The Political Thread

[Mgubgub]

I rarely post on the board but feel compelled to join in due to the liveliness of this engaging debate. One way of approaching without taking sides is to offer two statements and by comparison, see, using Occams razor which is the most likely to be the true statement.

There is no waste in the public or private sector

Both the public and private sector have waste.

To view and accept the truth postulated in the first statement that there is no waste would be foolish and the likelihood of the second statement would I hope be deemed to be more accurate than the first.
Upon reflection as I write this the first statement reminds me of the propaganda overtones spat by domineering sinister Governments ie Communist nations and also reminds me of certain excerpts from 1984 and Animal Farm. The second line that there is waste offers in some way an air of optimism in the way that we have admitted to a flaw and just by doing so hope to right the wrong.
I once wrote on twitter "Because Utopia is impossible Dystopia is acceptable". If a government is telling you that things are so great and there is nothing wrong they are wrong and more than likely lying.

The whole view or bigger picture and truth also lies in the fact that you can't reward failure and you can't punish success. Neil Cavuto on Fox said the other week he had known poor people and he had known rich people yet he had never been employed by a poor person. A necessity of capitalism and probably the reason why the west won the cold war and thawed Russia's totalitarian stance was it could afford to be competitive. Through having contractors compete to win military contracts companies had to have the maximum damage minimum cost at the optimum ratio of our guys win and at a certain cost that remained acceptable to the democratic doctrine of most western nations and in doing so preserve freedom of speech. The west still remains a potent force today due to the way in which it maintains it's serviceman and their capabilities. One sore truth I believe in is the way in which Oil rich nations in the middle east mainly armed themselves with Russian equipment??? Now they are what we in the west believe to be rich yet they bought the cheapest equipment and with it lost many of the present day fights.

I'm not practised in the art of debate and my comment was designed to act as a way for both sides of the argument being able to nod at each other and say "Agreed there is waste".

[Robin Low]

Before I go on can you please quote me where I said that my mates information went on everwhere in the public sector.

I think the implication is quite clear, since this is a topic you choose to return to. That may be a misreading on my part

I think as is the norm, you just saw words that didn't actually exist in my post about his place and just jumped in to defend against something you thought you saw!.

I don't accept that I did anything of the sort.

Lets get this straight shall we, the person who runs the school kitchens and then tells me what goes on must be a liar, as that is the implication of what you have said.

No, that is not the implication. My post clearly concerns the dangers of generalisations, as I restated in subsequent posts.

Excellent, then that would mean that everything you say that comes from any source must be bollocks a well.

I don't recall dismissing your stories as bollocks, nor have I used any of my anecdotes to condemn the private sector, just offer some balance.

I can never understand why people can't admit there is a vast amount of waste in both sectors.

I have acknowledged waste. What I won't do is make assumptions about how much and who is worse or better based on little data.

How many times must I tell you that I saw waste at my place and no fucker gave a shit. I put my head on the line with another bloke to say something about this to the boss and guess what, bugger all got done. At least I know I did my bit to stop it but as far as I can see that's our country for you, nobody seems to give a shit.

Okay, you've had a bad experience. Why do you assume it's the same for everyone else?

Now back to the tea and coffee, why should anyone be given free food or drink at work, as far as I can see they are there to do their jobs, not get fed and watered. I must be living on another planet, why not go the whole hog and let the cleaners have free tea and coffee as well. I see you mention that you used to bring your own tea bags and coffee in at one of your old departments and at your new place the consultant brings them in for you. Guess what I'm okay with that as that is how it should be done.

I've got no problem with any organisation looking after its staff. Clearly this is an issue for you, but personally I don't understand why.

I think I remeber you said way back in this thread that your mother found £100,000 of waste and sorted it out. Well I don't believe that as that must be one of those, hang on a second 'secondhand anecdotal stories' that you always go on about. That's how insane it is when people try as hard as you not to believe anything bad against their workplace.

Just to remind you, I wrote:

Perhaps you'd like to explain to me then how our Trust was able to save the required 30 million pounds last year and deal with an increase in work if it's so wasteful. Or how my mother saved £100,000 by renogotiating contracts with medical suppliers. Or how about the 90+ hours of unpaid time my girlfriend is currently owed but never likely to see (and keep in mind she doesn't record anything under 30 minutes). We can all play the anecdote game, but the proof is in the reality of the incredible range and depth of effective public services that are provided 24 hours a day, seven days a week across the whole of this country.

Note that I acknowledge that anecdotes are a two-way street.

My wife works for the NHS and her mother did her whole life before she retired but I won't mention any of their stories, even if they said just good things about the NHS as these must be discounted, as they are 'secondhand anecdotal stories', see how this can go on.

Positive ancedotal stories don't prove the NHS is perfect, and I've never suggested otherwise.

