racism is defending racism.  I worry that you didn't see the obvious point to what I wrote there.  I thought I was being condescending and it probably didn't need pointing out.  Well done for proving me wrong in that regard, at the very least.

Quote
Stripping a dialogue about the past context of the content of its modern context is a totalising logic.
What?  This is incoherent.  I have no idea what point is being addressed here.  Neither do I see the point trying to be made.  Stripping dialogue?  Are you referring to the edited version DM?  Are you suggesting that DM should have racist dialogue and caricatures because fiction about the past shouldn't be written in modern contexts?  Either way, you are grossly wrong and I've already stated why.

Quote
Nobody is defending racism either now or then.
As for this.  At first I thought you meant on the forum and in this discussion specifically.  But you write "now or then".  Very general statement.  Nobody is defending racism either now or then.  Then how is there the racism NOW and THEN?  Do you think people do it by accident?  Yes, people did defend racism and they still do.  Fucking hell, I can barely begin with how awful your sentence here is.

If you did mean specifically on the forum then I didn't make that accusation so your point is moot, regardless.

I have read and re-read this post countless times to see if I'm getting the wrong impression from it and every time I look at it from a different angle (which is hard because it looks like a fart of a thought) it just gets worse.  I really thought I was preaching to choir, but apparently not.  Your post, BPP, is really gross.  The Forum deserves better.

Now I concede I may be doing you wrong here and I'm not going to apologise for it because I found your post highly distasteful and offensive in what is messily being implied by it.  I have no shame in calling out this kind of garbage, whether it was your intent or not.

BPP

Quote from: pictsy on 01 May, 2021, 11:04:42 AM
Quote from: BPP on 01 May, 2021, 08:31:57 AM
Firstly, defending the racist elements as being of their time is defending the racist elements.  As in, defending racism.

Profoundly no.
Actually yes, defending racism is defending racism.  I worry that you didn't see the obvious point to what I wrote there.  I thought I was being condescending and it probably didn't need pointing out.  Well done for proving me wrong in that regard, at the very least.

Quote
Stripping a dialogue about the past context of the content of its modern context is a totalising logic.
What?  This is incoherent.  I have no idea what point is being addressed here.  Neither do I see the point trying to be made.  Stripping dialogue?  Are you referring to the edited version DM?  Are you suggesting that DM should have racist dialogue and caricatures because fiction about the past shouldn't be written in modern contexts?  Either way, you are grossly wrong and I've already stated why.

Quote
Nobody is defending racism either now or then.
As for this.  At first I thought you meant on the forum and in this discussion specifically.  But you write "now or then".  Very general statement.  Nobody is defending racism either now or then.  Then how is there the racism NOW and THEN?  Do you think people do it by accident?  Yes, people did defend racism and they still do.  Fucking hell, I can barely begin with how awful your sentence here is.

If you did mean specifically on the forum then I didn't make that accusation so your point is moot, regardless.

I have read and re-read this post countless times to see if I'm getting the wrong impression from it and every time I look at it from a different angle (which is hard because it looks like a fart of a thought) it just gets worse.  I really thought I was preaching to choir, but apparently not.  Your post, BPP, is really gross.  The Forum deserves better.

Now I concede I may be doing you wrong here and I'm not going to apologise for it because I found your post highly distasteful and offensive in what is messily being implied by it.  I have no shame in calling out this kind of garbage, whether it was your intent or not.

Deliberate misreading - check
Insults - check.
Patronising- check
Faux intellectual superiority - check
Supposed moral superiority -check.
Internet grandstanding - check.

I'm oot. We can agree racism is wrong but we can disagree as to whether you're a healthy person to discuss with.

I'm out. Rather reread Nemesis than your guff.
If I'd known it was harmless I would have killed it myself.

http://futureshockd.wordpress.com/

http://twitter.com/#!/FutureShockd

pictsy

 :o ::)

I have no shame in aggressively calling out a post that seems to me to have gross implications.  I never imagined my efforts would amount to a monumental waste of time through such dismissiveness and disengagement. 

I guess I can't win them all.

milstar

#26
Quote from: pictsy on 30 April, 2021, 03:43:46 PM
Quote from: milstar on 30 April, 2021, 01:49:18 PM
A lot of fictional works, much celebrated, are seen dated now. So I think it's valid when someone defenses it with "it was the times". Because that's how it was.

Defending a piece of work because it is outdated and thus of it's time can be legitimate.  For example, the writing style of Darkie's Mob is of it's time. 

