No particular spoilers in this post, but I don't see the point of the entire thread being a mass of spoiler blocks. It's right there in the title. Steer clear until you've seen whichever is the current episode.
Well, it's great to have arguably the best thing on TV back for a new (albeit slightly shorter) series. A fantastic opening scene, followed by the usual series opener of careful set-up and a fair bit of what (presumably) is foreshadowing.
I'm already seeing the usual moaning from a small sub-set of (presumably amnesiac) fans who seem to forget every year that the awesome stuff at the back end of ever series only works because of the care the writers spend moving all the pieces into place in the early stages.
I'll make a point of mentioning that the character development of the Hound has been fantastic over the last few series: a brutal and brutalised man thoroughly confused by a moral transformation occurring almost against his will... it's just great, and Rory McCann handles it fantastically in this episode.
I can't wait for the next episode, and the only downer is that the series will be over all-too-soon, followed by another agonising year-plus wait for the finale.
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 18 July, 2017, 09:18:38 AM...and the only downer is that the series will be over all-too-soon, followed by another agonising year-plus wait for the finale.
-book reader plays Reynes of Castermere on tiny violin-
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 18 July, 2017, 09:18:38 AM
the series will be over all-too-soon, followed by another agonising year-plus wait for the finale.
The wait is what makes it so satisfying!
Really enjoyed this opener, nothing more to add except: GIANT ZOMBIES.
Quote from: TordelBack on 18 July, 2017, 09:23:18 AM
-book reader plays Reynes of Castermere on tiny violin-
I only have one book left to read now. Paused on my GRRM marathon to break it up with Abercrombie's The Blade Itself, which also manages (thus far) to invigorate what's a fairly tired genre, albeit with a very different approach. By the time I get back to Westeros, perhaps GRRM will have got his shit together...!
Blade Itself is the best post-GoT fantasy I've read, great characters start to finish. The trilogy as a whole maybe doesn't quite hold together as well as the first book, but by heck it rockets along. The follow-up (The Heroes) is coincidentally next on my reading mound.
Not a lot to add except I wish that the cameo's in the soldiers Arya finds weren't so easily recogniseable. This is the sort of thing I find distracting on a first watch.
However, it's wonderful to be back.
Yeah that cameo leapt out like a sore thumb. He wasn't even bad, it's probably just that he's everywhere these days that it just pulled me out of the episode way too much.
Didn't bother me any more than: "Look, it's JIM BROADBENT!" If he'd been shit, it would have been more of an issue, but he was OK. Perhaps it helps that I'm not that familiar with Ed Sheerhands.
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 18 July, 2017, 09:18:38 AM
I can't wait for the next episode, and the only downer is that the series will be over all-too-soon, followed by another agonising year-plus wait for the finale.
On the bright side, the episodes in this series are longer than in previous - amounting to a total of 57 extra minutes over the course of 7 episodes, so it's almost like we're getting an episode free. Seven and a bit hours in total - more than enough to keep us going until the finale next year (and of course much better that they take their time so that in ten years we can all watch it and appreciate the quality).
I had no idea any of the soldiers were celebs - was there another one who's famous?
Quote from: sheridan on 18 July, 2017, 12:37:15 PM
more than enough to keep us going until the finale next year
Game Of Thrones: season 8 may not arrive until 2019 (http://www.denofgeek.com/uk/tv/game-of-thrones/42666/game-of-thrones-season-8-may-not-arrive-until-2019)
Quote from: JOE SOAP on 18 July, 2017, 12:54:10 PM
Quote from: sheridan on 18 July, 2017, 12:37:15 PM
more than enough to keep us going until the finale next year
Game Of Thrones: season 8 may not arrive until 2019 (http://www.denofgeek.com/uk/tv/game-of-thrones/42666/game-of-thrones-season-8-may-not-arrive-until-2019)
I'm not worried about that - I'd much rather we had the best completed series for posterity than rush it at the last minute. Also gives me time to catch up on the books...
Personally, I thought the cameo in question was excruciating, and embarrassing for all involved.
Though I love GoT, since they started to diverge so drastically from the framework of the books* (around the end of season 4 by my reckoning) it's been a mixed bag. When it's bad, it's really bad - certain iconic book characters and scenes have been really sidelined and squandered imo, and certain plotlines have lost coherence and a sense of logic somewhat - but when it's good it's phenomenal (agree with the OP that, for example, anything with the Hound is generally superb).
*and I'm not so naive as to think a literal book-to-screen translation would be remotely possible. Though I've come round a lot on books 4 and 5 of the saga since rereading them, in many ways the show writers have done a very good job of taking two very unwieldy and arguably meandering tomes and curtailing/combining plotlines in a very skilled fashion.
QuoteI had no idea any of the soldiers were celebs - was there another one who's famous?
Not really, but one of them was played by Thomas Turgoose(?) - aka the instantly recognisable kid from
This Is England.
I've come to the conclusion that I have Daenerys. If it weren't for her invincible plot armour she would have been killed off long ago. My only hope that she is being set up for a massive fall as the series comes to it's conclusion. In the books Euron has a horn that can control dragons, it hasn't been mentioned in the show yet but could this be the present he's gone off to get Cersei?
Also you can see it's the beginning of the end for Cersei and Jamie. She's gone all Mad King / Hitler and he can see she's clearly losing the plot. Who will ally with them after the Sept of Baelor?
Not the best episode ever but a good opener getting all the players on the board...
This show proves you can make anything better by adding zombies.
Not going to watch until this and the next series are done
Not to derail the GoT stuff but I loved Abercrombie's books, though I reckon the three standalone 'World of the First Law' novels are better than the trilogy proper. I'd love to see his Shattered Sea series on TV first though.
Anywho - back to Westeros. Ok episode, feels weird to see all this stuff happening on screen long before the books after all that waiting.
I couldn't really get into Abercrombie's First Law trilogy. Think I got about halfway through Before They are Hanged before giving up.
Tbh, the only thing I liked about the books was Inquisitor Glokta, who's a really interesting and memorable character - I found all the other chapters - especially the ones about the fencing guy - fairly tedious.
So did no sod think to send some troops to claim Dragonstone after Stannis left - Cersei had the power to send Jaimie to poxy Riverrun to help the poxy Freys... the Iron Born could sail all the way to Essos...
It is perilously close to Kings Landing, not stuck in some backwater....
I was confused to see The Twins turn up in the credits, given Arya's opening action, but then I realised hapless ol' Edmure is going to have a very interesting season...
Quote from: Leigh S on 19 July, 2017, 07:58:06 PM
So did no sod think to send some troops to claim Dragonstone after Stannis left - Cersei had the power to send Jaimie to poxy Riverrun to help the poxy Freys... the Iron Born could sail all the way to Essos...
It is perilously close to Kings Landing, not stuck in some backwater....
Yeah, this crossed my mind too. It doesn't make any sense that such a strategically valuable fortress would simply be left empty.
But tbh, as the show hurtles towards the end, and major plotlines diverge wildly from the careful plotting of the books, logic and plausibility have somewhat gone out the window since around season 5...
Why would Stannis sacrifice his only living heir if his goal is to be king?
Why would the Boltons - an upjumped minor house with a tenuous claim on the North - immediately turn on the Lannisters with little to gain from doing so, and when they have only just forged an alliance?
What the hell is Littlefinger even up to in the North, and why did he think marrying Sansa to the Boltons would be a good idea? Isn't he supposed to be the mastermind behind basically everything that has transpired so far? What is his endgame here exactly? Chaos for the sake of chaos?
Why doesn't Jaime seem to be particularly bothered about the atrocity Cersei just committed?
How could Euron build 1000 ships in the space of a few months, on an island that has few trees or natural resources?
Why didn't the Lannisters immediately retaliate against the Martells for killing Myrcella?
If Alliser Thorne and his cronies' grievance with Jon was that he allowed the Wildlings through the Wall, wouldn't it have been a better idea to assassinate him
before he did that rather than after?
What possible reason (other than a contrived way of upping the drama) would Sansa have for not telling Jon about the Knights of the Vale before the Battle of of Winterfell?
Why did the Faceless Men have an inexplicable change of heart about Arya, and let her go after she killed the Waif?
Why does everyone seem to know exactly what everyone else is up to at the moment? For that matter, why does everyone assume Tommen committed suicide and was not murdered, when no one was there to see it happen?
...best just go with the flow and enjoy the ride.
Quote from: radiator on 19 July, 2017, 09:56:27 PM
Why would Stannis sacrifice his only living heir if his goal is to be king?
Because he was persuaded by Melisandre that destiny and the Red God required him to be king, the better to see off the coming darkness. His goal was never to establish a dynasty.
Quote
Why would the Boltons - an upjumped minor house with a tenuous claim on the North - immediately turn on the Lannisters with little to gain from doing so, and when they have only just forged an alliance?
What the hell is Littlefinger even up to in the North, and why did he think marrying Sansa to the Boltons would be a good idea? Isn't he supposed to be the mastermind behind basically everything that has transpired so far? What is his endgame here exactly? Chaos for the sake of chaos?
All explained in this scene: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dcs4lnXebY
Roose was persuaded by Baelish that the Iron Throne was weak (which made sense at that point, with Tommen just crowned), that Cersei had lost power to Margaery (who favoured Sansa and would bless the match), and that consolidating his power in the North was most important. Marrying Ramsay to Sansa legitimised his rule as King in the North, which is the largest and most powerful of the Seven Kingdoms (so not a jumped-up little house any more). Baelish, meanwhile, explained his strategy quite clearly to Cersei at some point: pit opposing forces against each other and move in to mop up the remains. Here he wanted to put Stannis against Boltons, then use Lannister forces to move in and become King in the North. This is consistent with his modus operandi since season one.
Quote
Why doesn't Jaime seem to be particularly bothered about the atrocity Cersei just committed?
Give it time. He's been hopelessly in love with Cersei since he was a kid, he can't just turn on her immediately.
Quote
How could Euron build 1000 ships in the space of a few months, on an island that has few trees or natural resources?
Yeah. Poor scripting there. They could easily have had him return with a big fleet and just add a few more ship to it. No way round this one.
Quote
Why didn't the Lannisters immediately retaliate against the Martells for killing Myrcella?
What with High Sparrow etc, they had a few other things on.
Quote
If Alliser Thorne and his cronies' grievance with Jon was that he allowed the Wildlings through the Wall, wouldn't it have been a better idea to assassinate him before he did that rather than after?
Alliser Thorne spent his entire life defending the rules. It takes a lot of time and conspiring to overcome that.
Quote
What possible reason (other than a contrived way of upping the drama) would Sansa have for not telling Jon about the Knights of the Vale before the Battle of of Winterfell?
She didn't trust Baelish to actually bring them until they arrived.
Quote
Why did the Faceless Men have an inexplicable change of heart about Arya, and let her go after she killed the Waif?
I think Jaqen had a serious soft spot for her: it was the Waif who insisted she be allowed to kill Arya. In that last scene, Arya had a sword to his heart, which also may have helped his decision.
Quote
Why does everyone seem to know exactly what everyone else is up to at the moment?
Ravens got faster, and there are things people don't know - nobody knows about the Brotherhood, or who killed the Freys, etc.
QuoteFor that matter, why does everyone assume Tommen committed suicide and was not murdered, when no one was there to see it happen?
Nobody else in his heavily guarded apartments, and nobody would dare accuse Cersei of such a thing.
To further what Dudley has said, Stannis believed he was the reincarnation of Azor Ahai, the Prince who was Promised. Azor Ahai, a figure from legend, had defeated the White Walkers using the sword Lightbringer. This sword could only be forged through the sacrifice of something very dear to him and to temper (?) the blade he had to run it through his wife's heart. Stannis sacrifice of Shireen in order to fulfill this prophecy should maybe be viewed within this context.
The Boltons are not an up-jumped minor house, while they are not the biggest of the Northern houses they are an old house. Even though they are widely disliked they are still Northerners and the other Northern Houses are more likely to follow them or pledge allegiance to them than Stannis or any of the Southern houses. Roose Bolton saw an opportunity and took it. The marriage of Sansa and Ramsey was of course to secure the Northern alliances and put on official stamp on their rule. Re: Ramsey it is quite unbelievable that Baelish did not know about Ramsey's proclivities prior to the engagement. This man prides himself on knowing everything. Littlefinger's ultimate aim is to sit on the Iron Throne and everything he has done works towards this aim while getting revenge on his enemies at the same time.
I think in this episode we saw a glimpse of Jamie's changing feelings towards Cersei. We've known for a while that her lust to rule has warped her but he's only starting to see it. Her refusal to discuss or mourn Tommen's death, instead calling him a traitor , was a major alarm bell. Her only redeeming feature in the past has been her devotion to her children and without that she's Mad King II. Jamie killed Aerys to stop him using wildfire on the city and Cersei has crossed a line with her actions at the Sept of Baelor. She's clearly deluded re: the power she actually wields and he tried explaining this to her - that she rules 3 kingdoms at best and they have no allies. Who is going to want to ally with her now? Only the even crazier and power hungry Euron who will cut her throat the first chance he gets.
Timing in the show has just gone all over the shop in the past few seasons. Euron's fleet is a great example of that but another issue is how everyone knows everything at the same time. There's no way to track where people are in relation to each other. Well we can assume that Sam's montage occurred before Dany landed at Dragonstone but Jon has just been declared King in the North and immediately receives a raven from Cersei demanding he travel south to bend the knee. I don't think that ravens have gotten faster and with the weather getting worse surely they would get slower. While there are things that people don't know at the end of this episode they are all bound to know by the end of the next episode. Maybe it's just bad editing - but it is confusing : are the plots running concurrently?
Before Jon agreed to let the Wildlings through the wall, the Nights Watch were busy trying to defend the wall from them - maybe they just didn't have time to plot rebellion.
As for the Knights of the Vale, Baelish wouldn't give help without some caveat attached. He helped Sansa before and the price was her marriage to Ramsey maybe she was reluctant to ask for his help again?
I think the Faceless Men let Arya go because the Many Faced God required a new face and she provided one, it didn't have to be hers. She paid her debt and was allowed to leave. Also maybe they are aware of some duty that Arya must perform at a future date and this is why they trained her.
Re: Tommen. Truthfully it doesn't matter to Cersei anymore. It had been prophesied by Maggy the Frog that all of Cersei's children would die so she knew after Myrcella died that Tommen's days were numbered.
One alternative is that all the stuff in the North actually happened after Cersei blew up the High Sept.
