The Political Thread

[Beaky Smoochies]

Nobody else is trying to tell folk what they can say or what they can read. Kiefer Sutherland and Murdoch's Fox network used 24 as a vehicle to articulate a particular world view at a crucial point in The War On Terror; I didn't really watch it. Phoning the Ford motor company to demand they withdrew their cringeworthy sponsorship of the show, so nobody who liked it was allowed to make their own mind up- as 1MMoms advocate- seems mental.

You clearly have never watched 24, bikini kill dude, that show has more white American corporate villains than Middle Eastern and/or ethnic ones, the writing staff had more Democrats than Republicans in it, Kiefer Sutherland is a self-confessed "socialist" in his political views, and the show was created before 9/11 took place... 24 is no more an advocation of the Bush Doctrine than 007 is a comment on British foreign policy, you really need to stop reading those kooky left-wing websites, with due and sincere respect...

isn't it odd that when christians complain about losing their rights, its usually the right to treat someone else as a second class citizen. 

... or the right to liberty of conscience...

I think it also needs to be highlighted that not every Christian subscribes to an anti-gay stance. For me one of the tragedies of this kind of debate is that it highlights peoples often correct perceptions of people like me. We God-botherers have some serious issues at times.  In this instance I think it may be quite justifiable to shoot the messenger-we've screwed the message up to a criminal degree.

So you think, respectfully asking, that when the Almighty condemns that particular behavior, He has issues, do you?  And Christians are supposed to be salt and light to the world, not to compromise with it, and as far as supposedly screwing up the message, which message is that precisely, we are to love the sinner but hate the sin, and if some get confused about that, they need to take it up with the Almighty, it really is that simple... I LOVE this thread, it really is a stimulating one, if only the rest of the interweb was this engaging and thoroughly decent in the discussion of emotive issues, bravo...

[M.I.K.]

The Almighty also condemns polyester shirts.

(Leviticus 19:19)

'Nuff said.

[Frank]

Kiefer Sutherland is a self-confessed "socialist" in his political views, and the show was created before 9/11 took place ... you really need to stop reading those kooky left-wing websites, with due and sincere respect...

Tony Blair identified himself as a socialist. The link I provided (CLICK) was to a dry academic paper by a Professor of Law, not the Huffington Post.

[The Prodigal]

Nobody else is trying to tell folk what they can say or what they can read. Kiefer Sutherland and Murdoch's Fox network used 24 as a vehicle to articulate a particular world view at a crucial point in The War On Terror; I didn't really watch it. Phoning the Ford motor company to demand they withdrew their cringeworthy sponsorship of the show, so nobody who liked it was allowed to make their own mind up- as 1MMoms advocate- seems mental.

You clearly have never watched 24, bikini kill dude, that show has more white American corporate villains than Middle Eastern and/or ethnic ones, the writing staff had more Democrats than Republicans in it, Kiefer Sutherland is a self-confessed "socialist" in his political views, and the show was created before 9/11 took place... 24 is no more an advocation of the Bush Doctrine than 007 is a comment on British foreign policy, you really need to stop reading those kooky left-wing websites, with due and sincere respect...

isn't it odd that when christians complain about losing their rights, its usually the right to treat someone else as a second class citizen. 

... or the right to liberty of conscience...

I think it also needs to be highlighted that not every Christian subscribes to an anti-gay stance. For me one of the tragedies of this kind of debate is that it highlights peoples often correct perceptions of people like me. We God-botherers have some serious issues at times.  In this instance I think it may be quite justifiable to shoot the messenger-we've screwed the message up to a criminal degree.

So you think, respectfully asking, that when the Almighty condemns that particular behavior, He has issues, do you?  And Christians are supposed to be salt and light to the world, not to compromise with it, and as far as supposedly screwing up the message, which message is that precisely, we are to love the sinner but hate the sin, and if some get confused about that, they need to take it up with the Almighty, it really is that simple... I LOVE this thread, it really is a stimulating one, if only the rest of the interweb was this engaging and thoroughly decent in the discussion of emotive issues, bravo...

Genuinely not sure if you are being serious or not but in case you are:

Hate the sin and love the sinner? Is gay orientation a sin?

Even if you define it as such-In your opinion have Christians ever fallen a little short of that your standard maybe done less well with the love the sinner bit? Maybe got wrapped up in a little good old fashioned plain prejudice and wrapped selective bits of the Bible around it to justify that all too human prejudice ? I think (respectfully) that they might have.

