The Political Thread

[Satanist]

[Old Tankie]

Yep! That's me!

[ZenArcade]

Did that cloud blow over from Europe OT? Z

[Old Tankie]

I don't know Z, my sense of direction was never any good! But I'll happily admit to raging against the storm!! I'll get these old legs of mine working again some day. 

[TordelBack]

Cumulonimbys.

[JayzusB.Christ]

Oh, well played, sir.

[Old Tankie]

I had to look that up! And I am still not sure if it is an insult although I'm guessing it is! 

[TordelBack]

I had to look that up! And I am still not sure if it is an insult although I'm guessing it is! 

Not one aimed at you, Tankie.  Amusing myself at the expense of the human condition.

[Old Tankie]

No problem!!

[Rogue Earthlet]

Just putting my view across. Like many others here, a lot of what is currently happening in the EU causes me some dismay, but (there's always a but) it is infinatly preferable to what lies in wait for us outside if it. Z

I was a europhile but have had doubts for a while, and then my mind was made up by the stomping on Greece. How Ireland, Portugal and Spain were treated was bad enough, but with Greece the EU stepped outside of humanity. Google Greek debt and you'll see there were concerns about the countries finances in the nineties, yet German and French banks kept lending it more. Why? Because the loans were short term, so as long as Greece repaid banks made a profit and it was bonuses for bankers. When Greek debt reached the stage where it couldn't repay, the banks demanded the EU give them the money, from tax payers, and then chase Greece for the debt. The EU should have told the banks to get lost, but instead it gave them the cash, then told Greece it must repay, and make brutal spending cuts and raise taxes. People are dying in Greece because of lack of medical care, thanks to cuts to their health service. Syriza had given help to those who couldn't pay their mortgage, and last December the EU demanded this help was withdrawn so the banks could repossess their homes.
That's the ugly beast the EU has become, and I want nothing more to do with it, so I'll be voting to leave.

[JayzusB.Christ]

How Ireland, Portugal and Spain were treated was bad enough, but with Greece the EU stepped outside of humanity.

I don't blame the EU in Ireland's case.  Our banks went mental and our government gleefully assisted them.  We're paying back their debts now.

[The Legendary Shark]

Iceland's imprisoning the bankers who demolished their economy. The EU's worshipping the bankers who did the same to Ireland, Portugal, Greece, Cyprus (whose prime minister was basically made to wait in another room while bankers carved his country up), etc.
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Rescue the EU from the bankers, then it might be worth something. Until then, it's just a monstrous financial rape engine.

[TordelBack]

The whole financial crisis thing is too complex to even begin discussing on my tea break except to note that the UK isn't in the Eurozone, so many of those ECB issues don't directly apply to supporting a Brexit (feck me what a word) - but I do agree that Greece has been treated very shabbily indeed, even while accepting that many of its underlying problems were its own fault (as with Ireland). However I'd argue that things could well be worse without the EU (if not the Euro) - Greece at the sole mercy of the international money markets would be in a much worse position now.

[IndigoPrime]

That's the ugly beast the EU has become, and I want nothing more to do with it, so I'll be voting to leave.

Are you going to vote to leave the UK, too? Our government demanded significantly more from Iceland than legally entitled to, because councils and individuals had stupidly sunk ridiculous amounts of money into Icesave without performing anything remotely close to due diligence. And then the Tories are now busy building on Labour's using taxpayer money to bail out British banks by selling everything that's now state-owned at a massive loss to their mates, adding to nationwide cuts that leave the poorest and most needy in appalling situations.

I agree that the EU acted abhorrently towards Greece, but to leave purely on that basis would be like quitting the EU because they cut disability benefits, while our own government's doing much the same. And given the other protections we'll probably lose (human and worker rights), it's a dangerous gamble.

Iceland's imprisoning the bankers who demolished their economy.

Most of them haven't been imprisoned. Those that have mostly got sentences that won't affect them significantly. Many are under basic house arrest. The Icelandic economy remains in free-fall, with the kind of capital controls you'd more expect of somewhere like Cuba.

I was there over the holidays, and intended to close my account there (from when I lived in Reykjavik). I was told I could not transfer money to my UK account without an invoice. In other words, no transfers allowed unless you have a bill to pay—and even then, being able to transfer funds would not be guaranteed. Buying foreign currency also still has major restrictions. (My workaround, fortunately, was to close the account and simultaneously convert the money to Sterling, but that was only possible because of the relatively low balance that remained.)

Family in Iceland have been hit hard. Most of the country has. Yet people here continue to perpetuate the myth that the country is doing fabulously, when it really isn't. (In fact, many of the same people who caused the mess are now in government. And, amazingly, the ex-PM is now EiC of the country's one remaining major newspaper.)

I love Iceland, but the reality is very different from the PR, and the various reposted crap spreading across social networks like an untruth virus. Some of the best reading on this is What is really going on in Iceland, which is from 2012. His piece on the trainwreck regarding the crowdsourced constitution is worth a read. Also, notably, the current Icelandic government killed stone-dead EU ascension talks without giving people a say, thereby wasting even more money. (The general consensus from Icelanders was that they probably wouldn't have voted yes, but would have liked to complete talks and get the offer first. My reading is that the main stumbling blocks were in fact currency and fishing—and even the former's something few Icelanders care about these days, which wouldn't be surprising when you consider the country's attempt to adopt the Canadian dollar at one point.)

[The Legendary Shark]

I agree there's a lot of bullshit flying about concerning Iceland. The latest pile is that the Icelandic government has forgiven all debts (mortgages etc.). I really wanted this to be true but further investigation led me to conclude that it is, sadly, bollocks. It seems to source back to a 2008 article about how a debt jubilee/debt forgiveness could work in a country like Iceland. It's a neat idea, but too many of the 0.01% would lose out - and, of course, that would never be tolerated.
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At least the Icelandic courts seem to be trying to do something about the bankers, or at least give the appearance of being seen to be trying, but the rest of the world seems to think it's okay for a small elite to hold entire countries to ransom over pretend money.
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At some point we're going to have to decide what's more important, life or loot. At the moment, most governments think it's loot - so that's what they serve. I don't think that's acceptable and, furthermore, while the current mindset exists, I don't think any government adhering to it is legitimate - whether that be a local parish council or the U.N. They're all illegitimate.