I think the show could be improved by an indication of where different plots are in the general time line.
I also just thought of something .. the prophesy regarding the death of Cersei's children said that three of her children would die. She took this to mean her children with Jamie but she also had a child with Robert that died at birth or was still born. This could mean that Tommen might have lived had he not been driven to suicide by his mothers actions...
QuoteTo further what Dudley has said, Stannis believed he was the reincarnation of Azor Ahai, the Prince who was Promised. Azor Ahai, a figure from legend, had defeated the White Walkers using the sword Lightbringer. This sword could only be forged through the sacrifice of something very dear to him and to temper (?) the blade he had to run it through his wife's heart. Stannis sacrifice of Shireen in order to fulfill this prophecy should maybe be viewed within this context.
None of this context is in the TV show though (have they even specifically mentioned Azhor Ahai?), and it is firmly established that Stannis is
obsessed with the line of succession. I also don't think Stannis ever truly personally believes in all this prophecy stuff anyway. The burning of Shireen came totally out of left field. To be clear, I believe that Stannis
will burn Shireen in the books, eventually (the show writers implied that this plot point came direct from Martin), but I think the circumstances will be very different (and will make a lot more sense).
QuoteShe didn't trust Baelish to actually bring them until they arrived.
That isn't a satisfactory explanation. She still had no reason to not mention even the possibility to Jon. It's just plain weird.
QuoteAlliser Thorne spent his entire life defending the rules. It takes a lot of time and conspiring to overcome that.
Again, this isn't really an explanation... Thorne had a clear opportunity to deny Jon and the Wildlings entry, but he let them in, then assassinated Jon
after the fact. It doesn't make any sense.
QuoteAll explained in this scene:
No it isn't. That scene is just a band aid to paper over some shoddy writing. Roose Bolton wanted the Starks gone, the war to be over, and to be Warden of the North (he never wanted to be 'king', and this is never mentioned). He achieved all of this. Why then immediately risk it all by defying the Lannisters? It's far more likely that the Boltons would simply murder Sansa as her being alive presents a clear challenge to their hold on the North.
Quotethe North, which is the largest and most powerful of the Seven Kingdoms (so not a jumped-up little house any more)
Largest, yes. Most powerful? No - the South is infinitely wealthier and more powerful. And yes, while the Boltons are in ascendency at this point, they very much
are an upjumped minor house, on a level with the Freys - and like the Freys, the Bolton's newfound power is wholly reliant on the backing of the Iron Throne. There's no way they'd risk open war with the South for some nebulous gain, when murdering Sansa would consolidate their claim just as much as marrying her into the family.
QuoteLittlefinger's ultimate aim is to sit on the Iron Throne and everything he has done works towards this aim while getting revenge on his enemies at the same time.
For the first few seasons, yeah - he engineered a war so he could personally profit from the chaos and was always one step ahead of everyone else. But now? He's taking out of character, reckless risks and has ended up in a far weaker and more vulnerable position than he's ever been. It's very hard to discern what his endgame is from here, or how being stranded in the frozen North, as a tentative ally of the Starks, gets him any closer to the throne...
Quote from: radiator on 20 July, 2017, 05:45:10 PM
None of this context is in the TV show though (have they even specifically mentioned Azhor Ahai?)
You're right, it's not mentioned within the context of the show you could just see Shireen's death as the big sacrifice required in order to capture Winterfell. I think Stannis absolutely believed he was Azor Ahai right up until he lost the battle and Brienne killed him. His obsession with the succession was because he *was* Robert's rightful heir - the children with Cersei are all Jamie's and Renly was the younger brother who thought he should be king because people liked him more. Stannis should have been Westeros rightful King but he was more concerned with securing his place on the throne than creating a dynasty. He felt overlooked by Robert and then he was overlooked by events. It may be cruel to say it but Stannis could have remarried and had more children. We'll have to wait and see what direction the book goes.
QuoteIt's very hard to discern what his endgame is from here, or how being stranded in the frozen North, as a tentative ally of the Starks, gets him any closer to the throne...
Well he appears to be causing trouble with Jon / Sansa, he is in effect the ruler of the Vale until Robin reaches his maturity and we have been given some clues that he knows the truth about Lyanna and Rhaegar so he may know about Jon's parentage. As the White Walkers converge on the wall once again Littlefinger is in the thick of it and who knows what trouble he will stir up. He may be only giving the appearance of being in a weakened position to put other characters at ease.
This thread has gone a bit quiet for the past two weeks, funny considering all the stuff that's been going on this series.
This last episode was a bit good, wasn't it? Finally showing [spoiler]some of the things that have been promised since the very first episodes, from the first time we were told about a Targaryen using dragons to burn a city and shown three dragon eggs being given to a Targaryen soon after to Drogo promising a horde to reclaim Westeros not long after that[/spoiler].
I absolutely loved the last two episodes.
However I don't understand why Dany [spoiler]didn't do a drive by and burn more of the Lannister men when they were all neatly lined up instead of just burning one small section in the wall. Also I believe it was grain in those wagons she burned as the gold was already through the gates so now there is no food for anyone and Winter is coming [/spoiler]
This weeks episode was action packed but sadly too short. I definitely could have done with another ten minutes.
The most surprising thing that might come out of this is that [spoiler]Jamie drowns off screen in his armour.[/spoiler] but that's highly unlikely. Or is it?
I read a review that noted your second spoiler would likely have happened if the book's author was in control, but he isn't, so it won't. As for the episode, that battle was a bit good on the whole – despite inevitable cop-outs in a few people being lucky (I'm being charitable) – and the timing of things now essentially being incoherent. If you're running multiple storylines simultaneously, it doesn't really help when one spans hours, one spans days, and another spans weeks.
It would be very surprising if that did happen but also kinda brilliant as we've had no main characters die since? ....Who was the last main character to die?
I don't think this will happen because of the Valonquar prophecy ... but you never know ..
Quote from: Rara Avis on 08 August, 2017, 12:39:09 PM
It would be very surprising if that did happen but also kinda brilliant as we've had no main characters die since? ....Who was the last main character to die?
I don't think this will happen because of the Valonquar prophecy ... but you never know ..
I was expecting at least one of the main characters to die in the last few minutes, but nothing we've seen on screen conclusively says anyone has (and even when we do see someone conclusively die, they might come back, if [spoiler]Melisandre[/spoiler] is around).
There was much shouting at the TV in the Bolt-house last night watching that episode.
[spoiler]Can't believe that Jamey will be killed like that (if indeed he will be) so I expect he'll be taken captive by Danaerys & co.[/spoiler]
Quote from: Rara Avis on 08 August, 2017, 09:08:25 AM
The most surprising thing that might come out of this is that [spoiler]Jamie drowns off screen in his armour.[/spoiler] but that's highly unlikely. Or is it?
If he were intended to die he would've just been allowed to [spoiler]roast in dragon flames rather than pushed into the drink[/spoiler].
QuoteValonquar prophecy
...which, if you remember did not happen in the TV show, only the books.
But yeah, I agree with the others - there's no way [spoiler]he's dead - he still has stuff to do in the story.[/spoiler]
It was a phenomenal scene - probably the most impressive sequence in the entire series to date, but a bit weird for them to spend so much resources on a [spoiler]scene that ultimately didn't have any substantial events - ie no important characters died[/spoiler]. I was sure for a minute there that [spoiler]Bronn was about to go out in a blaze of glory and take the dragon with him, but in the back of my head I was thinking that if they're going to kill one of the dragons, it won't be Drogon[/spoiler].
As great as that scene was, the earlier 'cave' scene was pretty embarrassing...
QuoteWell he appears to be causing trouble with Jon / Sansa, he is in effect the ruler of the Vale until Robin reaches his maturity and we have been given some clues that he knows the truth about Lyanna and Rhaegar so he may know about Jon's parentage. As the White Walkers converge on the wall once again Littlefinger is in the thick of it and who knows what trouble he will stir up. He may be only giving the appearance of being in a weakened position to put other characters at ease.
Again, none of this satisfyingly answers the question of what the hell he's doing, why it's worth the risk or how it benefits him or any kind of coherent plan. Littlefinger was a mastermind for the first few seasons, and we've seen time and again how he has directly profited from the events he helped create (it's implied in the books that he precisely orchestrated the War of the Five Kings so that it would end with him in control of the Vale, the only region not devastated by the war, and it's speculated that the arrival of the White Walkers - the one thing he couldn't forsee - will lead to his doom), whereas in the show, he's just been pointlessly hanging around Winterfell, waiting for one of the Starks to figure out he betrayed Ned and take him down.
Getting [spoiler]roasted by a dragon is such an honourable way to die as opposed to just drowning inyour armour[/spoiler], no?
Quote from: JOE SOAP on 08 August, 2017, 01:46:27 PM
If he were intended to die he would've just been allowed to [spoiler]roast in dragon flames rather than pushed into the drink[/spoiler].
I was sure there was a scene where Cersei is talking about her visit to Maggy the Frog and she tells someone about the prophecy. I know in the flashback at the opening of Season 5 it's not mentioned but I was sure this was in the tv- sphere as well because let's not forget that valonqar means [spoiler]little brother and as she was born first, Jamie is technically her younger brother too[/spoiler]
It would be very George if that did happen though. This is like [spoiler]Arya and her jump in the river last season[/spoiler]
By the way, I loved seeing [spoiler]Arya back in Winterfell but she was so smug in her fight with Brienne I was glad when she got booted in the chest[/spoiler]. I'm concerned with the way the character is being written. The writing started getting sloppy towards the end of last season and it looks like it's continuing. Part of the affection I had for the character was [spoiler]her[/spoiler] vulnerability but now that [spoiler]she's a full on battle trained ninja face stealing warrior she's[/spoiler] turning into a bit of a dick.
That final scene was good but it was no [spoiler]Battle of the Bastards[/spoiler]
Yes the cave scene, such convenient [spoiler]graffitti[/spoiler]
Littlefinger could just possibly [spoiler]be trying to gain the Stark children's confidence so he can betray them at a later date. We saw him this episode sucking up to Bran because he thought he was Lord of Winterfell. Another possiblility is that he is spending time with the Northerners and Vale people simply so he can study them, learn their weaknesses and exploit that at a later date. Maybe he's just still there because the Vale men and others want to stay and make sure that the castle is Winter ready. [/spoiler] We just don't know yet. None of the Starks's would have figured out his plan or what's he done , that is expect the Stark that is now the Three Eyed Crow.
Quote from: radiator on 08 August, 2017, 04:36:21 PM
...which, if you remember did not happen in the TV show, only the books.
Again, none of this satisfyingly answers the question of what the hell he's doing,
No, that specific part of the prophecy was entirely cut for the TV show adaptation - I'm guessing because it's hard to convey it's meaning and significance without the book's ability to convey Cersei's thoughts and fears on screen, and perhaps because it signposts future twists too much.
On Littlefinger, we'll just have to agree to disagree. I totally get that he's trying to play Sansa and Jon against each other - I'm just saying I can't really see a convincing reason for him doing so.
As far as I'm concerned, very little Littlefinger has done (in the TV show) since murdering Lysa Arryn has made a lick of logical sense, nor will it pay off in any satisfying way, and a once all-powerful 'mastermind' type figure has been totally defanged as a result. I also suspect that his little speech to Sansa in last week's episode is pretty much the writers giving up and trying to cover up this fact with some vague nonsense about 'fighting every battle in your mind'. I may be proved wrong, but I doubt it.
OK if you say so, it can be very confusing keeping track of book GoT and tv GoT.
I just don't see his character petering out (pardon the pun). Maybe he's just there so he can be exposed for what he's done. I see him going out with a bang!
Quote from: Rara Avis on 08 August, 2017, 12:39:09 PM
It would be very surprising if that did happen but also kinda brilliant as we've had no main characters die since? ....Who was the last main character to die?
I don't think this will happen because of the Valonquar prophecy ... but you never know ..
Off the top of my head, I can't think of anybody since [spoiler]Tommen[/spoiler] and [spoiler]Hodor[/spoiler].
They weren't main characters though, they never really had their own seperate story arcs but they were important characters.
I guess [spoiler]Stannis [/spoiler]was the last main character to die?
Quote from: radiator on 08 August, 2017, 04:36:21 PM
It was a phenomenal scene - probably the most impressive sequence in the entire series to date, but a bit weird for them to spend so much resources on a [spoiler]scene that ultimately didn't have any substantial events - ie no important characters died[/spoiler]. I was sure for a minute there that [spoiler]Bronn was about to go out in a blaze of glory and take the dragon with him, but in the back of my head I was thinking that if they're going to kill one of the dragons, it won't be Drogon[/spoiler].
I wouldn't say it didn't have a substantial event - this is, after all, the [spoiler]return of Targaryen and draconic warfare to Westeros. Up til now the average Westerosi has believed dragons to be merely the stuff of legends and stories. Assuming the Lannisters can't keep it secret (and most other news in Westeros travels at unrealistic speeds for the mediaeval / dark age mileau) then the cat will be out of the bag[/spoiller]. Just wait until the Westerosi in the street gets a load of the White Walkers.[/spoiler]
It's worth noting that Dany rides dragons and doesn't believe in the White Walkers ...
Quote from: Rara Avis on 08 August, 2017, 09:10:22 PM
It's worth noting that Dany rides dragons and doesn't believe in the White Walkers ...
She'll come around...
Quote from: Rara Avis on 08 August, 2017, 09:10:22 PM
It's worth noting that Dany rides dragons and doesn't believe in the White Walkers ...
Protestants believe implicitly in the existence of God and the possibility of their redemption through Christ's sacrifice on the cross, but utterly reject transubstantiation. Belief's a funny thing.
It just seems ridiculous to me that she's riding around on the back of a dragon and yet doubts the existence of a zombie army.
The preview for next weeks shows Jon getting close up wit Drogon, I wonder if it will recognise his [spoiler]Targaryen blood?[/spoiler]
QuoteIt just seems ridiculous to me that she's riding around on the back of a dragon and yet doubts the existence of a zombie army.
Erm, but it's all relative, isn't it? Yes, in our world, dragons are fantastical, but in the universe of Game of Thrones, their existence is an accepted fact, which no one disputes. The dragonlords ruled Westeros for hundreds of years, there's dozens of dragon skulls in the cellars under the Red Keep - whereas Wights and White Walkers haven't been seen south of the Wall in
thousands of years, and have passed into myth and legend as a consequence.
QuoteMaybe he's just there so he can be exposed for what he's done
That's exactly my point.
