The Political Thread

[Dog Deever]

Nicola Sturgeon today:

"If we have our hands on the levers of economic decision-making, if we have access to our own resources, then we are able to design an economic policy to suit our needs.

But surely without their own currency, they WON'T have their hands on those levers - even less than they do now.

I read one commentator that thought Salmond has really shot himself in the foot with the the way he's handled the whole currency question - if he'd said from the outset "we'll have a Scottish pound, pegged to the British pound" it would never have become such a decisive issue, but his reluctance to give a plan B (and then to give three), and his insistence that Westminster and the BoE will simply change it's mind after a Yes vote, have simply been a gift to the BT campaign.

Again- you misunderstand entirely what is happening. WE ARE NOT VOTING FOR THE SNP FFS. That is their plan. YES SCOTLAND IS NOT A POLITICAL PARTY- they have no fiscal policy- they don't need one as THEY ARE NOT A PARTY. When you misunderstand what is happening at such a fundamental level, and continue along this line, you are making a fool of yourself and it makes me glad that you don't get to vote on this.

[Dudley]

Nicola Sturgeon today:

"If we have our hands on the levers of economic decision-making, if we have access to our own resources, then we are able to design an economic policy to suit our needs.

But surely without their own currency, they WON'T have their hands on those levers - even less than they do now.

I read one commentator that thought Salmond has really shot himself in the foot with the the way he's handled the whole currency question - if he'd said from the outset "we'll have a Scottish pound, pegged to the British pound" it would never have become such a decisive issue, but his reluctance to give a plan B (and then to give three), and his insistence that Westminster and the BoE will simply change it's mind after a Yes vote, have simply been a gift to the BT campaign.

Again- you misunderstand entirely what is happening. WE ARE NOT VOTING FOR THE SNP FFS. That is their plan. YES SCOTLAND IS NOT A POLITICAL PARTY- they have no fiscal policy- they don't need one as THEY ARE NOT A PARTY. When you misunderstand what is happening at such a fundamental level, and continue along this line, you are making a fool of yourself and it makes me glad that you don't get to vote on this.

The SNP will be the party in power throughout the independence negotiations and for the first few months of independence.  You are voting for them to have full charge of negotiations and to set all terms of reference for the future country, serious and significant commitments (such as currency union) that no future Scottish government will be able to change without breaking international treaties.

[Jim_Campbell]

you are making a fool of yourself and it makes me glad that you don't get to vote on this.

Given that he doesn't have a vote, there's really no need for you be quite such a dick about it, is there?

Jim

[Dog Deever]

you are making a fool of yourself and it makes me glad that you don't get to vote on this.

Given that he doesn't have a vote, there's really no need for you be quite such a dick about it, is there?

Jim

Perhaps, but- given his sneering and inflammatory statements earlier which were little more than poking a hornets nest, DDD really shouldn't have expected any more. And whilst I certainly didn't need to be a dick about it, I felt justified in wanting to be. Feel free to differ in opinion on that, I can live with it.

[ZenArcade]

Sorry lads, I'm very busy at work and am trying to follow this thread as best I can....let's keep this to the debate and not let acronomy get in the way of what had been a heated but civilised discussion, pretty please. Z

[Jim_Campbell]

Sorry lads, I'm very busy at work and am trying to follow this thread as best I can....let's keep this to the debate and not let acronomy get in the way of what had been a heated but civilised discussion, pretty please.

NO! YUOR MOM!!1!!

[Proudhuff]

I believe the YES campaign has invited our countrymen/women in the NO campaign to join Team Scoltand post vote.

[Dog Deever]

Fair enough. People have to understand- you are one step away from it if you are not in Scotland. Here- it is the topic of conversation everywhere all the time- not for nothing have people been out in force on the street over this weekend. Passions are aflame and the debate is often very heated- the stakes are high and the level of dirty tricks from the UK establishment has plumbed the absolute depths. I mean no harm to DDD on a personal level, but his attitude on this topic was something I felt was little more than trolling- not that I am accusing Dan of being like that all the time.

[Dandontdare]

you are making a fool of yourself and it makes me glad that you don't get to vote on this.

Given that he doesn't have a vote, there's really no need for you be quite such a dick about it, is there?

Jim

Perhaps, but- given his sneering and inflammatory statements earlier which were little more than poking a hornets nest, DDD really shouldn't have expected any more. And whilst I certainly didn't need to be a dick about it, I felt justified in wanting to be. Feel free to differ in opinion on that, I can live with it.

I hope that none of my posts were "sneering", that was certainly not my intent and I'll apologise if they came across that way, but I'll hold my hands up to inflammatory - it's an inflammatory issue for all of us.

I'll bite my tongue on this debate now.

