I'm not enjoying the prog these days - and I know why.

[Colin YNWA]

Poll the readers on what they'd like to see EVERY week alongside Dredd.   Let this be the lineup for the year 2015 (I don't think for a minute this train can be turned around in less than a year.)  2015 should have two slots for recurring series that are in for damn near the whole year.  The other two slots kept as-is.

Uhh then 2000ad can do its own version of something else from popular media, the fan vote, interactive comics. I'm quite sure there would be all sorts of practical problems to prevent this but it all sounds such fun.

In many ways there's strong evidence for this type of thing working so well in the past. In the rocky days of the early 00s the addition of regulars Sinister Dexter and Nikolai Dante really turned the good ship around and got it moving in the right direction after what is often seem as the comics worst period in history. The thing is 2000ad has such a strong line up these days the pressure to do this type of thing just might not be there in the way it was in those dark days.

[flesario]

Brass Sun returns this week and I cannot remember anything about the last run apart from it's a big clockwork solar system. I often end up drifting away from strips for this reason.

[Colin YNWA]

But do you not think that this weeks episode of Brass Sun (if you have read it as a sub?) is a great example of how you don't need to have read all that's gone before. It brings you up to date brilliantly while still telling a good story. So many stories do that these days I don't get the problem. If they don't its just poor writing or a reader expecting to have ever detail of every little thing that's happened?

[JayzusB.Christ]

I'm not enjoying the prog as much as I used to either.  At first I thought I was getting too old for it, but now I see it's not just me.  I can't really add much to what's been said already - for me, it's mainly the lack of Dante (though of course he MUST NOT ever be brought back) and post DoC Dredd.

It's usually the way: If Dredd's good, the prog's good.  At the moment Dredd is just ok.  And it's mainly because of what's already been said here once again.  DoC had a magnificent ending but it just hasn't been addressed seriously enough for my liking.  Necropolis and the Apocalypse War paved the way properly for hugely interesting new directions for Dredd (Well, until Ennis came along, but now is not the time).  Dredd's kind of meandering at the moment when the potential for original and entertaining storylines is huge.

[TordelBack]

Brass Sun returns this week and I cannot remember anything about the last run apart from it's a big clockwork solar system. I often end up drifting away from strips for this reason.

I'd say that more suggests you likely didn't enjoy Brass Sun much last time (which is fine) - it was a very clear, very memorable story, with a handful of distinctive characters, and it hasn't been gone too long either (certainly no longer than the shortest gap between any series of prose novels). 

I know we all have limited time and innumerable distractions compared to when we were monomaniacal 10 year olds, but as readers we have to take some responsibility for paying attention and keeping track.  There's no model I can think of where creators can tell rich distinctive stories at any length without there being interruptions and some requirement to remember what happened previously - even if that is just grabbing a handful of back-progs or posting a query here.

[Frank]

Brass Sun returns this week and I cannot remember anything about the last run apart from it's a big clockwork solar system. I often end up drifting away from strips for this reason.

I'd say that more suggests you likely didn't enjoy Brass Sun much last time (which is fine) - it was a very clear, very memorable story, with a handful of distinctive characters, and it hasn't been gone too long either

Aye, Brass Sun had a pretty clear and simple storyline - I remember it being quite warmly received at the time, but loads of folk seem nonplussed by its return. I think the oddly anticlimactic ending might not have helped, but all the characters were really well drawn (literally and figuratively) and I'm delighted to see the return of the Duke.

Personally, I pretty much always start skim reading twelve part stories after about a month, then regain interest nearer the end or when I have a complete read through once they're completely done. Unless you're Wagner, or Mills on his best form, it's really difficult to hold any reader's attention for almost a quarter of a year.

That's one of the reasons I'm not fussed by the idea of 25 week residencies for strips, and the churn of six or 12 part stories means there's usually something new starting just as I'm losing interest in a strip which is bogged down in second act scenery moving.  Max Bubba/Rage is one of my favourite things ever, but I read it in my pal's back progs in a single sitting. I'm not sure if it would have completely held my interest all the way from November 1985 to September 1986.

