Anyone watching this?
I generally avoid adaptions as I feel the compromises to convert a book (or more specifically comic) to film or telly aren't necessary as we have the book or comic. That said I do make exceptions and His Dark Materials has me quite excited. Mainly as I've read this recently to my daughter. I didn't really enjoy reading it to her if I'm honest. Not that its not a great story it certainly is. Just that reading it out loud isn't the most pleasent thing. All the words felt so big and awkward in mouth and it was a bit of a struggle to get through for me, due to reading it outloud. She loved it however.
So knowing she was excited about this and giving me the chance to enjoy it just as a story was I pretty up for this.
Alas it was the very definition of the problem I have with such things. It looked great. Just not my great. Prime example being the Gyptians. Who looked cool, and perfect for how they should... just not how they should in my minds eye. The show was pretty slavish to the book, yet this just served to emphasis the differences. The extended beginning felt clumsy. It would have been great to have been bold enough to throw the viewer right into Lyra sneaking into the room to watch The Master et al.
Ruth Wilson doesn't work as Mrs Coulter either for me yet. She lacks the easy dark charm I'm after. I thought Dafne Keen was great as Lyra on the other hand. Real star for me was the lad who played Roger. For some reason he just worked for me.
All in all while it will no doubt have considerable problems and I'm very interested to see how they deal with its central theme as things develop into series 2 and 3 - I'm glad the BBC (all be it considerably aided by big US companies) can still do this type of lush family entertainment.
I'm looking forward to it - it's airing on HBO over here.
It's almost guaranteed to be a better adaptation than the 2007 Golden Compass movie, which was a failure in almost every conceivable way barring some of the casting - it's hard to see how Lin Manuel Miranda is going to top Sam Elliot as Lee Scoresby for example.
I like McAvoy, but not sure he's an ideal fit for Asriel - he's a great actor but I'd always pictured someone more stately with a more commanding presence (and frankly taller) than either McAvoy or Daniel Craig. I'd always pictured Terence Stamp in my mind's eye reading the books (who funnily enough I later found out played the role in the BBC Radio adaptation).
Very curious to see how they tackle book 3 should they get that far (which I remember really going off the rails in terms of plot and getting bogged down in slightly tiresome metaphor).
It's so cool to see the BBC doing a big fantasy show like this to air in the run up to Christmas.
Would love to see them redo The Box of Delights - that would be incredible with modern visual effects.
So far so good for me apart from the slight distrust of the audience's ability to work things out by having the extended opening.
I may be misremembering but two phrases that stood out from that opening scene in the master's room were "severed child" and "panzerbjorn". Both just intrigued me and me want to read on. But maybe I missed them here.
I've never read the book or seen the film.
It was okay. I'll be tuning in next week but more out of a sense of 'this has an amazing reputation so it must get good' than from anything I saw in ep.1.
I thought the animal companions seemed a bit cheesy and silly and I didn't think it was directed particularly well (an example - when the kids went into the tomb, it looked liked the least scary room ever - big and open and bright. Loads of wide shots to emphasize the spaciousness. It seemed very lacking in atmosphere).
The performances were generally pretty good and I liked the airships. I thought the 'dust' photographs looked really cool too.
Good stuff and always nice to see BIG fantasy telly. Feels like a real treat.
Last thing the Beeb did in this vein was Strange and Norrell, wasn't it?
(Which I loved).
Exposition title cards are always a warning flag -- and there was nothing whatsoever in them that you couldn't get from the episode. Looked great, very watchable, but a bit flat in the dialogue and tension department.
I watched the first episode with Michael Van Kesteren, who designed the alethiometer for this show, amongst other things. You may recall him from such things as designing and making the Lawgiver in 'Dredd' (amongst other things).
I enjoyed the first episode, and had the pleasure of a 'behind the scenes' chat afterwards, from a design and fabrication perspective.
It turns out another of my mates is in this too. He features regularly in Dr Who as the monster of the week, but in this show he was 'dude with fox that kidnapped the child'.
QuoteI didn't think it was directed particularly well (an example - when the kids went into the tomb, it looked liked the least scary room ever - big and open and bright. Loads of wide shots to emphasize the spaciousness. It seemed very lacking in atmosphere).
