The Political Thread

[The Legendary Shark]

Thanks, chaps - some very interesting posts. It seems to me, ostensibly anyway, nothing more than a continuation of the ancient Great Game of Nations and Powers; all jostling for position.

Yet, there seems to be an increasing tendency around the world towards a dissatisfaction with politics in general and democracy specifically. As if the currency of democracy is being eroded.

If only bodies like the UN, World Bank and the WHO could get on with running things properly, feeding the children and saving the planet without being held back by all these petty political squabbles, incompetence and corruption...

Fertile ground for Stalins, SPECTREs and Sith Lords. And also for Gandhis, Bonds and Skywalkers, fortunately.

[Professor Bear]

Given that moar patriots voted for Trump than last time, despite the evidence of their own eyes, one might speculate that putinative interference continued.

I fear this can be more easily explained by Facebook selling targeted ads and Twitter being Twitter.  Capitalism, baybay.

[Tjm86]

Basically, Putin did to America what America does to South America, albeit via different methods.
His methods are - allegedly - to cause tension in as many disparate groups as possible, ...  if it's true this is some pretty intersectional thinking, and seems to be working out great for him.

I think this is quite a valid point.  I've always found Pratchett's quote from Good Omens about government conspiracy to be quite a good touchstone. 

Is it a case of cunning manipulation or is it slowly simmering forces as populations grow and resources become scarcer?  Are we just seeing a handful of canny individuals surfing these waves for their own benefit (Farage, I'm looking at you here ...)?

Certainly the last few years have given the yanks food for thought but I think the same is true for us too.  Mind you it looks like Johnson's been pasted pretty well.  Seen their latest moniker for him?  "The Shapeshifter."  Priceless!

[Funt Solo]

Quite a lot of celebration over here in Washington state, with friends and family and neighbors. Every second house in our neighborhood has a BLM poster in the window - so it's a left-leaning locale.

We watched Kamala Harris speak lastnight, and my daughter (who's eight) was enraptured with her words - as Kamala spoke about the difficulties of dealing with Covid, and the struggles we've endured. Watching her have that effect was really powerful. Mini-Solo then got bored during Biden's long-winded stump speech of victory.

And that's a really important part of this - a (relatively young) black, female VP can speak to people in a way that the old white men can't.

We walked downtown yesterday with our "Be Kind" placard - which was made four years ago for a protest march against Trump. We got lots of car honks and comments from folk. It's not a sign that has any indication on it of party affiliation, but it's interesting, of course, that nobody on Earth would assume it was a message of support for the incumbent president or his administration. Why are so many people keen to affiliate with a movement that, at it's core, is about being terribly unkind?

Or, to borrow from James Baldwin: "If I'm not the n****r here and you invented him ... then you've got to find out why. And the future of the country depends on that..."

---

Regarding the wider question of democracy - I've always felt like some form of proportional representation (importantly, somehow non-binary) would benefit the social and political landscape of the US and of the UK. There's a real problem with a mindset that is determined to always win, and for that win to mean domination. (We can argue that the Senate and the House, or the Commons and Lords, aim to provide that - but we can see in practice that they fail to do so.)

[JayzusB.Christ]

Basically, Putin did to America what America does to South America, albeit via different methods.
His methods are - allegedly - to cause tension in as many disparate groups as possible, from socialists to Brexiteers to video gamers to comic book fans, thus normalising aggression and preventing dialectic and the formation of cohesive or effective movements.
To his credit, if it's true this is some pretty intersectional thinking, and seems to be working out great for him.

I know I'm getting old and out of touch, but now I'm not sure if YOU'RE being sarcastic, Prof.  In any case, I think that looking at the Brexit shambles may have strengthened the resolve of us remaining EU countries even more; and it's nice to know that the new US President won't see us as a 'foe'. 

I don't want Britain to suffer. My mother is English and most of my family live in England, and most of YOU are British.  But I want the EU to succeed more. To quote Zenith, I live there.


EDIT - Funt, I've been listening to BBC reports from Washington. Sounds like an incredible atmosphere over there.

[The Legendary Shark]

I think we need to figure out what government is actually for, what purpose it serves, and go from there.

[The Legendary Shark]

EDIT - Funt, I've been listening to BBC reports from Washington. Sounds like an incredible atmosphere over there.

Sounds like when Obama won, and look at his record. He expanded drone strikes against terrorists - some of them American nationals, and all that. If memory serves, Obama was the first US president to spend his entire term of office at war. People forget that Obama was a war president. Trump's a war president. Now, with the War on Terror still underway, this new guy's going to be a war president too.