Well like Sheridan said she'll come around soon enough ..
Re: Littlefinger, we don't know why he's still in Winterfell but it doesn't necessarily mean that the writers have run out of story for him and he's just waiting around for the truth to come out. I'd be very disappointed if that's what happened. Maybe he'll be the main character to die this season in a suitably ironic way?
Quote from: Rara Avis on 09 August, 2017, 04:54:51 PM
Maybe he'll be the main character to die this season in a suitably ironic way?
The rather pointed passing of looks between him and Arya seemed to suggest that he might need to watch his step around her.
Perhaps he'll be choked to death by his little finger.
By rights he should die when one of his schemes backfires on him ... maybe the Vale men will find out that [spoiler]he pushed Lyssa out the moondoor and Robin will finally get to make someone fly ... or Jon Snow might lop his head off the way Ned's was in Season 1 ... [/spoiler], there are so many ways to die in Westeros. Can we agree that we don't think he'll make it to the end of the series?
Also read an interesting theory online that maybe when all is said and done Cersei will be the one to command the Westerosi forces and that she will ultimately become the hero proving that the ends justify the means... interesting no?
Quote from: Rara Avis on 09 August, 2017, 03:47:01 PM
It just seems ridiculous to me that she's riding around on the back of a dragon and yet doubts the existence of a zombie army.
The preview for next weeks shows Jon getting close up wit Drogon, I wonder if it will recognise his [spoiler]Targaryen blood?[/spoiler]
It took me a bit of working out to establish that he's (probably) [spoiler]Arya and Sansa's cousin, and Danyris' nephew[/spoiler].
Quote from: Rara Avis on 09 August, 2017, 08:04:05 PM
Also read an interesting theory online that maybe when all is said and done Cersei will be the one to command the Westerosi forces and that she will ultimately become the hero proving that the ends justify the means... interesting no?
Not heard that one before - it'd certainly confound expectations if Ma-Ma came out on top. Now thinking of Cersei taking some Slo-Mo and being pushed out of the moon door...
Credit due to Headey's acting skills, when I watch GoT I completely forget that she was Ma Ma.
@ Sheridan, yeah the idea is that at the end of the series she comes out as the hero as she is the only one left to mount the defence against the White Walkers. If this happens we'll see that the series was about her all along. Pretty interesting way for it to go considering how despised she currently is however the last few episodes have shown her to be a pretty incredible military strategist.
She was also Queen Gorgo in 300.
(https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/84/d5/b7/84d5b72fee8669dcfbbfb10d91db3f20--antik-yunan-fantasy-dress.jpg)
Quote from: Rara Avis on 10 August, 2017, 04:55:16 PMhowever the last few episodes have shown her to be a pretty incredible military strategist
Depends who's doing the strategy – her or her brother (or – perhaps likely – both).
Well that remains to be seen but it does look like Jamie takes a backseat to her so I am willing to give her the credit. Although they did get Ser Tarly on board and he was mentioned to be a renowned strategist so maybe it was him?
At the start of the season I really thought she was going to be fucked but she is making Dany look like a rank amateur.
Well, Dany IS a rank amateur – as is Tyrion.
Well tbf Dany did take out the Dothraki 'high command' (for want of a better phrase) on her own recognisance. Everything else she achieved was because of the dragons iirc.
Tyrion was the mastermind of the Battle of the Blackwater while Cersei at that point was planning on poisoning her children.
Cersei, or Jamie or both have really upped their game this season. She's got the kingdom out of debt with the Iron Bank, neutralised the Dornish and Highgarden threats, forged an alliance with the Iron Islands leaving only the Riverlands up for grabs. Dany only holds Dragonstone (or held) as of the last episode.
I've been flying Flag Cersei for a while now... In comparison to a lot of other characters, what has she really done wrong? Jaimie pushed Bran out the window, he's the sodding King Slayer - Joffrey killed Ned, Cersei was just as pissed as everyone else.
She has overlooked Joffrey's poison true, and has made some pretty ropey tactical errors in previous series but is she really any worse than anyone else?
She did have Robert killed (thus triggering the war in the first place) and blew up every motherfucker in the Sept of Baelor. Whilst I'd agree that that the High Sparrow and his Faith Militant fuckers had it coming, there was a fair amount of collateral damage there...
Plus, now that I think about it, the entire mess with the Faith only came about because Cersei saw an opportunity to destroy Margaery, which got somewhat out of hand...
Well, I don't feel too bad about her killing Robert - he kind of had it coming! Plus, I'm pretty sure that wasn't Cersei acting alone there. She couldn't have expected the war to come from that. Similarly, she was right to move agaisnt Margaery - she could see that for what it was - a counter plan much like her own to grab the power via marrying into it. As for the Sept of Baelor, you reap what you sow - I choose violence!
This video - a deep dive into the character of Cersei - is well worth a watch.
Fair warning - it discusses both book and TV show portrayals of the character, and though the TV adaptation has now outpaced where the books are at (the last Cersei chapter in the books to date is her 'walk of shame') it does go into pretty deep speculation about where her story is ultimately headed that might constitute potential spoilers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5TX2aLdB4s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5TX2aLdB4s)
Also, all this guy's other Game of Thrones videos are pretty great.
Quote from: radiator on 12 August, 2017, 07:14:50 PM
Fair warning - it discusses both book and TV show portrayals of the character, and though the TV adaptation has now outpaced where the books are at (the last Cersei chapter in the books to date is her 'walk of shame') it does go into pretty deep speculation about where her story is ultimately headed that might constitute potential spoilers.
Nah - speculation isn't spoilers - unpublished/unbroadcast events are only spoilers if it's someone who has actual insider knowledge on what's about to occur.
Well it's all a bit good so far, isn't it?! [spoiler]Utterly loving the way it's shaping up, and HUGE losses to the roster already! Ballsy indeed![/spoiler]
I think Alt Shift X is the best GoT channel on youtube. It can take a while after each episode for the breakdown but they were worth waiting for. A really great analysis of each episode that adds on content from the books.
Quote from: radiator on 12 August, 2017, 07:14:50 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5TX2aLdB4s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5TX2aLdB4s)
Also, all this guy's other Game of Thrones videos are pretty great.
Important stuff happening this week! Weird episode I thought. After the excitement of last week this seemed like another filler episode, in fact I might describe the whole season as a filler season. Nice to see Jon Snow and Drogon hitting it off and [spoiler]not only has it been confirmed that Jon is the son of Rhaegar, it's now been confirmed that he's not a bastard because Rhaegar annulled his first marriage and wed Lyanna. This makes him 'Da King in Da Norf an Da Souf'[/spoiler].
Not sure the capture a walker is the greatest plan- couldnt they make one instead? Bring a dead guy up to the wall and let him turn, as we saw when Mormont and Snow got attacked all that time ago...
Though on that point, the wall stops them getting past, but if thats the case, how did those walkers come into being? And I ahve memory of them sending a bit of a zombie to Kings Landing before (but it rotting away before anyone could see it?)
PPlus, Cersei has her own undead, so would she be particularly convinced by seeing a smaller version (not that anyone knows that I suppose)
Making a wight is a much better idea than catching one.
The walkers would be dead Wildlings, Caster's male children and other people that live on that side of the wall.
Yes but Ser Robert Strong obeys her and is brainwashed to be her personal bodyguard.
I've been watching a few videos online and there is speculation that [spoiler]Thormund[/spoiler] will die in the next episode. Please no!
Think the only one's to come back from the wall for sure are Jon, Jura and the Hound. I think all the rest are doubtful and I reckon Tormund and young Gendry are toast.
This is the stupidest plan, but the shot of the seven walking out was awesome.
QuoteNot sure the capture a walker is the greatest plan- couldnt they make one instead? Bring a dead guy up to the wall and let him turn, as we saw when Mormont and Snow got attacked all that time ago...
Nope. It takes a White Walker's magic to raise the dead - corpses don't just spontaneously spring up. As far as I understand it, the incident back in season one you're referring to wasn't happenstance - it was a premeditated White Walker plot to assassinate the Lord Commander using their undead stooges.
I still agree that it's a stupid plan though.
QuoteThink the only one's to come back from the wall for sure are
My money is on [spoiler]Jon and Gendry coming back. Why make such a big deal of bringing Gendry back to kill him off in the very next episode? Also, story-wise, the Northern army really needs a blacksmith to forge some Valyrian steel blades for them, he has still got to reunite with Arya, and I also suspect Gendry - as the heir to House Baratheon - will figure significantly into the post-war, post-Lannister power structure of the Seven Kingdoms.
The Hound I think has a 50/50 chance of survival - I think he has substantial plot armour because, like Bronn, he's a standout fan favourite character and the writers obviously like keeping him around. Pretty sure that Jorah, Beric, Thoros and Tormund are all goners - I'd be amazed if any of them come back. Jorah in particular has 'heroic sacrifice' written all over him.[/spoiler]
Can you believe HBO managed to air/leak the next episode themselves. They say it was an accident but I think they just couldn't wait to show it because [spoiler]UNHOLY FUCK![/spoiler]
Quote from: JOE SOAP on 17 August, 2017, 12:48:42 AM
because [spoiler]UNHOLY FUCK![/spoiler]
Indeed, fantastic episode.
Out of all members of The Magnificent Seven, I'm particularly glad that [spoiler]Jorah[/spoiler] survived.
There has just been too much invested in the character, including [spoiler]his recent recovery from an otherwise death sentence.[/spoiler]
A very predictable final scene- but in the most satisfying way.
Quote from: JOE SOAP on 17 August, 2017, 12:48:42 AM
Can you believe HBO managed to air/leak the next episode themselves.
? It was the Spanish TV station, not HBO?
Quote from: sheridan on 21 August, 2017, 02:57:58 AM
Quote from: JOE SOAP on 17 August, 2017, 12:48:42 AM
Can you believe HBO managed to air/leak the next episode themselves.
? It was the Spanish TV station, not HBO?
They were 2 European HBO channels (http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/tv/news/game-of-thrones-season-7-episode-6-leaks-online-full-hbo-spain-torrents-download-reddit-watch-jon-a7895636.html).
While all the incident was very exciting, and [spoiler] showing us that the Dragons are not the answer to the Night King and indeed a liability[/spoiler], the idea that [spoiler]Gendry could run back (just how far out where they supposed to be?) and get a raven all the way to Dragonstone in how long, for Dany to ride to the rescue?[/spoiler] I'm assuming this would take days if not weeks? Westeros seems to shrink with every season.
More distractingly, I'm not getting the transformation of [spoiler]Arya into pyscho nutjob [/spoiler] much - Firstly, it makes no sense characterwise, and it is also the most stupid plot of Littlefingers - all it takes is for Arya to tell Sansa where the note came from and thats before either of them twig he is the culprit in the first place! I'm assuming this is all some misdirection - as my wife said, it paints women as really stupid if they are just carrying old sisterly feuds. The bag of plastic faces was about as convincing as Delgado's old stock...
While it is all pelting the story to interesting places, I can't help but think with 10 episodes and some more logical and organic plotting, I might be a bit more onboard than I am at the moment. Possibly the lack of Cersei has affected my judgement!
Quote from: Link Prime on 20 August, 2017, 05:25:49 PMA very predictable final scene- but in the most satisfying way.
I hope when
Viserion [spoiler]ejects its cold breath upon the land it comes out as ice-cubes[/spoiler].
Quote from: Leigh S on 21 August, 2017, 11:10:37 PM...the idea that [spoiler]Gendry could run back (just how far out where they supposed to be?) and get a raven all the way to Dragonstone in how long, for Dany to ride to the rescue?[/spoiler] I'm assuming this would take days if not weeks? Westeros seems to shrink with every season.
Alan Taylor does a
Rumsfeld (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GiPe1OiKQuk) –
[spoiler]
"We were aware that timing was getting a little hazy," Taylor told Variety. "We've got Gendry running back, ravens flying a certain distance, dragons having to fly back a certain distance...In terms of the emotional experience, [Jon and company] sort of spent one dark night on the island in terms of storytelling moments. We tried to hedge it a little bit with the eternal twilight up there north of The Wall. I think there was some effort to fudge the timeline a little bit by not declaring exactly how long we were there. I think that worked for some people, for other people it didn't. They seemed to be very concerned about how fast a raven can fly but there's a thing called plausible impossibilities, which is what you try to achieve, rather than impossible plausibilities. So I think we were straining plausibility a little bit, but I hope the story's momentum carries over some of that stuff."[/spoiler]
http://variety.com/2017/tv/news/game-of-thrones-season-7-episode-6-beyond-the-wall-timeline-director-1202534403/
Quote from: JOE SOAP on 22 August, 2017, 12:27:03 AM
Quote from: Link Prime on 20 August, 2017, 05:25:49 PMA very predictable final scene- but in the most satisfying way.
I hope when Viserion [spoiler]ejects its cold breath upon the land it comes out as ice-cubes[/spoiler].
DRACOLICH = More than a powerful form of undead, a dracolich was a dragon who had voluntarily tied its soul to a phylactery, freeing itself from death. A type of lich, the creature's spirit could possess any dead reptilian body, usually their original form, and retained all the powers and abilities of the former body. That meant a dracolich had the supernatural fear aura, spells, and breath weapon it had in life, plus the terrible might of the undead.
(http://i68.tinypic.com/2vnjngm.jpg)
Can't Drokkin' wait for next week.
Actually, Taylor's response does make sense in terms of light the further you go north, as anyone who's been towards the Arctic Circle would know. That all said, the timing of events per se didn't really bother me –[spoiler]they weren't that far away from the wall, and so it's conceivable the entire thing happened in two or three days, with the gang somehow not freezing to death on the rock[/spoiler], but it was [spoiler]dues ex machina a go go – not sure we really needed the second one[/spoiler].
Quote from: Leigh S on 21 August, 2017, 11:10:37 PM
While all the incident was very exciting, and [spoiler] showing us that the Dragons are not the answer to the Night King and indeed a liability[/spoiler]
A) Kind of but B) Could have started the strafing run just slightly up the hill and GAME OVER.
Actually- did Dani actually get one of the Dragons to flame at a Wight Walker? We saw the Night King walk through flames, but presumably they were the remnants of the burning horde, not actual Dragon fire...
[spoiler]Shame Dennis Pennis died- I liked his character...[/spoiler]
Spoiler free, but here's how I think it works: http://pjholden.tumblr.com/post/164478217683/how-do-the-ravens-do-it
-pj
Quote from: pauljholden on 22 August, 2017, 10:32:56 AM
Spoiler free, but here's how I think it works: http://pjholden.tumblr.com/post/164478217683/how-do-the-ravens-do-it
-pj
Ha! Excellent stuff PJ.
