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A Song of Ice and Fire.*LOADS OF SPOILERS!*

Started by Definitely Not Mister Pops, 17 June, 2014, 05:22:06 PM

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Definitely Not Mister Pops

A thread for people who have read the books. I think in the interest of spoiler prevention, anything that hasn't been revealed at this point in the show should still be [spoiler]spoilered[/spoiler]. There are people who are just trailing behind the show with their book reading, so I wouldn't want anything spoiled for them. At the same time, there are parts of the earlier books the show hasn't covered YET, but could still bring them in later, maybe using different characters.

I want to talk about some theories regarding the parentage of Jon Snow. This is based on speculation from the facts revealed in the first 3 books alone, so if you haven't read them, don't read this. Again this is just speculation, there isn't any confirmation of any sort.

Various characters hear various reports about who Jon Snow's mother is, and they're all contradictory and inconclusive. It has been suggested that Jon Snow's mother is actually Ned Stark's dead sister, and Ned isn't the father at all, the Dragon Prince is. That makes Jon Snow half Targaryen and one of the possible Three Heads of the Dragon. The evidence comes from Ned finding his sister lying dead in a "bed of blood", but we never find out exactly how she died. Was it in child birth? Did Ned claim the child as his own bastard, to protect his nephew from Robert who swore to kill every Targaryen he could find?

There's also the Tyrion Targaryen theory, but that doesn't hold much water with me.
You may quote me on that.

Theblazeuk

My first thought was Jon is Robert's son. Black hair and all, which would make him well placed to be King in the North and the South (remember that the Targaryens were deposed, Dany wouldn't just walk back on the throne even if the Lannisters were taken out of the picture).

However the importance of that particular bloodline is diminishing over time and the introduction of more side characters and kingdoms.

I think it's unlikely about Tyrion! And I think/hope that whats-he-called secret dragon is just an unwitting dupe.

Definitely Not Mister Pops

Well, yes, he does have black hair, but so does Arya, which suggested to me it might be a female Stark Trait, and John inherited it, whereas Sansa and the rest of the Stark children seem to have more reddish hair from the Tully blood.
You may quote me on that.

Dark Jimbo

Quote from: King Pops on 17 June, 2014, 05:22:06 PM
I want to talk about some theories regarding the parentage of Jon Snow...

Various characters hear various reports about who Jon Snow's mother is, and they're all contradictory and inconclusive. It has been suggested that Jon Snow's mother is actually Ned Stark's dead sister, and Ned isn't the father at all, the Dragon Prince is...

Eh? How did you arrive at that conclusion? The number one suspect as far as Westeros is concerned is Ashara Dayne; we the reader are point blank told it was a common girl named Wylla. For me that was the most tragic bit of Eddard's death - the secret dies wth him and Jon can never know who his mother was.

It's a nice theory but holds no water - Catelyn takes against Jon partly because he's the spit of Eddard; '...every day he looked more like Ned than any of the trueborns sons she bore him.' So I can't see there's really any question of who either parent is.
@jamesfeistdraws

TordelBack

Quote from: Dark Jimbo on 17 June, 2014, 06:52:41 PM
It's a nice theory but holds no water - Catelyn takes against Jon partly because he's the spit of Eddard; '...every day he looked more like Ned than any of the trueborns sons she bore him.'

Which could also be the case if he was Ned's nephew.  My son looks more like his maternal grandfather and uncle than he does me (luckily for him) - and I'm reasonably sure there's no Targaryen business involved.

Definitely Not Mister Pops

#5
Quote from: Dark Jimbo on 17 June, 2014, 06:52:41 PM
Quote from: King Pops on 17 June, 2014, 05:22:06 PM
I want to talk about some theories regarding the parentage of Jon Snow...

Various characters hear various reports about who Jon Snow's mother is, and they're all contradictory and inconclusive. It has been suggested that Jon Snow's mother is actually Ned Stark's dead sister, and Ned isn't the father at all, the Dragon Prince is...

Eh? How did you arrive at that conclusion? The number one suspect as far as Westeros is concerned is Ashara Dayne; we the reader are point blank told it was a common girl named Wylla. s.


Because at the same time readers are told "point blank" second/third hand accounts of more recent events that have been perverted and misinterpreted through Chinese Whispers and hearsay. Accounts that vary wildly from the the first hand POV versions the reader is given. Gossip is commonplace in Westeros. There is a completely counterfactual account of the Red Wedding spreading around Westeros just days after it happened, Jon Snow was born almost two decades beforehand, and during another major war, so it's possible the accounts given aren't entirely reliable.
You may quote me on that.