The message? One of grace and love. A recognition that we all sin and come short. A shaking of the head on my part when people get all smug because certain people perhaps sin differently than they do. If you are going to start with gays lets move on to see what the Bible says about people like the gluttonous etc Lets go the whole hog. And while we are it lets question why Jesus never once referred to gays but did have so much to say about justice and intolerance.

I'm not saying its not a difficult issue on which people can hold genuine and sincere differences-it plainly is. But lets approach it with brutal honesty.

[Modern Panther]

What your encountering isn't the loss of freedom of belief Beaky, its the creeping realisation that christians aren't the unquestioned authority anymore.

Jesus didn't tell you that homosexuality is wrong.  He didn't mention it once, although He did advise you to hate your family and that you wouldn't be allowed unto heaven unless your a Jew.

The teaching you are following are much older.  The can be found in the same scripture that outlaws the wearing of certain fabrics, the eating of shellfish, the trimming of beards, not killing disobedient children.  your rejected these teachings, presumably?

Replace 'gay' with any other minority and your beliefs would be regarded as archiac.

[TordelBack]

I've always thought focussing a pro-gay argument on the genetic causes of homosexuality is a really bad idea. 

It's certainly a fair observation that homosexuality is present across the animal kingdom, and thus is likely to a basic feature of (at least) vertebrate behaviour, but so is a hell of a lot of other less desirable stuff that we wisely set rules against (GBH, theft, rape etc.) - best not to base the argument around that.  Far better to step back from genetic determinism and focus on the simple philosophy of a wonderfully complex humanity played out in each individual.

I'm sure some people are born in such a way that homosexuality will always be their exclusive orientation (my best friend growing up was gay from Day 1 - he knew he was gay and even I knew he was gay even before we knew the word), and I'm equally sure that other people's lives lead them in that direction, some all of the way, some part of the way, some temporarily, some permanently and exclusively.  So (literally) fucking what.  People are what they are, like what they like, and act accordingly.  The question only matters if you bring some bizarre agenda of prevention or cure into the picture.  Better by far to put all that thought and effort into tackling the other great genetic/environment issue of obesity.

[Modern Panther]

The lifestyle choice to be overweight is a morally wrong one and they should be refused the right to marry or have kids until they get one the treadmill and loose some pounds.  Anyone who disagrees is wrong, and denying me my freedom of belief.

..only kidding.  I love fatties...almost as much as I love secretly gay christians....

[TordelBack]

I love fatties...

We love you too (roasted in goosefat).

[Trout]

I find it fascinating that people use religion as an excuse to be an utter wanker. Can they not see the contradiction?

[Roger Godpleton]

Stop persecuting wankers.

If everyone was a wanker, or at least admitted to being a wanker, the world would be a much more relaxed place. I'd take being a wanker over being an Abrahmite any day of the week.

[TordelBack]

I'd take being a wanker over being an Abrahmite any day of the week.

I doubt Abraham himself had any time for wanking, what with his divine mandate to impregnate servants.  Even poor old Onan himself did his seed-spilling in company.  The Bible's problem with wanking is that they were all too shagged out from shagging to even bother. 

[House of Usher]

I'm sure there would be a lot more love for Christians, even from atheists, if 21st century religiosity wouldn't keep aligning itself so determinedly with right-wing politics, which is the politics of, you know, hatred and greed. Religion is supposed to be about love, and yet so many followers of religion these days are constantly telling us religion is about low taxes and hegemony.

[The Prodigal]

I'm sure there would be a lot more love for Christians, even from atheists, if 21st century religiosity wouldn't keep aligning itself so determinedly with right-wing politics, which is the politics of, you know, hatred and greed. Religion is supposed to be about love, and yet so many followers of religion these days are constantly telling us religion is about low taxes and hegemony.

In North America Christians tend (sometimes unfairly) to be linked to horrendous right wing politics. In Europe we can be a bit more left orientated. My own personal politics are very much left directed.

http://www.facebook.com/#!/TheChristianLeft

[TordelBack]

Quite a good Saturday Morning Breakfast Cereal in and around the gay marriage non-issue:

[Modern Panther]

The pull of political extremes is probably difficult to avoid if you have a belief system that deals in absolutes and unquestioning acceptance of authority.  When your world is drawn into question by secular attitudes, withdrawing into the warm embrace of the faith that you are right must be comforting.

I think it was Jonathan Haidt who wrote that no-one is preaching that the sun will rise tomorrow.  Its an enevitability, which we accept as fact.  Only viewpoints which are questioned are preached from the pulpit.