This is the News!

[Funt Solo]

A C4 report presented by Paraic O'Brien: West Bank settler expansion: a year on the frontline

[Funt Solo]

You might get some dust in your eye from this short BBC report: Eight-year-old boy born with one hand gets Spider-Man bionic arm

[The Legendary Shark]

CNN saw what's inside aid packs destined for Gaza, and investigates why they're not reaching civilians

[The Legendary Shark]

[Lorenzo]

Only that's quite obviously bollox as the UN stopped counting in Ukraine 2 years ago and no-one has set foot in Sudan or Ethiopia. The figures from Gaza are also "compiled" by the "Ministry of Health in Gaza" which is a front for Hamas. Lots of dead - yes; believable, trustworthy data - no.

[Funt Solo]

Only that's quite obviously bollox as the UN stopped counting in Ukraine 2 years ago and no-one has set foot in Sudan or Ethiopia. The figures from Gaza are also "compiled" by the "Ministry of Health in Gaza" which is a front for Hamas. Lots of dead - yes; believable, trustworthy data - no.

Lorenzo, Lorenzo, Lorenzo, Lorenzo, Lorenzo, Lorenzo, Lorenzo, Lorenzo. Lorenzo!

It's difficult to get accurate figures of the number of civilians killed in a war zone, yes indeed. It's difficult to measure trust in organizations that have vested interests, yes indeed. (That would be a high level of mistrust in the Israeli military, the Israeli government, the US government, the Egyptian government, Hamas etc.)

What do you think the motivation of the UNRWA is in posting such a graphic? I think it's to highlight that a lot of innocent children are being killed in the Gaza ghetto, by a brutal military and political regime whose long and short-term motives (judged by their actions) seem to be ... not honorable. There are things they could do - based on evidence gathered by neutral news organizations - to alleviate the suffering. They're choosing instead to bomb and starve out the ghetto they've created.

Even the Israeli's (army and government) would admit at this point that they've killed way, way more civilians than were killed during the Hamas assault that triggered this brutal response. (They'd blame Hamas for all the deaths, but they wouldn't deny them at this stage.)

Surely you're not saying you welcome the deaths? Lorenzo? You're not saying you welcome the deaths, are you? Lorenzo?

[Funt Solo]

as the UN stopped counting in Ukraine 2 years ago

Oh, and no, they didn't.

[The Legendary Shark]

Despite Biden's doubts, humanitarian agencies consider Gaza toll reliable. (Reuters.)

Even Israeli Intelligence Has Deemed Hamas-Run Health Ministry's Death Toll Figures Generally Accurate (Vice.)

[Lorenzo]

That's quite a wall of text there, Funt. You trying to emulate your Nemesis?

Surely you're not saying you welcome the deaths? Lorenzo? You're not saying you welcome the deaths, are you? Lorenzo?

Absurd. Yes. Obviously, that is exactly what I'm saying. /Sarcasm. I quite clearly said I was dancing on their graves and not merely pointing out the spurious nature of the data. There have been 10's of thousands killed in Ethiopia, Sudan and Ukraine, etc, etc. but this isn't an emotional pissing contest to see who can pile the bodies highest. Concern for human rights shouldn't be limited to those that shout the loudest on social f*cking media.

[Funt Solo]

But pointing out the number of civilian deaths in Gaza doesn't assume that we should ignore the other conflicts you mention, except for you saying that. And the numbers aren't spurious, as you claimed. So that's why I jumped in. You gave an aggressive response to Shark's post, and it's not clear why.

[The Legendary Shark]

I would speculate on two reasons. Firstly, this is a horrible subject. It's hard to look at, it's hard to think about, it's hard to remain unemotional on and it's impossible to justify. It's hard to believe that our national and international bodies don't want to stop this, so maybe they have access to better figures that indicate things aren't as bad as doom-mongers like me proclaim. Trust me, I'd like to believe that these figures are wildly inflated as well or that the whole tragedy is just an AI generated media psi-op designed to keep us all scared and in our places. That might make for a good Netflix series but it's unlikely to be the truth. Maybe Lorenzo, being (like the rest of us) a good person at heart, simply doesn't believe that humans can be so coldly vicious to one another because he couldn't act that way himself, or even imagine himself doing so. It's a perfectly understandable reason to reply as he did.