I went in hospital the other week for an op and I couldn't fault the staff who dealt with me but I'll tell you this. When they came around with tea, coffee and sarnies, I declined as I don't bellieve I'm there to be fed. I did ask for some water though, as that was free. I'm not saying that other patients don't need to be fed but I was only in for about 6 hours and didn't want to be a burden on their budget as I have my principles and I actually live by them.

A burden on their budget. Jesus, you really have no conception at all of costs.

I did like the uneducated murderous rapists comments as I knew you would resort to stuff like that

You knew that did you? How did you know that? Personally, I think it's one of the most extreme things I'ver ever written here, so I really don't see how you could know I'd resort to it.

and don't worry I don't accept your apology, as you should stand by your words as I do mine. If you had said them verbally I could understand, as it would be in the heat of the moment but typing them takes a bit of time and you can always check before you post.

I do stand by my words and the point I was making about generalisation. I apologised because I didn't want to cause offence should you or others assume I was making a statement I believed in. Unfortunately, that seems to be the ways it has been read. I rarely apologise for anything, but if you don't accept it that's your business.

Yes I'm sure squaddies have murdered people (the bloke who played that bod on Eastenders for one). I'm sure they have raped people and I'm sure that some are uneducated as with people in every other job in life.

Do you want me to mention the amount of money that is paid out due to the mistakes that happen in our hospitals every year. Now that is a disgrace but obviously those BILLIONS are only paid out for a few mistakes. Now obviously you probably think I made that up cause a mate told me or something, so just for you have a look at this article. They must be making mistakes all the time, I could go on about the state of the cleaning in hospitals. MRSA must be something I just made up and then we get down to the doctors and nurses who actually go out of their way to kill people. A small amount I know but never the less they exist. I do find it fun to point these things out, which I wasn't really bothered about as all I mention was tea and coffee at a school but I'm quite enjoying it now. I'll let you do a search for the doctors and nurses who kill as I'm sure you don't believe any of these people could do such a thing.

You've completely missed the point. I mean really, completely and utterly.

I love the way you link teachers having free tea and coffee to military personel being given treatment after being wounded, I don't think the comparison really works but good try. I suppose that would work for a firefighter, policeman/woman, etc...

I'm not making a link between tea and treatment, teachers and soldiers, I'm making a comparison between our attitudes to things funded by the tax payer.

You mention they all 'volunteered for a potentially lethal and sometimes morally dubious occupation'. Well they volunteered to join the forces to defend this country as the primary role and for adventure (probably the other way round I suspect), obviously you will have those who actually might want to just kill someone.

I'm working on the assumption that most soldiers may be called upon to fight and kill someone at some point. I've always assumed this was a fundamental part of the job, and people who join the army presumably realise that and willing to do it.

The dubious occupation, well you can thank Labour for that.

I think being willing to kill is dubious, regardless of their politics. You'll note that 'dubious' does not mean 'wrong' or 'bad'.

When two of my nephews wanted to join I laid it all out for them the good and the bad. I pressed home the fact that if they happened to become injured then don't expect the forces to give a shit but they both signed up anyway.

Being treated like shit by your employers is something you have to accept if you work in the public sector. But that's not really the point. My issue is with killing. I can see times when there is no choice other than to fight and kill, but as it currently stands, those signing up do have a choice. So, I have a problem with it. However, regardless of my personal concerns, I fully expect that soldiers, and others, should be properly funded, equipped and cared for in the course of their work and afterwards. I don't begrudge them that, even though I don't necessarily support all of their actions.

But this is badly derailing the point I had hoped to make.

Now I'll actually use a full quote from yourself this time just to clarify something.[/color]

Oh, and I've agreed before that there is waste in the Public Sector. My questions have always been is it as widespread as often depicted by the media and the government, and is it really any worse than in the Private Sector which supposedly has all the answers? But one seems to give a shit about about that, either, least of all your good self.

Are you saying with the last part that I don't give a shit about the waste in the private sector, just look at what I mention earlier on in this post. I was that whistleblower and nothing happened, so please don't say that I don't care. Then again that could be one of those secondhand anecdotal stories if the other bloke told you it 

Look: completely out of the blue you posted something a mate told you, using it to support an argument you've raised before. It's clear it's an issue for you, so it's not an unreasonable assumption that your main motivation is having go at the public sector. Mentioning your experience in the private sector may look like an attempt at balance to you, but it still looks like your primary motivation is knocking the public sector.

That may not be true, but that's how it looks.

Why do people find it hard to believe that the PUBLIC SECTOR has waste in it.

Nobody finds it hard to believe that the public sector has waste in it. People are not disagreeing with you on this. Hell, you win! What I and some others are challenging you on is the degree and significance of that waste, and whether the public sector really has that much to learn from the private, and if the latter should take over more of the former (which I seem to remember is where all this first started).