I haven't seen it yet myself, but this seems like a hallmark of director Tom Hooper, who has a very peculiar, widely derided shooting style, favouring strange shot compositions and heavy use of wide angle lenses, (even for close ups, which is generally considered a no no in photography). I've seen Youtube video essays criticising his framing as being weirdly disorienting and somewhat unsuitable for the subject matter. His involvement has me a little concerned, though on the whole I think the show looks pretty decent.
QuoteExposition title cards are always a warning flag -- and there was nothing whatsoever in them that you couldn't get from the episode
I'm hoping it's at least better than the truly awful opening voiceover exposition dump they went with in the movie, which completely deflated and spoiled the mystery of the beginning of the novel (which IIRC begins very much in media res and lets the reader figure stuff like daemons out for themselves).
QuoteSo far so good for me apart from the slight distrust of the audience's ability to work things out by having the extended opening.
As I understand it, this adaptation brings in elements from the other Philip Pullman books, not just the Dark Materials trilogy, so maybe thats the reason for the extended opening?
Just watched episode one, and despite looking very nice, based on what I've seen so far I'm not sure its a particularly strong adaptation of the book, sadly.
There's something a bit stilted and clumsy about the whole thing thats hard to put my finger on, but I just don't think it does a great job of creating a compelling narrative for people unfamiliar with the books.
Despite having a much longer running time at its disposal than the 2007 movie, it still somehow feels very rushed in terms of pacing, and doesn't feel like its really doing a very good job of establishing character relationships, world building or conveying information organically.
I also don't care for the portrayal of Lyra, which was one of my main complaints of the movie. Lyra is supposed to be a tough street urchin; especially when we first meet her. Brave yes, but also half wild, rebellious, even violent. Uncouth and hot-tempered, and always getting into trouble.Street smart but not overly book smart. I didn't get ANY of that from the oddly sedate way they have chosen to portray her, which seems like an odd choice, especially as Dafne Keen was so good playing that exact kind of character in Logan. It seems so strange to me to drastically alter the entire characterisation and temperament of your lead character to such an extent, and as a result Lyra comes across as very flat, and you totally lose the Pygmalion vibe to how she interacts with Coulter.
Anyone else still watching this?
While episodes two and three were a definite improvement over the pilot, it just isn't really gelling for me.
While I fully understand that changes and compromises in terms of plot and structure will always need to be made when adapting a book for the screen (especially one as complex as this), I've got to question the wisdom of altering the actual lead characters to such an extent that they bear little to no resemblance to their book counterparts. Asriel comes across as really shouty and manic when in the books he is the epitome of composure and steely determination. Ma Costa (played in the series by Anne Marie Duff) is so vastly different in appearance and temperament from the character described in the book that I genuinely didn't realise who she was supposed to be until I saw the credits.
But the biggest problem of all for me is still Lyra. In the show she just comes across as really passive and dull, almost sullen - and shows none of the rebelliousness, grit, pluck, and simple force of personality that drives so much of the plot of the novels. A huge part of her character in the books is also her telling of tall tales and general trickstery, impish nature, which is something they're only paying the barest of lip service to. It's really hard to see how later key plot developments are going to work when the portrayal of the lead character is so lacking in these traits, and when the rest of the cast and the foundation for all of the key relationships are, imo, coming across as so flat and lifeless.
A lot of the acting just seems... quite bad - a lot of clunky, at times almost unintentionally funny line readings, not the standard of performances you'd expect from an HBO production, and some of the minor roles are especially poorly acted. I don't know if the problem is more to do with direction, writing and editing than the actors themselves, given that the cast is filled with very capable actors?
On a broader plot and writing level the show appears far more interested in overloading the viewer with exposition and lore at the expense character development. And by attempting to set up and over-explain every little thing about how the world works and the mysteries and higher concepts that come into play much later - the alternate dimensions, the Magisterium etc etc - they are actually making an already tricky to adapt story far more confusing and front-loaded than it needs to be.
If you boil the story down, all they need to really establish at this point is the nature of daemons, the Gobblers/rescue plot, and Lyra learning how to use the alethiometer, all of which they are really not nailing imo. The alethiometer in particular is being treated almost as an afterthought rather than, you know, something so central to the story that in some territories the book (and the 2007 movie) were literally named after it.