The timing stuff undermined that for me, but the thrust of it was all well and good. More troblesome is the Arya/Sansa/Littlefinger stuff, which is infuriating for all the wrong reasons - more proof that Cersei deserves the win!
Quote from: lincnashOZ on 22 August, 2017, 12:50:10 AM
Quote from: JOE SOAP on 22 August, 2017, 12:27:03 AM
Quote from: Link Prime on 20 August, 2017, 05:25:49 PMA very predictable final scene- but in the most satisfying way.
I hope when Viserion [spoiler]ejects its cold breath upon the land it comes out as ice-cubes[/spoiler].
DRACOLICH = More than a powerful form of undead, a dracolich was a dragon who had voluntarily tied its soul to a phylactery, freeing itself from death. A type of lich, the creature's spirit could possess any dead reptilian body, usually their original form, and retained all the powers and abilities of the former body. That meant a dracolich had the supernatural fear aura, spells, and breath weapon it had in life, plus the terrible might of the undead.
(http://i68.tinypic.com/2vnjngm.jpg)
Can't Drokkin' wait for next week.
Skyrim had mentally prepared me for the magnificent concept of unread dragons.
Speaking of which- anyone else reminded of the frozen lake scene with Naaslaarum & Voslaarum when watching this episode?
Quote from: Leigh S on 22 August, 2017, 10:48:08 AMMore troblesome is the Arya/Sansa/Littlefinger stuff, which is infuriating for all the wrong reasons
The Arya/Sansa narrative makes no sense whatsoever right now, unless the writers have now decided that [spoiler]both of them are idiots, or they're playing him[/spoiler]. The former would be deeply unfortunate; the latter doesn't seem terribly likely, though, given the lack of nuance in GoT narrative pathways right now. (They're arranging pieces on the board for the final season. No big surprises likely coming in terms of casting at this point.)
The timing didn't seem like too much of a fudge to me.
I assumed they were about half a day's trek from the wall. Bearing in mind they were carrying heavy weapons and were moving slow and cautiously because of poor visibility I'd say they were no more than 10-12 miles from the wall. I don't think they were planning to be out overnight as they had no camping provisions.
I reckon the run back to the wall could be made in about 3 hours considering conditions.
Say 10 hours to get a Raven to Danearys (I think a raven can sustain an average speed of about 30mph, so that's 300 miles. Not sure how far it's supposed to be?) and another 8 hours to get a Dragon up north (I'm guessing Dragons fly faster than ravens).
That's 21 hours - so say they got attacked early afternoon and got rescued the next morning.
This is all fairly conservative. I'm willing to believe the super-courier-ravens and dragons can fly at twice that speed and that a few more hours passed. It keeps things well within the realms of believable implausibility for me.
Yeah, in terms of pure A to B we might be talking a day or so, but logistically, for Gendry to be able to describe what and where things were happening to a degree that Danyreas would know jsut where to fly to.. if it was that easy to see the Army of the Dead, Snow should have just convinced her to go for a day out with her!
Also, the Night King seems very well informed of things - where Snow is, that Dragons will be on their way to arm against them (and if not, why not just kill Jon Snow and his band with the ice spear superweapon? I woul presume they didnt just swim over as they wanted the dragons to turn up as part of a plan to kill them. I think it is the pile on of either unlikely coincidences or unlikely planning that feels a bit off, and when added to the timings, everything seems just bit too convenient. They have giant chains for dragging out the body, so we can assume they planned for this, but there was no reason not to kill Snow there and then with the weight of dead they had. The spectacle was great, but to be honest I'd have preferred less dead - maybe 100 or so, and a single walker with his spear thing - at least initially - arguably, with them stranded there for a day, the night King could have shown up when he heard - does he have his own three eye raven - possible I suppose!
Isn't the suggestion the Night King himself has similar powers to the Three Eyed Raven, in that he can foretell possible futures, and scoot about the place virtually, checking out what's going on? And he doesn't give a fig about Snow – I imagine he wanted [spoiler]a dragon to burn down the wall[/spoiler].
Yeah, I don't think there's anything that can't be explained away with a bit of creative thinking. I certainly wouldn't want the writers to have to explain exactly how everything is done.
For example - finding the army. The dragons are flying predators so it seems reasonable that they may have eyesight comparable to a bird of prey. In which case I have no trouble believing they could pinpoint a large gathering from miles away. Or maybe they just have Jon Snow's scent.
As for the spears - why wouldn't a marching army be carrying them?
The chains are a bit more of a stretch but assuming there's a time jump between the battle and the dead returning to retrieve the dragon, not outside the realms of possibility.
The chains could have been salvaged from the abandoned Wildling settlement, similarly used by the Giants and Mammoths in Watchers on the Wall.
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 22 August, 2017, 09:49:57 AM
Actually, Taylor's response does make sense in terms of light the further you go north, as anyone who's been towards the Arctic Circle would know. That all said, the timing of events per se didn't really bother me –[spoiler]they weren't that far away from the wall, and so it's conceivable the entire thing happened in two or three days, with the gang somehow not freezing to death on the rock[/spoiler], but it was [spoiler]dues ex machina a go go – not sure we really needed the second one[/spoiler].
I think they marked passage of time through just enough beat changes to make the wait work. The pacing's a bit quicker than the average GoT episode but it did the job of conveying the wait while sustaining the tension throughout. No mean feat.
Can [spoiler]dragons be legitimately considered a
deus ex machina[/spoiler] in this case? They've been set-up and defined so clearly over the course of the series and didn't just [spoiler]come out-of-the-blue beyond the wall without their earlier summoning by Jon Snow's message and Daenerys' flight from Dragonstone after Tyrion's pleas to stay.[/spoiler]
Perhaps not deus ex machina, then, but the [spoiler]nick of time save[/spoiler], which doesn't surprise when you do it every bloody time (and, in this episode, twice in two minutes).
Also, [spoiler]why are we all[/spoiler] adding [spoiler]spoiler tags[/spoiler] to this [spoiler]thread[/spoiler], which is clearly marked as having [spoiler]spoilers[/spoiler]? How odd.
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 22 August, 2017, 03:10:16 PM
Also, [spoiler]why are we all[/spoiler] adding [spoiler]spoiler tags[/spoiler] to this [spoiler]thread[/spoiler], which is clearly marked as having [spoiler]spoilers[/spoiler]? How odd.
Someone may have complained at one time or another. I'm happy to drop them.
Quote from: IndigoPrime on 22 August, 2017, 03:09:18 PM
Perhaps not deus ex machina, then, but the [spoiler]nick of time save[/spoiler], which doesn't surprise when you do it every bloody time (and, in this episode, twice in two minutes).
Benjen would almost qualify as a
deus ex machina since his appearances have been few and far between; it worked for me in as much as it is an unexpected but welcome return, but I suspect Bran had a part in that being set-up since he scouted the place with ravens – maybe we'll find out later. That kind of piling on of tropes on top of tropes doesn't bother me
– it can work in their favour – as the situation was more about aligning certain characters with their realisation of the stakes, and of course an excuse for some big action.
As I said to a colleague, I thought it was half amazing (the visuals, the zombie bear etc) and half extraordinary silliness. It's honestly getting quite hard to reconcile what I'm watching with the relatively grounded show I started watching back in season 1.
And no, that's not because of all the zombies, dragons and magic swords (I understand the saga's trajectory from low to high fantasy), I'm talking about how sloppy the writing has gotten. They've just totally and utterly given up on any sense of logic or plausibility, and it's a real shame. The timeline thing totally threw me off - even my girlfriend, who is the most casual of GoT watchers, remarked on how absurd it was, and I'm increasingly rolling my eyes at all the implausible heroic deeds, last-second rescues and miraculous escapes. This show used to be rooted in some sort of reality, where a dagger in the back or a simple miscalculation could bring down any of the big hitters, character's inability to communicate across distances was a major cause of conflicts, and characters couldn't teleport across continents willy nilly.
The part with them getting trapped on the incredibly convenient frozen island was borderline Peter Jackson Hobbit trilogy ridiculous, as was 'Gendry, you're the fastest'. The completely out of the blue arrival of Benjen was the icing on the silliness cake, and even the B story with Sansa and Arya is hard to take seriously.
On the plus side, I'm glad Beric Dondarrion made it - for some reason he's one of my favourite characters and I really like the actor playing him on the show. Sad to see Thoros go (again, one of my favourite characters/actors) but at least he got a good exit.
Also, if the zombie dragon brings down the wall, it will (to me) break the story, as it means that it will now be entirely Jon, Dany and Bran's fault.
I think people are using spoilers to allow others to catch up on the most recent episode especially after two leaks.
Thinking out loud .. what if Viserion is not under the control of the Night King somehow? Or can be freed from his control ... No one knows how the wall was built .. what if ice dragons were used to make it ...
The show has certainly become more bombastic and action packed. That's been offset by less sex and nudity. I'm fairly happy that as the world changes from a fairly grounded reality into one where dragons, witches, resurrection and zombies are a physical reality the tone of the show moves from political machinations towards high action and adventure.
That characters had time to plan and plot shows how the world has changed. Characters like what's-his-face with the little birds and little finger himself have been almost sidelined as the big players don't have time for the scheming any longer - it's all about force: Jon's physical prowess, Dani's sheer command of power and Cersi's ruthlessness.
I'm not sure the Sansa/Arya thing is so stupid either. The sisters were almost polar opposites to begin with and now they both have power but in very different ways. They both, to some extent, support Jon and I see their power games almost as sparring - saying to one another 'if you mess this up I'll get you'. It may seem silly and counterproductive but most family disagreements tend to.
I think Littlefinger overestimates his influence and I wouldn't be surprised if he gets his comeuppance at the hands of both sisters. I think the Starks will come together when it counts.
(http://www.futurequake.co.uk/imagebucket/davepersonal/DondarianWeb.jpg)
One of my favourite characters of late. He's got no real idea what's going on, and is taking it all on faith... just like we are.
Quote from: radiator on 22 August, 2017, 04:35:01 PM
The part with them getting trapped on the incredibly convenient frozen island was borderline Peter Jackson Hobbit trilogy ridiculous, as was 'Gendry, you're the fastest'. The completely out of the blue arrival of Benjen was the icing on the silliness cake, and even the B story with Sansa and Arya is hard to take seriously.
How strange - I was just comparing the two today. Yeah I totally agree with you Radiator it's jumped a shark this series no mistake.
Also -
Quote from: Bolt-01 on 22 August, 2017, 07:46:00 PM
One of my favourite characters of late. He's got no real idea what's going on, and is taking it all on faith... just like we are.
:lol: :lol:
Quote from: JamesC on 22 August, 2017, 12:50:48 PM
The timing didn't seem like too much of a fudge to me.
I assumed they were about half a day's trek from the wall. Bearing in mind they were carrying heavy weapons and were moving slow and cautiously because of poor visibility I'd say they were no more than 10-12 miles from the wall. I don't think they were planning to be out overnight as they had no camping provisions.
I reckon the run back to the wall could be made in about 3 hours considering conditions.
Say 10 hours to get a Raven to Danearys (I think a raven can sustain an average speed of about 30mph, so that's 300 miles. Not sure how far it's supposed to be?) and another 8 hours to get a Dragon up north (I'm guessing Dragons fly faster than ravens).
That's 21 hours - so say they got attacked early afternoon and got rescued the next morning.
This is all fairly conservative. I'm willing to believe the super-courier-ravens and dragons can fly at twice that speed and that a few more hours passed. It keeps things well within the realms of believable implausibility for me.
Unfortunately it's a bit further than 300 miles. As you might expect, somebody's done the maths (https://www.reddit.com/r/freefolk/comments/6u75t3/lets_do_the_math_on_how_long_it_would_take_a/) (it's probably just short of 2,000 miles).
Well that's it then - totally ruined for me now. :lol:
I think we have to assume the Night King DOES need the dragon to get through - otherwise, why is he pissing about on the other side of the wall for season after season.
It follows that he is having as many visions as Bran about the future and is acting accordingly (or perhaps more interestingly, he is sending/feeding off/reading the visions of others, including the Hound/dany/Bran/Melisandre etc. - If you could read the visions of the "good guys", you wouldnt need any of your own! :p
Maybe there will be a message about self fulfilling prophecies and the danger of Faith and all that - probably not, but I like it as a concept.
Quote from: JamesC on 22 August, 2017, 09:25:44 PM
Well that's it then - totally ruined for me now. :lol:
:D
The other part of the calculation was how long the ice would take to freeze over to be thick enough for an army to cross - about three or four days. That person was less optimistic on Gendry's running time (six hours as opposed to the three hours mentioned further) and missed the opportunity to assume a dragon could fly faster than a raven.
But why do they need it to freeze to cross it - they can't be scared of a bit of water? they got those chains on Viserion, so someone went for a dip
Quote from: sheridan on 22 August, 2017, 10:23:46 PM
Quote from: JamesC on 22 August, 2017, 09:25:44 PM
Well that's it then - totally ruined for me now. :lol:
:D
The other part of the calculation was how long the ice would take to freeze over to be thick enough for an army to cross - about three or four days. That person was less optimistic on Gendry's running time (six hours as opposed to the three hours mentioned further) and missed the opportunity to assume a dragon could fly faster than a raven.
Quote from: Leigh S on 22 August, 2017, 10:34:56 PM
But why do they need it to freeze to cross it - they can't be scared of a bit of water? they got those chains on Viserion, so someone went for a dip
I thought the point established at Hardholme was that the dead can't cross water, otherwise they could just go around the Wall.
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 22 August, 2017, 10:51:12 PM
Quote from: Leigh S on 22 August, 2017, 10:34:56 PM
But why do they need it to freeze to cross it - they can't be scared of a bit of water? they got those chains on Viserion, so someone went for a dip
I thought the point established at Hardholme was that the dead can't cross water, otherwise they could just go around the Wall.
That would make sense or they could just get a boat, but we see a few scrabbling up to get Tormund, and they get chains around Viserion, so they can at least enter it... He could have jsut ordered them to form a big dead sand bank across!
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 22 August, 2017, 10:51:12 PM
I thought the point established at Hardholme was that the dead can't cross water, otherwise they could just go around the Wall.
A vulnerable position for an army without boats. I presume they're waiting for the water to freeze fully so they can pass around the end of the wall "The Bay of Ice" in larger numbers.
