The Political Thread

[Trout]

The bailiffs and others involved in your case, including the council employee who was named on this thread, are people with lives, doing their jobs and trying to get by in difficult times. THeir conduct may not make them likeable but I do, at least, respect the fact they have jobs, pay taxes (presumably) and, in their own way, participate in society.

[Professor Bear]

Participating in society isn't necessarily a good thing if that participation involves circumventing established rules meant to make society function better, like using police officers as bailiffs, encouraging them to illegally enter homes, or to fit up harmless bampots.

That's all very well in theory, but the truth is that if 51% of the people (who bother to participate) vote for a party who pledges to, say, ban fox hunting then 49% of the people have no right to hunt foxes, even if they've been doing it for centuries..
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Again, that's not law, it's mob rule.

It's also Michael Ironside's ethics class at the start of Starship Troopers when he explains that democracy is no different than fascism because they both rely on playing the numbers game and using force.

Seeing as you're not using your vote, Sharky, can I have it?  I'll give you a tenner for it, and the walk to the polling booth will do you and the dog good.

[Frank]

the truth is that if 51% of the people (who bother to participate) vote for a party who pledges to, say, ban fox hunting then 49% of the people have no right to hunt foxes, even if they've been doing it for centuries..
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Again, that's not law, it's mob rule.

No, that party would have to propose a bill, which would become an act, which would both be voted upon (and amended) by all members of both houses of parliament. I'm pretty sure 100% of the fox community would vote for such legislation if it came down to a referendum, or do they not count?

[Grugz]

That means that if the government passes a law requiring me to kill my neighbour I would be just as guilty for refusing to comply with that law as I would be for killing my neighbour under my own authority.
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as most of his neighbours are ducks at the moment can you murder a couple for me please? I like a bit of hoisin sauce! yum yum!

[Buttonman]

I'm worried about Shark's Granny, neighbours and everyone over 60 - seems like he has designs on them all!

I'm all for a principled stand over the perceived injustice of the licence fee but that support wanes entirely if it doesn't involve boycotting all of the BBC's output. If not, are you not just a parasite watching Dr Who on everyone else's ticket? If everyone took the same stand there would be no Dr Who for anyone.

The social contract that exists between us all dictates we must obey the laws of the land - if we don't like them we can votes for representatives who hold the same views. If they don't get in the majority rules. If we all refused to pay taxes there would be no NHS, welfare state etc.

To be honest I don't see why the government doesn't do away with all compulsory, but self bought taxes such as the licence fee, road tax and third party motor insurance and just add it to income tax. Less bureaucracy, less collection cost and less illegality.

You could argue 'Well I don't drive a car' but to steal Jim's point I don't have kids but still pay for schools and am happy to do so.

[ZenArcade]

Good to see the Kurds are helping the potential genocide candidates off that mountain. A small light in an extremly dark part of the world.

[maryanddavid]

Good to see the Kurds are helping the potential genocide candidates off that mountain. A small light in an extremly dark part of the world.

I'm not one for this thread much, but with the Arab Spring turning into a horror story, Gaza/Israel, Ukraine, and Iraq, horrific times for those that live in those countries. For our countries faults and problems, at least we can live relatively safe and peaceful lives.

[The Legendary Shark]

It's a safe country if you've got money. If you haven't, you have to either use the false money the government borrows from the banksters or get your door stove in BY THE POLICE and thrown out onto the street, your possessions destroyed.
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I would be against me too if it weren't for the fact that I got turfed out of social housing, which is meant for those who can't afford a private tenancy or to buy their own property, because I couldn't afford it. If the council's so strapped for cash, why doesn't it claim 'benefits' instead of making me do it?
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Society is an excellent thing, so long as one can afford to be a part of it and is willing to turn a blind eye to the crimes of the 'authorities'. I, and many like me, have been all but expelled from the very society we were born into because we have few resources. This must change.

[Buttonman]

I'd guess that you'd know more about your own circumstances than the council would.

If you don't want to play by society's rules that's fine, but you can't complain when things don't go your way. I don't like working 9-5 and paying 50% of my hard earned in taxes but that's the price of being part of a civilised society where the NHS, benefits system amongst other things are taken for granted by those who decry the system that keeps them fed and warm.

[Trout]

What BM said. I fucking hate filling in forms but I claimed housing benefit when I had no other option.

[TordelBack]

Doing my best not to get sucked back into this veritable Afghanistan of a thread, but like all the great powers, failing in my turn.  I think that Sharky is perfectly aware of the contradictions in his position:  continuing to reject on principle the supports and present structures of the system he wants to change may make the task infinitely harder, but that doesn't mean that he loses the right to assert his beliefs, demand basic decency from his fellows, and to complain loudly when it is found lacking. 

I'd never ask him to stop questioning and arguing and resisting, but again I'll say that I wish that he would accept that the basis on which he opposes the system and the nature of its authority is far too broad to permit any meaningful exchange in the matter of T. L. Shark vs. Local Agents of Global Hegemony, and instead play along with the silly games of local bureaucracy so that he is in a better position to agitate and inspire, rather than expending his energies struggling with ongoing daily adversity.  By insisting on his own interpretations of law and the specifics of financial transfers he's speaking a language that his opponent cannot (allow itself to) understand or respond to, and that makes all attempts to persuade or outwit it hopeless.

In trying to stop a runaway train, would you be more effective standing in front of it or getting back into the cab and pulling some levers?

[Hawkmumbler]

402 fucking pages of this. We are all masochists.

[I, Cosh]

402 fucking pages of this. We are all masochists.

Just change the number of posts per page and it's only 242.

[Proudhuff]

402 fucking pages of this. We are all masochists.

Just change the number of posts per page and it's only 242.

and that's how he gets jobs in Swisserland

[The Legendary Shark]

it's not about not paying but how much, what for and what with. I'm sure you're all sick of me going on about how we are forced to use privately created money, which is orders of magnitude more expensive than using publically created money, but that's at the core of my beef with the government.
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So long as we continue to faff about with this primitive monetary economy then I'm perfectly willing to join in - but I will never agree with people being Forced to pay more than they can afford for Necessities. Nor do I support the idea that Everything must be run for profit. They've already sold large chunks of things that belonged to the people; the mines, public transport, bits of the NHS, police and other services, waste collection, infrastructure (why, for example, do you have to pay BT for line rental when you already own the lines, or a standing charge for water when you already own all the pipes?) and the Post Office. Hell, I think they're even planning to sell off the motorways - but only After all those miles of purple conduits (which I'm told contain detectors so that motorists can be charged by the mile) have been installed at our expense. I think it's obscene.
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Profit from luxuries by all means but not from money, social housing, basic foodstuffs, water, basic energy, social benefits, public transport, justice or healthcare and suchlike. So long as huge chunks of our taxes go towards private corporate profits then I'm going to pay as little as possible.
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To benderise Henry David Thoreau, I want a system that I'm morally happy to support. The current cesspit of a system is not it, so I won't support it willingly.