The title sequence is so amazing - just perfect - it's a shame that the rest of the show isn't living up to the promise of it so far.
Watching it with the girl child, who I read the book with, only up to episode 2 and its still fine with problems.
I only watched episode one. My overriding question was where all the animals were, considering every human was supposed to have their soul in one, right?
I'm completely unfamiliar with the books, and I'm rather enjoying this, to the extent of actually watching it 'live', which we almost never do with anything these days.
Next week we are meeting Iorek Byrnison and Lee Scoresby, and they have to get them right!
(Scoresby is being played by the guy from Hamilton.)
As a work of adaptation, the way they are haphazardly spilling information and willingly undermining what should be late-story reveals is so weird that, as a reader of the books, I can't really wrap my head around it or see the logic. Let's just say that 3 episodes into season 1, and they have already totally blown the biggest twists of the climax of both books 1 and 2. It's genuinely quite hard to see how the ending of this season will even work, or that the introduction of things like the Subtle Knife won't lose a lot of their impact now that theyv'e already shown characters hopping between dimensions willy nilly.
I'm sure the screenwriter is working to some sort of wider plan, but it's certainly an... interesting way to go about it.
I'm still watching this but frankly it's a little boring.
I can't say I'm particularly interested in the characters and as someone mentioned up thread - I keep wondering where all the animals are.
I also find the names of things so naff that it makes the whole thing seem a bit hokey - 'Gobblers?', 'Spy Flies'? - well naff (especially the spy flies which seem to be beetles rather than flies).
There are some good bits though (I like the evil monkey).
I'll stick with it in the hope it gets better.
Episode 3 was the best so far -- amazing what a good, driving narrative will do for an episode. The raid on Mrs. Coulter's apartment was particularly good. Hopefully this signifies a step up, because until now it's been watchable and good-looking, but weirdly dissonant.
Quote from: JamesC on 20 November, 2019, 08:34:29 AM
I keep wondering where all the animals are
In interviews (https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p07tw2g2), the writer, Jack Thorne, (https://www.imdb.com/name/nm2113666/) said he had to think very carefully about putting animals in a scene or giving them a line of dialogue, since that cost so much money. HBO money isn't Netflix money, apparently.
Quote from: Frank on 20 November, 2019, 08:57:46 AM
Quote from: JamesC on 20 November, 2019, 08:34:29 AM
I keep wondering where all the animals are
In interviews (https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p07tw2g2), the writer, Jack Thorne, (https://www.imdb.com/name/nm2113666/) said he had to think very carefully about putting animals in a scene or giving them a line of dialogue, since that cost so much money. HBO money isn't Netflix money, apparently.
Just give em a dog or a mouse from the pet shop. Job done.
Quote from: Frank on 20 November, 2019, 08:57:46 AM
Quote from: JamesC on 20 November, 2019, 08:34:29 AM
I keep wondering where all the animals are
In interviews (https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p07tw2g2), the writer, Jack Thorne, (https://www.imdb.com/name/nm2113666/) said he had to think very carefully about putting animals in a scene or giving them a line of dialogue, since that cost so much money. HBO money isn't Netflix money, apparently.
Not to mention the violence done to them in the first three episodes already. I've assumed they haven't focused on them too much because it's a hard sell to draw the kiddy-winks in with cute animal best friends only to see them throttled by a monkey or squished in someone's hand. And with more to come.
Well I'm loving it, and Phillip Pullman is happy with the adaptation - maybe he doesn't understand his own book.
Quote from: Dandontdare on 20 November, 2019, 12:56:51 PM
Well I'm loving it, and Phillip Pullman is happy with the adaptation - maybe he doesn't understand his own book.
Either that or he likes the money.
ooh, very cynical. I've heard/read a few interviews and he doesn't strike me as the sort of moneygrubbing mercenary who'd praise a bad adaptation just for the cash, he comes across as very sincere and thoughtful person who would tell the truth if he thought they'd got something wriomng - check out his interview on the Adam Buxton podcost.
I think we're seeing the "skywalker" effect here - some people get a VERY fixed idea about how something should look or feel, and if it doesn't exactly match up, they are quick to denounce them as "wrong".
I'm willing to trust the author (and my own enjoyment) than any naysayers.