It seems to be the new normal. Hidden behind first Nobel Peace Prize morality, next by toxic buffoonery and now by a steady hand. War doesn't seem related, somehow, a separate new normal - a rather profitable one, by all accounts.

[JayzusB.Christ]

So... I'm a tad ignorant as regards American politics - in fact I've learned a fair bit about the system from this election - but these lawsuits beginning tomorrow are hardly going anywhere, are they?

Also... sorry, Shark, I appreciate you've toned it down a lot, but I'm not getting into another argument about Libertarian Anarchism vs Statism.  Maybe someone else will.

[TordelBack]

Given that moar patriots voted for Trump than last time, despite the evidence of their own eyes, one might speculate that putinative interference continued.

I fear this can be more easily explained by Facebook selling targeted ads and Twitter being Twitter.  Capitalism, baybay.

I'm sure, but equally it'd be crazy to think that foreign powers wouldn't stick their oar in where convenient. Does anyone believe the US doesn't do whatever it thinks it can get away with, as it does in every other theatre, and will continue to do so under Joe?

[Funt Solo]

The only thing I can say about complaining about Obama (the, frankly odd, argument that they're all a bunch of bastards therefore it's better to do nothing) in the context of the current Biden / Harris win is that that idea is well debunked in this article: Why Perfection Is The Enemy Of Done.

It makes use of some of my favorite quotes from far finer minds than mine:

Voltaire, the French writer, said, "The best is the enemy of the good." Confucius said, "Better a diamond with a flaw than a pebble without." And, of course, there's Shakespeare: "Striving to better, oft we mar what's well."

---

As regards asking what government is actually for, that seems disingenuous, or perhaps just lacking in some basic research. I don't need to tell you - anyone can just look that up. Here's a short and partial definition: "Government is a means by which organizational policies are enforced, as well as a mechanism for determining policy". That's from Wikipedia.

[Funt Solo]

So... I'm a tad ignorant as regards American politics - in fact I've learned a fair bit about the system from this election - but these lawsuits beginning tomorrow are hardly going anywhere, are they?

There's an extreme right pipe-dream that the fully loaded Supreme Court will somehow step in and declare Trump the victor by over-turning the counts in several states, each of which requires its own legal case (because there's not a centralized election body to take to court over the ballots).

Most brains are seeing that as an extreme scenario because, well, Biden just won the election. Realpolitik, and all that.

(The only worry for me is that Trumpet's trumpeting will cause actual violence, or that if that edge-case scenario came to pass there would be widespread civil discord. I think he wants that. I think a lot of the mad, Qanon twerps want that. Violent wet dreams all over the place out in the back country. Not enough to do.)

[JamesC]

https://twitter.com/celsiusgs/status/1325279501132177408?s=20

[JayzusB.Christ]

So... I'm a tad ignorant as regards American politics - in fact I've learned a fair bit about the system from this election - but these lawsuits beginning tomorrow are hardly going anywhere, are they?

There's an extreme right pipe-dream that the fully loaded Supreme Court will somehow step in and declare Trump the victor by over-turning the counts in several states, each of which requires its own legal case (because there's not a centralized election body to take to court over the ballots).

Most brains are seeing that as an extreme scenario because, well, Biden just won the election. Realpolitik, and all that.

(The only worry for me is that Trumpet's trumpeting will cause actual violence, or that if that edge-case scenario came to pass there would be widespread civil discord. I think he wants that. I think a lot of the mad, Qanon twerps want that. Violent wet dreams all over the place out in the back country. Not enough to do.)

Cheers Funt, I'm glad to hear that Giuliani's bleatings are just bleatings, and he can piss off and pull his microphone to his heart's content.  It was the Court that Trump Built that had me doubtful.

I really hope the Great Oaf's barely-disguised call to arms lead nowhere.  Stay safe.

[sheridan]

Sounds like when Obama won, and look at his record. He expanded drone strikes against terrorists - some of them American nationals, and all that. If memory serves, Obama was the first US president to spend his entire term of office at war. People forget that Obama was a war president.

How do you figure that?  A quick look suggests that 1985 was the last year that the United States wasn't openly involved in a war.  It was, however, involved in the Cold War plus activities in the Honduras and Nicaragua before, during and after that year.  I'm not sure what a 'war president' is exactly - as far as I know Obama didn't declare any wars, just continued those that others had begun.


p.s. not that I'm holding Obama up on a particular pedestal, but he's the best of the bunch I've known in my lifetime (all I know about Carter I learned from 2000AD back progs, Ronald Reagan was the first president I remembered).

[broodblik]