Quote from: JOE SOAP on 22 August, 2017, 11:20:56 PM
A vulnerable position for an army without boats. I presume they're waiting for the water to freeze so they can pass around ends of the wall in larger numbers.
The sea freezing when winter properly hits has seemed an obvious solution for getting the Walkers and their army past the Wall, but that's always struck me as a little prosaic. My previous pet theory was that Dany would bring down the wall, simply because she 1) has dragons capable of doing it, and 2) a family tree chock full of despotic nutters. This latest episode has caused me to... revisit this theory.
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 22 August, 2017, 11:26:42 PM
This latest episode has caused me to... revisit this theory.
I suspect it's coming down at the end of this season...maybe.
I generally switch off the old brain and enjoy it for the entertaining show that it is.
Childhood D&D games bought to life with CGI (and rude bits ;))
But the cheesy "character A or B is toast ........ oohh saved" does get a bit old.
(http://i63.tinypic.com/5frn7b.jpg)
Map from the Aussie Gov-mint official website.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-08-22/game-of-thrones-chat-episode-6-recap-beyond-the-wall/8825748
For once they spend my taxes on something decent. :lol:
Quote from: lincnashOZ on 23 August, 2017, 08:09:10 AM
I generally switch off the old brain and enjoy it for the entertaining show that it is.
Childhood D&D games bought to life with CGI (and rude bits ;))
But the cheesy "character A or B is toast ........ oohh saved" does get a bit old.
(http://i63.tinypic.com/5frn7b.jpg)
Map from the Aussie Gov-mint official website.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-08-22/game-of-thrones-chat-episode-6-recap-beyond-the-wall/8825748
For once they spend my taxes on something decent. :lol:
G.R.R. Martin famously doesn't put a scale on his maps, but for some rough context, the wall is 300 miles long.
If you're going to travel, travel by map. It is, as the Muppets proved, the quickest way. :P
Though the books do a great job of conveying Westeros as a truly vast place that feels like a real continent, I long ago had to adjust my conception of it for the TV show and just imagine that it's roughly the size of England. It's the only way it can make any kind of sense.
So, predictions for the finale:
[spoiler]All the major players converge on KL for 'peace talks' with Cersei (this is where we hear Jon's dialogue from the trailer about how 'our two families once fought together' - he's addressing Cersei), but Cersei doesn't care about the Wight (she has one working for her remember) and instead, tries to murder everyone using the Mountain and/or Wildfire. The Hound will finally overcome his fear of fire to kill his zombified brother using a flaming sword, maybe sacrificing himself in the process. Things come to a head between Jaime and Cersei (no doubt involving Brienne in some capacity) and Jaime ultimately ends up seeing the light, killing Cersei and himself.
Meanwhile in Winterfell, Sansa and Arya get over their contrived drama (this is where we'll hear Sansa reciting Ned's proverb about Stark unity "The lone wolf dies, but the pack survives" that featured in the trailer), and Sansa kills Littlefinger with Chekov's Valyrian dagger.
Jon + Dany get it on at some point.
The Night King uses zombie dragon to bring the wall down as a cliffhanger for the final season.[/spoiler]
Quote from: radiator on 23 August, 2017, 04:18:26 PM
Though the books do a great job of conveying Westeros as a truly vast place that feels like a real continent, I long ago had to adjust my conception of it for the TV show and just imagine that it's roughly the size of England. It's the only way it can make any kind of sense.
So, predictions for the finale:
[spoiler]All the major players converge on KL for 'peace talks' with Cersei (this is where we hear Jon's dialogue from the trailer about how 'our two families once fought together' - he's addressing Cersei), but Cersei doesn't care about the Wight (she has one working for her remember) and instead, tries to murder everyone using the Mountain and/or Wildfire. The Hound will finally overcome his fear of fire to kill his zombified brother using a flaming sword, maybe sacrificing himself in the process. Things come to a head between Jaime and Cersei (no doubt involving Brienne in some capacity) and Jaime ultimately ends up seeing the light, killing Cersei and himself.
Meanwhile in Winterfell, Sansa and Arya get over their contrived drama (this is where we'll hear Sansa reciting Ned's proverb about Stark unity "The lone wolf dies, but the pack survives" that featured in the trailer), and Sansa kills Littlefinger with Chekov's Valyrian dagger.
Jon + Dany get it on at some point.
The Night King uses zombie dragon to bring the wall down as a cliffhanger for the final season.[/spoiler]
When first discovering GoT, Westeros being the size of England made sense to me too.
One thing I know for sure, the Millennium Raven from Eastwatch made the Dragonstone run in less than twelve Parsecs.
[spoiler]Jon and Dany in Luke and Leia action :-[/spoiler]
1. just eeewwww :o
[spoiler]2. Not probable, remember Dany's reaction to wounded Jon's firm grip and puppy dog eye's.[/spoiler]
Arya/Sansa and Night King predictions = you hit the nail on the head there.
Quote from: lincnashOZ on 23 August, 2017, 08:34:16 PM
[spoiler]Jon and Dany in Luke and Leia action :-[/spoiler]
1. just eeewwww :o
[spoiler]So Jaime and Cersei not bothered you? [/spoiler]
Quote from: Goaty on 23 August, 2017, 08:41:12 PM
Quote from: lincnashOZ on 23 August, 2017, 08:34:16 PM
[spoiler]Jon and Dany in Luke and Leia action :-[/spoiler]
1. just eeewwww :o
[spoiler]So Jaime and Cersei not bothered you? [/spoiler]
Stomm, just realized.
[spoiler]A sociopathic female twin in a lifelong relationship
and pregnant to her twin brother.[/spoiler]
Like the Star Wars references, it was attempted humor.
Sunday morning in OZ, one sleep and a wake up until all GoT predictions are put to rest.
Cannot wait for the season finale, bring it on. :D
Un fucking believable.
http://comicbook.com/startrek/2017/08/23/george-rr-martin-star-trek-the-next-generation/
Season Finale :-
[spoiler]I believe I can die happy and content after seeing the Dracolich spewing Ice Breath everywhere.
But I thought it would freeze the Wall rather than melting it.
Arya is my favourite cherub faced assassin, just deserts for Little-Finger.
Jon and Dany did end up bumping uglies, more like Cersei/Jaimie than Luke/Leia :o[/spoiler]
Now the looonnng wait for the final season, bummer.
Quote from: lincnashOZ on 28 August, 2017, 01:20:52 PM
Season Finale :-
[spoiler]I believe I can die happy and content after seeing the Dracolich spewing Ice Breath everywhere.
But I thought it would freeze the Wall rather than melting it.
Arya is my favourite cherub faced assassin, just deserts for Little-Finger.
Jon and Dany did end up bumping uglies, more like Cersei/Jaimie than Luke/Leia :o[/spoiler]
Now the looonnng wait for the final season, bummer.
I'm not sure that [spoiler]blue stuff was actually melting it - just hurtling loads of ice fragments at it until it fell apart[/spoiler]. That bears closer inspection.
Re: [spoiler]Jon and Dany - more like their ancestors too, not that they know it yet[/spoiler].
I think it was blue fire.
We began with Ed Sheeran but we ended with MASTODON (both guitarists anyhow)
(https://scontent-lhr3-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t31.0-8/21200932_10155749087157948_5339628456405373041_o.jpg?oh=7985587e3abad2df8b072a4de6413045&oe=5A2B98D3)
A great final episode really with some genuinely unexpected twists [spoiler]I really didn't see the death of Littlefinger comin'[/spoiler] and some of that weird lollygagging [spoiler]the thought of all the Dany gang just... kicking their heels in the arena waiting for Tyrion to come back was hilariously clunky.[/spoiler]
Well - a truly mixed seventh season - sacrificing some of the meat and brutal randomness but exchanging it for satisfying thread-tethering and closing character arcs. Well it still made for riveting telly despite the narrative shark jumpery - ROLL ON THE FINAL SEASON!
Cool stuff, really enjoyed this season. Will be fun to see how they wrap this all up. Another example of wrapping up an ongoing work that doesn't have an ending yet in it's original medium is the anime series X (TV). Really cool series, came up with a well done ending too.
I look forward to George A. Romero presents George RR Martin's Game of Thrones: War of the Dead next season. And some Thrones-y twists with the relationships and politics of course.
Quote from: JamesC on 22 August, 2017, 07:00:54 PM
[spoiler]I'm not sure the Sansa/Arya thing is so stupid either. The sisters were almost polar opposites to begin with and now they both have power but in very different ways. They both, to some extent, support Jon and I see their power games almost as sparring - saying to one another 'if you mess this up I'll get you'. It may seem silly and counterproductive but most family disagreements tend to.
I think Littlefinger overestimates his influence and I wouldn't be surprised if he gets his comeuppance at the hands of both sisters. I think the Starks will come together when it counts.[/spoiler]
Called it. :D
Final Season:-[spoiler]How about the producers/directors go for the anti-Hollywood ending to the Series.
The Ice King wipes EVERYONE out and wins ?.
The Internet would shit kittens in fury.[/spoiler]
Daenerys:-[spoiler]She repeated she cant have babies and the Dragons were the substitute.
I suspect Jon's swimmers might put a rest to that.[/spoiler]
Little-Finger :-[spoiler]When he was (attempting) to manipulate Sansa, I thought "she is way too experienced for this and has Arya waiting in the shadows".
When that didn't happen, I felt his time was short.[/spoiler]
Ice Breath:-[spoiler]I have come to the conclusion that in Game of Thrones physics, the sheer force of the Ice Blast was enough to bring down the Wall with explosive affect.[/spoiler]
So much black in my post I have to light a candle.
I'm wondering if Jon will get to ride Dani's other dragon.
Quote from: JamesC on 29 August, 2017, 08:45:57 AM
I'm wondering if Jon will get to ride Dani's other dragon.
hhmmph.... hhmmmphhh ....Game of Thrones, wise to the ways you are, my padawan. :D
[spoiler]Viserion to Jon = *sniff* .... *sniff ... Targaryen blood. I won't eat you. Hop aboard.[/spoiler]
Thought it was a really good season finale. I'd accidentally seen a headline that morning that said [spoiler]'Game of Thrones just gave us its most satisfying death yet' so that had me going in wondering what it could be, and of course as soon as that Littlefinger scene started I realized that would be it. I think the writers of such headlines genuinely think they're being clever by talking around spoilers, but something like that just sends you in with a certain expectation which to my mind still constitutes a bloody spoiler![/spoiler]
The Mastadon cameo pulled me out of the moment a bit and made me laugh for a moment, just because it was so up front and, in a line of rotten zombie white walker faces covered in all sorts of mad makeup, Mastadon just looked like Mastadon.
Quote from: Jim_Campbell on 18 July, 2017, 09:18:38 AM
No particular spoilers in this post, but I don't see the point of the entire thread being a mass of spoiler blocks. It's right there in the title. Steer clear until you've seen whichever is the current episode.
Couple of days after, I'm not going to take the Black anymore.
Quote from: Richard on 28 August, 2017, 10:51:13 PM
I think it was blue fire.
Seems the Internet agrees Rich, I will have to conform. >:(
The reasoning behind my Ice Breath theory was the Ice King ;)(sorry NIGHT King) takes the cold chill of Winter with him.
He uses Ice Spears to dispatch Dragons.
The minions he has created (White Walkers) are all armed with Ice Swords.
Seemed to be a logical extension that the Dracolich would have an Ice weapon also.
Spending too much time in this thread (I should get a life) but the finale still has me buzzing.
(https://wmpics.pics/di-NCK0.png)
Quote from: radiator on 23 August, 2017, 04:18:26 PM
Though the books do a great job of conveying Westeros as a truly vast place that feels like a real continent, I long ago had to adjust my conception of it for the TV show and just imagine that it's roughly the size of England. It's the only way it can make any kind of sense.
So, predictions for the finale:
[spoiler]All the major players converge on KL for 'peace talks' with Cersei (this is where we hear Jon's dialogue from the trailer about how 'our two families once fought together' - he's addressing Cersei), but Cersei doesn't care about the Wight (she has one working for her remember) and instead, tries to murder everyone using the Mountain and/or Wildfire. The Hound will finally overcome his fear of fire to kill his zombified brother using a flaming sword, maybe sacrificing himself in the process. Things come to a head between Jaime and Cersei (no doubt involving Brienne in some capacity) and Jaime ultimately ends up seeing the light, killing Cersei and himself.
Meanwhile in Winterfell, Sansa and Arya get over their contrived drama (this is where we'll hear Sansa reciting Ned's proverb about Stark unity "The lone wolf dies, but the pack survives" that featured in the trailer), and Sansa kills Littlefinger with Chekov's Valyrian dagger.
Jon + Dany get it on at some point.
The Night King uses zombie dragon to bring the wall down as a cliffhanger for the final season.[/spoiler]
Pretty accurate, on the whole. [spoiler]The brothers Clegane will fight another day, probably a set-piece linked to a Lannister face-off.[/spoiler]
The ruler of the seven kingdoms at the end of it all will be [spoiler]Bronn.[/spoiler]
My theory is that the Iron Bank will play a large role early-season (spoilered just in case).
[spoiler]They can't ignore the existence of the wights anymore - not now the wall is down. I think they'll pull funds promised to Cersei making her unable to pay for the mercenaries from Esos (there's literally no reason to support Cersei's claim to the throne if it looks like Westeros is going to become land of the dead. And now the wights have a dragon, the threat is presumably intercontinental (if it wasn't assumed to be anyway)). I wouldn't be massively surprised if the bank fund the mercenaries themselves and sends them to the North.[/spoiler]
Best line of the week has to go to Jamey- 'Maybe it is all about **** in the end?'
Thoroughly enjoyable telly, and this season has also provided an answer to where our very own CF has been for the last few months- He's up at Winterfell posing as a Maester!
Like the season as a whole, the finale was a real mixed bag. Once again, the littany of logical and narrative inconsistencies detracted a lot from my enjoyment.
The obvious Littlefinger 'twist' did nothing to redeem the Sansa/Arya plotline in my eyes, and Littlefinger's plan still makes no sense at all. The conflict between Sansa and Arya still seemed incredibly forced and unconvincing to me, and the TV show version of Littlefinger is now reduced to someone who just likes creating friction and conflict seemingly for the hell of it - his wider purpose and motivation got totally lost along the way. It seems like we're supposed to assume that it was his speech about 'assuming the worst' of others that finally makes the penny drop for Sansa, when we know that she's known all along what a shit he is. Why does he seem so shocked when it all unravelled, when it was, at best, an incredibly tenuous and risky plan to begin with? Makes him look really stupid. And why does Bran only chip in with that vital piece of info now? Makes no sense, does my head in.