Secondly, there seems to be a media battle over whether sharing such information is antisemitic or not, which is another very uncomfortable topic. This is not to say that Lorenzo accused me of this or anything else, he did not, just that the current philosophical climate may have influenced his post in that great care has to be taken separating propaganda, bigotry, and facts. In this sense, he is right to question the figures and to not take anything at face value - a crime of which I am somewhat guilty here. While that graphic came from the TwiXter feed of Philippe Lazzarini, the Commissioner-General of UNRWA, and was brought to my attention by an alternative media source I believe in, I haven't actually gone and checked the source data for myself. This is me guilty of passing on received knowledge based entirely on other people's opinions. The figures will not be accurate in either column for obvious reasons, but I have a fair amount of confidence that these are at least ball-park figures and not antisemitic at all. Inherently anti-Zionist, yes, but nothing else.

In the final panel, this is a very emotional subject and it's easy to allow emotion to drive our words, as you and I both know all to well, Funty me old china, and it's fine for emotion to play a part - it's the fuel for every campaign - but fuel is no good without an engine, and that engine is our rational half. Our control structures rely too much on manipulating emotions to  the detriment of rationality. As with most things, a balance is required.

TL;DR - I welcome Lorenzo's engagement in the subject.

[Lorenzo]

I really don't have the time/inclination to get into long internet discussions. So, apologies for the drive by comments/handgrenade, but:

Secondly, there seems to be a media battle over whether sharing such information is antisemitic or not, which is another very uncomfortable topic. This is not to say that Lorenzo accused me of this or anything else, he did not, just that the current philosophical climate may have influenced his post in that great care has to be taken separating propaganda, bigotry, and facts. In this sense, he is right to question the figures and to not take anything at face value...

This, exactly. There is a large body of people who are using data like this for exactly that reason. Where were all of these Pro-Palestine types, wearing there freshly ironed keffiyeh, when Yarmouk refugee camp was levelled (for example).

The figures will not be accurate in either column for obvious reasons

Which was entirely my point.

[Funt Solo]

Where were all of these Pro-Palestine types, wearing there freshly ironed keffiyeh, when Yarmouk refugee camp was levelled (for example)

So people shouldn't try and highlight civilians being killed now because they weren't involved in highlighting them in the past? That doesn't really follow.

Ultimately, you're just some random on the Internet shouting down a graph produced by the UN. They have the clear motive of trying to highlight an injustice so that humanity might see its way to stopping more of the same. Your motive for vociferously attacking the information remains opaque. Is it just casual cynicism?

[Lorenzo]

Where were all of these Pro-Palestine types, wearing there freshly ironed keffiyeh, when Yarmouk refugee camp was levelled (for example)

So people shouldn't try and highlight civilians being killed now because they weren't involved in highlighting them in the past? That doesn't really follow.

As The Shark intimated above, some of the loudest protesters now are merely anti-semites and that is the only reason they are invested in this. Just as the rest of the Arab world did f. all during the Syrian civil war. It's disingenuous.

Ultimately, you're just some random on the Internet...

Ha! I'm sure you're not "some random" but this is where I step out.

[The Legendary Shark]

Lorenzo makes an excellent point. Where were people like me while all this was going on in the past?

Personally I didn't really understand the situation, thinking it was some ancient and complicated religious feud I simply wasn't informed enough to comment on beyond the most basic blanket condemnations of human-on-human violence. However, my understanding deepened as a result of the October 7th attacks. While the mainstream media proceeded from the assumption that the current situation basically began on October 7th, the better alternative media reports set the current events in the context of the last seventy five years (and more) and suddenly it didn't seem so complicated any more. Israel has been stealing Palestine for nearly a century, village by village, farm by farm, home by home. That's the core of the problem, religion's just the excuse. Now I understand. Now I see the barbarity of it. Now I feel "qualified" to comment and justified in feeling anger towards those enabling or excusing this failure of our collective humanity.

More importantly, where was the government or the BBC? Everything I've learned comes from publicly available and ostensibly reliable sources (Amnesty International, the UN, etc.) documenting horrific events stretching back decades. How were journalists and politicians not condemning this history of atrocities all along? How is it that, on the contrary, anyone who did criticise the situation ended up being viciously harangued or fired or smeared as a racist?

The sickening way our government is responding makes me feel like one of the characters in Mitchell & Webb's excellent Are we the Baddies? sketch.

So yeah, I am late to this party - but I'm here now and, as you all know, I always bring a bit of punch...