The Political Thread

[Old Tankie]

Okay, there's two days to go, I'm going to make a prediction!  No - 54%  Yes - 46%.  I think the combined assaults of Project Fear and Project Bribe will, in the end, be enough for a No vote.  I really hope I'm wrong!

The idea that a country like Scotland with its brilliant engineers, inventors, artists, designers, businessmen,  etc., etc., couldn't stand on its own is nonsense.  And that's from an Englishman! 

[Banners]

The idea that a country like Scotland with its brilliant engineers, inventors, artists, designers, businessmen,  etc., etc., couldn't stand on its own is nonsense.  And that's from an Englishman!

But were they brilliant because they were Scottish, or British?

[Old Tankie]

Well, that's what they're about to decide!

[Dudley]

The idea that a country like Scotland with its brilliant engineers, inventors, artists, designers, businessmen,  etc., etc., couldn't stand on its own is nonsense.  And that's from an Englishman!

Yes, clearly the poorer nations of the world are simply genetically inferior and unable to produce brilliant engineers, inventors, artists, designers, businessmen,  etc., etc.

[JPMaybe]

The idea that a country like Scotland with its brilliant engineers, inventors, artists, designers, businessmen,  etc., etc., couldn't stand on its own is nonsense.  And that's from an Englishman!

Yes, clearly the poorer nations of the world are simply genetically inferior and unable to produce brilliant engineers, inventors, artists, designers, businessmen,  etc., etc.

Eh? Where in OT's post was there any insinuation of believing Scots to be racially superior as opposed to, say, having benefitted from a first world education system and infrastructure? I object to a lot of Tankie's views but this was scurrilous libel on your part.

[Old Tankie]

What the f**k were you implying by that post, Dudley?  I believe all nations should be self-governing!

Thanks, JPMaybe.  At least you got my meaning.

[Dudley]

Eh? Where in OT's post was there any insinuation of believing Scots to be racially superior as opposed to, say, having benefitted from a first world education system and infrastructure? I object to a lot of Tankie's views but this was scurrilous libel on your part.

Eh, I misunderstood.  Apologies. 

[JamesC]

So Phones 4 U has gone down the swanny. Looks like there'll be a lot of empty units on the high street again.

I went in there once and some idiot tried to pressure sell to me, which resulted in me buggering off never to return.

[Modern Panther]

Nope...Spanish PMs position seems to be that Scotland would be a new state, and have to apply as such, taking a few years. Thing is, he doesn't get to decide what laws apply. EU president says Scotland wouldnt be a new member state and that the application would be much faster.
Spanish PM could vote against Scotland membership, but has suggested he won't.

Google Bang!

Good luck building that wall.

[Richmond Clements]

And of course the Spainish have no vested interest in discouraging wayward states from trying for indepenence...

[Tiplodocus]

Wouldn't the cost of anything other than a currency union mean that rUK business leaders will be pretty sharpish in insisting we have one?

[Dudley]

Nope...Spanish PMs position seems to be that Scotland would be a new state, and have to apply as such, taking a few years. Thing is, he doesn't get to decide what laws apply. EU president says Scotland wouldnt be a new member state and that the application would be much faster.
Spanish PM could vote against Scotland membership, but has suggested he won't.

Google Bang!

Good luck building that wall.

Juncker simply said that Scotland would be treated as a special case and not included in the terms of the freeze on new members.  He has made no commitment on the crucial question of Scotland being forced to join the Euro, which would be as much of a disaster as it's been for everyone except Germany.  Representatives of several European countries (MEPs and national reps) have made it quite clear that euro membership and Schengen are preconditions for negotiation. 

[Dandontdare]

Nicola Sturgeon today:

"If we have our hands on the levers of economic decision-making, if we have access to our own resources, then we are able to design an economic policy to suit our needs.

But surely without their own currency, they WON'T have their hands on those levers - even less than they do now.

I read one commentator that thought Salmond has really shot himself in the foot with the the way he's handled the whole currency question - if he'd said from the outset "we'll have a Scottish pound, pegged to the British pound" it would never have become such a decisive issue, but his reluctance to give a plan B (and then to give three), and his insistence that Westminster and the BoE will simply change it's mind after a Yes vote, have simply been a gift to the BT campaign.

[Modern Panther]

The rules over who can, must, or can't join the Euro are, at best, labyrinthian.  Certain aspects of thelaw say any new states must join the Euro at some point, others that it is entirely voluntary. There is no precedent for part of an existing EU state to become a new EU state. The Yes campaign have said that Scotland would not have problems. The No campaign have said Scotland would be beset with insurmountable problems. The truth is probably somewhere in the middle.  Just because it might be difficult doesn't make it worthwhile.

As for control over "economic decision making", the BoE sets interest rates as an independen body, and has done since Brown was chancellor. Doesnt that mean that Westminster doesn't have control of their levers either? An independent Scotland wouldn't  have control over its central bank. A non independent Scotland wouldnt either.

There was a Plan B since the SNP published its whitepaper. They didn't publicize it because you don't go into negotiations letting everyone know about your backup plan.

[Dog Deever]

On top of that, that's only the SNP's plan- if they don't get voted in at the first general election of an independent Scottish Parliament then, obviously, their plans are oot the windae straight off the bat.  Solidarity wants our own money (so do I), wants rid of the Queen and Civil list (so do I) and a new Nationalised Bank out of the hands of the corporate stranglehold. Clearly- a different proposal to the SNP. I'm sure there will be Yes Campaigners who want closer ties with Europe and the adoption of the Euro- dunno who those maddies are.
No-one knows what the Labour Party, Conservatives and Liberals plans will be and if you're waiting to hear them, don't hold your breath- that would be suicidal for them. If they released a 'what if' proposal and the Scottish electorate decided they liked those ideas better than what they offer as a Westminster British party- they will lose their own voters to 'Yes'. Not to mention the (righteous) indignation of rUK voters when they say 'how come the same party offers this to the jocks and not to us?' The rift would cause the break up of the British mainstream parties anyway. They CANNOT do that.
The fact remains - this debate is not about fiscal policies etc, it cannot be because not everyone is in a position to  clearly state their case until the referendum is won/ lost.

The debate is simply this- Are we CAPABLE of governing our own affairs or do we need Westminster to do it for us? The shape of that government will be campaigned for over the following year by PARTIES, and THEN will be the time for these discussions about the exact nature of independence- determined by a democratically elected gvt. AT THIS TIME, these arguments are a side-show distraction from the immediate question.