[flesario]

I'm not a subber so will see re Brass Sun on Weds.  You're right Tordelback in that I should take on a little more responsibility re keeping track. What I would like is a paragraph summary of previous 'books' but accept even asking for that is fairly weak.

[Jim_Campbell]

Thing is, a couple of people have now objected to the idea of extended story arcs, and that's not what I'm talking about at all -- when Strontium Dog was in the prog for 30 weeks if the year, there'd be longer stories like The Killing, but also a lot of three and four parters. THIS is what I'm taking about.

Dante, is a bit of a red herring in this regard, being a long running semi-regular strip but nonetheless being a finite, self-contained storyline. I (and I think DrX) am taking about series that run like Dredd, with a combination of short and long stories adding up to a 6+ month run.

Cheers

Jim

[TordelBack]

What I would like is a paragraph summary of previous 'books' but accept even asking for that is fairly weak.

Not at all, that's perfectly reasonable.  My objection isn't to us all needing our ageing memories jogged, it's the idea that story-slots shouldn't rotate between a number of 'chaptered' stories. 

I'd be all for one 6 month residency slot, providing the other 3 slots are used for the 'book' model or one-offs and the like.  The problem there is that if you had more than a handful of candidates fro longer residency it'd be many years between repeat engagements.

Also: 6 months of Kingdom, yum!  6 months of Greysuit, kill me now.

[Fungus]

If they don't its just poor writing or a reader expecting to have ever detail of every little thing that's happened?

Bugger. This point I meant to include but got distracted. It's the writer's job to keep you interested. Simple as that.

Beyond that, Brass Sun started and ended inside the last year. For the full surround-sound experience, dig out the first part?

[The Enigmatic Dr X]

Thing is, a couple of people have now objected to the idea of extended story arcs, and that's not what I'm talking about at all -- when Strontium Dog was in the prog for 30 weeks if the year, there'd be longer stories like The Killing, but also a lot of three and four parters. THIS is what I'm taking about.

Dante, is a bit of a red herring in this regard, being a long running semi-regular strip but nonetheless being a finite, self-contained storyline. I (and I think DrX) am taking about series that run like Dredd, with a combination of short and long stories adding up to a 6+ month run.

Cheers

Jim

What he said. I'm talking the difference between nu-Who and a six part drama. Who is a setting. There are many takes on it, with many writers - but controlled by one writer. That is what Dredd or Stront is. THe drama, however, is over when it is over.

My point is this:

Where are the 2000ad stories that you don't need to know what has gone before in order to understand them?

[Grant Goggans]

If nothing else does, Absalom, Grey Area, and Indigo Prime are absolutely brilliant concepts for changing up between longer stories of 10-12 weeks and shorter ones, like the old classics did.  Indigo Prime especially.  It's got a cast of dozens, any of whom could take the lead for one or two weeks, building up our understanding of the agency and situations while also telling a neat, weirdo sci-fi story and developing more characters.  Do an 8-week story with art by Carter, a 2-part sidestory with art by A New Talent, a 10-parter by Bagwell, a one-off, then another longer story by Carter, etc.

And yes, I'd *happily* take six months of Greysuit if that meant we were getting Books 3, 4, and 5 back-to-back instead of over the course of four or more years!

Actually, one of the many big advantages to residency is this: if we assume that some of the writers behind these thrills have a long-term storyline in mind, with an *ending* to come, then giving the dang thing a residency every once in a while would clear the freaking deck for new thrills sooner.  I don't like these cases like The Red Seas, where we'd get eleven weeks one year, five the next, ten the next, and cliffhanger endings that don't get resolved for SIXTY PROGS.

I have no idea how the creative types feel about it, since they're all freelancers and maybe a short-term residency at 2000 AD simply isn't what they want, but if I were writing a series for 2000 AD and was thinking about long-term goals and storytelling, then the one-commission-at-a-time model - while possibly ideal for Rebellion - would drive me nuts.