Regards

Robin

[COMMANDO FORCES]

Glad you couldn't quote me on what you thought you saw. Jumping to conclusions is great especially as you still seem to be doing that by saying that the implication is quite clear.

You keep bringing up generalisations when I gave what information that had come to me from the 'horses mouth' and nothing else. I keep looking through my couple of posts and can't see any generalisations from me, just the one FACT!

I see you offer balance but I am unable when I mention what is going on at my place, which is not a one off but I'll fill you in on that later.

I agree you did say there was waste in the public sector and I won't deny that, as that is what my fact is all about. I still didn't generalise though, I stated one FACT!

As I'm going down your list in order I'll tell you about the waste at my place that is not a one off but is continous. We have 120 drivers at work, 60 days, 60 nights and out of that lot 80 plus are known to defraud the company through taking the piss. How do they do this, numerous ways! They get a job and they take over an hour to leave the yard (it should take 20 mins at the most), they get to a drop and ask for an hour plus break and then have breaks outside after they have done the drop (we are entitled to a 45 min break, driving laws), they deliberately drive slow so that someone else might overtake them to the drop and so slow them down even more, the list goes on.
I'm not happy with this kind of attitude to work and so with another bloke went forward with loads of info but no names, on how to stop all this. I was stunned when nothing happened.
So as you can see it's not a one off and not just one person, it's the majority. The drivers even tell each other on how to hang the job out to get more overtime.

I have a problem with the tea and coffee as you are there to work. Even my missus who is extreme left (I'll jump to a conclusion on this one, I bet you don't believe that) is disgusted by this. She said that it's not for the tax payer to supply drinks for staff and said that when her uncle used to teach Science in London he would use his teabags more than once. Perhaps times have moved on and everyone is in it for themselves now.

I did like the way you mention I have no conception of costs. That is where it all starts, I'll take a bit of that, I'll take a bit more next time, this time I'll bloody well help myself. What's wrong with a person following his belief and not taking something. If one of those teachers stood up and said "you know what, it doesn't feel right us lot having free drinks" I'd be impressed. Then again £1900 a month is nothing compared to my one cup and a sarnie that I declined.

The squaddie bit is what I expected because it is the same lame response from many people, when they know your past job. I'm actually surprised you didn't call me a Right Wing Nazi!

The apology bit I couldn't care less about, you typed those words in and then use it as a generalisation. I then put some facts about the NHS in to show you that I won't generalise, as I like to deal in facts. You then say that I missed the point. As I said I like to deal in facts which is what my initial post was all about. A fact from the person who runs the place, not some second hand yarn from some bloke in a pub who knows someone.

The sentence that you mention teachers and squaddies is a comparison as far as I can see it. Otherwise why mention the squaddies (could it be because I was one), why not mention nurses, or not even mention any other job.

You work under the assumption that most soldiers may be called to kill someone during a conflict. Here's a fact for you around 10% of the British army are frontline troops, it may be slightly more nowadays due to cuts. Those that join the CDO's, PARAS, Infantry and then rebadge into the SAS and SBS will stand a good chance but even out of the first three a large portion will be rear echelon. Yes everyone is taught infantry skills on joining during basic training but then you badge into your trades or infantry units and progress.

I did enjoy your concerns about about those soldiers and their choice nowadays to join up. Perhaps you should be glad that someone wants to better themselves and get a trade and higher education (yes the forces allow that) By the way, those are my leftie wifes words.

You mention that out of the blue I mention what I was told. Well it was out of the blue but I was told it yesterday (now) and so I thought I would enlighten everyone as to what is going on in ONE school. I suppose I could have waited years to say it or better still never mention it and hope it goes away. Again you jump at the conclusion, still with no quote, that I am saying this happens everywhere, which I am not. Perhaps you know more than you let on and I have touched a nerve.
That may not be true, but that's how it looks.

I'm still happy that you agree that there is waste in the Public sector though.

One last thing, you mention that this all started with someone saying that the public sector could learn a thing or two from the private. It's obvious that they could and the same goes the other way as well. I haven't read that post so I never knew it all started there.

P.S. I wonder if the bloke who had those discs about the MP's taking the piss had someone have a go at him for spilling those facts. I do hope not!

[Robin Low]

CF, there's way too much there even for me to reply and I've made you far to angry, so there's no point me following it up right now. It's ruining both our weekends. I will attempt to clarify one point and one point only:

The sentence that you mention teachers and squaddies is a comparison as far as I can see it. Otherwise why mention the squaddies (could it be because I was one), why not mention nurses, or not even mention any other job.

The reason I used soldiers, particularly in my original example, was in the hope I could make you understand how it feels to be on the recieving on of generalised criticism. I accept I went too far in my example and have unreservedly apologised, but if you see it as genuine malice I doubt there is anything I can do to change your mind. But I do regret it, and I am sorry to offend you so much.

