The Political Thread

[broodblik]

Theodore Roosevelt once said: 'In any moment of decision, the best thing you can do is the right thing, the next best thing is the wrong thing, and the worst thing you can do is nothing'.

[Funt Solo]

"you think you got me with them bitch-ass roads, but I don't care about no motherfucking roads."

I don't have any point to make - I just like those words in that order.

[Professor Bear]

Same, tbh.

...it's really important to get him and Sharky in the same room and film what happens.

I don't want to be overly sensitive here, but are you guys suggesting this person as an opponent or an ally? Because, y'know, if it's an ally then, from the sound of it, I might as well chop off my thumbs burn my 'phone right now...

My inference is that you would not get along.

[The Legendary Shark]

I agree, Funt, my inaction has consequences. On a large scale, it's a flea bite on an elephant's arse, just one less pebble in the foundation. On a personal scale, I live in a shed with a Jack Russel and some spiders.

In a large part I guess it comes down to the lesser of two evils - a concept I understand voters the world over are familiar with - on the whole, does supporting the current system do more harm than good? I believe it is the former and so, personally, I feel compelled to withdraw all support.

I.P. and others seem to have a fair grasp of how the factions could work together to effect real and positive change and despair of the conditions preventing this. But maybe I.P. and his peers can somehow bring pressure for change from within the system and all power to them for trying. Maybe one day they'll clean things up enough to begin rekindling my interest. But my gut doesn't think this is likely and may not even be possible at all given how resilient to change entrenched establishments tend to be. But anything's possible, and even though I think trying to reprogram the dinosaur is a waste of time that doesn't mean it is. At the very least this approach hopes to keep blood off the streets, which grants instant validation in my eyes.

But.

In my world the struggle is to build local and global networks, with hierarches restricted as much as possible to cope with individual but interconnected tasks. It's about taking a step back and relying less and less on the Centralised Tit, promoting agorism and Austrian economics but, most of all, it's about me living a life I can live with.

And, who knows, with the statists working from within and the anarchists working from without, maybe we can form a crucible in which to forge a better system.

[Tjm86]

It's deeply worrying how many sensible people I know are starting to advocate the Farage-style flat rate (which would likely take a small number of lowish earners out of the tax system entirely, royally fuck anyone earning under about 60 grand and be a boon to anyone on six figures or more).

Right there is the biggest problem with the tax system.  It is obsessed with taxing labour.  Taxation is heavily skewed in favour of property / capital ownership.  (shit, I sound like a bloody Commie now!)


BTW Funt, I'm not sure I would completely agree with your position re voting.  I have this argument periodically with my mother who bangs on about the number of people who lost their lives fighting for our right to vote (no, not in the two world wars ...).

I get it on one level.  The problem is that with the British voting system as it stands right now too many people live in 'safe' seats.  You might as well piss into the wind for all the good voting against the incumbent party will do.

I would also argue that abstention / vote spoiling is a valid act. (spoiling more than abstention) It registers dissatisfaction with the options available.  If politicians cannot provide a convincing enough argument for people to vote for any of them that is on them too.

[The Legendary Shark]

Theodore Roosevelt once said: 'In any moment of decision, the best thing you can do is the right thing, the next best thing is the wrong thing, and the worst thing you can do is nothing'.

Unless doing nothing is the right thing.

[Definitely Not Mister Pops]

In the spirit of inventing your own reality; Qanon was a psyop intended to prevent multiple domestic terror attacks by convincing its adherents to stay home and "trust the plan".

[Funt Solo]

Here is one of them, staying at home and trusting the plan, just like it says on his shirt:

[IndigoPrime]

The problem is that with the British voting system as it stands right now too many people live in 'safe' seats.  You might as well piss into the wind for all the good voting against the incumbent party will do.