Obviously there are controversial, reader-dividing series that really would not go over well if commissioned in bulk (Greysuit, Samantha Slade), and obviously there are other series where the creatives simply don't want the commitment since they have lots of other work (probably Richard Elson on Kingdom).  But something as incredibly popular and brilliant as Absalom, I still can't believe that the editor didn't call Rennie in for a meeting, determine exactly where he wanted to take this series long-term, and said "Gordon, I'd like thirty episodes now with an option for fifty more."

I know, I'm sorry, I'm usually super-positive about the comic, but apart from Trifecta, Dredd has been so incredibly disappointing post-DoC, and Age of the Wolf and The Ten-Seconders and Slaine (I cannot believe that Simon Davis is being pulled away from Ampney Crucis, which I love, for Slaine, which I don't!!) have just killed my enthusiasm.  I'm seeing so many missed opportunities lately, and it's disappointing me so much.

(Another one, incidentally, is the lack of digital collected stories.  Why the heck NOT bundle the previous outings for Damnation Station and Brass Sun for 2.99 each? )

[Grant Goggans]

Dante, is a bit of a red herring in this regard, being a long running semi-regular strip but nonetheless being a finite, self-contained storyline. I (and I think DrX) am taking about series that run like Dredd, with a combination of short and long stories adding up to a 6+ month run.

Dante fooled me in that regard, too.  I remember once, years ago, thinking of Dante as a character-led series and having Simon Fraser, on the old newsgroup, correcting me.  But while the creators and editors considered it a long-form serial, it still functioned like Sin Dex, Rogue Trooper, Slaine, etc did - lots of short one-offs (often with guest artists) fleshing out the epic by letting us know the characters.  That great series of short stories that paired Nikolai with each of his siblings, for instance.  There were three with Konstantin that were really memorable.

Heck, even though it was a big compromise that left the creators unsatisfied, breaking away from the four-book Tsar Wars for The Beguiling and Fiends was a terrific idea too.

[PsychoGoatee]

Wagner seems less interested in goofy sci-fi ideas than cop drama in general these days, but that's presumably offsetting the fact that the Dark Judges will be along in just a few months time to make everything very silly again.

I don't think it will be silly personally. The "grounded/fantastical" balance is an aspect to play with, but I don't think the out-there stuff is silly necessarily. This Death story looks pretty serious and terrific I'd say.

What I'm getting at is, where are the universes? The concepts and characters that are sandboxes, allowing a variety of stories to be told without the thing ending?

Dredd, Stront, SinDex, Slaine.

What about the last 15 years? What new ones have started?

They don't need to have the same creative team; they should be able to function with different inputs. They should, actually, thrive without them

I agree that it would be cool to see more longform stories that can last 20 years or more. Though I do think one writer could stay on for a whole series like that if they wanted, after all we have say Savage Dragon going over 20 years with one writer/artist. It can be done.

I agree a team of writers working together on books Dredd-style could also work well though, depending on the story.

I guess the question is, what is it that makes a series have lasting appeal? Such that it can have no end in sight and attract readers? Whatever it is, it'd always be nice to have more of that.

[PsychoGoatee]

Wagner seems less interested in goofy sci-fi ideas than cop drama in general these days, but that's presumably offsetting the fact that the Dark Judges will be along in just a few months time to make everything very silly again.

I don't think it will be silly personally. The "grounded/fantastical" balance is an aspect to play with, but I don't think the out-there stuff is silly necessarily. This Death story looks pretty serious and terrific I'd say.

What I'm getting at is, where are the universes? The concepts and characters that are sandboxes, allowing a variety of stories to be told without the thing ending?

Dredd, Stront, SinDex, Slaine.

What about the last 15 years? What new ones have started?

They don't need to have the same creative team; they should be able to function with different inputs. They should, actually, thrive without them

I agree that it would be cool to see more longform series that can last 20 years or more. Though I do think one writer could stay on for a whole series like that if they wanted, after all we have say Savage Dragon going over 20 years with one writer/artist. It can be done.

I agree a team of writers working together on books Dredd-style could also work well though, depending on the story.

I guess the question is, what is it that makes a series have lasting appeal? Such that it can have no end in sight and attract readers? Whatever it is, it'd always be nice to have more of that.