I, Cosh

Got to say that's been my theory for as long as I can remember having one. Remember that we're told his mum is a common serving girl in a book which has, as a major plot point, the hereditary likeness of Robert's bastards while repeatedly pointing out that Jon looks more like a Stark than any of the rest. Add in the proverbial Ned Stark honour: what could be more honourable than accepting the smear on your reputation to protect thr child that your own best mate would either have to murder or accept as the rightful.

Plus, amongst it's many meanings, "Ice and Fire"clearly requires a union of Stark and Targaryen at some point.

I'm kind of assuming the end of the last book is Martin Playing with our inverted expectations of the worst now.
We never really die.

Dark Jimbo

Quote from: King Pops on 17 June, 2014, 08:34:34 PM
Because at the same time readers are told "point blank" second/third hand accounts of more recent events that have been perverted and misinterpreted through Chinese Whispers and hearsay. Accounts that vary wildly from the the first hand POV versions the reader is given. Gossip is commonplace in Westeros...

Point blank told because the Wylla story comes from Eddard's own lips. Granted though that doesn't leave out the possibility that he was lying, and I hadn't considered that being Eddard's nephew would still account for the resemblance.
@jamesfeistdraws

locustsofdeath!

You'd probably do well to visit: http://asoiaf.westeros.org/.

There's an entire massive thread dedicated to Jon Snow's parentage, and there are so incredibly in depth threads on...well, everything ASOIAF.

Colin Zeal

I agree that Jon's parents are Lysanna and Rhaegar. I think the books hints pretty heavily that something about the story we hear doesn't add up and remember that Ned never talks about who the mother is, not even to Robert.

One thing to remember though is that there was another person there in the Tower that day who hasn't been introduced to the story yet. Old Harlan Reed has a story to tell, and from the things Jojen and Meera say they clearly know more about Lyanna and Rhaegar than they let on.

radiator

Has anyone seen this mind-blowing fan theory about how it's all going to end? I think this guy has pretty much nailed it. I'm so convinced of it's accuracy that I'm going to spoiler it.

Basically, the theory revolves around the notion that the Others (White Walkers) are [spoiler]neither mindless nor evil, but are merely retaliating, having been provoked by mankind breaking the terms of an ancient treaty by, among other things, encroaching into their lands (the Wall was built to keep humanity in, and not keep the Others out). Azor Ahai, the legendary figure who ended the 'Long Night' thousands of years previous, was not a warrior, but a peacemaker who brokered the truce. The reincarnation of Azor Ahai - Jon Snow (who, as the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna - the Starks being distant kin of the Others - represents the unification of the dragonlords and the Others, Fire and Ice) - will not defeat the Others, but rather renew the terms of the treaty, sealing the peace with a marriage pact.[/spoiler] Unlucky, Jon.

The twist is that Danaerys is [spoiler]merely exacerbating the whole situation by bringing back dragons - mortal enemies of the Others - and will in turn become an antagonist who needs to be stopped, and not the saviour of Westeros. This also hits on the conspiracy, teased in A Feast For Crows, that it was the Maester's Guild who were behind the eradication of the dragons, as they posed a threat to the fragile peace.[/spoiler]

OK, so he might not be 100% accurate and there are still a few things that don't quite add up, but this whole scenario seems a damn sight more plausible to me than the usual hack fan-theory that 'Danaerys, Jon and Tyrion* team up and ride the dragons into a great battle and defeat the Others'.

It's a long old read, but it's definitely worth the time (if you don't mind potentially spoiling the ending, obvs), as well as the numerous comments which elaborate on the theory in really interesting ways and make lots of further interesting connections within the wider narrative.

*I'm still doubtful over this theory that Tyrion is also a secret Targaeryen (the son of the Mad King and Joanna Lannister). It's possible, and is certainly given creedence by a certain passage in The World of Ice and Fire, but it seems a bit too convenient. It also undermines the dynamic that Tyrion really was his father's son and heir apparent, but Tywin was too stubborn and blinded by hatred to see it.

https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/23p48r/the_true_nature_and_purpose_of_the_others_and_the/

Theblazeuk

I am skeptical about George RR Martin's ability to pull off a satisfying resolution after decades of treading water. I think the fan theories have hit upon most of his original ideas and even the ones he switched to afterwards - and all that will be left will be unsatisfying resolutions that only became necessary because everyone had years to go over this stuff and anticipate it, and the relevant threads all frayed away years ago amidst the morass.