Casting so far has been spot on IMO - though from the trailer, I'm very worried about LM Miranda as Lee Scoresby, but I'll hang fire, he may surprise me.
Yeah, Sam Elliott really was perfect casting for Mr Scoresby...
Quote from: Bolt-01 on 20 November, 2019, 04:52:38 PM
Yeah, Sam Elliott really was perfect casting for Mr Scoresby...
Yep this will certainly be a hard me to overcome. One of the few things I liked about the movie. The movie casting might also explain my issues with Ruth Wilson as Mrs C
Quote from: Colin YNWA on 20 November, 2019, 05:04:03 PM
Quote from: Bolt-01 on 20 November, 2019, 04:52:38 PM
Yeah, Sam Elliott really was perfect casting for Mr Scoresby...
Yep this will certainly be a hard me to overcome. One of the few things I liked about the movie. The movie casting might also explain my issues with Ruth Wilson as Mrs C
I'd have to rewatch it to be certain (and granted the TV show doesn't have the budget to stretch to A-listers like Nicole Kidman), but based on what I've seen of the TV show so far I
much prefer the movie versions of the characters on the whole. Except Ian McKellen as the bear. That was a bit weird. I wasn't bowled over by the actress who played Lyra in the movie but at least she had a little of book Lyra's feistyness compared to the rather glum TV show Lyra.
Looking forward to seeing LMM as Scoresby - big Hamilton fan so willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.
After a shaky start, I feel like the series is starting to find its feet - episode 4 was a big improvement.
Lin Manuel Miranda's Lee Scoresby gets an enthusiastic thumbs up from me, he injects a lot of charm and levity into a series that has (imo) been quite dull and really lacking in sparkle on the character front up to this point, and he even manages to coax a sense of fun and mischief out of Lyra. Iorek is brilliantly realised - love that he has a Scandi accent.
Yeah, I liked this one too. Definitely ramping up.
I reckon thEy spent more on Iorek than they did on the whole of WAR OF THE WORLDS.
I'm enjoying this a lot. That is all.
I had never heard of this before and decided to give it a go. I had no preconceived ideas about what it is, what given characters should be like or what plot points should or should not be addressed at any given point and am just viewing it as its own thing.
I have say I think it is great and is currently my favourite thing on TV.
I thought the opening episode was a master class in how to set up a world. I didn't mind the very brief expositional text at the start; it was certainly better than having some clunky dialogue explaining the daemons and hey texted based explanation are what Star Wars does and no-one seems to mind them.
The opening titles scream Game of Thrones to me.
I thought the 4th episode was the weakest so far; I'm not sold on the idea of talking animals. Daemons are one thing and talking bears another.
It's interesting to hear that the aleithiometer is central to the whole thing. I certainly don't want it to just be a convenient way for Lyra to know things she otherwise couldn't possibly.
Quote from: Magnetica on 28 November, 2019, 08:36:00 AM
I thought the opening episode was a master class in how to set up a world. I didn't mind the very brief expositional text at the start; it was certainly better than having some clunky dialogue explaining the daemons and hey texted based explanation are what Star Wars does and no-one seems to mind them.
Can't say I agree. By the end of the first episode it would have been obvious what daemons were, that they're attached to these people, that they're intelligent, that they're shapeshifters until they come of age, etc. All of that was handled just fine by the script.
With regard to Daemons talking - am I right in thinking that ep04 was the first time we saw a human respond to speech from a persons daemon other than their own (When Farder Coram spoke to Pan)?
Quote from: Magnetica on 28 November, 2019, 08:36:00 AM
I had no preconceived ideas about what it is, what given characters should be like or what plot points should or should not be addressed at any given point and am just viewing it as its own thing.
I'm in the same boat, but conversely it's taken me a while to 'get' it. Episode 1 didn't grab me at all, and while I thought episode 2 was much better the [spoiler]parallel universe[/spoiler]reveal killed my interest a bit, quite frankly (no surer way to kill my immersion in a brand new world than [spoiler]link it straight back to ours - I always planned to start reading King's Dark Tower books, for instance, right up until I found out they start going through portals to the real world's present-day Maine; ugh, no thanks. I'm looking for some
escapism, here![/spoiler]
Episode 4 was the one that finally 'got' me - it all clicked in my head, and this world is starting to excite me a lot more than it has so far. There was a real sense of high adventure and world-building that's got me dying to know more.