Specifically the racist elements, no.  Firstly, defending the racist elements as being of their time is defending the racist elements.  As in, defending racism. 

Secondly, it gives a pass to racism of the past because it was the past and they didn't know any better.  One is ignoring all the voices of that time that suffered from and were against racism.  Anti-racism and civil right campaigners have been at it for centuries now.  For those that were ignorant, it's still not defendable.

Thirdly, it's not of it's time, it's right now as well.  Racism hasn't ended.  This is still a problem we face.  It is still relevant and it is still current. 

I'm going to assume you didn't mean specifically the racist elements, but I do feel it important to really stress this point.

QuoteIn the war specifically, hardly you'd save a dear words for your enemy, who probably thinks about you the same. I read Ennis' Adventures in the Rifle Brigade and it's devilishly entertaining stuff, full of Ennis' quirkness and dark humor. And the soldiers call Germans (Nazis) - Jerry, Fritz, Kraut, as they did in real life. In Vietnam, it was changed to "gook, yellow bastard etc". Then again, there is always the question of how much of real life should be incorporated into a work of a fiction, comic book or otherwise. And you have to balance the two. If anybody read The Shadow Blood and Judgement by Howard Chaykin, you could see overt sexist tones, even for a comic released in 1986. But Chaykin said he just tried to do the justice to the character whose mindset is still in the 1930s. But I think it's important to have these works as we could observe them catching the zeitgeist of times they were set or are about.

Sure, like I said, if you're going to do something with it, it might have value and could be justified.

From what I saw of DM and what has been said so far, I feel confident that DM is just using racist language and imagery in... an exploitative manner, I guess.  The racism in DM can't be excused as realistic because it doesn't hold up in context.  It wasn't the intent of the author, it is not required for the tone of the story (re no swearing), it is a comic that was targeted towards children etc. 

Charley's War was brought up (which I have read quite a bit of).  That is not a realistic depiction of WWI despite drawing upon many real elements.  It is hyperbolic.  Nevertheless, the real elements are included in service to a point.  It's a long time since I read it, but I don't remember the depictions of German soldiers being racist caricatures, either.  I think the depictions were more sympathetic in places.

I also neglected to point out that "Darkie" is a racial slur that is still being used.  So there's that, as well.

Well, I must thoroughly disagree here. I won't waste my words on Darkie's Mob, because I never read it, so I can't speak much about that (I'll do it once I read it). What I can say is that for the comic being sold to boys (albeit judging by its content, it's not appropriate material for them), let that be a testament of the times it had been made. For better or worse. One thing I am sure, I don't think Wagner intended for it to be KKK racist. Nor do I believe it's exploitative material. Wagner never would do that. Besides, I don't see anyone claiming here that racist views expressed, also express the views of themselves.

Outside that and in the world of art in general, I must bluntly stress that art as such shouldn't give you moral lessons. Nor it is the purpose of it. On such questions, the audience must reach those answers alone. Art should reflect life. And if any such works incite audience's reaction, that either could be good or bad. But speaking about bad, if anyone for a second considers killing someone in cold blood because he has seen it in a movie, then do you know how many movies would be banned from existence today? Same with racism. One fictional work shouldn't be accountable for the actions of people. Words don't hurt people. People hurt people. That's why I am against censorship, of any kind. And I firmly believe that not a single word should be banished from existence. I don't think it ever happened in the history of mankind, though.
Now, a lot of works of art are controversial in that regard. Either for being very much of its time or paying homage for the specific time it has been set. So, that's why we have Birth of a Nation, which was probably the first masterpiece of cinema, despite its subject matter. Thematically not really, but costumes, camerawork, editing, overall production values - all cutting edge stuff for 1915. And then you could get away with the production of such film. Today, I couldn't even imagine it. Should we impose a permanent ban on the movie? No. Had Tatantino's Django Unchained had copious amount of N word? It did. But that's how people talked then. And the notorious fact is that humanity is fucked up and is capable for all sorts of fucked up stuff. Ofcourse, these will get explored in music, comic books, cinema, etc. I mean, I don't like that Holocaust happened, but it did and I can't do anything about it. But at least we have movies like Schindler's List, as a warning.

As for civil rights movement progression, they were still pretty much ineffective in the 1970s. Those were very gullible time and you could get away with anything. And the 1980s were even worse and much less PC than the 1970s.
Reyt, you lot. Shut up, belt up, 'n if ye can't see t' bloody exit, ye must be bloody blind.