What are we supposed to make of Jon's refusal to drop his support for Dany at the expense of the truce? Because it comes across that he's an idiot who's willing to doom the entire world because of his own pride/honour.... Again, I'm not sure that's what the writers want us to take away from it... It comes across like we're supposed to ultimately admire him for it...
Crucially, I don't know about anyone else, but I can't help but feel that the decision to use the zombie dragon to bring down the wall has kind of broken the story irreparably. It's now very hard not to see Jon, Dany and Tyrion as being fully responsible for the arrival of the White Walkers, and had they just all stayed at home and nothing the world would have been better off, and again I really don't think this is intentional on the part of the writers.
There's also other little distracting things, such as Euron's heel turn when he sees the wight. We're led to believe this was a ploy by him and Cersei planned ahead of time... So did they know about the wight in advance? Whaa?
Why would Bran think Jon being born in Dorne would make him a Sand rather than a Snow, when Jon's place of birth has never been in dispute...? Everyone knows he wasn't born in the North.
Stuff I really liked:
All the Theon scenes - especially his heart to heart with Jon. The beach scene was a little odd, but I loved the shot of him collapsing on the beach with the sun setting behind the cliffs in the background. Despite his season arc feeling very repetitious (how many times does he have to man up?) Alfie Allen just sells it so well, and Theon remains among my favourite book and show characters - I can't think of an actor better suited to the role.
I appreciated how the dragonpit scenes were shot with the sun very low in the sky - it made the later transition to full on winter more convincing.
It's a little thing, but I really liked the scene with Jaime riding alone as the snow starts to fall. It's a quiet, but for me very memorable, moment from the books that I assumed we'd never see on screen (I actually assumed that on the TV show we'd never see actual winter south of Winterfell).
I get the feeling that GRR Martin gave the production the broad strokes of the unpublished plot, just key plot points and they had to figure out the details themselves. The Winterfell stuff pretty much confirmed it for me.
Quote from: Mister Pops on 29 August, 2017, 06:31:48 PM
I get the feeling that GRR Martin gave the production the broad strokes of the unpublished plot, just key plot points and they had to figure out the details themselves. The Winterfell stuff pretty much confirmed it for me.
Oh yeah, completely. I think that seasons 6-8 will bear very, very little resemblance to how things play out in the books, other than only the broadest of broad strokes.
I don't think many of the events that happened in seasons 6 and 7 will happen in the books at all, and those that do, the circumstances will be totally different (eg in the books the wall will fall in a totally different way). See also Stannis burning Shireen it'll definitely happen in the books, but will make a lot more sense. There will be no zombie dragon or 'Night King' - they are TV show inventions, and there will be a lot less reunions between characters in the books - a lot of them will never see each other again.
I also think there'll be a lot less crossover between the political and supernatural elements of the story - eg I don't think Cersei or Jaime will live to see the arrival of the White Walkers.
I think there's some nitpicking going on here. I think most of these questions can be answered without too much work on the viewer's part.
Quote from: radiator on 29 August, 2017, 06:16:46 PM
Like the season as a whole, the finale was a real mixed bag. Once again, the littany of logical and narrative inconsistencies detracted a lot from my enjoyment.
The obvious Littlefinger 'twist' did nothing to redeem the Sansa/Arya plotline in my eyes, and Littlefinger's plan still makes no sense at all. The conflict between Sansa and Arya still seemed incredibly forced and unconvincing to me, and the TV show version of Littlefinger is now reduced to someone who just likes creating friction and conflict seemingly for the hell of it - his wider purpose and motivation got totally lost along the way. It seems like we're supposed to assume that it was his speech about 'assuming the worst' of others that finally makes the penny drop for Sansa, when we know that she's known all along what a shit he is. Why does he seem so shocked when it all unravelled, when it was, at best, an incredibly tenuous and risky plan to begin with? Makes him look really stupid. And why does Bran only chip in with that vital piece of info now? Makes no sense, does my head in.
The whole scene was theatre. It's the sisters showing they're not to be messed with and doing it in front of all the lords of the North. They're flexing their muscles.
Littlefinger wants to be as close to power as possible. He's a gambler that tries to stack the odds in his favour. At this stage he feels his best power move is to get Sansa set up as Queen of the North. A certain amount of friction has always existed between the sisters and they played on this to lure Littefinger into doing just enough to overplay his hand. They could have called him out at anytime but Sansa wanted him to know that she'd beaten him. He'd been duped and she was revelling in his moment of realisation. He was shocked because he'd been fooled into beleiving that Sansa was the sap he'd taken her for - she was rubbing his face in it. There's no reason to believe that Bran wasn't going along with this too. The speech about beleiving the worst wasn't what made the penny drop for Sansa but it was the moment that she felt was perfect for turning the tables.
What are we supposed to make of Jon's refusal to drop his support for Dany at the expense of the truce? Because it comes across that he's an idiot who's willing to doom the entire world because of his own pride/honour.... Again, I'm not sure that's what the writers want us to take away from it... It comes across like we're supposed to ultimately admire him for it...
Jon believes in the truth. He has faith that ultimately it's the best policy. He's well aware that it makes him look foolish in the eyes of everyone else but he believes in a new world. This is all in the script. He wants a new world with new rules.
Crucially, I don't know about anyone else, but I can't help but feel that the decision to use the zombie dragon to bring down the wall has kind of broken the story irreparably. It's now very hard not to see Jon, Dany and Tyrion as being fully responsible for the arrival of the White Walkers, and had they just all stayed at home and nothing the world would have been better off, and again I really don't think this is intentional on the part of the writers.
The wall was always going to be breached one way or the other. Otherwise the white walkers were never a threat. You seen how far the Night King can chuck a spear. One decent hit on a watcher with a spear or arrow would have been enough to raise a walker on the other side of the wall. Hell, who's to say he couldn't just raise the dead on the other side of the wall. He doesn't need physical contact to do so as shown at Hardhome.
There's also other little distracting things, such as Euron's heel turn when he sees the wight. We're led to believe this was a ploy by him and Cersei planned ahead of time... So did they know about the wight in advance?
Cersie and Euron know damn well that there's going to be conflict at the meeting and more likely than not Dragons. The 'these terrify' me speech could easily have been prepared for the dragon eventuality and repurposed for the walker threat. It didn't even need to be that well planned. He's a crafty bastard. A simple 'when things get edgy I'll pretend to dessert you' is all that need have been agreed.
Why would Bran think Jon being born in Dorne would make him a Sand rather than a Snow, when Jon's place of birth has never been in dispute...? Everyone knows he wasn't born in the North.
Maybe it's not the place of birth but the lineage that determines the name. You're from the loins of a north man you're a Snow, from. Dornish man you're a Sand? It's not really a big deal.
Stuff I really liked:
All the Theon scenes - especially his heart to heart with Jon. The beach scene was a little odd, but I loved the shot of him collapsing on the beach with the sun setting behind the cliffs in the background. Despite his season arc feeling very repetitious (how many times does he have to man up?) Alfie Allen just sells it so well, and Theon remains among my favourite book and show characters - I can't think of an actor better suited to the role.
I appreciated how the dragonpit scenes were shot with the sun very low in the sky - it made the later transition to full on winter more convincing.
It's a little thing, but I really liked the scene with Jaime riding alone as the snow starts to fall. It's a quiet, but for me very memorable, moment from the books that I assumed we'd never see on screen (I actually assumed that on the TV show we'd never see actual winter south of Winterfell).
I liked those bits too. In fact I thought this episode had some of the best acting I've seen full stop. Lena Headey was something else.
In his extended struggle to write the final books, GRRM is facing the same problems as the show in trying to lay the path to the ending and I suspect if the remaining books ever get finished, many of the things that are disliked about these final seasons will be present, albeit in an altered extended form, in the 'original' work.
GRRM enjoyed writing himself into a corner in the first 3 books and the 2 subsequent, less plot driven, books seem to imply a writer who's not too sure himself how to pull back from that and has tried to put off the inevitable story convergences for a while longer. He created a feeling in the early books that anything can happen and be emotional but there's only so many times you can kill off main characters to subvert an old trope until it too becomes predictable and tired. It's also hard to have a satisfying story that's just filled with surprises and surprise deaths till the end for the simple fact someone must survive and by simple process of elimination it became clear quite early on who they would more or less be. At some point it all has to come together but also, ironically in this case, be in some way predictable.
It's easy to criticise the tired old tropes of the show but will GRRM fare that much better?
I'm with you on all that but the sansa/Arya stuff, which still makes no sense to me, but Ill be watching back to see if it merits me revising my opinion - the problem is twofold
The sisters have to conspire to do this at some point they feel they wont be overheard - they then ahve to act it out in the hope they are being watched. It's pretty elaborate, so they must have a reason beyond making Littlefinger feel smug... If they had been teasing out some information from him that proved his treachery, then such a charade might have been worth it. Too often it felt like those scene were purely for the camera rather than rooted in the logical actions required to achieve the goal of unseating Baelish
AS it was, all they needed was for Bran to see ity, so they could have arranged that meeting and his death episodes ago. Now they might ahe been toying with him, but look at what he did - he killed their father and plunged the world into chaos that killed their siblings too... are you really going to play mind games in that situation?
Quote from: Leigh S on 29 August, 2017, 08:03:50 PM
I'm with you on all that but the sansa/Arya stuff, which still makes no sense to me, but Ill be watching back to see if it merits me revising my opinion - the problem is twofold
The sisters have to conspire to do this at some point they feel they wont be overheard - they then ahve to act it out in the hope they are being watched. It's pretty elaborate, so they must have a reason beyond making Littlefinger feel smug... If they had been teasing out some information from him that proved his treachery, then such a charade might have been worth it. Too often it felt like those scene were purely for the camera rather than rooted in the logical actions required to achieve the goal of unseating Baelish
AS it was, all they needed was for Bran to see ity, so they could have arranged that meeting and his death episodes ago. Now they might ahe been toying with him, but look at what he did - he killed their father and plunged the world into chaos that killed their siblings too... are you really going to play mind games in that situation?
The whole plan is about turning the tables on Littlefinger and doing so with an audience there to see it. That makes the elaborate acting out worth while. I'm sure it's reasonably easy to have a 'private' conversation if you have Bran around and then you just act out everything else wherever with the understanding that Littlefinger, with his little birds and curtain twitching ways, will catch at least 80% of it.
Getting one over on Littlefinger - getting him on the hook and squirming, unable to talk his way out of his fate (giving him enough rope to hang himself) sends a powerful message to the other lords. Littlefinger has huge reputation as someone who always knows what's going on - someone it's not easy to trick. This whole scene says 'this is what happens to people who mess with us. If I can outwit Littlefinger I can outwit you.'
I actually really like how Sansa has come out of this. As she said, she's learnt a lot from Littlefinger.
There's a nice parallel with what happened to Arya. Arya had the shit beaten out of her but ended up learning to kick ass. Sansa was manipulated and used as a pawn by just about everyone. Now she's learned to be a chess player rather than a chess piece.
Again, James, I think you're misunderstanding my criticisms. You seem to think that I don't understand or am misinterpreting the plot somehow, when what I'm saying is that I don't
buy it and I think it's bad writing.
QuoteThe speech about beleiving the worst wasn't what made the penny drop for Sansa
Watch the scenes again. This is absolutely what happened. Sansa directly quotes this line back to him. Meaning we're supposed to totally buy all of the conflict between Sansa and Arya up to this point - they were only play-acting in the very final scene.
QuoteThere's no reason to believe that Bran wasn't going along with this too
My point about Bran is that he knows Littlefinger betrayed Ned.
He knows everything! And didn't immediately tell Sansa and Arya
why?QuoteMaybe it's not the place of birth but the lineage that determines the name. You're from the loins of a north man you're a Snow, from. Dornish man you're a Sand? It's not really a big deal.
Rhaegar wasn't Dornish. As I said, everyone knows Jon wasn't born in the North but he was raised a Snow regardless. I agree that it's not a huge deal, but it's another example of sloppy writing.
QuoteThe wall was always going to be breached one way or the other....
It's been established in previous episodes that the wall is also a magical barrier that the White Walkers cannot cross - so some powerful spell or weapon is required to bring it down, otherwise they would have crossed it seasons ago. By losing the dragon to the White Walkers (in what ultimately ended up being a pointless exercise*) it firmly makes it the direct fault and responsibility of Jon, Dany and Tyrion - the three principal heroes of the entire saga - that the Walkers breached the Wall, and nothing they do from this point on will redeem or excuse this. It's their fault. And the show does not acknowledge this fact.... Do you honestly think that's good/satisfying storytelling?
*as Cersei has betrayed them anyway**
**Which anyone - especially Tyrion - should have been able to predict.
I'm copying and pasting a comment here from another site that really stuck out to me, and really nails the exact kind of weird logic/narrative and character/motivation problems that have really plagued this season. This is referring to episode 5:
QuoteAnd, shit, while I'm complaining about how rushed and ridiculous that last episode was: Jon nonchalantly tosses off about how Bran sees the army of the dead marching on Eastwatch. Parse that for a second. Bran, the brother Jon has thought has been dead for years now who has finally returned home. Jon has no interest in actually, you know, seeing him and also bizarrely accepts that Bran has visions of White Walkers with no explanation at all. Bran seems actively going out of his way to not let Jon know about his true heritage. AND Jon is receiving ravens from Winterfell, should know both Bran and Arya are back, his long lost family, but is like, meh, I gotta grab a wight. Cause, you know, nobody else can do that.
Quote from: radiator on 29 August, 2017, 08:19:37 PM
It's been established in previous episodes that the wall is also a magical barrier that the White Walkers cannot cross - so some powerful spell or weapon is required to bring it down, otherwise they would have crossed it seasons ago. By losing the dragon to the White Walkers (in what ultimately ended up being a pointless exercise*) it firmly makes it the direct fault and responsibility of Jon, Dany and Tyrion - the three principal heroes of the entire saga - that the Walkers breached the Wall, and nothing they do from this point on will redeem or excuse this. It's their fault. And the show does not acknowledge this fact.... Do you honestly think that's good/satisfying storytelling?
Tyrion requested
Daenerys not go beyond the wall – both of whom have little idea of what the Walkers and the
Night King can do.