Quote from: wedgeski on 28 November, 2019, 11:33:39 AM
Quote from: Magnetica on 28 November, 2019, 08:36:00 AM
I thought the opening episode was a master class in how to set up a world. I didn't mind the very brief expositional text at the start; it was certainly better than having some clunky dialogue explaining the daemons and hey texted based explanation are what Star Wars does and no-one seems to mind them.
Can't say I agree. By the end of the first episode it would have been obvious what daemons were, that they're attached to these people, that they're intelligent, that they're shapeshifters until they come of age, etc. All of that was handled just fine by the script.
Yeah maybe, but at no point has there been any reference to the daemons being the embodiment of someone's soul. Maybe that
could have been inferred when the [spoiler] journalist died when her's was crushed in episode 2 [/spoiler] but then again that might just have been really confusing.
Well that's all pretty clear after episode5. Really enjoying this.
Quote from: Tiplodocus on 02 December, 2019, 11:10:16 PM
Well that's all pretty clear after episode5. Really enjoying this.
Yep. Obviously, if I'd seen The Mandalorian then that would be my favourite thing on TV, but I haven't, so this is.
Quote from: radiator on 04 November, 2019, 10:31:53 PM
It's so cool to see the BBC doing a big fantasy show like this to air in the run up to Christmas.
Would love to see them redo The Box of Delights - that would be incredible with modern visual effects.
As long as they don't follow the book slavishly and have [spoiler]him wake up and it was all a dream[/spoiler] - and that was after everything else had been resolved!
QuoteAs long as they don't follow the book slavishly and have...
Haha, yeah, always hated that cop out ending!
Don't know if it's just me but I found the last two episodes weren't as engaging as the first three.
And how come the big talking polar bear [spoiler]took his armour off before going into the danger zone?[/spoiler]
Quote from: Magnetica on 04 December, 2019, 07:02:35 AM
Don't know if it's just me but I found the last two episodes weren't as engaging as the first three.
And how come the big talking polar bear [spoiler]took his armour off before going into the danger zone?[/spoiler]
I wondered the same thing.
Because [spoiler]Lyra would likely fall off or get crushed between the plates. Or it would be too heavy for Iorek to run a long way in. [/spoiler]
Take your pick - think both of those are used in the book.
Quote from: Dark Jimbo on 28 November, 2019, 12:32:46 PM
Quote from: Magnetica on 28 November, 2019, 08:36:00 AM
I had no preconceived ideas about what it is, what given characters should be like or what plot points should or should not be addressed at any given point and am just viewing it as its own thing.
I'm in the same boat, but conversely it's taken me a while to 'get' it. Episode 1 didn't grab me at all, and while I thought episode 2 was much better the [spoiler]parallel universe[/spoiler]reveal killed my interest a bit, quite frankly (no surer way to kill my immersion in a brand new world than [spoiler]link it straight back to ours - I always planned to start reading King's Dark Tower books, for instance, right up until I found out they start going through portals to the real world's present-day Maine; ugh, no thanks. I'm looking for some escapism, here![/spoiler]
Minor Dark Tower series spoilers:
[spoiler]They don't go to Maine until book 6... Although there are excursions to New York before then. So I guess it amounts to the same thing, if you don't like that. It's done in a very interesting way though. Not the usual thing.[/spoiler]
QuoteEpisode 4 was the one that finally 'got' me - it all clicked in my head, and this world is starting to excite me a lot more than it has so far. There was a real sense of high adventure and world-building that's got me dying to know more.
Yeah, really enjoyed it but agree that they introduced a [spoiler]connection to our world too soon[/spoiler].
Didn't Stephen King [spoiler]write himself in The Dark Tower? Because a writer writing themselves into their fiction is a surefire way to put me off.[/spoiler]
Quote from: radiator on 05 December, 2019, 09:07:25 PM
Didn't Stephen King [spoiler]write himself in The Dark Tower? Because a writer writing themselves into their fiction is a surefire way to put me off.[/spoiler]
More DT spoilers, then I'll shut up as this thread isn't about that.
[spoiler]Yes, he did do that. I did find it kind of interesting... but I'd rather be hadn't in some ways. Overall thought it a good series though.[/spoiler]