Bad City Blue

The new comic "Blazer" has a strip in the wartime jungle and used the word "Jap". This caused a bit of a stir and of course there were similar arguments made that it was a word that would have been used, it's just a shortening of "Japanese" and the like.

I delved a bit deeper, and it appears that this is particularly offensive as after the war it was still used purely as a racist insult, and Japanese civilians were horrendously treated with this word right at the centre.

Stuff liek Jerry and Kraut is still in Commando comics, as they aren't seen as racist, mainly because they don't upset Germans - more a nickname than insult. Yes, I realize that when in the mouth of an aggressive racist they ARE racist, but that's another story.

SO Darkies Mob is a special case, as it deals with the Japanese, a race of people who genuinely suffered due to their country's wartime actions. Prior to researching wartime slang for different nationalities I had no idea - now I do.
WIth regards to DM, I personally don't have a problem with it, but if racial slurs were edited out professionally it wouldn't damage the experience for me, and new readers wouldn't know anyway.
Writer of SENTINEL, the best little indie out there

pictsy

Quote from: milstar on 01 May, 2021, 02:01:09 PM
Well, I must thoroughly disagree here. I won't waste my words on Darkie's Mob, because I never read it, so I can't speak much about that (I'll do it once I read it). What I can say is that for the comic being sold to boys (albeit judging by its content, it's not appropriate material for them), let that be a testament of the times it had been made. For better or worse. One thing I am sure, I don't think Wagner intended for it to be KKK racist. Nor do I believe it's exploitative material. Wagner never would do that. Besides, I don't see anyone claiming here that racist views expressed, also express the views of themselves.

Outside that and in the world of art in general, I must bluntly stress that art as such shouldn't give you moral lessons. Nor it is the purpose of it. On such questions, the audience must reach those answers alone. Art should reflect life. And if any such works incite audience's reaction, that either could be good or bad. But speaking about bad, if anyone for a second considers killing someone in cold blood because he has seen it in a movie, then do you know how many movies would be banned from existence today? Same with racism. One fictional work shouldn't be accountable for the actions of people. Words don't hurt people. People hurt people. That's why I am against censorship, of any kind. And I firmly believe that not a single word should be banished from existence. I don't think it ever happened in the history of mankind, though.
Now, a lot of works of art are controversial in that regard. Either for being very much of its time or paying homage for the specific time it has been set. So, that's why we have Birth of a Nation, which was probably the first masterpiece of cinema, despite its subject matter. Thematically not really, but costumes, camerawork, editing, overall production values - all cutting edge stuff for 1915. And then you could get away with the production of such film. Today, I couldn't even imagine it. Should we impose a permanent ban on the movie? No. Had Tatantino's Django Unchained had copious amount of N word? It did. But that's how people talked then. And the notorious fact is that humanity is fucked up and is capable for all sorts of fucked up stuff. Ofcourse, these will get explored in music, comic books, cinema, etc. I mean, I don't like that Holocaust happened, but it did and I can't do anything about it. But at least we have movies like Schindler's List, as a warning.

As for civil rights movement progression, they were still pretty much ineffective in the 1970s. Those were very gullible time and you could get away with anything. And the 1980s were even worse and much less PC than the 1970s.

I think we've got crossed wires here.  My points have largely been about how media is talked about and how we, the audience, shouldn't fail to acknowledge or be dismissive of problematic elements.  Something I think you and most others (I don't feel I can say everyone) agree with.  Maybe it was largely a point that didn't need making, yet I felt the need anyway.

I've already wasted most of today trying to be composed in the face of a serious topic that's becoming increasingly relevant and uncomfortable for me.  I would have liked to have addressed some additional points you made, milstar and really clarify what I'm trying to get across. 

I don't have the luxury of not being affected by bigotry in media, real life and online and I find BPP's posts so troubling that I feel I should be very cautious about talking openly and frankly about these issues.  Even debating with myself whether I should post this and not just let it go without comment.  So I don't think I'll be continuing with this discussion.

I hope you find enjoyment in Darkie's Mob if you can track down a copy, Milstar.

Woolly

I'm not the smartest of them, but I'll try and give my take on this:

If you're going to use racially offensive slurs and characterisations in a fictional work, then you need to make sure it's called out as such and portrayed as racist within the work itself.
Darkie's Mob doesn't do this which essentially means it's using racism for entertainment purposes, and regardless of the time it was created it just doesn't wash anymore.

(I don't for a second believe that John Wagner is a racist, or was trying to be racist when writing DM. Should add that!)