[ZenArcade]

Ach well, sure I tried. Z 

[Dog Deever]

No problem Dan, I apologise for being a dick about it. I (correctly) thought you were being inflammatory and called you on it, Jim felt I was being a dick about it- and I was, quite intentionally, and called me on it. Apologies have been swapped and everyone is happy again.

Please, feel free to continue, DDD. It's not on me to say what you can or can't do or say- there is no intention to stifle debate.

[Jim_Campbell]

Fair enough. People have to understand- you are one step away from it if you are not in Scotland. Here- it is the topic of conversation everywhere all the time- not for nothing have people been out in force on the street over this weekend. Passions are aflame and the debate is often very heated- the stakes are high and the level of dirty tricks from the UK establishment has plumbed the absolute depths. I mean no harm to DDD on a personal level, but his attitude on this topic was something I felt was little more than trolling- not that I am accusing Dan of being like that all the time.

I'm not sure how you got to 'trolling' from DDD's post.

Salmond and the SNP are certainly the primary face of the Yes campaign and, as Dudley notes, theirs will certainly be the steering hands in the event of a 'yes' vote. Nothing wrong with that — independence for Scotland is their raison d'être, after all.

However, the more I look at this issue, the more convinced I am that Salmond and the Yes campaign's insistence that there will be a currency union serves their "everything will be basically the same, only better" rhetoric, which in turn serves his (entirely legitimate) independence ambitions, but does not actually serve the interests of Scotland particularly well.

Imagine, for example, the rUK and Scots economies diverge — the sovereign wealth fund and heavy investment in public services provides a stable employment base and steady economic growth in Scotland. rUK, possibly under a Tory government lead by that idiot Boris Yeltsin Johnson, possibly in a UKIP coalition, pursue yet more austerity: the public services are gutted, the minimum wage is abolished, we possibly leave the EU, and the rUK economy experiences a balance of trade crisis, or an unwanted surge in credit as everyone borrows to shore up their personal finances, or any number of other things that might necessitate a rise in interest rates that would serve the rUK economy and be catastrophic for the Scots economy. Do you honestly think the BoE is going to pause for even a moment to consider the interests of a separate, independent nation with 9% of the population of the rUK?

In fact, the only worse option would be the 'Panama' option, which should prompt all right-minded citizens to pursue any politician seriously proposing it for a developed, first-world nation through the streets pelting him/her with rotten fruit.

The more I look at it, the more I become convinced that the best option would be for Scotland to have it's own independent state bank, issue its own currency, and undertake to peg it to sterling for —say— five years to calm any nerves in the financial markets.

Charitably, I would say that the Yes campaign are being hopelessly optimistic on this issue. Less charitably, I would argue that they are being actively disingenuous. Whilst I fall — sentimentally, at least — on the side of preserving the Union, if you go (no, realistically, when you go... I don't think there's any way this genie goes back in its bottle) then I want you to go as a formative nation with a far clearer and more pragmatic idea of what you will become, rather than leaving crucial economic issues to "Fuck it, we'll get rid of the English and sort that shit out afterwards"...

Cheers
Jim

[Dog Deever]

I'm not sure how you got to 'trolling' from DDD's post.

I felt he was poking a hornets nest with a deliberately inflammatory post, which I also took to be fairly sneering. Trying to get a reaction. Trolling.

The more I look at it, the more I become convinced that the best option would be for Scotland to have it's own independent state bank, issue its own currency, and undertake to peg it to sterling for —say— five years to calm any nerves in the financial markets.

I agree. Many others agree also. I also want rid of the Royals and a strengthening of trade unions. I want big business and 'interest groups' out of education- that is for after the referendum,the need for absolute unity and mutual support in both camps it is a necessary measure.

[Devons Daddy]

the BIG VOTE
calhab goes it alone, and Brit Cit invades for the OIL that one.
is it all  media hype it to be or is it really that close?

i don't live in BRIT CIT so its a genuine question. have not done so for 25 years

[Dog Deever]

It is very hard to tell, areas differ- on the ground it looks like a massive Yes in the South. We don't do mass mob stuff up this way. There's a lot of No signs around farmlands in Aberdeenshire- but who knows? They might all be the same two or three farmers, they might not.

The Yes campaign is certainly more visible up here, but I clock a fair few quietly going about their business with no badges, though possibly not as much the number of Yes ones- however we have an RAF base and an Army base (which may or may not be meaningful), here and I am unclear on how this will play out. Unfortunately the next couple of days are squeaky-bum time and there is a sense of frenetic tension- call it fear or trepidation, whatever. I'm not sure that anyone is particularly confident about how things will go- just nervous.

I'm sure other boarders have a clearer view of other areas of the country.