But the play acting doesnt make him squirm - he isnt on any hook - The public trial where he cant talk his way out of his fate can happen without any of the charades that, if anything, might tip him off that someting is awry.
All the play acting achieves is giving him more time alive thinking he is a winner, and more time to do something else damaging. It achieves nothing at all and is potentially risky - Bran tells them what they need to know about his treachery, and no-one stops the sisters slitting his throat.
If you found out the man who got your family killed is in your house nicking your last hobnob, would you keep him alive and in hobnobs for a few more weeks before doing him in? you might want to make him sweat before he die, but they do the exact opposite
Quote from: JamesC on 29 August, 2017, 08:18:06 PM
Quote from: Leigh S on 29 August, 2017, 08:03:50 PM
I'm with you on all that but the sansa/Arya stuff, which still makes no sense to me, but Ill be watching back to see if it merits me revising my opinion - the problem is twofold
The sisters have to conspire to do this at some point they feel they wont be overheard - they then ahve to act it out in the hope they are being watched. It's pretty elaborate, so they must have a reason beyond making Littlefinger feel smug... If they had been teasing out some information from him that proved his treachery, then such a charade might have been worth it. Too often it felt like those scene were purely for the camera rather than rooted in the logical actions required to achieve the goal of unseating Baelish
AS it was, all they needed was for Bran to see ity, so they could have arranged that meeting and his death episodes ago. Now they might ahe been toying with him, but look at what he did - he killed their father and plunged the world into chaos that killed their siblings too... are you really going to play mind games in that situation?
The whole plan is about turning the tables on Littlefinger and doing so with an audience there to see it. That makes the elaborate acting out worth while. I'm sure it's reasonably easy to have a 'private' conversation if you have Bran around and then you just act out everything else wherever with the understanding that Littlefinger, with his little birds and curtain twitching ways, will catch at least 80% of it.
Getting one over on Littlefinger - getting him on the hook and squirming, unable to talk his way out of his fate (giving him enough rope to hang himself) sends a powerful message to the other lords. Littlefinger has huge reputation as someone who always knows what's going on - someone it's not easy to trick. This whole scene says 'this is what happens to people who mess with us. If I can outwit Littlefinger I can outwit you.'
I actually really like how Sansa has come out of this. As she said, she's learnt a lot from Littlefinger.
There's a nice parallel with what happened to Arya. Arya had the shit beaten out of her but ended up learning to kick ass. Sansa was manipulated and used as a pawn by just about everyone. Now she's learned to be a chess player rather than a chess piece.
Quote from: radiator on 29 August, 2017, 08:19:37 PM
Again, James, I think you're misunderstanding my criticisms. You seem to think that I don't understand or am misinterpreting the plot somehow, when what I'm saying is that I don't buy it and I think it's bad writing.
QuoteThe speech about beleiving the worst wasn't what made the penny drop for Sansa
Watch the scenes again. This is absolutely what happened. Sansa directly quotes this line back to him. Meaning we're supposed to totally buy all of the conflict between Sansa and Arya up to this point - they were only play-acting in the very final scene.
QuoteThere's no reason to believe that Bran wasn't going along with this too
My point about Bran is that he knows Littlefinger betrayed Ned. He knows everything! And didn't immediately tell Sansa and Arya why?
QuoteMaybe it's not the place of birth but the lineage that determines the name. You're from the loins of a north man you're a Snow, from. Dornish man you're a Sand? It's not really a big deal.
Rhaegar wasn't Dornish. As I said, everyone knows Jon wasn't born in the North but he was raised a Snow regardless. I agree that it's not a huge deal, but it's another example of sloppy writing.
QuoteThe wall was always going to be breached one way or the other....
It's been established in previous episodes that the wall is also a magical barrier that the White Walkers cannot cross - so some powerful spell or weapon is required to bring it down, otherwise they would have crossed it seasons ago. By losing the dragon to the White Walkers (in what ultimately ended up being a pointless exercise*) it firmly makes it the direct fault and responsibility of Jon, Dany and Tyrion - the three principal heroes of the entire saga - that the Walkers breached the Wall, and nothing they do from this point on will redeem or excuse this. It's their fault. And the show does not acknowledge this fact.... Do you honestly think that's good/satisfying storytelling?
*as Cersei has betrayed them anyway**
**Which anyone - especially Tyrion - should have been able to predict.
I'm copying and pasting a comment here from another site that really stuck out to me, and really nails the exact kind of weird logic/narrative and character/motivation problems that have really plagued this season. This is referring to episode 5:
QuoteAnd, shit, while I'm complaining about how rushed and ridiculous that last episode was: Jon nonchalantly tosses off about how Bran sees the army of the dead marching on Eastwatch. Parse that for a second. Bran, the brother Jon has thought has been dead for years now who has finally returned home. Jon has no interest in actually, you know, seeing him and also bizarrely accepts that Bran has visions of White Walkers with no explanation at all. Bran seems actively going out of his way to not let Jon know about his true heritage. AND Jon is receiving ravens from Winterfell, should know both Bran and Arya are back, his long lost family, but is like, meh, I gotta grab a wight. Cause, you know, nobody else can do that.
I think it comes down to your point of view - I completely disagree with your interpretation of the Sansa scene. You see it as a penny drop, I see it, also as a moment of realisation, but of realisation that this is the moment she's been waiting for.
As for Bran (and most of these types of prophetic characters in fiction) you have to assume there
is a reason. Once you accept this it's pretty simple to imagine what it may be. This is an important 'caterpillar' moment for Sansa. She's gone from a slightly odd young woman to a legitimate power player. Much better for her to go through this process and have this triumphant moment in front of her peers than for her to act on a tale told by her weird brother.
Also, the thing with the wall. As much as it may be established as a big bastard magical thing, it's equally well established by everyone who's seen the walkers that they
are a threat and they
will destroy Westeros unless they rally forces against them. It's hard to blame Jon, Dany or the rest for doing exactly that.
I'm not saying there aren't holes or that the writing is bullet proof but almost everything held up as a significant 'hole' seems to me like something that people have stuck their fingers through and tried to make into something bigger.
Leigh, the more it transpired that Littlefinger had spent time around Sansa thinking he was playing but was actually the one being played, the more it discredits Littlefinger's intelligence and demonstrates that Sansa may well have your number without you knowing it. That's far more intimidating to any other would-be game players than a simple show of force.
But the only people involved are teh sisters and LF - how it plays out to everone else in that room would be identical. I can see your argument that it makes his final moments more sour as he realises his latest play has been for nothing.... it seems a lot of effort and risk for a small additional kick in his ribs as he goes down, but I can see the logic - I suspect that with some more subtle writing and/or acting that could have come across a bit more explicitly for the likes of me! :)
Quote from: JamesC on 29 August, 2017, 08:55:07 PM
Leigh, the more it transpired that Littlefinger had spent time around Sansa thinking he was playing but was actually the one being played, the more it discredits Littlefinger's intelligence and demonstrates that Sansa may well have your number without you knowing it. That's far more intimidating to any other would-be game players than a simple show of force.
Quote from: radiator on 29 August, 2017, 08:19:37 PM
QuoteThe speech about beleiving the worst wasn't what made the penny drop for Sansa
Watch the scenes again. This is absolutely what happened. Sansa directly quotes this line back to him. Meaning we're supposed to totally buy all of the conflict between Sansa and Arya up to this point - they were only play-acting in the very final scene.
To elaborate, I think that Sansa has wanted LF dead for ages. He's been a sometime ally, useful, even a comfort at times but ultimately she's known for years that he's a bad egg that needs killing (in some ways it mirrors Arya's relationship with the Hound. It seems like a friendship of sorts, but he's on her list the whole time). I think she's been waiting and stewing on this - biding her time. Arya has her kill-list, Sansa has LF.
The thing is, it's not just about killing him. She could do that anytime. She has to beat him - she has to set a trap and he has to trip it. The reason Sansa repeats the line is to tell him that this is the moment he tipped the trap - he almost killed himself by reaching too far.
None of this is about minimising risk or having a good strategy, it's about a revenge savoured. LF is indeed on a hook from the moment his name is mentioned in relation to the charges. It only takes a couple of minutes but his begging, his fast talking, his wise mouth can't save him. He's rendered impotent (Its no coincidence that the execution method is a slit throat, meaning he can't even spit out his last words).
Sorry about all this posting. I'll stop in a minute! :lol:
Basically, Sansa's motivations and overall plan aren't strategic, they're emotional. When the times comes to do the deed though, she's learnt enough to make the most of it. It makes for an effective demonstration to her peers.
The fact that there's so much confusion and opposing interpretations regarding the Sansa/Arya plot says to me that there are problems with muddy plotting/writing. The 'twist' should be really satisfying, but loses a lot of its impact if no one is 100% sure what was really going on in the first place.
QuoteThe thing is, it's not just about killing him. She could do that anytime. She has to beat him - she has to set a trap and he has to trip it.
Why, exactly? How does this make sense from a practical/logical point of view? Where/when is this implied? Seriously, watch those scenes again - his speech being the catalyst is clearly what they were going for. Up until that point, she was genuinely going to side with someone she knew was a creep, a traitor and a murderer over her own flesh and blood.
QuoteI'm not saying there aren't holes or that the writing is bullet proof but almost everything held up as a significant 'hole' seems to me like something that people have stuck their fingers through and tried to make into something bigger.
Each to their own - for me the way the wall comes down isn't a nitpick - it's a crucial event that completely reframes the entire story from here on out, and not in a good way. It's just something I'll have to try and ignore.
QuoteGRRM enjoyed writing himself into a corner in the first 3 books and the 2 subsequent, less plot driven, books seem to imply a writer who's not too sure himself how to pull back from that and has tried to put off the inevitable story convergences for a while longer. He created a feeling in the early books that anything can happen and be emotional but there's only so many times you can kill off main characters to subvert an old trope until it too becomes predictable and tired. It's also hard to have a satisfying story that's just filled with surprises and surprise deaths till the end for the simple fact someone must survive and by simple process of elimination it became clear quite early on who they would more or less be. At some point it all has to come together but also, ironically in this case, be in some way predictable.
I don't think any of my criticisms are that there aren't enough twists or deaths - I'm talking pretty basic plot stuff - character, motivation, internal logic etc. It's been imo significantly shakier these last two seasons when the show writers have had to invent a lot of stuff themselves. I'm totally fine with the odd bit of hand-waving regarding travel distances, stuff like that, but this season has been really egregious to the point of being distracting.
QuoteI suspect if the remaining books ever get finished, many of the things that are disliked about these final seasons will be present, albeit in an altered extended form, in the 'original' work.
Me too, though I'd argue that the reason they're disliked is in the execution. As I've said before, Stannis will burn Shireen, Sansa will turn on Littlefinger, the Wall will come down, Jon and Dany will fall in love. I just think it will be a lot better executed and more tightly plotted. Not that I want to totally rag on the show - I think in many ways (especially in the early seasons) it did a damn fine job of adaptation. It just seems like the quality of the writing has taken a nosedive since they ran out of material to adapt.
QuoteTyrion requested Daenerys not go beyond the wall – both of whom have little idea of what the Walkers and the Night King can do.
I'm talking more on a meta level. Does it make for a good story, knowing the heroes were (charitably) indirectly responsible for unleashing the evil horde, and the subsequent slaughter that's about to take place, especially (as I pointed out) as the way they lost the dragon was ultimately pointless?
People are known to do things that are not practical or logical - especially where strong emotions are involved.
I think Sansa's intentions (or at least her feelings) towards LF have been implied subtly over a few seasons. It's just the way she acts around him. I never thought the sisters would truly betray each other (see my post after the previous episode) and that LFs days were numbered. I just never really felt like it was going any other way because I feel I know the characters.
I would like to think GRRM nitpicks the plot as much as you guys and THAT'S WHY WE HAVEN'T GOT THE NEXT BOOK!
Tangenial theory: [spoiler]Cersei is putting too much faith in Euron, and her reveal is a red herring. I bet he really has turned tail and ran back to the Iron Isles.[/spoiler]
Quote from: JamesC on 29 August, 2017, 09:40:08 PM
Sorry about all this posting. I'll stop in a minute! :lol:
Please don't, this is all great stuff from all sides.
Quite civil debate on a great TV show.
Still hasn't descended into "F**K ALL YOU C****", which is a rare thing these days.
Bah, going to have to wait a long time to see if Tormund makes it off the wall safely...
(http://www.futurequake.co.uk/imagebucket/davepersonal/Tormund-Web.jpg)
Quote from: Bolt-01 on 29 August, 2017, 11:08:02 PM
Bah, going to have to wait a long time to see if Tormund makes it off the wall safely...
(http://www.futurequake.co.uk/imagebucket/davepersonal/Tormund-Web.jpg)
Surely there must be some Brienne action in his future :P (cool art btw).
QuoteThere's a nice parallel with what happened to Arya. Arya had the shit beaten out of her but ended up learning to kick ass. Sansa was manipulated and used as a pawn by just about everyone. Now she's learned to be a chess player rather than a chess piece.
I think this is spot on.
I don't think the idea that Sansa only just realised how bad Littlefinger is when he made his "I play a little game" speech stands up to scrutiny. She's known exactly what kind of man he is since series 4, when he told her he killed Joffrey, and killed her aunt in front of her. Then he sold her to Ramsey Bolton who tormented, raped and flogged her. Then after all that, after the Battle of the Bastards he have her that speech about how he wants to be king and everything he does is calculated to make that happen, and then she sees the scheming look on his face when the lords hail her brother as king of the North. It's not really plausible that she just didn't notice any of this at the time.
As she herself said sarcastically to Littlefinger at the start of this year's season (when discussing Cersei): "the woman who killed my father, my mother and my brother is dangerous? Thank you for your wise counsel." She's not incapable of recognising who is dangerous. She was a silly little girl when we met her in series one, but she's come a long way: she said that too a couple of weeks ago, to Arya in fact. In hindsight, both of these comments were clues about where her storyline was going this year.
If you really thought that she didn't know what was going on until the last episode, then I don't know what else will convince you.
As for the manner in which they sent him on his way: what else could they do? He was Lord Protector of the Vale, and Winterfell was teeming with the Vale's soldiers. Most of the soldiers in that hall were from the Vale. They could hardly just do him in in secret and hope for the best. Instead they got the Vale's fat general bloke on their side: no mean feat for two teenage girls. It was a necessary bit of theatre, and perfectly conceived and executed. And from a writing / drama perspective, it has really developed Sansa as a character. The other interpretation of her storyline makes her look like some kind of total fucking idiot who hasn't changed at all since series 1 episode 1 except that she had bigger tits. I know which interpretation I prefer.