Regards

Robin

[Trout]

This thread has led two of 2000AD's biggest fans - the keeper of the Cellar of Dredd and a man so knowledgeable about the comic that John Wagner consulted him and name-checked him in the prog - into an argument about NOTHING AT ALL.

Gentlemen, your opinions differ and that's okay. But when you start arguing about "what you said" and "what I said", the whole exercise is pointless. I like you both very much and I think Robin's doing the right thing by leaving it alone.

I've made no secret of my utter hatred for this thread, which is pretty much poisonous to new readers of 2000AD who might stumble across it. If I had my way I would just lock it. I don't see why the comic's publishers bother to pay for a website that hosts it. It does nothing to benefit their business.

- Trout

(Edited for a small typo.)

[JOE SOAP]

I don't see why the comic's publishers bother to pay for a website that hosts it. It does nothing to benefit their business.

Yeah, well, y'know that's just like eh...your opinion man.

[COMMANDO FORCES]

I agree King Trout, it has become a bit he said, she said (even though we are both males) so I'll just leave it at that and if some Moderator wants to lock the topic or even delete it then fine.

I think that politics are probably best talked about face to face rather than through a forum, as things are easily discussed via the former.

All the best,
John

[JOE SOAP]

No one need read this thread if they don't want to. It's purpose is to keep this kind of thing from leaking into other threads.

[Trout]

So people keep telling me. Perhaps this sort of thing should just leak to the appropriate place - some other website.

[M.I.K.]

So people keep telling me. Perhaps this sort of thing should just leak to the appropriate place - some other website.

As good an idea as that may be, I think doing away with all talk of politics on a forum for fans of a comic whose most popular and enduring character is a fascistic-police-state-law-officer-type-bloke  might be asking a bit too much.

[JOE SOAP]

CF and Robin are both gents and have always acted as such, this situation included. Previous lunatics -since gone- have dragged their personal rants across the entire forum. It's not the thread that can be a problem. It's those without manners. I would hate to think the official 2000AD forum should ever become censored/boring because someone feels a bit uncomfortable.

[Definitely Not Mister Pops]

I would hate to think the official 2000AD forum should ever become censored/boring because someone feels a bit uncomfortable.

Hear Hear. As Mark Twain* once said:  'Censorship is telling a man he can't have a steak just because a baby can't chew it.'

Although I'm pretty sure I read that he stole this off someone else

[The Legendary Shark]

I find it amusing to be talking about the waste associated with piffling things like tea and biscuits when the banks and corporations are stealing millions off us daily with the help of our own politicians. Disgruntled coach-drivers I used to work with employed similar scams to enhance their wages - but why shouldn't they? They saw our politicians raking in a grand for some half-hour nefarious meeting and then when they got the chance sold a ticket for a coach journey without putting it through the receipt book, making around five to twelve quid at a time up to three or four times a month. I'm not condoning this type of behaviour, but if you want to stamp out waste you first must stamp out greed - and in a society where greed is both glorified and rewarded (if you're rich to begin with, that is - greed is only seen as a negative if you're poor), that's not such an easy thing to do.

On an unrelated note, I started this thread (and a notorious sister thread) because I found my politics spilling over into other posts. I eventually recognised that this was Bad Form and so started these threads to contain the overspill. Politics is, after all, a very divisive subject and can fray tempers at the double quick hurry-up. I for one credit each person who posts in this thread with the intelligence to understand and accept that any thread with the word "Political" in the title has the capacity to offend and upset.

Also, why aren't we talking about Occupy Wall Street and its' sister occupations? Demonstrations against corporate greed and undue private financial control over governments are going on in over 900 cities worldwide, and it gets a few minutes of woefully inadequate coverage on the BBC, ITV, Sky and CNN? They're still calling them "anti-capitalists" for Christ's sake! The only in-depth coverage of these movements to be had is on Press TV (which OFCOM is banning for being a little too pro-Patestinian), Al Jazeera and (amazingly, at least to the Cold War Baby within me) Russia Today.

I also love you all, so if anyone takes umbrage at what I say then it's your own fault. Keep the umbrage you've taken and frame it or something, because I don't want it back. The stuff soon goes off and starts to reek after only a couple of days.

[Definitely Not Mister Pops]

Occupy Wall Street? Let me tell you about Occupy Belfast. They're camped out in front of St. Annes Cathedral beside sheltered accomodation for the homeless/art students.

[JOE SOAP]

Also, why aren't we talking about Occupy Wall Street and its' sister occupations? Demonstrations against corporate greed and undue private financial control over governments are going on in over 900 cities worldwide, and it gets a few minutes of woefully inadequate coverage on the BBC, ITV, Sky and CNN?

Obviously the majority of us aren't suffering enough yet -for the underclass welfare has unfortunately become a bribe to stay put and shut up in these isles- and until it happens normal programming will resume on this channel.