I would also argue that abstention / vote spoiling is a valid act. (spoiling more than abstention)

Both of those. Personally, I want to see representative voting and equal votes in the UK, the move towards heavily encouraging people to vote (although I'm unconvinced about compelling the act), massively adjusting the franchise, and also enabling people to legitimately and officially 'abstain' should they wish. So on that:

1. The Commons should be broadly representative of the popular vote. It's impossible for this to be exact, but it needs to be much closer than it is today. Various forms of PR can enable this to happen. Labour are the ongoing block to this happening.

2. The above creates a situation in which votes are much more equal. Safe seats would effectively be abolished. There might be safe list appointments (depending on the system decided upon), but even then there are mechanisms that can be implemented to eject someone from a list seat.

3. The franchise should ideally be expanded to all residents—the end. I can't imagine the British public going for that immediately, and so I'd suggest expanding it to existing franchise (despite its inherent WE HAD AN EMPIRE nature) and anyone with ILR. It's fucking insane that someone who rocks up from Canada, Kenya, South Africa or Vanuatu can vote in a general election, but a Spaniard who's lived here for 50 years cannot unless they spend thousands navigating the hideous citizenship application process.

4. Voting forms, while being redesigned, should have a little space for "fuck all of them", albeit possibly labelled very slightly differently.

[Funt Solo]

4. Voting forms, while being redesigned, should have a little space for "fuck all of them", albeit possibly labelled very slightly differently.

To quote the woman who first taught me how to tend bar, you could opt for "Shower o' c*nts" (which she always followed by, as an aside to me, because I was a bit more middle to her working "pardon my French").

[The Legendary Shark]

Let's say that voting system materialises and works as intended or thereabouts - will I have the right to abstain from going along with the winners' policies?

If not, what use or relevance does having a legitimate and official right to abstain from voting have?

[Funt Solo]

Let's say that voting system materialises and works as intended or thereabouts - will I have the right to abstain from going along with the winners' policies?

If not, what use or relevance does having a legitimate and official right to abstain from voting have?

Goes back to roads again - if you're not willing to join in the burden of payment (in a fair way) why should you be allowed to benefit from the results of said payment? You want to have your cake and eat it. Or, rather, you want someone else to buy your cake, which you will then eat, and then complain to the person who bought it for you that it's not even your favorite kind of cake.

I really want a slice of cake now.

[Tjm86]

Funt, you just described government policy on Brexit!   

Let's face it, at the end of the day there is never going to be a perfect political system.  People are involved.

Sharky certainly has an extreme position on the subject but at the end of the day he has a right to his viewpoint and to make a case for it.

I think its fair to say that he is unlikely to get converts in a hurry but at least he is consistent.

Of course it might be worth taking a moment to reflect that we are arguing the merits of various democratic systems on the forum of a comic that has built its reputation on the activities of a fascist.

[The Legendary Shark]

That's the point - I am willing to contribute in a fair way but not willing to be coerced in an unfair one.

I don't coerce people, especially not for money, because I don't believe I have the right (except, maybe, in extreme cases of self-defence where actual injury seems likely), and I suspect many others feel the same way at heart. So I expect the same respect from everyone else and reserve the right to resist anyone who thinks otherwise. That includes everyone from the local bully to the highest officer in the land.

[Funt Solo]

Sharky certainly has an extreme position on the subject but at the end of the day he has a right to his viewpoint and to make a case for it.

I agree 100%. If I think it's bollocks, I get to make that case as well. I often find myself back at square one, of course, so I'm not sure there's much point.

From my perspective the last few days of the politics thread went like this:

1. Thank f*ck Trump's not in power.
2. But there's no difference between Biden and Trump (the "shower o' c*nts" response).
3. Evidence is presented that there is a measurable difference, often widely effecting the proletariat.
4. But those differences don't amount to a hill o' beans in this crazy world, it is argued.
5. Shark doesn't like voting.

Replace steps #1-4 with anything you like and step #5 is always the same, and has nothing whatsoever to do with the preceding points.

Like you said: it's consistent. I'd be crazy to expect anything else, and yet, like a dog with bone, running along tax-funded road dreaming of cake...