Quote from: radiator on 29 August, 2017, 06:16:46 PM
All the Theon scenes - especially his heart to heart with Jon. The beach scene was a little odd, but I loved the shot of him collapsing on the beach with the sun setting behind the cliffs in the background. Despite his season arc feeling very repetitious (how many times does he have to man up?)
You were
that close to saying he grew a pair ;)
Quote from: JamesC on 29 August, 2017, 09:40:08 PM
Sorry about all this posting. I'll stop in a minute! :lol:
Basically, Sansa's motivations and overall plan aren't strategic, they're emotional. When the times comes to do the deed though, she's learnt enough to make the most of it. It makes for an effective demonstration to her peers.
Bit disappointed that the person to declare the sentence didn't carry out the sentence...
QuoteI don't think the idea that Sansa only just realised how bad Littlefinger is when he made his "I play a little game" speech stands up to scrutiny.... If you really thought that she didn't know what was going on until the last episode, then I don't know what else will convince you.
Is there a 'head banging against a desk' emoji I can use? :lol:
Again, that isn't the point I or anyone else is making. I'm saying I don't understand why she would have
ever considered siding with Littlefinger against her own family*, given what she knows about him and the things she has seen him do. What's weird to me is that they play the scene as if it
is a revelation she's come to. She even says 'I'm a slow learner.'
*Which the show
clearly demonstrates that she is considering up until the 'little game' speech, which is when she turns his own logic against him and instead decides to patch things up with Arya (in a scene we don't see). The idea that she's been playing Littlefinger the whole season long is just plain wrong - all the previous scenes of mistrust and tension between her and Arya weren't staged, they were 'real', and that's my issue - I didn't buy it as seeming authentic or in-character for either of them. I never believed for a second they would actually try to kill each other, so the whole plotline just seemed phoney and drawn out to me.
Potentially the "big reveal" opening scene of Season 8 :-
Arya was lurking in the shadows during L-F's speech to Sansa ?. :o
Here ya go.
(http://www.sherv.net/cm/emo/angry/bang-head-on-wall.gif) (http://www.sherv.net/)
Quote from: radiator on 30 August, 2017, 02:10:37 AM
QuoteI don't think the idea that Sansa only just realised how bad Littlefinger is when he made his "I play a little game" speech stands up to scrutiny.... If you really thought that she didn't know what was going on until the last episode, then I don't know what else will convince you.
Is there a 'head banging against a desk' emoji I can use? :lol:
Again, that isn't the point I or anyone else is making. I'm saying I don't understand why she would have ever considered siding with Littlefinger against her own family*, given what she knows about him and the things she has seen him do. What's weird to me is that they play the scene as if it is a revelation she's come to. She even says 'I'm a slow learner.'
*Which the show clearly demonstrates that she is considering up until the 'little game' speech, which is when she turns his own logic against him and instead decides to patch things up with Arya (in a scene we don't see). The idea that she's been playing Littlefinger the whole season long is just plain wrong - all the previous scenes of mistrust and tension between her and Arya weren't staged, they were 'real', and that's my issue - I didn't buy it as seeming authentic or in-character for either of them. I never believed for a second they would actually try to kill each other, so the whole plotline just seemed phoney and drawn out to me.
We'll have to agree to disagree but there are at least two people on this thread who don't think she ever really did consider siding with LF against Arya. At most she is tempted by the promise of more power and perhaps likes to imagine how far she could go if Jon and Arya weren't around. But I don't think there was ever a serious intention to betray the other Starks, no matter how clearly you seem to think this was shown. It was all a game. Some of us even said so at the time.
QuoteWhy would Bran think Jon being born in Dorne would make him a Sand rather than a Snow, when Jon's place of birth has never been in dispute...? Everyone knows he wasn't born in the North.
Nobody knew that except Ned Stark, and us. It's still a massive secret.
I meant to say, everyone thought he was born in King's Landing.
Quote from: JamesC on 30 August, 2017, 06:05:19 AMthere are at least two people on this thread who don't think she ever really did consider siding with LF against Arya.
Given that she'd fed Ramsay Bolton alive to his own dogs, the only doubt in my mind when watching was whether she'd
actually be stupid enough to trust Baelish over
anything after he handed her over to Ramsay in the first place.
Asking for help reclaiming Winterfell was obviously a calculated risk, but I had no problem believing that Sansa was playing a longer game, waiting for Baelish to overreach before having the slimy git finished off.
Sansa carried out the 'trial' in from of his own men (The Vale) and as so much of it revolved around the murder of Lisa it will only further cement the relationship.
A Stark passed the sentence and a Stark carried it out- also further emphasising the solidarity of the family.
When Sansa uttered LF's name- the Evans house had to pause the viewing in order to calm down- we've all waited for this for so long.
I really don't care about any characters just two in Season 8, and want know if Tormund finally got Brienne!
(http://i.imgur.com/pg1LvMZ.gif)
Quote from: Goaty on 30 August, 2017, 11:29:30 AM
(http://i.imgur.com/pg1LvMZ.gif)
How familiar is that response? Who else is willing to admit to having been on the receiving end?
Wild haired ginger men do that to me all the time...
It gets embarrassing, frankly...
Quote from: Richard on 30 August, 2017, 09:52:44 AM
QuoteWhy would Bran think Jon being born in Dorne would make him a Sand rather than a Snow, when Jon's place of birth has never been in dispute...? Everyone knows he wasn't born in the North.
Nobody knew that except Ned Stark, and us. It's still a massive secret.
Nah the rumour was always that Ned's affair was with Ashara Dayne, a Dornish lady.
The big twist for me really after all that ([spoiler]other than the Wall falling like a house of cards[/spoiler]) was the confirmation that yes, the whole of Robert's Rebellion and the fall of the House of Targaryen and all of this was all down to a madman overreacting lethally.
QuoteAshara Dayne
In the books maybe. Not in the TV series.
Yeah, but he always had to come from the South. Ned went off to war in the south and came back with a bastard.
QuoteHow familiar is that response? Who else is willing to admit to having been on the receiving end?
I love that Tormund is completely oblivious to the disgust there. He's just happy there's a big, sexy lady in his warband.
Quote from: Modern Panther on 30 August, 2017, 06:12:31 PM
QuoteHow familiar is that response? Who else is willing to admit to having been on the receiving end?
I love that Tormund is completely oblivious to the disgust there. He's just happy there's a big, sexy lady in his warband.
I will be very disappointed if there isn't little Giantsbane/Tarth juves running around in Season 8.
But that look sort of sums her feelings up without speaking.
(https://wmpics.pics/di-HBS2.jpg)
Mega-City sized spoilers, no-clicky-if-you-no-watchy yet.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-08-29/game-of-thrones-chat-episode-7-the-dragon-and-the-wolf/8851036
No spoilers, but an interesting, Mega-City sized nerd article.
http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2015/s4164797.htm
Sorry to come late into this but I have been otherwise occupied of late.
In regards to the LF / Sansa / Arya discussion .. I don't think that Sansa trusted LF after what happened with Ramsey Bolton but he did come to the rescue at the Battle of the Bastards. I think Sansa viewed him after that as a resource and a danger, one that she didn't know how to deal with. I think the point of the 'game' scene was that it outted LF. By leading her to the conclusion that Arya wants to be Lady of Winterfell he over plays his hand. Sansa knows full well that being the Lady of Winterfell or anywhere is the last thing Arya wants. If Arya wanted that she could have killed Sansa and taken her face in the previous episode but she didn't. When LF tries to portray Arya in that light it only confirms that he not only can't be trusted but that he is a danger to the Stark family. I understand that they filmed a scene which did not end up in the final cut where Sansa consults Bran about LF and Bran uses his powers to 'see' LF as the audience have. This was cut so that it didn't spoil the 'How do you answer these charges .... Lord Baelish' scene. However all being said it was a very disappointing end to what had been a major character.
As for Jon Snow / Sand .. isn't there a scene in S1 where Catelyn Stark talks about Jon. I'm half sure she mentions how Ned came back with Baby Jon, said he was his son and refused to say anything else. He was probably called Snow because they were up North and without knowing exactly where he was born he was given the name for Northern bastards. Maybe that was in the books though ...
In regards to the disastrous trip to capture a wight which resulted in the death of Viserion I don't understand why Dany didn't attack the Night King when he was on his ledge. Also Jon's group were in viewing distance of the NK ... no one thought to bring a bow with some dragon glass arrows? The loss of Viserion makes me wonder where the show is going to with the whole ' the dragon has three heads' thing. Or why didn't Dany just swoop down and grab a wight ..
Also the appearance of Rhaegar was such an incredible disappointment. The actor did not do justice to the character at all. Hopefully if they show more of this story line they will get a different actor and a better wig.
Overall I think this was the worst season. It seems the focus was on getting all the characters together and getting the players in place for the final season but it could and should have been handled with much more finesse. There were simply too many moments where the audience was asked to suspend belief in regards to the timeline of events.
Oh and the use of the Golden Company will have to backfire on Cersei - they historically have connections to the Targaryens in the books. Even if that isn't brought up then Dany might be able to use her connection to Daario to get them onside.
QuoteWe'll have to agree to disagree but there are at least two people on this thread who don't think she ever really did consider siding with LF against Arya. At most she is tempted by the promise of more power and perhaps likes to imagine how far she could go if Jon and Arya weren't around. But I don't think there was ever a serious intention to betray the other Starks, no matter how clearly you seem to think this was shown. It was all a game. Some of us even said so at the time.
So, what you're saying is you agree with me that it was totally obvious what would happen all along and as a result was entirely lacking in tension and felt very drawn out over a whole season? ;)
QuoteOh and the use of the Golden Company will have to backfire on Cersei - they historically have connections to the Targaryens in the books. Even if that isn't brought up then Dany might be able to use her connection to Daario to get them onside.
Tbh I could see Daario being brought back - as a spurned suitor - as an enemy of Danaerys.
The TV show has played very fast and loose with all the sellsword companies (Daario leads the Stormcrows jn the books, not the Second Sons as in the TV show) and the Golden Company connection to the Targaeryens/Blackfyres has never been brought up in the TV show at all, so I don't think they're beholden to that part of the lore.
I don't think it was entirely obvious where the LF / Sansa story was going to go. I know I was expecting some twist on LF's part, some clever plan he was working on, but we never actually found out what he was up to. When the 'twist' did come it was hardly much of a twist, the Starks stick together, and made the whole story line very frustrating. It was bad writing, it would have been a better story if they showed how the Starks were manipulating LF instead of trying to make us think that Sansa would betray her family.
I can't see Daario as the spurned suitor myself, he's a mercenary and Danaerys is royalty. I think that Cersei will bring the Golden Company to Westeros and when they see the army of the dead they will switch sides.
I'm interested to see how the Iron Bank handle this, the Bank and the city of Braavos were founded by freed/escaped Valerian slaves, the Targaryens are descended from Valeria but Danaerys has freed slaves everywhere she's gone.
Maybe the problem with this season was that lacking source material the writers floundered a bit trying to get on the pieces on the board. The final season might benefit from picking up existing narratives in the text.
If the Iron Bank's about profit, it won't have any if an entire continent is dead, and other continents are also threatened by massive undead dragons. So it only makes sense for them to join the fight and reap the rewards of whatever comes afterwards. Cersei's ruthlessness means she's either going to somehow nonetheless win out, or go out in a blaze of glory. (Or get killed by her brother, I suppose.)
I'm still standing by my theory that [spoiler]whether the golden company is willing to fight or not, Euron is BSing Cersei and returning to the Iron Isles with the fleet rather than collecting the GC. At this point, no matter the army or the union in the south, the night King is looking more or less invincible.[/spoiler]
But it is Game of Thrones.
QuoteI was expecting some twist on LF's part, some clever plan he was working on, but we never actually found out what he was up to. When the 'twist' did come it was hardly much of a twist, the Starks stick together, and made the whole story line very frustrating. It was bad writing, it would have been a better story if they showed how the Starks were manipulating LF instead of trying to make us think that Sansa would betray her family.
Yeah, my thoughts exactly.
I just didn't get what Littlefinger stood to gain, either by marrying Sansa to the Boltons in the first place (again, why jeopardise his good standing with the Lannisters?) or by hanging around in Winterfell with no clear objective.
It's a shame. LF - in both the books and the first four seasons of the show (more or less) - is a fascinating character, always three steps ahead of every other player. In fact, one of the greatest twists in the whole saga is the moment he murders Lysa Arryn and the sheer scale of his true plot and purpose is revealed, and we finally understand that he isn't merely a petty schemer in the Great Game, he's the chief architect of the entire civil war and most of the events we've seen play out up to this point, and potentially
the key non-supernatural villain (or antihero) in the entire series.
The TV show has, in the last few seasons, made him appear to be at best a Joker type figure, playing every side against one another with the only real apparent goal being chaos for its own sake, and at worst a bumbling idiot and a truly terrible judge of character who got what he deserved.
Wouldn't a better fate for him, dramatically speaking, have been on the eve of his triumph and all of his grand schemes paying off, to have him completely go to pieces and to have his grand plans crumble because of the arrival of the White Walkers and/or Dany's dragons - forces totally beyond his comprehension or ability to predict or manipulate? I suspect this is how his storyline might play out in the books.
Agree with all that - LF is supposedly able to read people to such a degree he has been able to manipulate his way to near ultimate power, yet couldn't sense that Sansa and Arya conflict stank to high heaven as "off".
QuoteLF is supposedly able to read people to such a degree he has been able to manipulate his way to near ultimate power, yet couldn't sense that Sansa and Arya conflict stank to high heaven as "off"
...and also somehow didn't suspect that the son of Roose Bolton - a notoriously cold and cruel man who breaks oaths and guest rights left and right and happily murdered his own king at his wedding feast - might be a bit of a bad egg....
I think LF deserved a better end than he got. However with only one season left and the focus turning towards the battle between the living and the dead maybe the writers just didn't have the time to write a decent story to get rid of him. It would have been marvellous if the Starks had used Bran to find out everything he had gotten up to and for the audience to see the net close around him while he continued to play his little games unaware of the gravitas of his situation. In effect treat him the way he had treated so many others .. Ned, Catelyn, Sansa etc
He is *the* most important character the books because he is the root cause of it all.
LF had to have known about Ramsey so what was it all for ... we'll never find out now as they are unlikely to incude it in a Bran flashback. I really hope for tighter storylines in future.